Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Kinzer]

He lost the next god **** week

We all have bad days, don't we?

Don't hurt me, it's just an honest question.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ive taken the time to read both arguments extensively and taken into account not only mine but the experience of many smashers of all levels when coming to my decision to vote the way that I voted. Regardless of the way that I voted, RDK's posts make me sick to think about people being so hard hearted and unswayable in their own beliefs that they wont even take the time to listen to or read the information given by somebody that merely has a different opinion on a matter than him. Wheter you are for or against the ban, having a mindset like RDKs coming into a matter liike this will do absolutely nothing productive in the context of this situation, nor any other situation even vaguely similar to it.

Being open minded while making a case for one side over the over will always be more condusive to a positive conclusion than mindlessly assuming that whoever disagrees with you is just dumb/wrong/stupid/ uninformed/etc.

 

[Divinokage]

What is with this crap. 1/4 of the posts are restating the initial arguments, 1/4 are bickering about the initial arguments(complete with repeatedly restating the initial arguments against the initial arguments >.>), 1/4 are spam, and 1/4 are people attacking others credibility. You are (mostly) pathetic. Vote on the poll, that should be enough right? It's not like repeating the same things over and over makes either argument more credible.

Maybe not, but it's good to speak your mind from time to time.. it takes away a burden.. and it's healthy.

 

[teh_spamerer]

My Pit did super good the first few months of the game

Incorrect. You got ***** at Rutgers events and whined to no end about how gay other characters were(Wolf's unpunishable forward smash, Falco's CG which doesn't work on Pit, etc.)

My Snake has done crazy stuff in the past and present (beat teh_spamerer 3-1 in a set, twostocking him twice, yeeeeeaaaaah).

You're still 2-7 with me. You got 2-0ed and 2 stocked twice the two sets before that in same matchup

I use Ganondorf the most in Melee.

And how often do you play that game again? Oh yeah...

 

[Palpi]

You'd be surprised the things people can do >.>

No, I have pretty much seen everything that has happened with anyone ever.

Incorrect. You got ***** at Rutgers events and whined to no end about how gay other characters were(Wolf's unpunishable forward smash, Falco's CG which doesn't work on Pit, etc.)



You're still 2-7 with me. You got 2-0ed and 2 stocked twice the two sets before that in same matchup



And how often do you play that game again? Oh yeah...

Whenever Inui talks about his past achievements... -----^ THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS.

 

[Kinzer]

Post.

You knocked me off as a bad player when I tried to explain why I felt MK shouldn't be banned you d***.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RaoQiuFBd8

Take a look at this vid. This is one of the best olimar mains in the world. Watch how he deals with MK. There are many ways to punish MK. All of his moves are punishable and this olimar even though he had 35-65 disadvantage made use of olimars options and which options defeat MK.

Is he ban worthy, no. The tournaments scene shows it more and more. Yes he is kind of cheap but not ban worthy as long as u know how to deal with him which is common at high levels of play.

 

[Maniclysane]

ITT: Pro ban is 1/2 hippies who think this thread matters, and 1/2 that think they're valiant knights who are coming to slay MK for justice.

Anti-ban uses the same argument that put Pro-ban down last time, but pro-ban complains that they're using the same arguments, instead of answering them.

 

[Atlus8]

(sigh) I can't believe this thread is still going on . . . we all know nothing is going to change!

 

[Sosuke]

olimar even though he had 35-65 disadvantage

sigh @ people

*leaves to take a shower*

 

[iRJi]

Again, who the hell are you? Nameless losers who haven't been present for the past three polls think they know things. It's actually kind of funny.

And Adumbrodeus, you of all people should know that pro-ban hasn't come up with any valid points. MK simply doesn't deserve to be banned. Until there is tangible proof that he does warrant it, the pro-ban side is going to be ignorantly stubborn. It's been the cycle of life for the past year and a half on Smashboards.

Sounds like you are semi trolling on an Inui status. To save time, what the hell does a current name in the community's eyes have anything to do with making a good statement. There are good statements that are brought up that gives reason why, and you are just to stubborn to look over them because you live in some world where you "think" that because people haven't appeared before in other threads, they have no voice. If in fact he didn't deserved to be banned, this discussion wouldn't even be happening, but the choice is unclear so it is why there is a thread about if we should do it or not. You saying that there are no good valid points for the pro side is just as empty as you not stating why he shouldn't be.

Troll less harder
Learn to go over the whole thread before commenting with idiocity statments
Learn how to voice your own opinion without being an A**hole.

 

[MasterDaveNo1]

Incorrect. You got ***** at Rutgers events and whined to no end about how gay other characters were(Wolf's unpunishable forward smash, Falco's CG which doesn't work on Pit, etc.)

inui and you or inui and atomsk won every single doubles event there right?

and what about this stuff?

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=492
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=528
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=715

You're still 2-7 with me. You got 2-0ed and 2 stocked twice the two sets before that in same matchup

start playing again

 

[Rykoshet]

We all have bad days, don't we?

Don't hurt me, it's just an honest question.

In their total number of tournaments facing off against eachother. Ally's lost to M2K In 4 sets. M2k's Lost to ally in what, 3? I could be off. Right now theyre 3-2 tournament wins in M2K's favor since the first time they've faced off. It's not like it was months since the last time they faced off, m2k lost one week then won the very next week. **** happens, stop acting like it's not just a back and forth between 2 obviously exceptional (understatement) players.

 

[Alus]

People who use the Classic Blue style deserve to be shot.

*gets shot*

(sigh) I can't believe this thread is still going on . . . we all know nothing is going to change!

Will you shut up? >(

Spoiler

<3

 

[Akashi]

Again, who the hell are you? Nameless losers who haven't been present for the past three polls think they know things. It's actually kind of funny.

And Adumbrodeus, you of all people should know that pro-ban hasn't come up with any valid points. MK simply doesn't deserve to be banned. Until there is tangible proof that he does warrant it, the pro-ban side is going to be ignorantly stubborn. It's been the cycle of life for the past year and a half on Smashboards.

I'm perfectly willing to look at tournament evidence of MK causing overcentralization. Now only if that existed.

Nah brah, I'm just stating that if you're going to call yourself logical, you should at least use.... you know, logic. I'm on your side (as in, I don't think MK should be banned), and like hell I'm going to read the last three threads. I'm talking to YOU, stop using Red Herring to deter yourself from being contradicted. You're being a ****ing idiot with your mindless counter-arguments, and everyone is calling you out on it.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

sigh @ people

*leaves to take a shower*

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[½NIÇK½FBM]

speaking of ally vs m2k when are evo vids going to be up. if they were recorde...............

 

[adumbrodeus]

And Adumbrodeus, you of all people should know that pro-ban hasn't come up with any valid points. MK simply doesn't deserve to be banned. Until there is tangible proof that he does warrant it, the pro-ban side is going to be ignorantly stubborn. It's been the cycle of life for the past year and a half on Smashboards.

I'm perfectly willing to look at tournament evidence of MK causing overcentralization. Now only if that existed.

You misunderstand.

Having a valid point (in other words, something worth considering) is different from saying that they actually shook the core issue.


Ryko's arguments are mostly built from pragmatic issues, and he knows his stuff. Unlike the randoms of the previous thread, most people are making valid points, but not points deconstructing the core argument.

And honestly, you need to cool down and at the very least, explain why the arguments are irrelevant instead of just ignoring people and saying "not relevant". Otherwise you look like a troll and turn off a lot of intelligent people.


Basically, I'm talking about the pragmatics of being in a debate with a lot of highly respected people, you gotta play the game at least a little otherwise people just ignore you.

Nah brah, I'm just stating that if you're going to call yourself logical, you should at least use.... you know, logic. I'm on your side (as in, I don't think MK should be banned), and like hell I'm going to read the last three threads. I'm talking to YOU, stop using Red Herring to deter yourself from being contradicted. You're being a ****ing idiot with your mindless counter-arguments, and everyone is calling you out on it.

Nah, he's really just being logical to a fault here.

He's dealing with this in terms of the general competative gaming ban criteria which so far, no proof has emerged that it's fulfilled. He posted the specific smash application of this (which can be found in my blog) a while back, but it got buried.

 

[½NIÇK½FBM]

Oh shi- its bob saget.


@bobsaget

**** you

 

[RDK]

Sounds like you are semi trolling on an Inui status.

For all intents and purposes, Inui isn't exactly a shining beacon of good judgment. A quick look at his current account status can tell you that.

To save time, what the hell does a current name in the community's eyes have anything to do with making a good statement. There are good statements that are brought up that gives reason why, and you are just to stubborn to look over them because you live in some world where you "think" that because people haven't appeared before in other threads, they have no voice.

Not too sure how many times I have to say this, but I have read the entire OP, as well as most of the pro-ban points in this thread. Once again, if you feel I've missed important tangible evidence, it would be good for your side to repost them.

If in fact he didn't deserved to be banned, this discussion wouldn't even be happening, but the choice is unclear so it is why there is a thread about if we should do it or not. You saying that there are no good valid points for the pro side is just as empty as you not stating why he shouldn't be.

The reason why he shouldn't be doesn't need to be asserted by me; it stands by itself. There's currently no evidence that he warrants a ban. He's innocent until proven guilty, just like the rest of the cast.

Do you even know how competitive fighting games work?

Learn to go over the whole thread before commenting with idiocity statments

"Idiocity statements"? Do I really need to go any further?

I hope everybody is seeing this.

 

[MarKO X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RaoQiuFBd8

Take a look at this vid. This is one of the best olimar mains in the world. Watch how he deals with MK. There are many ways to punish MK. All of his moves are punishable and this olimar even though he had 35-65 disadvantage made use of olimars options and which options defeat MK.

Is he ban worthy, no. The tournaments scene shows it more and more. Yes he is kind of cheap but not ban worthy as long as u know how to deal with him which is common at high levels of play.

lol
i remember when i did this when i was a noob and thought that roy was better than marth.
i looked up this one video where roy ***** marth, said "HA! U LUUUUSE!" and called it a day.

let's see this olimar play tyrant. or dojo. or m2k. You know, the 3 MKs that no one but Ally could beat at Genesis.

 

[DFat2]

Lee%, arguably PR's Best player (or atleast one of the best), who mains MK voted for Ban. He doesn't attend that many tourney's, but when does participate, It's in the big ones (in PR).

"MK should be banned, or atleast for some time to see if there's a difference, because he breaks de counter pick sistem.
-Who do you Main?
-Olimar-say's Player A
-Who do you Main?
-Wario-say's Player B
-Who do you Main?
-Falco- say's Player C

The fact that I don't have a Counter gives me a big advantage, in the fact that, my worst Match Up is Even, lol. When a Wario makes a Mistake, it's curtains. When I make a Mistake, I take some damage and Dair out of anything else.

Snake is Broken, but he could be beat. "Hi I'm snake" - "Hi I'm Olimar, I have an advantage over you"/ "Hi I'm Metaknight"- "Hi I'm snake... I can go even with you?..."

I really wan't him to get banned just so there aren't any Johns when I win.

And I remember the Last tourney I went to *Teams Tourny*. Excel Zero mains Peach, Ling Ling mains DeDeDe. Zero, Ling, Lmax and Me went quadruple Metaknight.

There was a time where 30% of Puerto Rico players used MK, and the rest was divided amongst other characters. Now it's vice Versa.

I want him to get banned to see how well the players that use him out off fear do in tourney's "
I translated and posted it here. Placings:

Arcadia 2: http://www.smashpr.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32991&postcount=2
Metro Area Tourny: http://www.smashpr.com/forums/showpost.php?p=36233&postcount=1
Profund Tournament: http://www.smashpr.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34681&postcount=1

Just So there aren't any "nameles friends".

 

[MarKO X]

stuff

Puerto Ricans play to win.

and realize that we had international players come to Genesis and place pretty well. i think that despite not playing here in the US too often, they know a li'l something something about the game as well.

 

[Akashi]

Nah, he's really just being logical to a fault here.

He's dealing with this in terms of the general competative gaming ban criteria which so far, no proof has emerged that it's fulfilled. He posted the specific smash application of this (which can be found in my blog) a while back, but it got buried.

If you have to constantly correct people after everytime he posts, then he's not being clear. Either that or you're his babysitter apparently.

 

[iRJi]

For all intents and purposes, Inui isn't exactly a shining beacon of good judgment. A quick look at his current account status can tell you that.



Not too sure how many times I have to say this, but I have read the entire OP, as well as most of the pro-ban points in this thread. Once again, if you feel I've missed important tangible evidence, it would be good for your side to repost them.



The reason why he shouldn't be doesn't need to be asserted by me; it stands by itself. There's currently no evidence that he warrants a ban. He's innocent until proven guilty, just like the rest of the cast.

Do you even know how competitive fighting games work?



"Idiocity statements"? Do I really need to go any further?

I hope everybody is seeing this.

Idiocity sounds cool, so i use it =D

 

[Palpi]

Praxis said in his post that the only other snake in top 10 at Genesis was Ultimate Razor, but genesis had all but 1 top notch mk right?

2-3 top snakes were not at Genesis.

Doesn't really mean much, just throwing it out there

 

[Rykoshet]

The top placing one only faced one MK, the other lost to 2MKs on the way to what, 7th, 9th?

 

[Palpi]

Razer got 9th yeah.

There should a be a tourney where everyone has to go to...by law.

Regardless, the top placing one had to face the best MK. Who is to say that Afro-thundah or candy couldn't beat Dojo or tyrant. It has happened before. Rendering both statements almost useless; it isn't like getting 5th rather than 3rd or 7th rather than 9th makes a big difference

 

[da K.I.D.]

You knocked me off as a bad player when I tried to explain why I felt MK shouldn't be banned you d***.

but i read your post and responded to it

If you have to constantly correct people after everytime he posts, then he's not being clear. Either that or you're his babysitter apparently.

i agree. he needs to stop

 

[RDK]

Idiocity sounds cool, so i use it =D

Saying "idiocity" makes you sound like you didn't graduate grade school. It also makes everything else he said sound ridiculous.

Here's a quick rundown of the to-do-list Adumbrodeus came up with; it includes at least one of the ban criteria for broken characters (in this case, overcentralization). See, I'm making it easy for you guys! All you guys have to do is prove that MK breaks one of the ban criteria.

1. Make a better theoretical model for match-ups. The current one really doesn't suffice because it neglects to take into account human error as far as I've observed, possibly a great deal more. I've attempted to help with my thread on "Mindgames Potential", though we still need a concrete understanding of how often a player should fall victim to mindgames, and to what degree before it can be finished.

2. Using the new theoretical model, make accurate match-ups.

3. Illustrate based on the match-ups, that MK makes 50% of the cast +1 nonviable, independent of any other characters to ban, if this does not occur, MK is not banworthy.

4. Figure out a reasonable margin of error for tournament results to vary from the theoretical match-ups.

5. Illustrate that empirical results are the same as your match-ups would suggest or within the pre-determined margin of error. (Note this functions primarily as a self-check to make sure the theory is actually grounded in reality, aka we're not missing something). (The current Empirical Matchups thread is designed to do exactly that, so feel free to contributed)


So, if MK, based on Match-ups, renders 50%+1 or more of the cast nonviable, that makes him banworthy, fair enough.

 

[dextasmurf]

Incorrect. You got ***** at Rutgers events and whined to no end about how gay other characters were(Wolf's unpunishable forward smash, Falco's CG which doesn't work on Pit, etc.)



You're still 2-7 with me. You got 2-0ed and 2 stocked twice the two sets before that in same matchup



And how often do you play that game again? Oh yeah...

AHHH falco can Chain grab Pit..... just thought Id point that out for ya

 

[BOB SAGET!]

lol
i remember when i did this when i was a noob and thought that roy was better than marth.
i looked up this one video where roy ***** marth, said "HA! U LUUUUSE!" and called it a day.

let's see this olimar play tyrant. or dojo. or m2k. You know, the 3 MKs that no one but Ally could beat at Genesis.

I did not say olimar was better than MK and i didnt imply that. What i meant was MK can be beat even when MK has a large advantage. Pro-bans dont seem to understand that it takes skill to win with MK. A lot of skill, if u say that the Olimar won because the MK sucked then this proves that u need to have some skill with him to do well. And basiclly what pro-bans imply is that MK mainers arent as good as their records in tournies prove. So according to this logic M2K is a scruby brawler and only wins tournaments because he mains MK. If u someone says otherwise then MK mains need skill to suceed with him. Now i know most pro-bans dont say that MK requires no skill. But if he is ban worthy and unbalances the metagame. How much skill does the player really need to suceed with MK?

 

[Kinzer]

but i read your post and responded to it

By processing to call me off as a bad player.

I'm going to sleep, if you're going to go any further with this be sure to somehow make it so that I can come back to it.

Zzzzz....

 

[MarKO X]

Razer got 9th yeah.

There should a be a tourney where everyone has to go to...by law.

That would be hot.
I would so go sonic marth snake metaknight tabuu.

Yeah, that way, you'll see that metaknight is not broken.

 

[DFat2]

Puerto Ricans play to win.

and realize that we had international players come to Genesis and place pretty well. i think that despite not playing here in the US too often, they know a li'l something something about the game as well.

We know a bit more than a Little, but yeah, we do .

Play to Win gets annoying some times when you See 4 MK's in Grand Finals :/

And what Lee said is a Valid point. His Worst match up is Even . . . .

 

['V']

Smash sucks.

 

[RDK]

Oh, and Akashi:

If you have to constantly correct people after everytime he posts, then he's not being clear. Either that or you're his babysitter apparently.

Apparently he's your babysitter if you're not intelligent enough to get what I'm saying the first time. I even dumbed it down for you with the above part of my previous post. I'd like to see pro-ban present some actual evidence now, if you guys are done engaging in ad-hominem. But I guess that's normal when you don't have any substance to your view.

 

[iRJi]

Saying "idiocity" makes you sound like you didn't graduate grade school. It also makes everything else he said sound ridiculous.

Here's a quick rundown of the to-do-list Adumbrodeus came up with; it includes at least one of the ban criteria for broken characters (in this case, overcentralization). See, I'm making it easy for you guys! All you guys have to do is prove that MK breaks one of the ban criteria.

Yes, I know. I am sorry =[. I like the way it rolls of the tounge though, when you pronounce it as Idi-o-City, instead of Idiocy. lolol

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you have to constantly correct people after everytime he posts, then he's not being clear. Either that or you're his babysitter apparently.

It's actually more "assuming people paid attention to certain things" then anything else.


As I said, he dealt with many of the ban threads, and part of what came out of the last one was a complete and concrete understanding of what the smash community needs to do to prove MK is bannable under the sirlin standard.


He's referencing to that implicitly and the fact that nobody knows this is partially what frustrates him.


Honestly, it should be part of the front page, on tactical it emerged as the most important anti-ban argument last thread.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I think MK should be banned because Sakurai doesn't deserve the satisfaction of having one of his own characters being dominant.

That biased, tripping punk.