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FF Fair into something. When it's a combo and with that can be combined?

Felth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
79
Location
Chile
Hello everyone, some of you may use a lot the Set Up Fair into something like Grab, F Tilt or even Up Smash.

I want to know what of this Set ups are real (are real combos) and in which percentages.

My main goal is to figure out when I can use this to continue the Fair with an Up Smash (Watch this video). I don't know if that was a combo or not. Or if I can lead this into an up Smash in High percentages.

More precisely: I propose to make a research as a community about the differents actions that can be taken after a Fair. If it's possible, knowing the intervals that each movement work on the different kind of characters (Heavy, Medium , Lighter or other variable).
 

Pikabunz

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
6,084
Location
San Antonio, TX
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Pikabunz
3DS FC
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Just wrote about this in the Q&A thread earlier.
It's dependent on rage, vertical spacing, opponent's weight, and which hitbox of fair you hit with. One hitbox pops them up and the other pulls them down. Opponent's percent doesn't affect it. This is something I need to look into more, but ff fair to upsmash can be guaranteed on some characters with the right conditions.
In that video, Fox definitely could've shielded that upsmash after the fair. If you want higher frame advantage after a ff fair, then you need a lot of rage. Your opponent's weight affects this a lot as well; the lighter the better. I'll try to get some numbers on this later.
 

Felth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
79
Location
Chile
I know he shielded it, but assuming that situation I want to know if it's possible to continue that Fair into an Up Smash in some cases depending on percentages, characters, rage, etc.
 

Pikabunz

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
6,084
Location
San Antonio, TX
NNID
Pikabunz
3DS FC
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Here's a mini guide on ff fair.

How Does This Work?
Hit with forward air and fast fall it so you land after any of the hits but the last. Even though you get a bit of landing lag from this, it still gives enough hitstun to follow up with something like a grab, ftilt, or even an usmash. You don't necessarily have to fast fall the fair, but it gets you to the ground quicker possibly giving you higher frame advantage.

Two Different Hitboxes
The weak hits of fair has two different hitboxes. The bottom half of Pikachu pops the opponent up and the top half does a weak spike forcing the opponent to land. They both technically have the same amount of hitstun, but the forced landing from the spike hitbox adds an extra frame of stun. With the pop up hit, hitstun normally runs out in the air so the opponent's options are going to be his aerial ones, but characters that fall fast, like Fox, will sometimes recover from hitstun on the ground giving you the extra frame of hitstun. Another thing about the pop up hit is when used on floaty characters it will sometimes pop them up too high, limiting your follow ups. So you generally want to go for the spike hitbox as it gives the extra stun and allows you to have all your follow ups. The pop up hitbox can be good too to get them in the air and go for some mix ups.

Frame Advantage
This is the amount of frames you have over your opponent before they can recover from hitstun. For example, having a 6 frame advantage on your opponent gets you a guaranteed grab, assuming they're in range. Frame advantage is affected by the amount of hitstun you do and the height you're at before your last hit of fair. Hitstun is only affected by the opponent's weight and the amount of rage Pikachu has. Your opponent's percent and move staleness does not affect it at all. To get the most optimal frame advantage, you want to be at 150% and have your last fair hit spike them while Pikachu is one frame above the ground.

I only tested 4 characters for frame advantage, but this chart should give you a general idea how everything affects it.
See new chart here.
Character | Min Frame Advantage (Pop up hit) | Max Frame Advantage (Pop up hit) | Min Frame Advantage (Spike hit) | Max Frame Advantage (Spike hit) | Max Frame Advantage (Spike hit) (Max Rage)
:4dk: | 2 (in air) | 5 (in air) | 3 (on ground) | 6 (on ground) | 9 (on ground)
:4mario: | 3 (in air) | 6 (in air) | 4 (on ground) | 7 (on ground) | 10 (on ground)
:4pikachu: | 5 (in air) | 8 (in air) | 6 (on ground) | 9 (on ground) | 12 (on ground)
:4fox: | 6 (on ground) | 9 (on ground) | 6 (on ground) | 9 (on ground) | 12 (on ground)
The min advantage is from ending your last fair hit 4 frames above the ground and max advantage is from ending it 1 frame above the ground. I'm not entirely sure on the last column of numbers due to rage only working outside of training and I can only count frames in training mode. But it seems like max rage gives you at least an extra 3 frames of hitstun. It could possibly be more than that on some characters.

Follow Ups
I'm not going to say much about this, but just use whatever you think is best for the situation.
| Speed
Jab | 2
Ftilt | 6
Dash Attack | 6
Grab | 6
Nair | 7
Dtilt | 7
Utilt | 7 - 13
Dsmash | 8
Usmash | 10
Grabs will probably be your most common follow up as it's very good for racking up damage. Dash attack and usmash are great for getting kills. Slower moves like Fsmash (15) can be used too if they're in the air and you're expecting them to air dodge even though they should be jumping away.
 
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Felth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
79
Location
Chile
Pikabunz Pikabunz Great Info :)
Someone can make a video showing how to fall in the correct frame? I'm have some problems with this. In theory I can combo Fox with an upsmash if I use the correct timing with the fair. But I can't
 

Kanunuu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
56
How is the hitbox, (spike/popup) determined? Say your are in the middle of their hurt box with your fair, is there a way to determine which hitbox you get so that you can properly follow up? I know for example that the spike hitbox will occur if you drag them to the ground, (I think.)
 

Kanunuu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
56
I'm also curious to know if the up smash will connect fast enough to catch their jump after the pop up hit box. Thanks a lot for your work!
 
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