Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Druggedfox]

I'd never read any of your terrible posts

 

[omgwtfToph]

I read everything kirbykaze posts twice just so I don't miss anything.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

FOUR

KK, I LOVE YOU.

Seriously. You're so cute.

(And you're Canadian.)

Smooth Criminal

 

[L__]

I want kk's info

 

[EWC]

I have never learned anything I didn't already know from one of KK's posts. I still read them all though just for the literary quality.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'd read KK's posts. Sometimes I learn stuff.

 

[Palpi]

KK is the messiah.

 

[Meljin]

Question about fox ;
I try to Shine-Grab everytime I can, when the opponent is in the shield.

I was approaching a Marth that shielded with a shffl'nair, shinegrab, but he dodged between the shine & the grab.
Is it an error that I done ?

Thanks for the help !

 

[omgwtfToph]

No, it's always possible to sidestep in between the shine and the grab. But sidestepping in shield pressure isn't generally a good idea unless you know your opponent is going to shinegrab.

 

[Meljin]

Thanks. Sidestepping between these two moves requires some insane mindgame, so I'm not worrying about that answer. My opponent was in fact randomly trying to escape my shield pressure, I was really surprised.

 

[unknown522]

FOUR

KK, I LOVE YOU.

Seriously. You're so cute.

(And you're Canadian.)

Smooth Criminal

I want kk's info

you guys don't know what you're getting yourselves into <_<

 

[chillindude829]

while that mightve been random, i think people sidestepping between shine and grab is gonna get more and more common now that shine grabbing is becoming kinda standard, i know it happens in my matches somewhat often already

 

[unknown522]

I usually roll backwards if I think it's coming, but sidestep would get you a punish with some characters

 

[chillindude829]

yea when it happens its usually sheik/marth and followed immediately by a grab

 

[Pi]

KK makes a post and it's followed by like minimum 8 posts talking about what an amazing post it was lol

 

[leffen]

If they spotdodge your shinegrab you can still punish em if they try anything but grab and another spotdoge fyi (you have like 4 frames to shine before their grab iirc).

 

[0Room]

I should gather my informative amazing posts and put them in one thread. And watch it get ignored. Because nobody reads the stickies or the OP.

Lmao sound familiar?
I know your pain

It was a good post though

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they spotdodge your shinegrab you can still punish em if they try anything but grab and another spotdoge fyi (you have like 4 frames to shine before their grab iirc).

If you shine grab against sheik, fox, falco, mario, doc, and anyone else whose sidestep ends on frame 22, they can grab you before you can shine again. Anyone else can be shined first, I think. Assuming they try to grab.

Sheik and co. get a +6 or +7 (forget which) from sidestepping a non-staled shine > grab (tilts and/or d-smash are also viable options for most of these characters). Since the next fastest sidestep finishes on 27 (peach, etc.) they're only at +1 or +2 on it. This might not really matter for Peach and a few others though, 'cuz down smash is ridiculous and some characters have super fast jabs that are really good.

Characters with slow sidesteps (Falcon, etc.) you are actually at frame advantage against (I forget if they're -2 or -3 or what) but that's kind of lol. I think you can actually up smash Mewtwo if you time it well. Not that Mewtwo has any business sidestepping anything of Fox's, but it's kind of funny.

This (and Fox's shine pressure in general) changes a lot depending on how staled your shine is, though. If it's staled sufficiently, you're actually not at frame advantage from doing it (at max damage, Fox gets +1 or something from shine grab, then he breaks even, then he's actually at frame disadvantage for trying it).




I think for this reason (and several others), Fox's shine grab utility is more of a "I've conditioned the opponent to sit in shield during Fox pressure, let's grab him and give him a shake" type of deal rather than an "OMG FRAME ADVANTAGE" thing. It's not unbeatable and actually has a lot of weaknesses in it.

I think it's generally underutilized but given how clunky it actually is, I'm not too surprised about its low usage either.




on paper, fox is actually the character whose shield pressure game is MOST affected by staling.

 

[Strong Badam]

you guys don't know what you're getting yourselves into <_<

getting myself into david mmhmm

 

[Wake]

getting myself into david mmhmm

hahaha oh Strong Bad... you silly silly guy you.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

I thought of this this morning, but I forgot to ask, so I'll do it now.

Yesterday, a mediocre Marth knocked me out of a tournament (I am mediocre as well though!), and I believe I should have beaten him. There are very few decent Marths around here, so had almost no practice at all. I think what I really let him do too often, was recover.

What I'm asking is, how do I edgeguard? What are great things to do? The hardest being him recovering low quickly, sweetspotting the edge. I can't do that light shield thing in time half of the time, I'd be rolling and he already has the edge then. I tried to Forward-Smash, hoping he'd go just right above the edge, but he kept hitting me with the tip of the up-B.
Any tips of edgeguarding Marth other than the light-shield edgehog trick? Any tips vs Marth in general in fact are appreciated!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Grab the edge with your jump. Try to avoid his up+B hitbox by going behind it.

If you can, grab the edge with your WD and do any of shine, invincible ledgehop bair (or nair, if you find it easier), or let him land onstage and then do some cool combo or whatever (refrain from up smashing unless it will kill, there's always something better for comboing).

You can also run --> block --> shine OOS if he's slightly off with his sweetspot. Just release the dash button before you get to the edge so you don't slide off.

Falling on top of the edge with bair will also work if his sweetspot is slightly off.

Dair is another interesting option because after hitting one, you can 50/50 between two things most of the time and get a decent result:
A) immediately block - sometimes they'll up+B impefectly out of panic and then you shine OOS, bair, u-throw, u-smash, or whatever else seems appropriate. I think SHFFL uair --> uair is a decent trick in this situation vs Marth because it kills him at like 70% on a lot of levels and they usually hold in when they see Fox jump above them.
B) grab the edge with your jump - if you think they're gonna go low again, grab the edge with your jump and use his mobility to avoid the up+B hitbox so you don't get randomly swat away. WD doesn't work here unless you're super fast and it might not work even if you are fast. Depending on how you jump you might beat the panic up+B, but beware of jumping high trying to account for everything; longer air time gives him a better chance to sweetspot the edge before you.

You have a better chance of trading d-smash with his up+B than f-smash because of d-smash's speed and invincibility frame. Neither is reliable, though.

 

[Sizzle]

I was playing a Marth player that was better than me the other day and I kept finding myself getting ***** by utilt on the platforms. Once I'm in that spot I really don't know how to get out of it. It feels like I miss techs quite often against Marth especially and I'm not sure if its just a kind of panic feeling or what, but I feel like I can't really control anything once a grab combo starts.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Whatever you do, don't mash L/R when being combo'd on platforms.

Check to see if their footing is correct. A lot of Marths don't bother positioning themselves to cover as much as they can as quickly as they can when they get under the platforms. If you can spot this, on some levels (Dreamland, Battlefield) you can sometimes just roll in a direction or land immediately and cheat your way out of it. This absolutely fails if they're good, but sadly that's how most of Fox's combo breaks work.

 

[crush]

Kirbykaze how do you know so much about super smash brothers melee?

 

[Winston]

You can hold down and CC the utilt at very low percents,and then slightly higher than that you can hold down and tech. The timing is weird since you have to hit L/R before they utilt (and not have been hitting L/R anytime recently before that).

Uh.... other stuff involves DIing the utilt in the direction of the sword swing to try to get away. Sometimes this forces you offstage though (though if you DI hard enough you can avoid the direct spike). So pick your poison.

also there are probably ways to slide off the platform but I don't know them very well

 

[crush]

How do I escape roys autocombos?

 

[unknown522]

getting myself into david mmhmm

lol, he'd probably bend over

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

How do I escape roys autocombos?

You crouch cancel every approach he has, that's pure ****. Once you're in a combo, use DI to escape.

 

[crush]

You crouch cancel every approach he has, that's pure ****. Once you're in a combo, use DI to escape.

I was asking how to escape his autocombos >_>
you can't cc or di out of his u throw chain grabs+d tilt and utilt combos. I know there has to be an escape though.

 

[unknown522]

poor roy. He's so bad.

Just avoid his grab, and try get d-tilted

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol, he'd probably bend over

I'm not into younger guys.

 

[crush]

poor roy. He's so bad.

Just avoid his grab, and try get d-tilted

I wanna know how to ESCAPE his autocombos. When I get grabbed by a Roy im forced to ask them what they're banning because I know I can't win.

 

[Palpi]

DI down and away for his dtilt I think.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Well, they're autocombos for a reason, they're inescapable. The whole point is not to get grabbed. The only option is to have him miss the chaingrabs.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Would shield dropping aerials/grab be applicable if Marth was up tilting Fox on a platform, and Fox had his shield up?

 

[Wenbobular]

That's like one of the most obvious uses because Marth's uptilt isn't actually that fast <_< I'm pretty sure it was even put in the video whatshisface used to describe shield dropping applications

The best counter to Roy's autocombos is switching to Falcon and living to 200 every stock
I was hoping to play a real character when I heard I was playing HBK at No John's this weekend but instead I got his Roy

I played real bad but ... ****, it's mother****in' Roy
I tried my hardest to lose but I still didn't manage

But away DI should work (not that I'd know I guess)
Man Roy is terrible

 

[omgwtfToph]

KK, your talking about how stale the shine is affecting shieldstun reminded me of a question I had a while back: Does shieldstun have a direct relation with damage %?

I seem to remember this being the case, although it doesn't seem to account for some attacks that seem to have disproportionately long shieldstun (such as Jigglypuff's Pound).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The funny thing about melee is there are hardly any true auto combos and afaik they all revolve around grabs. Our metagame having so much SDI means that even shine combos aren't guaranteed.

The one reason I can actually see for wobbling being banned is that it breaks the rule of every other combo in the game regarding situational conditions. If you know what's coming you can DI to break the combo, and chaingrabs have limited duration. Even handoffs have a distance limit.

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK, your talking about how stale the shine is affecting shieldstun reminded me of a question I had a while back: Does shieldstun have a direct relation with damage %?

Yes. The formula for shield stun uses the attack's damage, so damage and shieldstun have a direct relationship.

I seem to remember this being the case, although it doesn't seem to account for some attacks that seem to have disproportionately long shieldstun (such as Jigglypuff's Pound).

I don't think Pound has disproportionate shield stun, but if you summon Strong Bad or Magus I'm sure they could tell you for sure.

Responses in bold.

Wobbling is cheap.