For Glory mode was not made for the competitive community

[pickle962]

I'm not whining about the mode itself, I'm just whining about how the competitive community is whining about it because they assumed it was made specifically for them.

oh my bad!

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Do you always have to make sure you are "right"? I'm just saying I don't particularly care for it as it pertains to fighting games so it doesn't matter to me. =/

Great! Bravo, Champagne! High fives! Slow clap. you have won this "argument".

I'm not trying to be right I'm just illustrating my lack of understanding for your point of view as I don't see how it makes sense.

I'm not insulting you or trying to "win" anything, I'm just hoping you'll elaborate in a way that will help me understand your point of view after what I've stated, because I seek to understand. Calm down.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'd get into how FD is a more neutral and fair stage this time around than it was in the past due to the higher focus on having good ground games and lower focus on air games, but I took one look at this thread and decided nobody would listen.

 

[Servine]

I agree with the OP. I don't play Smash competitively that much, but I know friends who also don't play competitive who may be annoyed by items and gimmicky stages.
In the end, it doesn't really matter to whom each online mode caters to, what matters is our plan that everyone gets to play how they like.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd get into how FD is a more neutral and fair stage this time around than it was in the past due to the higher focus on having good ground games and lower focus on air games, but I took one look at this thread and decided nobody would listen.

I'd say it's more neutral because projectiles have been overall nerfed and chaingrabs are basically finished. But yes, these people won't listen.

 

[simpleglitch]

I never turned items off until about five years ago. None of my friends were particularly interested in fighting mono-a-mono either. Even with just two players we'd always turn on CPUs.

My usual group of friends turns on CPUs as well (if we don't have four people playing) as well. Though it is mainly because of the skill divide between all of us. Free for alls balance it out a little bit as the weaker players can team up on the stronger player(s). Though we will doe 1v1 on occasion between people with similar skill levels.

That being said I get flycatcher's point. For Glory mode isn't exclusively for the the tournament goers.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

If they were only going to pick one stage for For Glory for the sake of simplicity, Final Destination was the obvious choice. It's been stated that it was by far the most commonly chosen stage in Brawl's online and has been speculated to be the most neutral stage in Smash 4 due to the general projectile nerf. I'd rather have a single stage chosen for me by the mode so that I know exactly what I'm in for and then just get straight into a match. How would we choose between FD and Battlefield, anyway? Random, chosen by one player or chosen after a vote (random if tied)? It seems like it'd be messy to me. I like Battlefield and I like it for pro tournaments, but in For Glory, I'm happy that we've got FD only.

OP's point might not be abundantly clear, but I agree with the general idea. For Glory is not Sakurai's gift to pro players or his attempt at defining what pro tournaments should look like; it's simply an opportunity for players of all kinds to play the game in a more competitive (or "serious", or whatever other word you prefer) environment.

 

[RODO]

I've had the same thoughts as well. I was playing "for glory" years before I even knew people played the game competitively.

 

[Greda]

Uh, how am I hypocritical?

If the statement was: "For glory wasn't made for tournament goers" I'd say "Duh, thanks for making this obvious statement and waste of a topic." However that wasn't the statement. It was


That statement is simply wrong.

You don't have to love or feel some sort of connection to every smash player to be competitive, I'm not sure what you're even talking about with that one. It also doesn't matter if there are FIFTY competitive communities, "For Glory" was made for them. There's no way around this, stop trying, and stop taking offense that you may be a competitive player. It's ok. There's nothing wrong with it.

Oh, my. I had to stop reading the thread because something is obviously wrong here.

For one, yes, the mode For Glory was made for competitive players, but not for competitive players. The mode itself was made to cater to the crowd who wants to play Smash competitively. Naturally, some people want to play smash without items and seriously. There is nothing wrong with this. But, this mode wasn't made specifically for tournament players. Keep in mind, though, two things are getting mixed up. Hardcore tournament pros, and casual competitive players. Some people seem to be talking about one or the other. This mode was simply to play seriously, not for tournament status matches. Keep in mind this is called For Glory, not For EVO.

 

[StarLight42]

if you think "just some casuals" never once in their life played 1v1 no items then you are woefully misinformed.
actually that's how most casuals play.
we just don't to the extra research you all do and practice everyday to find new techniques to improve.

So you are admitting you are a casual and are against the competitive scene?

Knew it, you created this thread to offend competitive smashers.

 

[himemiya]

Plus the most balanced stage is not FD at all. It is battlefield. Even nintendo knows this.

I think you're thinking startervile.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Smash has always been played in two ways. For fun, and as a grudge match.

Everyone plays Smash for fun, competitively or not.

So you are admitting you are a casual and are against the competitive scene?

Knew it, you created this thread to offend competitive smashers.

Acadian has clearly done extensive research into how most casual Smash players play the game.

HA

 

[Tristan_win]

Which we've already covered in a wealth of topics has been modified (along with projectiles) so I can't possibly understand how that's still an argument.

Its still a strong argument because the game hasn't come out yet and we haven't even seen every character much less play them for hundreds of hours. Who's to say chain grabbing wont come back in one form or another?

 

[LeeYawshee]

When a casual wants to settle a grudge match, we pick Final Destination.
When a semi competitive wants to settle a grudge match, they pick Final Destination
When a full competitive wants to settle a grudge match, they ban a few stages, pick a starter, the loser picks the next stage, usually a counter-pick, that sort of stuff.

Most people that play Smash have a lot of fun with most of the stages, but the second **** goes down, it's no items and Final Destination.

And the fact is that we've all done it before we learned about the true competitive scene. We're all guilty of it at some point of our lives. It's not the way that is accepted in these forums but it is the casual/semi-casual way.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Its still a strong argument because the game hasn't come out yet and we haven't even seen every character much less play them for hundreds of hours. Who's to say chain grabbing wont come back in one form or another?

We've seen consistent (across multiple characters in the plentiful footage we have) increase in distance on throws, including input from higher tier players, the increase being so significant that grab chains are impossible.

Zero spoke extensively about the projectile nerfs for almost every character in the demo roster.

 

[JediLink]

Ser bird guy, I think you're overlooking a pretty important detail.

Smash has always been played in two ways. For fun, and as a grudge match.

Final Destination has always been the go to stage to settle a quarrel.

For Glory is one of the modes in the With Anybody category. How exactly do you intend to settle quarrels with randomly connected strangers? Not to mention the fact that it's not even necessarily 1v1 anyway; Sakurai said there's an option for 1v1. Everything that you say For Glory is for, it's really not for.

The way I see it, For Glory is a personal mode where you test your own skill in a fair environment, with random factors removed. That doesn't mean platforms removed too. That's just dumb.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Ser bird guy, I think you're overlooking a pretty important detail.

For Glory is one of the modes in the With Anybody category. How exactly do you intend to settle quarrels with randomly connected strangers? Not to mention the fact that it's not even necessarily 1v1 anyway; Sakurai said there's an option for 1v1. Everything that you say For Glory is for, it's really not for.

The way I see it, For Glory is a personal mode where you test your own skill in a fair environment, with random factors removed. That doesn't mean platforms removed too. That's just dumb.

Well, platforms are not in For Glory anyways so...

 

[Chimera]

Oh, my. I had to stop reading the thread because something is obviously wrong here.

For one, yes, the mode For Glory was made for competitive players, but not for competitive players.

Lol

The mode itself was made to cater to the crowd who wants to play Smash competitively.

Please continue agreeing with me.

Naturally, some people want to play smash without items and seriously. There is nothing wrong with this.

Yes.

But, this mode wasn't made specifically for tournament players.

This is so obvious, that I'm not sure why you're even saying it.

Keep in mind, though, two things are getting mixed up.

Not for me they aren't.

Hardcore tournament pros, and casual competitive players.

Who's mixing these up? They're both part of the competitive community.

Some people seem to be talking about one or the other.

Maybe the OP.

This mode was simply to play seriously, not for tournament status matches.

Obvious statement is obvious. Tournament matches happen at tournaments.

Keep in mind this is called For Glory, not For EVO.

Thank you for continuing to state the obvious. I said the mode is made for competitive players which, by definition, is the competitive community. As you've just spent a paragraph explaining exactly that, I think we agree that the OP is incorrect.

If you want to say the OP just used competitive community to describe "Melee-playing tournament frequenters" then I would say the OP should learn to be specific, and that the thread is a waste of time since we all know Sakurai didn't make a mode exclusively for people that frequently go to Melee tournaments. The OP wanted to be petty, so he posted a thread deriding competitive players.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Lol Please continue agreeing with me. Yes. This is so obvious, that I'm not sure why you're even saying it. Not for me they aren't. Who's mixing these up? They're both part of the competitive community. Maybe the OP. Obvious statement is obvious. Tournament matches happen at tournaments. Thank you for continuing to state the obvious. I said the mode is made for competitive players which, by definition, is the competitive community. As you've just spent a paragraph explaining exactly that, I think we agree that the OP is incorrect.

If you want to say the OP just used competitive community to describe "Melee-playing tournament frequenters" then I would say the OP should learn to be specific, and that the thread is a waste of time since we all know Sakurai didn't make a mode exclusively for people that frequently go to Melee tournaments. The OP wanted to be petty, so he posted a thread deriding competitive players.

There's a reason he's stating the obvious. Read just about every post in the thread - nobody is getting the obvious.

 

[MajorMajora]

Lol Please continue agreeing with me. Yes. This is so obvious, that I'm not sure why you're even saying it. Not for me they aren't. Who's mixing these up? They're both part of the competitive community. Maybe the OP. Obvious statement is obvious. Tournament matches happen at tournaments. Thank you for continuing to state the obvious. I said the mode is made for competitive players which, by definition, is the competitive community. As you've just spent a paragraph explaining exactly that, I think we agree that the OP is incorrect.

If you want to say the OP just used competitive community to describe "Melee-playing tournament frequenters" then I would say the OP should learn to be specific, and that the thread is a waste of time since we all know Sakurai didn't make a mode exclusively for people that frequently go to Melee tournaments. The OP wanted to be petty, so he posted a thread deriding competitive players.

One thing I'm confused about in this argument is that you seem to think anyone who plays competitively can be considered to be part of a "community" that is singular and has similar desires. Competitively simply means "To win". Sometimes I want to play without any items or stage hazards acting as random factors. That does not mean I am somehow part of the same community of people that play smash tourney for money? Does that mean my desires are the same as their's and we can be considered one, singular "Competitive community"?

That's the flaw with what you're saying that we are trying to point out. Players who play competitively are not equivalent to the "Competitive community" as most people refer to it, because the community most people call "The Competitive Community" is the professional community.

 

[Terotrous]

People are upset this mode exists?

The only thing I'm upset about is that it's FD only. It should be FD / Town and City / Battlefield at the very least.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Final Destination has always been the go to stage to settle a quarrel.
64 had many options, but there was never a stage that had the same effect as Final Destination did when it was finally playable in Melee.
It is the most fair and basic stage. It's a straight line.
And now we have the option of enjoying the Final Destination stage in other Nintendo universes.

Plus the most balanced stage is not FD at all. It is battlefield. Even nintendo knows this.

WOAH WOAH WOAH! Both of these statements are incorrect, and I'm big on stages and fairness enough to explain why:

Each matchup of the game actually has a stage that is the most fair for both sides to play on, not simply one stage. FD with no platforms can cause issues for some characters as well as Battlefield can cause issues by being static and having platforms. Neither are 100% balanced and fair for each matchup or fight in smashbros.

The only way to find a stage that is 100% fair is to find the stage within the median bias for both characters, presumably by allowing players to each strike one stage one at a time from the entire stagelist until they come to the stage that best represents the matchup for both of them.

Now doing that at a tournament or online would take ages with so many stages, so probably doing this based on all legal stages would be smart (though obviously Nintendo isn't going to do something like that).

So, neither stage is the most balanced.

TLDR: In short, unless Nintendo added in a bunch off stages and a special way to select them to make sure players reached the median bias of the stages for their characters there would not be a perfect stage. They chose Final Destination to keeps things simple and based it off of knowledge they had from a previous game.

 

[One Handed Sword]

Glory = Honor,praise and distinction by common consent.

For glory = You fight for honor,praise and distinction by common consent.

You fight in a stage that's a straight line so platforms Can not be used as an excuse. It's a 1v1 where you can not blame your loss on a 3rd or 4th player.

This mode is as competitive as it gets. Like chimera says if you deny for glory is not competitive then you may just as well be Fighting the English language itself. Anyone with a different opinion may show it and I may or may not agree.

 

[DahremRuhar]

I want to throw an insane concept into the mix here. Just try to keep up. Particularly you, OP.

It literally doesn't matter.

Let me repeat: It. Does. Not. Matter. Who. The. Mode. Was. Made. For.


This thread really serves no purpose other than to argue semantics, and who is better at reading Sakurai's mind.
Have fun kids.

 

[JediLink]

You fight in a stage that's a straight line so platforms Can not be used as an excuse.

Yeah, uh, this is dumb. At that point you might as well make the stage grey too so that bright colours can't be used as an excuse.

It's a 1v1 where you can not blame your loss on a 3rd or 4th player.

For Glory is not 1v1! Sakurai said there's an option for 1v1! Why does everyone keep forgetting this?

 

[Saikyoshi]

Yeah, uh, this is dumb. At that point you might as well make the stage grey too so that bright colours can't be used as an excuse.

For Glory is not 1v1! Sakurai said there's an option for 1v1! Why does everyone keep forgetting this?

Because with the 1v1 option, hardly anyone will choose anything else?

 

[JediLink]

Because with the 1v1 option, hardly anyone will choose anything else?

But if we're talking about what Sakurai's intentions are here, the fact that there's an option is kind of important.

 

[Saikyoshi]

But if we're talking about what Sakurai's intentions are here, the fact that there's an option is kind of important.

We CAN choose Temple in tournaments if both players agree on it. It's legal to do that. But do we?

Options mean nothing if the other option is something people don't choose.

 

[ChikoLad]

The problem with the statement "It's not for the competitive community" is that everyone seems to have their own definition of what "competitive community" means, when in most cases, it's actually a really asinine distinction that exists only so people can stroke their e-*****. It's just like the "casual gamer" and "hardcore gamer" distinctions that the gaming community as a whole use. They are arbitrary and meaningless.

Something that is "competitive" is merely something that facilitates competition in any form. A "competitive" person is simply someone who aims to challenge and compete against others in any form.

By dictionary definition, pretty much every single person who touches a Smash game is "competitive", and therefore, part of the "competitive community". It doesn't matter if they are playing a four player game with items on Very High on WarioWare, playing with a very specific stage list with no items, four stocks, and doing it for money. It doesn't matter if they are trying to get the best score in the world in Target Test or Home Run Contest. It doesn't matter if they are trying to get the best speedrun in Melee's Adventure Mode or Brawl's Subspace Emissary (yes, people do this). All of these actions, and more, are competitive, and Smash facilitates them. So it can be classified as a "competitive game", and it can be assumed that the game was consciously designed to facilitate competition.

However, a lot of people like to mistakenly refer to the professional Smash players as "the competitive community". This is false. They are not the only competitive players. They are simply professional players, or the "professional community". A "professional" is someone who does something for a living. Professional Smash players play Smash for a living.

And just so we're clear on the definition of "community", it's merely a group of people with something in common, or similar values.

So, if the question is really meant to mean "is For Glory designed with professional players in mind?", then the answer is a definite, blunt, straight-up "no". No aspect of any Smash game has ever been designed with the intent of letting anyone but the dev team and Nintendo make a living off of the product. And even then, it was not designed with the intent of facilitating making a living off of the game via merely PLAYING it. Sakurai, the dev team, and Nintendo make a living off of it because they contributed to making a commercial product.

People who make money off of playing Smash have no right or entitlement to be doing so. The effort put into turning Smash play into a commercial thing, is commendable, and I encourage it, personally. But if for whatever reason, Nintendo didn't want people doing that, they would be within their legal rights, since it is their product, and generally, using someone else's commercial product as a direct means of making money, without their express consent, is illegal.

The way I look at it, Nintendo of Japan is not entirely happy with people doing this, and Sakurai likely does not care to design a game that basically puts food on the tables of people who are probably more well off than a lot of people in his own country. However, Nintendo of America clearly enjoys and embraces the competitive community, at least right now.

Smash 4, if it is structurally like previous Smash games, will facilitate professional Smash players just fine, especially on Wii U (since streaming from that is actually pretty simple, as I discovered last night). It will have the options necessary to set up matches where random factors are minimal, and so on. The debate of whether or not it is engaging enough is just personal preference. If people are putting on Smash 4 tournaments and streams that use the exact same rule sets as Melee, for example, but people don't sign up for tournaments and watch streams, then that is the fault of the TOs for not using this game's potential to the best of the it's ability, as far as making it enjoyable as a tournament game goes. If the complaint with Smash 4 is that there isn't enough advanced techniques like wave-dashing or what not to give it a meta game and skill ceiling that will forever evolve (and therefore always be exciting to play and watch at tournaments), then spice things up by allowing custom equipment and custom moves along with the traditional 4-stock, no items, limited stages ruleset. That will most assuredly make matches more interesting and no two matches will be the same. There is also Smash Run, which could easily be engaging to watch. And maybe have a little side event - Amiibo Gambling! Two players pit their Amiibos that they trained real hard, and pit them against each other. Maybe have them join your fights!

There is going to be absolutely no excuses for people not wanting to encourage Smash 4 as a professional practice. There are so many ways this game will facilitate making money for the community at large. Just don't pretend it's Melee, because it isn't. Melee has proven it can stand on it's own as a professional business for the Smash community, it need not be replicated (and Project M already did that and is gaining popularity and can facilitate professional play just fine).

If you want to make money off of playing or streaming Smash 4, think like an entrepreneur, not like someone who has too much nostalgia for the glory days/scene that is Melee. Melee has it's own merits and people are using them excellently. Smash 4 may not have all of the same merits, but it has some excellent merits that Melee doesn't have, so to make Smash 4 an engaging e-sport, the wheel needs to be re-invented.

...I kinda got sidetracked there, but yeah.

 

[Icylobster]

I'm not understanding all of the controversy about this. However I do have a questions, do we know if you can choose between 1v1 and 4v4 in For Glory mode?

Edit: Meant 4 player FFA, I wouldn't mind 2v2 either though.

 

[Greda]

I think we agree that the OP is incorrect.

If you want to say the OP just used competitive community to describe "Melee-playing tournament frequenters" then I would say the OP should learn to be specific, and that the thread is a waste of time since we all know Sakurai didn't make a mode exclusively for people that frequently go to Melee tournaments. The OP wanted to be petty, so he posted a thread deriding competitive players.

I don't fully disagree with the OP, I know where he is getting at, but he's just putting targets all over the community that pays attention to Melee tournaments. If the OP means that For Glory WASN'T made for tournament pros, then yes, that would be correct. Likewise, if the OP says that For Glory WAS made for tournament pros, or wasn't made for competitive players, this is flat out wrong.

I'm not understanding all of the controversy about this. However I do have a questions, do we know if you can choose between 1v1 and 4v4 in For Glory mode?

You can choose between 1v1, yes, but 4v4...? I don't think For Glory allows up to eight players. Unless if you mean just four players fighting.

I want to throw an insane concept into the mix here. Just try to keep up. Particularly you, OP.

It literally doesn't matter.

Let me repeat: It. Does. Not. Matter. Who. The. Mode. Was. Made. For.

This thread really serves no purpose other than to argue semantics, and who is better at reading Sakurai's mind.
Have fun kids.

I laughed at this for a good ten minutes.

 

[Icylobster]

Sorry, I meant 4 player FFA

 

[Newt Floss]

"Casuals" have 1 v 1 matches with no items all the time.

I've never done this.

 

[Icylobster]

Casuals" have 1 v 1 matches with no items all the time.

I've never done this.

Before I even knew about competitive matches it was very common in our house and with friends to play 1v1 or with multiple people FFA with no items on. We would also select items to low with only specific items in, ones that we felt were more reasonable. I think it was only in Smash 64 were we didn't mind items as much, now a days it just feels like there is too much stuff too often.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ser bird guy, I think you're overlooking a pretty important detail.

For Glory is one of the modes in the With Anybody category. How exactly do you intend to settle quarrels with randomly connected strangers? Not to mention the fact that it's not even necessarily 1v1 anyway; Sakurai said there's an option for 1v1. Everything that you say For Glory is for, it's really not for.

The way I see it, For Glory is a personal mode where you test your own skill in a fair environment, with random factors removed. That doesn't mean platforms removed too. That's just dumb.

It's FD only because yadda yadda yadda balance reasons blah blah blah consistent stage selection yackity yack yack not dealing with stage legality.

You guys weren't listening anyway. It's going to be fun when FD is declared the most neutral stage.

People are upset this mode exists?

The only thing I'm upset about is that it's FD only. It should be FD / Town and City / Battlefield at the very least.

That's the problem with adding stages. Put in just FD, people ask for BF and SV. Put in BF and SV, people ask for YI, LC, ID...

Wouldn't the other stages be pointless since it's all chosen by the RNG anyway?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You guys will argue for just about everything, huh?

 

[Cap'nChreest]

For glory mode was made for the people who picked FD all the time in Basic Brawl... So everyone. It was made for everyone.

 

[Hentai_Kittie]

For glory mode was made for the people who picked FD all the time in Basic Brawl... So everyone. It was made for everyone.

I have played over 23,000 brawl matches (98% of them were online). The majority of all of those matches were played on Final Destination (about a staggering 80% of them). A good portion of those matches, my opponents were.... not good. I never once chose to play on Final Destination myself except for the times when people would spam Hyrule Temple and super camp (i hate that stage).

In other words, i completely agree =^~^=

 

[DahremRuhar]

I laughed at this for a good ten minutes.

Normally, I would feel some level of pride that somebody found my "jokes" "humorous."

Of course, in this case, this thread is still full of literally nothing. I've seen more meaningful content in troubleshooting product inserts written entirely in Chinese.

Empty barrels make a lot of noise apparently.


TL;DR:
Mods, pls.

 

[DahremRuhar]

mods, pls delete this post. hit wrong button