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For smash 4 to succeed, we need to change

mimgrim

Smash Hero
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Seeing Melee being played is not the same thing as experiencing it.
Oh really? How so? Even if I had experienced it I would have still seen that it is far more technical based the Braw, and that doesn't suite me. The ONLY difference is that I could get to play against them and get my azz handed to me due to not being good at the technicla aspect when it comes to all those combos I saw and before you get onto me about them being easy to preform, I actually tried to in training mode and was unable to execute them becuase I am unable to press so many different buttons in such a short amount of time and was unable to. ._.
 

StarshipGroove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
488
before you get onto me about them being easy to preform, I actually tried to in training mode and was unable to execute them becuase I am unable to press so many different buttons in such a short amount of time and was unable to. ._.
They're not easy. I can only l-cancel and wavedash really. I think L-canceling is a pointless skill barrier too. But I'm looking at the strategic aspect of it too.
Some characters in Melee don't need excessive tech skill but are still challenging and require intelligent play and good spacing.
I played mostly FFA, but having played some competitive 1vs1 I can appreciate how much skill and strategy is required in a Melee match.

Anyways wasn't this thread supposed to be about SSB4?
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
570
I've watched videos of competitive Melee, as I was curious about that scene since I started seeing all these discussion. To much technical stuff for me, and I don't mean L-cancle or Wave Dash as if I had known about that a long time ago I probably would have tried those 2 things out since they seem simpler then performing long *** combos, and I'm just not good at preforming all thos long combos, and believe me i actually have tried. It just is not my cup of tea. Is that so hard to understand? >_>
I've seen people play competitive Melee at what was ironically a Brawl tournament. (Few people who loved Melee decided to have their own tourney) I was IMMEDIATELY turned off. It was quite possibly one of the most boring things I'd ever seen. Now, before everyone jumps down my throat, this is entirely my opinion. I'm sure there's people out there who love the tourney scene, and good on 'em. Just saying, not everyone who loves Brawl is blind and has no idea what the competitive scene looks like. For some of us? It's the exact opposite of what we want.
As someone whose been playing the franchise from the beginning, I find these comments very unsettling. I guess some people really haven't experienced and/or do not quite understand what the entire series has to offer.

I actually tried to in training mode and was unable to execute them becuase I am unable to press so many different buttons in such a short amount of time and was unable to. ._.
Melee, like any Smash game, is very much rooted in intuition, timing, reactions, and reading your opponent. Training mode gets you pretty much nowhere. Linking a chain of attacks together is, for most characters, less about a rapid succession of button presses and more about developing a feel for the game.

Take the good old Darkrain Combo for instance. On the surface it probably looks like memorized sequence of inputs. The reality though is quite different. What you're watching is a spontaneous series of great DI reads that are then capitalized on by Darkrain's knowledge of the match-up and %s. That's why you hear the crowd going crazy.

Not to say Brawl is void of these kind of scenarios, but it is something a bit more prevalent in Melee.
 

mimgrim

Smash Hero
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Somewhere magical
As someone whose been playing the franchise from the beginning, I find these comments very unsettling. I guess some people really haven't experienced and/or do not quite understand what the entire series has to offer.


Melee, like any Smash game, is very much rooted in intuition, timing, reactions, and reading your opponent. Training mode gets you pretty much nowhere. Linking a chain of attacks together is, for most characters, less about a rapid succession of button presses and more about developing a feel for the game.

Take the good old Darkrain Combo for instance. On the surface it probably looks like memorized sequence of inputs. The reality though is quite different. What you're watching is a spontaneous series of great DI reads that are then capitalized on by Darkrain's knowledge of the match-up and %s. That's why you hear the crowd going crazy.

Not to say Brawl is void of these kind of scenarios, but it is something a bit more prevalent in Melee.
I'm not trying to say Melee doesn't have any of those things and if I implied that I apologize. What I was trying to get at was the Melee is far more combo based then Brawl, not that it lacked intuition, timing, reacting, and read the oppenent, and was more technical based, not that it didn't have strategy, and that I'm not so good when it comes to that. Another thing about Melee is that from what I have seen through videos is that once a person starts a combo on the opponent the opponent seems to never be able to get out of it, making the combo a always guaranteed, unless the person preforming the combo messes up which again is something I don't care for as I want to be able to have that chance to get out of a combo. But again I wasn't trying to imply the Melee lacked strategy or anything like that but that it was far more combo based and allot more technical then Brawl. And usually when it comes to combos and technical stuff in games I end up lacking in the department, aside from small bursts. Is that a bit more clear on what I was trying to say now? Sorry if I wan't clear the first time. >_<
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
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Good post. Though one thing to remember is that part of the reason people in the community say Brawl sucks is because it's not Melee. SSB4 will likely such because it's not Melee or "Too close to Brawl." I don't think Brawl rewards you any less. You still have to learn the game. The better player still wins. You still can study it and dissect it. It's just different and tries to remove the barriers and silly techniques most players don't want to deal with. While you make a good point, the issue is more with Melee worship than with Brawl.

This is an incorrect stereotype that many Brawl players have of Melee advocates. People who advocate Melee do so for actual reasons, not by blind faith. While it can sometimes be hard to discern the reasons in amongst all the political banter and trivial, nonsensical arguments that people throw at each other on the forums, the reasons are there. And they're good ones.

Also, Brawl does reward you less because the principle Brawl was designed on demands that it does just that. It had to if Sakurai wanted to create a game that didn't heavily favor the player who was more skilled than the other. Melee is more rewarding primarily because you are rewarded for the reactive choices you make from moment to moment within a match. Making the correct choice nets you significant gains, and it makes you feel good for having either practiced as a player to make that happen, or being experienced enough to know how to.

If I grab you with a character that doesn't have monotonous, brain dead chain grabs like Falco or Dedede, the worst that's going to happen assuming the character isn't at too high of a % is they're going to take some damage, be thrown, and then the situation resets itself. You might gain a good positioning advantage as well. But that's mostly it. If you manage to grab someone in Melee though, you're rewarded with high damaging combos. Getting grabbed, and not getting grabbed,actually matters in Melee. As do many things. Brawl is significantly more forgiving on almost all accounts, which makes it much more difficult to feel and be rewarded for making the correct decision and capitalizing on your opponents mistakes because they don't suffer the same level of repercussions.

It isn't about whether or not you have to learn the game in Brawls case. Its how much you have to (or don't have to) learn to stay on the same level of someone more skilled than you. It's not about how the better player still wins, its by how far of a margin do they win. It's not about whether or not you can study or dissect it, but how much relavent information there is for you to learn and grow as a player. Melee delivers far more than Brawl in all of these respects.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you 100% here. While I can sympathize why you would believe Melee promotists just blindly love it, that's not the reality.

I think it's impossible to actually get a game without any programming errors or bugs to be honest. The problem is wether or not if they are game breaking. And for my part if i have ever come across any bugs they were never game breaking. As for unintended compromising game mechanics, again it is almost impossible to have a game without those, espically fighters, programmers are only Hume. It again comes down to wethere it is game breaking. And the game breaking ones that are in Brawl are usually banned from competitive play if I am not mistaken. Melee probably had it's own programming errors and bug in it to and I am quite sure it had unintended game mechanics with some of them being compromising (and no I am not talking about L-cancling or wavedashing as I know L-cancling was made on purpose and that Wavedashing, while made unitnentonally, was left in there on purpose). Now I'm not trying to diss Melee or anything just trying to show that most games will have these kinds of things, sometimes moreso then others, but as long as it nothing game breaking (Like say the bug in Pandora's Tower, when you get to the last towers the game for some people will freeze up when they try to enter it, now that is game breaking). So even if a game has lots and lots of bug, as long as they are not game breaking they are not a problem. aAlright yea Tripping is annoying but hey it beings taken out in Smash4, so just deal with it if you can, I feel like its been whined about enough and is pointless to continue to bring up when it is getting fixed. As for character balance.... Any game that allows you to pick from a roster or whatever is going to have this issue. You will always have that one character that is considered the best character in the game, but at least MK is still beatablein competitive play as if I'm not mistaken a ZSS play defeated a MK player at soemthing called APEX which I presume is a big tourney thing (still new to the competitive scene of Brawl, sooo :/)
What I was trying to illustrate was that whether or not you look at the games code, or you look at the interactions or events within the game itself, a lot of it points to incredibly sloppy design. Honestly, I assume this is largely due to Sakurai not wanting to develop another Smash title (likely due to his resentment towards Melee's development), and being on a major time crunch. I'm not saying Melee is immaculate. I'm saying that it doesn't affect the overall experience and enjoyment of the player. Brawl's problems most certainly do.

You say it comes down to whether or not its gamebreaking, but there are many things in Brawl that are gamebreaking. Whether or not they can be dealt with by rules and regulations by a tournament organizer isn't the point. It's still an inherent problem, and shows what I'm talking about; Brawl was not designed properly. I'd also like to note that there isn't problems associated with trying to create rules to solve these issues either. Tournament organizers have had massive headaches trying to debate how to appropriately handle planking in tournament matches. Chain grabs and grab release mechanics skew match ups. You can argue that's not game breaking (or broken, as correctly termed), but it still creates a poor game. Why should I be allowed to grab someone and down throw them to the ledge as Falco for a free stock? Why does Pikachu get a free kill on Fox every grab he gets? Why can Marth infinitely grab Lucas and end it with a kill move? Why does Dedede have a downthrow that gives him free ledge guard positioning and heavy damage on most of the cast, while also having infinites on certain characters that we have to circumvent by rules?

What you're essentially saying is that as long as the matches are playable, its okay. And as a competitive player, that's a good mindset to have, as it keeps the onus on you to do what it takes to win. But from a game designers perspective, you can't think with that mentality, or you produce a poor product.

Now that I got that out of my system.

I do prefer Brawl of Melee, it plays smoother to me. The main reason I prefer over Melee though is that it is not as combo based or all about combors or combos aren't always guaranteed to happen. I've tried play the "traditonal" Fighters is because I am unable to execute the long *** combos that require you to press so many different buttons in such a short amount of time. Now I realize Melee combos are easier to preform but I still can't preform them good cause I can only press buttons so fast. And this is why I prefer Brawl, it is not as combo based, you aren't always guaranteed to land the combo and you can preform much short combos that don't require you to press several different buttons in a short amount time and be totally fine. It becomes less technical and more strategy, which yes I prefer. Now don't get me wrong, I ain't saying Melee is bad or anything, I still love Melee and have good memories of when I was able to play it with my friends, but Brawl suits me better due to me being unable to preform the combos that require so amny buttons pressed in a short amount of time. Now can you see why some people might prefer Brawl over Melee, even prefer it competivily wise though the competitive scene isn't as big?

Sorry but I felt like I had to get that out there. And again let me state I am not trying to bash Melee just trying to show why I, and maybe some other people, prefer Brawl over Melee, but I still think Melee is a great game.
People often mistake my criticism for purely a preference of Melee vs Brawl by conceptual design, when the majority of what I'm trying to point out is the actual quality of the make of the game. Another way of saying it is like saying that you have a preference towards a Hummer vs a Ferrari. They're two totally different vehicles, and that's fine. They do very different things despite serving roughly the same intent, but it comes down to preference at the end of the day. What I'm trying to illustrate is that the Ferrari in this case was made properly during its manufacturing state, while the Hummer came with scratches and dents and bolts missing on the rims.

If you look in to Balanced Brawl, that's an excellent example of a mod that tries to rectify the problems inherent in Brawl while actually keeping it close to Brawls intended design philosophy. If Brawl had been made with roughly the same quality of design as the finished product Balance Brawl had, I would have far less complaints because it would be much less about quality vs quality and more about apples vs oranges. You should check it out actually.

And none of this is flaming, in case it wasn't clear.
 

mimgrim

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What I was trying to illustrate was that whether or not you look at the games code, or you look at the interactions or events within the game itself, a lot of it points to incredibly sloppy design. Honestly, I assume this is largely due to Sakurai not wanting to develop another Smash title (likely due to his resentment towards Melee's development), and being on a major time crunch. I'm not saying Melee is immaculate. I'm saying that it doesn't affect the overall experience and enjoyment of the player. Brawl's problems most certainly do.

You say it comes down to whether or not its gamebreaking, but there are many things in Brawl that are gamebreaking. Whether or not they can be dealt with by rules and regulations by a tournament organizer isn't the point. It's still an inherent problem, and shows what I'm talking about; Brawl was not designed properly. I'd also like to note that there isn't problems associated with trying to create rules to solve these issues either. Tournament organizers have had massive headaches trying to debate how to appropriately handle planking in tournament matches. Chain grabs and grab release mechanics skew match ups. You can argue that's not game breaking (or broken, as correctly termed), but it still creates a poor game. Why should I be allowed to grab someone and down throw them to the ledge as Falco for a free stock? Why does Pikachu get a free kill on Fox every grab he gets? Why can Marth infinitely grab Lucas and end it with a kill move? Why does Dedede have a downthrow that gives him free ledge guard positioning and heavy damage on most of the cast, while also having infinites on certain characters that we have to circumvent by rules?

What you're essentially saying is that as long as the matches are playable, its okay. And as a competitive player, that's a good mindset to have, as it keeps the onus on you to do what it takes to win. But from a game designers perspective, you can't think with that mentality, or you produce a poor product.



People often mistake my criticism for purely a preference of Melee vs Brawl by conceptual design, when the majority of what I'm trying to point out is the actual quality of the make of the game. Another way of saying it is like saying that you have a preference towards a Hummer vs a Ferrari. They're two totally different vehicles, and that's fine. They do very different things despite serving roughly the same intent, but it comes down to preference at the end of the day. What I'm trying to illustrate is that the Ferrari in this case was made properly during its manufacturing state, while the Hummer came with scratches and dents and bolts missing on the rims.

If you look in to Balanced Brawl, that's an excellent example of a mod that tries to rectify the problems inherent in Brawl while actually keeping it close to Brawls intended design philosophy. If Brawl had been made with roughly the same quality of design as the finished product Balance Brawl had, I would have far less complaints because it would be much less about quality vs quality and more about apples vs oranges. You should check it out actually.

And none of this is flaming, in case it wasn't clear.
First thing I want to make clear, only my first paragraph was directed at your post, my second post wasn't directed to anyone really. I just wanted to try and explain why some people might prefer Brawl over Melee, like me.

Yes I don't see CGs as game breaking, but broken. I wasn't trying to say Brawl wasn't rushed as I know it was which probably affected its development allot more then other games. I just wanted to point out that other games also have bugs and the like, heck I would be beyond surprised to find a game that doesn't have a single bug in it.From what I know of (which probably isn't as much as most of the people here) and have seen, there hasn't been so much game breaking in Brawl, but that could also just be my opinion, but I'm not denying it isn't there as I know there are some game breakings bugs but that they are usually delt with, like Meta Knight's infinite cape glitch thing that is far more game breaking the CGs. You do have broken stuff but broken mechanics =/= game breaking most of the time, at least for me. Game breaking for is like the infinite cape glitch I pointed out or the Pandora's Tower bug I pointed out in my original post, that is game breaking to me. But I guess there a opinions on what is game breaking to.

I wasn't mistaking your criticism for a prefrence of Melee. It jsut seemed like to me you were puting all this hate on Brawl when other games have the same problem to some kind of extent, maybe not quite as bad and some are even worse, and was making it seem like other games don't have the problem. I just used Melee as an example of a game that also has problems, I also used Pandora's Tower to if you didn't notice that.
 

PHD

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
138
Why should I be allowed to grab someone and down throw them to the ledge as Falco for a free stock? Why does Pikachu get a free kill on Fox every grab he gets? Why can Marth infinitely grab Lucas and end it with a kill move? Why does Dedede have a downthrow that gives him free ledge guard positioning and heavy damage on most of the cast, while also having infinites on certain characters that we have to circumvent by rules?
A large part of the problem is that there are so few strong options in brawl, that some of these oversights, such as DDD's chain grab end up becoming dominating strategies for the character. People talk about being frustrated with the technical aspect of melee, but isn't it infinitely more frustrating to get beaten by one throw?
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
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We're talking about bugs and quality in fighting games and PSASBR hasn't been mentioned yet...

This has to be an alternate reality...

I mean, I know Melee and Brawl had their issues but we do also sometimes need to appreciate how much worse they COULD have been. I think sometimes on both sides, that why me overlook the flaws a game has because boy oh boy we don't want even worse, and if this quality standard gets us there, then we're happy. Which is honestly a bad standard to have.

We know perfection isn't possible, but asking to have LESS things to have to take out and worry about that could've been caught and fixed shouldn't be asking much. I mean, there were insane glitches PSAS had that we found moments into playing, any playtester could have caught. For some things like chain throws, it'd seem like those would be easier to catch and shouldn't be in unless some programming bug let it happen. In this regard, Brawl being held to a certain standard of quality compared to Melee would be completely acceptable.

Though I get the idea that we need to stop the animosity like the OP said. Look how many misconceptions people have had about the separate games they defend, things THEY didn't even know about one game or another. People on both sides (not all but some) ARE fighting blinding for the game they love while refusing to acknowledge the good parts of either game. Each smash game has provided a different experience, and each one fits certain players better. We should be grateful for having those options and not being force fed one way or another instead of being venomous about which option is better when personal preferences can provide different answers.
 

BSP

Smash Legend
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@Ulevo: if you think Falco's CG->Dair is a stock in 2013, you need to do more research on Brawl before you discuss it.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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@Ulevo: if you think Falco's CG->Dair is a stock in 2013, you need to do more research on Brawl before you discuss it.
I see it as problem even if it doesn't lead to stock. Why does he get to do that? At least in melee I'd be able to di and make the follow up more difficult.
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
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570
What I was trying to get at was the Melee is far more combo based then Brawl, not that it lacked intuition, timing, reacting, and read the oppenent, and was more technical based, not that it didn't have strategy, and that I'm not so good when it comes to that.
Melee can be a more technical game from a dexterity standpoint, especially if you're play as Fox or Falco. That said, charcters like say the Puff, Young Link, or Peach play at an entirely separate pace. You absolutely have the option of picking a character with a playstyle that better suits you.

Another thing about Melee is that from what I have seen through videos is that once a person starts a combo on the opponent the opponent seems to never be able to get out of it, making the combo a always guaranteed, unless the person preforming the combo messes up which again is something I don't care for as I want to be able to have that chance to get out of a combo.
This is precisely the misconception I was trying to address in my previous post.

There are not many guaranteed combos in Melee. Under the precise conditions that they exist, it's rare to be rewarded more than a single follow up. When you see someone get juggled in a long streak, it's most often a result of predictable DI.
 

Vkrm

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The same reason Sheik's down throw is so broken.
I main marth so I get my share of d throw bs from shiek. But even then I get to DI above to force a up tilt, f tilt, or upsmash. If I do that she can't just regrab for free. I honest don't know if there is anyone she can actually regrab continually is the same way falco does.
 

mimgrim

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Melee can be a more technical game from a dexterity standpoint, especially if you're play as Fox or Falco. That said, charcters like say the Puff, Young Link, or Peach play at an entirely separate pace. You absolutely have the option of picking a character with a playstyle that better suits you.


This is precisely the misconception I was trying to address in my previous post.

There are not many guaranteed combos in Melee. Under the precise conditions that they exist, it's rare to be rewarded more than a single follow up. When you see someone get juggled in a long streak, it's most often a result of predictable DI.
I actually I find it kinda funny how Fox is played competitivly compared to how I played with him against friends in Melee. He's so technical in competitive play that if I tried using him like that it would end up being pathetic. I've only played Melee casually but whenever I played Fox (Which was most of the time) I would just abuse his speed to confuse my friends and jsut do small bursts of damage here and there, if I bet if I tried doing that in a competitive enviorment of Melee it would get rofl stomped. But I'm getting side track, all of the competitive videos I have seen seem to say otherwise. But eh I see your point. But one other thing I have to say is that even though I see your valid points on Melee I also find Melee much hard to play now then I did before Brawl, Brawl just feels smoother to me and when ever I try to play Melee it jsut feels like I'm trying to play a.... What is the word I'm like for... cardboard box? I still find Melee fun I'm just use to how Brawl is now, espically since Brawl feels smoother to play for me. But I get your points and thank you for correcting me on what I misunderstood about Melee. :D
 

BSP

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Brawl just feels smoother to me and when ever I try to play Melee it jsut feels like I'm trying to play a.... What is the word I'm like for... cardboard box?
I feel like I'm trudging through molassas trying to control a bag of rocks.

I see it as problem even if it doesn't lead to stock. Why does he get to do that? At least in melee I'd be able to di and make the follow up more difficult.
Why can he do it? Sakurai left it in. IDK what was going through his head, but he did. In Melee, yes, you can/could DI the throw and make the followup more difficult. In Brawl, you have to deal with the threat and adjust your playstyle accordingly.

I feel that literally everybody who plays brawl exclusively never experienced melee in a competitive setting.
I've played with some competitive melee players, but Melee's engine just put me off. It feels like what I said above.
 

Morbi

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I feel like I'm trudging through molassas trying to control a bag of rocks.



Why can he do it? Sakurai left it in. IDK what was going through his head, but he did. In Melee, yes, you can/could DI the throw and make the followup more difficult. In Brawl, you have to deal with the threat and adjust your playstyle accordingly.
It is funny. When I play Brawl I feel like I am on the moon. Not trying to argue or anything, just saying that Brawl feels so Zero-G to me. :p
 

gantrain05

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i don't know how controlling your DI to make a followup attack just slightly more difficult is something that is good....i don't think simply grabbing a character should produce rewards as big as what you get in melee, its also the number one reason 64 is just not fun at a high level, you can get 0-death combos on just about every single character. i feel like actually having to read an opponents move to make your follow up takes more skill and opens more possibilities than grabbing someone from 0-80 and then edgeguarding...
 

Vkrm

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i don't know how controlling your DI to make a followup attack just slightly more difficult is something that is good....i don't think simply grabbing a character should produce rewards as big as what you get in melee, its also the number one reason 64 is just not fun at a high level, you can get 0-death combos on just about every single character. i feel like actually having to read an opponents move to make your follow up takes more skill and opens more possibilities than grabbing someone from 0-80 and then edgeguarding...

I'm sorry, which one one of our games has the inescapable changrabs, locks, and grab releases?

I've played with some competitive melee players, but Melee's engine just put me off. It feels like what I said above.
to be fair, you're probably used to brawl ironing out your mistakes with that 10 frames of buffer. Brawl is objectively the less responsive game. The made all directional control digital for the wii motes d pad and it lags 2 frames.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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It is funny. When I play Brawl I feel like I am on the moon. Not trying to argue or anything, just saying that Brawl feels so Zero-G to me. :p
You can stay off the edge for inordinate amounts of time. It took me a while to realize that I could fall all the way to the stage boundary and still recover using just my double jump.
 

otter

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I actually I find it kinda funny how Fox is played competitivly compared to how I played with him against friends in Melee. He's so technical in competitive play that if I tried using him like that it would end up being pathetic. I've only played Melee casually but whenever I played Fox (Which was most of the time) I would just abuse his speed to confuse my friends and jsut do small bursts of damage here and there, if I bet if I tried doing that in a competitive enviorment of Melee it would get rofl stomped. But I'm getting side track, all of the competitive videos I have seen seem to say otherwise. But eh I see your point. But one other thing I have to say is that even though I see your valid points on Melee I also find Melee much hard to play now then I did before Brawl, Brawl just feels smoother to me and when ever I try to play Melee it jsut feels like I'm trying to play a.... What is the word I'm like for... cardboard box? I still find Melee fun I'm just use to how Brawl is now, espically since Brawl feels smoother to play for me. But I get your points and thank you for correcting me on what I misunderstood about Melee. :D

You seem to acknowledge that you are bad at Smash, does playing Brawl really help you deny this? Do you really need to take power away from others to make yourself feel stronger?

Fighting games are a unique blend of execution and decision making, but the decision making itself is very shallow compared to more time tested games. Both aspects are needed to make a game that has a small chance of being timeless. If you don't think video games should have difficult mechanical techniques, why not just play Chess or Poker?
 

El Duderino

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But I'm getting side track, all of the competitive videos I have seen seem to say otherwise.
If you have a video in mind or care to find an example of what you are referring to, I'm sure plenty of people here would be happy to clarify for you what is going on.
 

mimgrim

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You seem to acknowledge that you are bad at Smash, does playing Brawl really help you deny this? Do you really need to take power away from others to make yourself feel stronger?

Fighting games are a unique blend of execution and decision making, but the decision making itself is very shallow compared to more time tested games. Both aspects are needed to make a game that has a small chance of being timeless. If you don't think video games should have difficult mechanical techniques, why not just play Chess or Poker?
Now you are just putting words into my mouth. I have never said anything of the sort. I have NOT said game should not have dofficult mechanics. And I don't really appreciate you putting words into my moguht. If you are gonna accuse me of saying something, do it bloody right at least. All I have is that when it comes to traditonal fighting I'm rather bad at them due to not being able to preform those long freaking azz combos and that they are more technical based then strategy based, though there still is strategy there it's just not as prevalent. And besides if you noticed through everything I said I never once said anything about a mechanic but not being able to do long combos good and combos are totally on the player to preform (Espicallys in Smash) and thus are not a mechanic. I even stated in previous posts that I have nothing against L-canceling or Wavedashing and even said that if I had known about them back when before Brawl was released I probably would have practiced with them for against my friends but I didn't know about them. So really stop putting bloody word into my mouth that I never once said and fack off. All I was trying to do was explain why some people might prefer Brawl than Melee with why I prefer Brawl over Melee without actually calling Melee a bad game, which it isn't. And I never said games should have difficult mechanics or difficult anything but jsut that when it comes to long combos, I fail in the regard. And though I never said so earlier I will admit the I am bad at Smash (even Brawl) on a Competitive level cause I am rather new to the competitive scene and am still learning how it works and watching videos and all that and have only been able to goto one Smashfest so far. Now let me state one last time. Don't put bloody words that I never spoke into my mouth, I hate it when people do that to me. And if you attempt to do it again just fack off instead of posting.

If you have a video in mind or care to find an example of what you are referring to, I'm sure plenty of people here would be happy to clarify for you what is going on.
You've already clarified everything for me actually. I understand much better now. thank you. :)
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
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@Ulevo: if you think Falco's CG->Dair is a stock in 2013, you need to do more research on Brawl before you discuss it.

I honestly don't care if its a guaranteed stock or not. I could be wrong, since I haven't played vanilla Brawl in literally years. The point made was the reward given by grabbing someone with Falco shouldn't be allowed, especially with how little risk Falco puts forth to execute it.
 

ScubaF_ingSteve

I eat stickers all the time, dude!
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We are we discussing melee vs brawl? Why does this ALWAYS happen? Stop it, all of you. I'm not trying to mini-mod, but really we can't have any multi page thread without it leading to melee vs brawl. We get it, both games have their flaws and one part of the community doesn't like the other game as much as they like theirs, get over it. Do what you want, don't try to get into pissing contests over apples and oranges. The whole point of this thread is to discuss how the community can change to allow new players to join so smash 4 has a good scene, you guys arguing melee vs brawl is the reason we have trouble gaining bigger communities.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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I disagree. Melee has trouble building a scene because its old and doesn't have online play. Brawl has the same problem because its dull and has a bunch of random **** that keeps player skill from determining the outcome 100% of the time.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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We are we discussing melee vs brawl? Why does this ALWAYS happen? Stop it, all of you. I'm not trying to mini-mod, but really we can't have any multi page thread without it leading to melee vs brawl. We get it, both games have their flaws and one part of the community doesn't like the other game as much as they like theirs, get over it. Do what you want, don't try to get into pissing contests over apples and oranges. The whole point of this thread is to discuss how the community can change to allow new players to join so smash 4 has a good scene, you guys arguing melee vs brawl is the reason we have trouble gaining bigger communities.
But this would just be denying the source of the problem. What are we supposed to do? Stand around and pretend nothing is wrong? Pretend we are one big happy family? If the community is to unite, it has to reconcile its differences. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away. The situation is very real: people on both sides really want nothing to do with each other, yet they are forced to cross paths because this forum covers all smash games. It's really not as cut-and-dry a solution as you're making it out to be. The Melee community and the Brawl community each have a vested interest in Smash 4 for wildly different reasons. So, it becomes a tug-of-war on what features in Smash 4 are "good" and which are "bad".

At least we can all agree that the removal of tripping is SOOOOO GOOOOOOD.
 

ScubaF_ingSteve

I eat stickers all the time, dude!
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But this would just be denying the source of the problem. What are we supposed to do? Stand around and pretend nothing is wrong? Pretend we are one big happy family? If the community is to unite, it has to reconcile its differences. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away. The situation is very real: people on both sides really want nothing to do with each other, yet they are forced to cross paths because this forum covers all smash games. It's really not as cut-and-dry a solution as you're making it out to be. The Melee community and the Brawl community each have a vested interest in Smash 4 for wildly different reasons. So, it becomes a tug-of-war on what features in Smash 4 are "good" and which are "bad".

At least we can all agree that the removal of tripping is SOOOOO GOOOOOOD.
But you're ignoring the fact that we can't choose what goes in the next game. We can't sit here and choose what goes into the game. I'm not saying for both sides to forsake their own preferences for buddy buddy talk. All I'm trying to say is every always is first to get into a melee v brawl fight. At the end of the day, we don't have to like the other game, but to discuss CONSTANTLY be at eachothers throats for the sheer fact that we don't like eachothers game is stupid. We don't have to pretend to like eachother, we don't have to pretend to like the other game if we don't, but there isn't a reason to fight over which game is better. Everyone has their own preference and no is right, they're each good in their own regard to their own player base, end of story. We have no control over smash 4 and we can't change the game by just sitting here and ******** at eachother.

The sake of this thread isn't to prove which features are better from each installment, all we are trying to do is make sure we don't keep getting into this argument once smash 4 comes out. If you like brawl/melee/64 whatever, it doesn't give you the right to march into a smash 4 discussion once they game comes out and ***** about certain features. That makes us as a community look bad and will make newer players less willing to join a fragmented community. I'm under the opinion that let people just join a community and play whatever game, if they learn about the other installments, whose to say they won't switch? Whose to say a smash 4 player doesn't come in, enjoys smash 4 but then sees melee and says "wow that's cool I want to play that." As a result melee grows. But the problem comes when smash 4 comes out and people jump here and start pointing out all the flaws and getting into another turf war, it makes us look so bad and it really harms all of us. I'm not saying we have to be buddy buddy, we each have our own opinions and there is a place to discuss which game's mechanics would be better for smash 4 as a whole. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter since we aren't in direct control of the game, and Sora+Namco-Bandai aren't catering solely to us. The last thing we need is another turf war deterring new players. The more we grow, the more of a voice we have, by constantly getting into fights over which game is better we aren't doing ourselves any favors.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
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People are gonna do what they want. If smash 4 doesn't meet your expectations are you gonna avoid discussing it?
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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But you're ignoring the fact that we can't choose what goes in the next game. We can't sit here and choose what goes into the game. I'm not saying for both sides to forsake their own preferences for buddy buddy talk. All I'm trying to say is every always is first to get into a melee v brawl fight. At the end of the day, we don't have to like the other game, but to discuss CONSTANTLY be at eachothers throats for the sheer fact that we don't like eachothers game is stupid. We don't have to pretend to like eachother, we don't have to pretend to like the other game if we don't, but there isn't a reason to fight over which game is better. Everyone has their own preference and no is right, they're each good in their own regard to their own player base, end of story. We have no control over smash 4 and we can't change the game by just sitting here and *****ing at eachother.

The sake of this thread isn't to prove which features are better from each installment, all we are trying to do is make sure we don't keep getting into this argument once smash 4 comes out. If you like brawl/melee/64 whatever, it doesn't give you the right to march into a smash 4 discussion once they game comes out and ***** about certain features. That makes us as a community look bad and will make newer players less willing to join a fragmented community. I'm under the opinion that let people just join a community and play whatever game, if they learn about the other installments, whose to say they won't switch? Whose to say a smash 4 player doesn't come in, enjoys smash 4 but then sees melee and says "wow that's cool I want to play that." As a result melee grows. But the problem comes when smash 4 comes out and people jump here and start pointing out all the flaws and getting into another turf war, it makes us look so bad and it really harms all of us. I'm not saying we have to be buddy buddy, we each have our own opinions and there is a place to discuss which game's mechanics would be better for smash 4 as a whole. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter since we aren't in direct control of the game, and Sora+Namco-Bandai aren't catering solely to us. The last thing we need is another turf war deterring new players. The more we grow, the more of a voice we have, by constantly getting into fights over which game is better we aren't doing ourselves any favors.
Well, yeah, we don't have any say in the design of Smash 4, but that won't stop anyone from providing editorial on the matter. The whole reason we're all so passionate is all the analysis we did in the first place. So, the analysis will continue with Smash 4, and it would certainly be nice if the community came together. However, the Melee v Brawl divide clearly indicates a difference of opinion on preferred design methodology.
 

ScubaF_ingSteve

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Well, yeah, we don't have any say in the design of Smash 4, but that won't stop anyone from providing editorial on the matter. The whole reason we're all so passionate is all the analysis we did in the first place. So, the analysis will continue with Smash 4, and it would certainly be nice if the community came together. However, the Melee v Brawl divide clearly indicates a difference of opinion on preferred design methodology.
I agree, but that doesn't mean we should derail into brawl v melee at every opportunity, given that we all have our own opinions and refrain from making it such a big deal like it has been in the past.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
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The thread should have ended at this post, and I say that as a Brawl player that would want Smash 4 to be Brawl 2 probably just as much as Melee players wanted Brawl to be Melee 2.

Things like low hitstun come down to taste. Things like CGs and tripping do not, they're just stupid. And unfortunately, we've grown used to them.
That makes me proud in a way, but I understand how Melee players don't want Sakurai to think he can get away with this kind of bull**** this time around.
 

gantrain05

Smash Master
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Mar 19, 2008
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A large part of the problem is that there are so few strong options in brawl, that some of these oversights, such as DDD's chain grab end up becoming dominating strategies for the character. People talk about being frustrated with the technical aspect of melee, but isn't it infinitely more frustrating to get beaten by one throw?
i believe there are plenty of situations where one grab in melee is a stock...
 

PHD

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
138
i believe there are plenty of situations where one grab in melee is a stock...
Isn't it a little weird to say that Brawl is more casual friendly than melee with these things in the game though? People like to point to the ATs in melee as a source of frustration for casual players, but in Brawl you barely have to put in any practice before you can completely dominate someone who isn't very good at the game with a walk-off chain grab or some grab release gimmick.
 

Senario

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
699
i believe there are plenty of situations where one grab in melee is a stock...
Hold on a second, I've played melee for a while and unless the player you are playing against is massively better than you one grab does not = a stock. Even when I played my brother's friends who are full casual they still manage to put some sort of a fight up. This does not happen on Marth (Ken combo can be avoided), Does not happen on Fox (People are not consistent enough with him to do that), Falco, shiek, and Captain falcon too. It requires a lot of reading/predicting what an enemy will do to take an entire stock from one grab unless the enemy was already at really high %. Which in that case most anything could have taken a stock, not just grabs. Forward Air's or smashes too.

I think the only one where this is a fair statement is maybe against Jigglypuff(rest OP) during certain %'s. But as far as I know most people I've played don't play her in melee because it is just a jerk move(jiggs is very easy to play) and Jiggs matches really aren't that interesting to watch. Loads of back air's loads of DI'ing to make jiggs never die and so on, in fact i think the most exciting but still jerkish moments for her is rest lol.
 

SmashCentralOfficial

Voice of SmashCentralOfficial
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984
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i believe there are plenty of situations where one grab in melee is a stock...
Hold on a second, I've played melee for a while and unless the player you are playing against is massively better than you one grab does not = a stock. Even when I played my brother's friends who are full casual they still manage to put some sort of a fight up.

I always wonder how these threads are still alive and then I realize there's either a personal argument going on, a melee vs brawl debate, or two people arguing about something that's an opinion rather than fact.

The statement, "i believe there are plenty of situations where one grab in melee is a stock", is factually true. If someone throws you off the ledge and you don't do anything, there's your stock. But if you're looking for a less silly example, I suppose you could easily end up in a grab-death combo depending on your skill level and your opponent's skill level. You could also get grabbed and nothing could happen. That's just how the game works aha.
 
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