For anyone questioning why everyone flies so far after getting hit.

[ImaClubYou]

It seems knockback/knockback scaling is not yet official to the game.

Examples:

Here, at 4:58 Bowser(Gimpyfish) grabs Greninja and brings him from 70% to 89%. The knockback he recieves is not very far.

Here, at 1:14 Bowser(Me) grabs Greninja at 84%(not too big a difference) brings him at 103% and explodes off the screen.

It's amazing we somehow grabbed the same character. Note that both our Flying Slams are fresh with no staling.

Things that are possible:

Knockback may have thresholds of scaling. At 50 you may go nowhere but at 60 you might start flying.

Certain attacks may become priority at certain %'s because of scaling.

Most likely bad DI.

The game isn't finished.



There are many many examples of this in other matches, some may remember Grand Finals at the invitational where Hungrybox(Kirby) killed Zero Suit Samus(ZeRo) at 90% with an up throw but lived a different up throw at over 100% on the top platform.

 

[Katy Parry]

Interesting....

 

[LancerStaff]

This is pretty dang important. I wonder why they'd leave this out of the demo? It's almost not worth playing because of how unfinished it appears.

 

[JayJay584]

The build is at least older than the direct. When I saw Megaman's final smash at E3, he was emotionless. In the direct he was not. There were so many times when characters would flat out disappear right at the end of a match or teleport. The chain chomp also was very wonky every time I saw it. The knockback stuff you pointed out was apparent throughout the entire event as well. It's why Sakurai kept repeating how the game was a WIP.

 

[UpsilonFox]

Interesting, I thought the knockback looked a little wonky and inconsistent from the demo videos I watched online. Good to know I am not crazy and knockback is indeed handled a bit differently in this game.

 

[JaidynReiman]

The build is at least older than the direct. When I saw Megaman's final smash at E3, he was emotionless. In the direct he was not. There were so many times when characters would flat out disappear right at the end of a match or teleport. The chain chomp also was very wonky every time I saw it. The knockback stuff you pointed out was apparent throughout the entire event as well. It's why Sakurai kept repeating how the game was a WIP.

That actually makes a LOT of sense. They have to have this demo available well in advance.

 

[Hong]

That actually makes a LOT of sense. They have to have this demo available well in advance.

Correct.

I guesstimated that the demo build was compiled in April, since they not only had to accommodate for secure yet massive distribution, but even more so the files are localized. That takes time. NOA could have had a really old build and tried to get everything they could polished to the best of their ability. This includes implementation of most of the necessary English voice work.

But it could be an even earlier build. Assuming a week of production time for the direct (editing, translation, reviewing obsessively, etc.), if features or changes that were seen in Direct and Trailer footage were not in the demo build, it could date back to March or even earlier.

It makes me hopeful that some of the combos we have seen in the promotional footage are genuine and not just sandbagging.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

The build is at least older than the direct. When I saw Megaman's final smash at E3, he was emotionless. In the direct he was not. There were so many times when characters would flat out disappear right at the end of a match or teleport. The chain chomp also was very wonky every time I saw it. The knockback stuff you pointed out was apparent throughout the entire event as well. It's why Sakurai kept repeating how the game was a WIP.

Sakurai is known to make sure that his games meet his certain level of polish.

 

[DraginHikari]

Demo versions of most games are not the most recent version of their product as it takes a long time to extract bits and pieces out of the game to put into a demo build and usually the most recent things they are currently are working on are not finalized which is why they are generally not used instead going for a older semi-stable version of the build. There were obvious issues within the demo, such as the fairy bottle item not working period weird graphical issues, freezing issues when certain things would happen, at our Best Buy it took them 30 minutes longer then expected to get the Wii U demo console to work right, as well as things mentioned here. That's just sort of what happens.

 

[JayJay584]

Demo versions of most games are not the most recent version of their product as it takes a long time to extract bits and pieces out of the game to put into a demo build and usually the most recent things they are currently are working on are not finalized which is why they are generally not used instead going for a older semi-stable version of the build. There were obvious issues within the demo, such as the fairy bottle item not working period weird graphical issues, freezing issues when certain things would happen, at our Best Buy it took them 30 minutes longer then expected to get the Wii U demo console to work right, as well as things mentioned here. That's just sort of what happens.

Yeah, but it feels like a lot of people around here don't understand that and believe what we saw is what we will get. It's a bummer. The only thing I think might not change is the delay when throwing. I believe that's intentional to prevent chaingrabs in the future.

 

[ImaClubYou]

There were other things like Giga Mac freezing into everyones favorite T-Pose, teleporting characters at the end of matches, and the game itself freezing.

 

[DraginHikari]

Yeah, but it feels like a lot of people around here don't understand that and believe what we saw is what we will get. It's a bummer. The only thing I think might not change is the delay when throwing. I believe that's intentional to prevent chaingrabs in the future.

There are definitely legitimate concerns for the game in it's current state, but it does seem to be why the 3DS release was pushed to the a September/October release instead of during the summer months there are obvious technical issues that still need to be and the reality is depending on how old the build is some of the issue may have already been addressed but since we don't know when they put together that build we do not know how much time has passed.

 

[Hong]

Yeah, but it feels like a lot of people around here don't understand that and believe what we saw is what we will get. It's a bummer. The only thing I think might not change is the delay when throwing. I believe that's intentional to prevent chaingrabs in the future.

I hope they can find a happy middleground to still at least have combo throws for more characters. This is usually accomplished by having a decent amount of hitstun, but enough minimum base launch power that the faster fallers will always recover before falling back into grab reach.

There were other things like Giga Mac freezing into everyones favorite T-Pose, teleporting characters at the end of matches, and the game itself freezing.

Or the camera being stuck really close for sudden death. Yeesh.

 

[Farrac]

My guess is that this demo is at the very least post-Direct. Take a look at this:

1:28. Now compare Samus' Final Smash with the one from the Direct.

17:34. And finally, let's compare it to the one from the demo build:

25:45. Now, that one looks wider.

I'm guessing the first two are the same, but Sakurai tweaked Samus' Zero Laser at some point between the direct and the current built.

 

[Deleted member]

Good. This means that there will probably be 3 victory poses in the final.

Oh yeah and important gameplay stuff too...

 

[Shariq]

My guess is that this demo is at the very least post-Direct. Take a look at this:

1:28. Now compare Samus' Final Smash with the one from the Direct.

17:34. And finally, let's compare it to the one from the demo build:

25:45. Now, that one looks wider.

I'm guessing the first two are the same, but Sakurai tweaked Samus' Zero Laser at some point between the direct and the current built.

You know something else. The one in the demo actually looks less visually impressive...

 

[Hong]

Good. This means that there will probably be 3 victory poses in the final.

Oh yeah and important gameplay stuff too...

They probably didn't even have any done until it was time to compile the demo. Just threw in the bare minimum to have a functioning product. I am sure the build they play probably has an even less visually spectacular aesthetic for the score screens. Same thing with colour palettes.

I'd imagine the modellers and animators will have their hands full with more important stuff until the last three or so months of development.

 

[Farrac]

You know something else. The one in the demo actually looks less visually impressive...

Yea, noticed that as well,. That's a shame

 

[aldelaro5]

but samus's final smash animation is more detailed than the smash direct...

 

[StarshipGroove]

Like hell it is!

Even Marth launches opponents like they're made of styrofoam now, wtf!

 

[Corbin]

Like hell it is!

Even Marth launches opponents like they're made of styrofoam now, wtf!

Maybe he's been lifting with Ike since Brawl.

 

[TheRage]

Like hell it is!

Even Marth launches opponents like they're made of styrofoam now, wtf!

Yeah, this seems kind of odd. Has Marth been able to throw that far in past games? Because if not, there is a serious problem here.

 

[Joe73191]

I think the demo build is pre-direct. Samus FS in demo was definitely made before the direct one. The direct one is likely closer to what we will have in the actual game.

 

[Problem2]

About the randomized knockback,
Does nobody else kind of worry that knockback having a random variance maybe intentional?

 

[Shaya]

I hope they can find a happy middleground to still at least have combo throws for more characters. This is usually accomplished by having a decent amount of hitstun, but enough minimum base launch power that the faster fallers will always recover before falling back into grab reach.

Well, for example, Dedede's down throw on characters lighter than Marth is still a pretty strong, and getting a follow up grab is guaranteed if you DI a certain way. But it isn't a chain grab, although it's a low + set knockback move (there aren't many in the game in general... ness' forward throw and IIRC ZSS nair are the only others I can think of).

But eh, if we can avoid it altogether, why not? Smash 64-ish grab paradigms is quite fun IMO.
It still looks like most characters have a low knockback juggle throw option (fox up throw, marth down throw), but none of them are going to chain grab. It's going to be somewhat brawlish I guess, with hopefully nothing obnoxious in vertical stalling prowess to ruin the magic of "almost guaranteed" follow ups.

 

[Ryan.]

Hmm interesting. I have no concern though, it'll be fixed before release.

 

[Nstinct]

I assume the Zero Laser in the demo looks the way it does to instill hype during the invitationals and demo time.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

If that's the case, then there's hope for this game, this could mean the KB could be alot different then the demo, so it looks like the final version will probably have alot of combo ability, which is great news to me.

 

[Jarelo]

Nice catch! This makes me feel better about the extreme levels of knockback in the game...

 

[Tristan_win]

About the randomized knockback,
Does nobody else kind of worry that knockback having a random variance maybe intentional?

If that was included into the game it would have the potential to be worst then tripping. I don't think they would add something like that do to it would make percentages less meaningful.

 

[slicesabre]

OR ya know its a demo and a work in progress and glitches and bad values are to be expected?

 

[ImaClubYou]

OR ya know its a demo and a work in progress and glitches and bad values are to be expected?

If this is directed towards me you should read the entire OP first.

 

[Spazzy_D]

About the randomized knockback,
Does nobody else kind of worry that knockback having a random variance maybe intentional?

I doubt it as they actively have taken steps to remove randomization from this game (Olimar's Pikmin order, Dedede only throwing one type of minion, the removal of tripping, etc.)

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Yeah, this seems kind of odd. Has Marth been able to throw that far in past games? Because if not, there is a serious problem here.

Or it's meant to prevent chain grabbing.

 

[pickle962]

Thank you OP for this thread ! I've been saying that the gameplay we experienced/saw at the E3 2014 demo was most likely based off an older build of smash 4! I honestly believe its safe to say that things like landing lag will be practically if not literally non-existent in the final version of the game!

 

[Pyra]

The build is at least older than the direct. When I saw Megaman's final smash at E3, he was emotionless.

Wow, you're absolutely right. I never noticed that.
I just looked it up myself:

This is enough to make me inclined to agree with you.
Direct on the left, E3 on the right.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Wow, you're absolutely right. I never noticed that.
I just looked it up myself:

This is enough to make me inclined to agree with you.
Direct on the left, E3 on the right.

Thank God for Mega Man fans.

 

[KingBroly]

Good eye there. In the demo it definitely felt like something was off with player knockback.

 

[Katy Parry]

It seems knockback/knockback scaling is not yet official to the game.

Examples:

Here, at 4:58 Bowser(Gimpyfish) grabs Greninja and brings him from 70% to 89%. The knockback he recieves is not very far.

Here, at 1:14 Bowser(Me) grabs Greninja at 84%(not too big a difference) brings him at 103% and explodes off the screen.

It's amazing we somehow grabbed the same character. Note that both our Flying Slams are fresh with no staling.

Things that are possible:

Knockback may have thresholds of scaling. At 50 you may go nowhere but at 60 you might start flying.

Certain attacks may become priority at certain %'s because of scaling.

Most likely bad DI.

The game isn't finished.



There are many many examples of this in other matches, some may remember Grand Finals at the invitational where Hungrybox(Kirby) killed Zero Suit Samus(ZeRo) at 90% with an up throw but lived a different up throw at over 100% on the top platform.

Did we notice that in the second video, Bowser falls FARTHER when dropping him?

 

[ImaClubYou]

Did we notice that in the second video, Bowser falls FARTHER when dropping him?

Very possible solution. Respectable even.

But it doesn't change how Kirby can kill ZSS at sub 70% with an up throw on the lower platforms of BF and then attempt it again on the top platform at 90% and not kill.

It's also been stated, but not proved, that DK's up tilt was able to kill at 40%.

The specifics of this kill is not certain however. It could've been a stage spike, ceiling/wall spike.