Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Exceladon City]

That's kinda like Garchomp for DPPt then. Swords Dance and gay in Sandstorm lol.

Yeah but I've never experienced the gayness of Garchomp. I've been reverse swept by Excadrill a number of times. It's ********.

 

[DMG]

I agree with you on that one, both are equally scrubby.





What I understand from both your posts is that basically not only Brawl is the first game of the series where stalling techniques are actually effective compared to previous installments but at the same time, these techniques are not easy to figure out compared to the ones that use the same moves over and over, is that right?

In that case shouldn't the limits put on MK, as well as other characters, be considered as a much more concrete way to finally enforce the no stalling rule rather than attempts to nerf a character to make the game more fair/balanced?

Not... entirely. Melee nowadays would still have maybe Shiek's stalling on the edge or some people argue Jiggs playing with the edge. CP's where Fox could run around endlessly are pretty much gone unless/besides your character really can't catch him or others on Dreamland/DK64/etc. 64 you can have some pretty gay stalling or running away especially on Hyrule. For the most part the ability to run away from people in a strong manner is present in some form for each game even on widely accepted legal stages.


As far as identifying the stalling techniques, yes it's much easier to tell in Melee when Shiek is constantly using Upb to the edge, when Jiggs Peach etc goes into stall mode. They are forced to do specific repeatable things that don't leave much doubt on what's going on. MK on the other hand there's not a specific tell besides more vague things like yeah he will probably go for the edge, maybe try to go under the stage, maybe abuse a safe approach from offstage to onstage and then sweep back out, delay his regrabbing to waste more time at the cost of being a bit riskier, etc. MK doesn't have to sit specifically on the edge or specifically use XYZ move for the general strategy of his overall planking to effectively be too strong for the game to handle.


However with other characters, I think you could make a better argument for knowing easier and being able to identify their planking easier. It's not like DK honestly has a ton of mixups or variables for his planking. Characters that specifically abuse their Upb in tandem with the edge are pretty easy to single out if we wanted to. Especially if they have no "gimmick" or factor like going under the stage, multiple jumps, or being able to change their attack/recovery timing to fully abuse invincibility and remain as safe as possible. Few people realize that G&W for example has to recover at a specific height and timing if he wants to truly be as safe as possible before reaching the edge. Or that if characters do their Upb too early, they can overshoot the edge because the game will not allow them to regrab it so quickly. Or that a lot of planking characters allow someone to auto snap the edge before an appropriate counter aerial would come out from the planker. Etc. That's assuming that their planking is truly a problem, and there are a lot of characters on people's lists that are either situational plankers or characters that just simply will not break the game with it. Like one guy who suggested we needed a LGL for Mario because using Upb to the edge with him was too strong.


So yeah. There's not another comparable MK character when it comes to offstage ambiguity and sheer brokenness if left alone to pursue that. We'd be kidding ourselves if we honestly said we had a harder time figuring out and effectively stopping any other character from engaging in that (on a level that's too good as well mind you.) or that it's just as easy to stop MK as it is GW DK Marth Pika etc.

 

[Exceladon City]

The things you find on GameFAQs

So, I looked up the Smash Bros. Brawl tier list today....

"Broke *** tier - Marth

S tier - Meta Knight

Usable tier - everyone else but Ganondorf

Thor tier - Thor.


That's how bad he is. He's even the worst in games he isn't in.

Hahahahahaha!!! I was funny, right? Is this how you do it?!?!?!?

ahhhh.......I hate Thor."

 

[DMG]

Saw account name Poltergust reply to it

ISTHISREALLIFE.JPG

 

[Exceladon City]

Saw account name Poltergust reply to it

ISTHISREALLIFE.JPG

Polt hath forsaken us for UMvC3.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Thino: the only point of my second post is that melee ruleset should not be used as a comparison because there was a lot of stupid things and oversights-best exemplified by a technique they commonly banned that was only possible with the existence of a red turtle shell on the playing field.

 

[Gea]

To be fair, items were not always banned.

 

[Thino]

Not... entirely. Melee nowadays would still have maybe Shiek's stalling on the edge or some people argue Jiggs playing with the edge. CP's where Fox could run around endlessly are pretty much gone unless/besides your character really can't catch him or others on Dreamland/DK64/etc. 64 you can have some pretty gay stalling or running away especially on Hyrule. For the most part the ability to run away from people in a strong manner is present in some form for each game even on widely accepted legal stages.


As far as identifying the stalling techniques, yes it's much easier to tell in Melee when Shiek is constantly using Upb to the edge, when Jiggs Peach etc goes into stall mode. They are forced to do specific repeatable things that don't leave much doubt on what's going on. MK on the other hand there's not a specific tell besides more vague things like yeah he will probably go for the edge, maybe try to go under the stage, maybe abuse a safe approach from offstage to onstage and then sweep back out, delay his regrabbing to waste more time at the cost of being a bit riskier, etc. MK doesn't have to sit specifically on the edge or specifically use XYZ move for the general strategy of his overall planking to effectively be too strong for the game to handle.


However with other characters, I think you could make a better argument for knowing easier and being able to identify their planking easier. It's not like DK honestly has a ton of mixups or variables for his planking. Characters that specifically abuse their Upb in tandem with the edge are pretty easy to single out if we wanted to. Especially if they have no "gimmick" or factor like going under the stage, multiple jumps, or being able to change their attack/recovery timing to fully abuse invincibility and remain as safe as possible. Few people realize that G&W for example has to recover at a specific height and timing if he wants to truly be as safe as possible before reaching the edge. Or that if characters do their Upb too early, they can overshoot the edge because the game will not allow them to regrab it so quickly. Or that a lot of planking characters allow someone to auto snap the edge before an appropriate counter aerial would come out from the planker. Etc. That's assuming that their planking is truly a problem, and there are a lot of characters on people's lists that are either situational plankers or characters that just simply will not break the game with it. Like one guy who suggested we needed a LGL for Mario because using Upb to the edge with him was too strong.


So yeah. There's not another comparable MK character when it comes to offstage ambiguity and sheer brokenness if left alone to pursue that. We'd be kidding ourselves if we honestly said we had a harder time figuring out and effectively stopping any other character from engaging in that (on a level that's too good as well mind you.) or that it's just as easy to stop MK as it is GW DK Marth Pika etc.

If we go on the principle that the community dislikes stalling, it shouldn't matter how many options a character has or how ambiguous it is, I mean, the way you describe MK's planking means it is easy to figure out when a MK is planking despite the variety of options he has while doing.

So in a sense, it's not as ambiguous as you seem to make it look. After that you just have the measures taken to prevent this from happening, since it IS stalling.

Unless you tell me that there are way MK players can argue that they are not planking while they clearly are.

Thino: the only point of my second post is that melee ruleset should not be used as a comparison because there was a lot of stupid things and oversights-best exemplified by a technique they commonly banned that was only possible with the existence of a red turtle shell on the playing field.

I don't know.. seems weird to me to just discard an entire ruleset from a previous installment from a game just because a lot of things were overlooked back in the days, it makes it look like Brawl ruleset was started from scratch when it was obviously not.

I believe that despite not being enforced back in the days, one of the rules that did carry over is the no stalling rule, that proves itself to be much more useful now since it is possible to stall effectively in Brawl.

 

[Gea]

The problem is, besides things like DDD's infinites extending into inane percents, where do you define the line of stalling? Matches may often continue to some degree when MK is planking, some characters even when he is scrooging. One may do these tactics and not be attempting to stall the match. At what point does one go from "running the timer" or "making the game unplayable?"

 

[Orion*]

It's sorta like how in both Brawl and Melee there has always been a "no stalling rule" in many rulesets...except in the history of the entire game as far as I'm aware, spanning thousands of tournaments and about 7 years, that rule has not once been enforced or used.

was used all the time in NJ/NY there was no LGL and even with teh spammer planking people at events there was never any really high ledge grab counts.

 

[Thino]

The problem is, besides things like DDD's infinites extending into inane percents, where do you define the line of stalling? Matches may often continue to some degree when MK is planking, some characters even when he is scrooging. One may do these tactics and not be attempting to stall the match. At what point does one go from "running the timer" or "making the game unplayable?"

It is the community's role to define those limits.

Because if it is really impossible to draw the line between a MK planking in a situational way and a MK planking with the goal to run the timer, and if MK planking doesn't really prevent the match from continuing, then what exactly is the point of preventing MK from planking with rules like LGL?

 

[Gea]

Indeed it is, and their solution so far has been the LGL. As for the latter... I would say "to try to curb a centralizing tactic" but to be honest I don't think it's really effective at doing so.

 

[DMG]

@Thino earlier post about easy to figure out when a MK is planking despite the variety of options he has while doing."


Except it's not. Tell me what specifically is scrooging, and what is too much of it. The mere act of gliding under the stage doesn't constitute scrooging does it? Doing it a few more times sure, but what if it's spread out or for offensive purposes? If you plan on limiting it, what kind of limit would you use? A low cap, non refreshable limit like no more than 3 glides? What constitutes gliding under the stage? Can I go half way, turn back, and it doesn't count towards my limit? Do I specifically have to be gliding, can I go under with Side B or other moves?


What then is planking? Grabbing the edge specifically is not planking. Doing it a lot would be sure. Spread out? IDK you tell me. Short burst of concentrated grabbing like 7 in a row? Does the context of where/what my opponent is doing matter?


Stalling in general always has the question of "Well what is excessive?". Added to that though is the uncertainty/inability to precisely pinpoint and deal with MK's stalling. A big part of that is because he starts to blur the line between what's normal gameplay or insanely good regular tools vs stalling.


Most stalling that can take place (in any of the Smash games) is created from regular gameplay options, tools, or strategies, that take a turn for the worse. Take running away. Retreating or backing up from an opponent to gain some room is considered regular and expected in many situations. However, throw in lopsided terrain, skewed MU's, and/or extended durations of backing away and you can encounter a problem. Suddenly something that was a regular part of the game, being able to disengage the opponent, now turns the game into a stall fest or at the very least 1 guy doing a very active part at... well being inactive so to speak lol.


Now take MK scrooging. MK gliding under a stage 1 time or even a few times isn't broken. In excess sure it can be plenty gay. Same with MK grabbing the edge. It's not broken when done a little bit, but you always tread a fine line between too much and not really that bad. This is all after you've came up with a definition for scrooging since without a concrete definition of that you're not much better off than trying to get rid of it with the no stalling rule. Same with planking: we have general "caps" on touching the edge without actually expanding on what planking specifically is. Sure we know that grabbing the edge a large amount is not healthy. But why is that? Is it specifically grabbing it a lot is bad, or that the process he can establish for doing so is too safe, or that the process isn't overly safe but the benefit of getting to the edge is too great, etc. This combined with the fact that he doesn't have to be limited specifically to 1 path or specific method or strategy while doing all of this. Different ways to grab the edge, different responses after grabbing the edge, different frequencies of grabbing the edge, etc.


He can grab the edge in a bunch of different ways, with different timings/frequencies in regrabs, with different responses after he has gotten to the edge. Some are clearly not stalling, some are blurry, some look ok at first until repeated a ton, some don't look very good but also take a bit of time before it turns completely nasty, etc. MK dealing with the edge and under the stage and familiar surroundings does not always translate into a Black or White picture of he's clearly not/is stalling. Which in turn means putting stuff on like a LGL isn't even close to guaranteeing you are addressing the stalling issue appropriately. As mentioned earlier, this isn't a character using a specific move over and over or something amazingly repetitive like that. He's got a ton of flexibility in creating options or situations where multiple responses can give similar "blurry" results.

 

[Orion*]

shoutouts to ramin for being able to do GIMRs anti plank **** today in WFs, was broken

 

[DMG]

shoutouts to ramin for being able to do GIMRs anti plank **** today in WFs, was broken

It is kinda hype. Now to add in the mindgames where you encourage someone to come near the edge and try this, only to do a different aerial or delay the hit so they fudge the timing. Or if only people took the time in learning how to do anything vs other characters. We came up with buffer PS fall off attack that barely comes out/trades with MK to hit him out of this, yet we still haven't looked in depth at options vs DK planking or showing problems with Pit. Solutions which, I might add, are probably 100 times easier and more effective to implement.

TSK TSK AMERICA

 

[Orion*]

It is kinda hype. Now to add in the mindgames where you encourage someone to come near the edge and try this, only to do a different aerial or delay the hit so they fudge the timing. Or if only people took the time in learning how to do anything vs other characters. We came up with buffer PS fall off attack that barely comes out/trades with MK to hit him out of this, yet we still haven't looked in depth at options vs DK planking or showing problems with Pit. Solutions which, I might add, are probably 100 times easier and more effective to implement.

TSK TSK AMERICA

he actually kinda did that

since he started doing it in friendlies sometimes i got worried and i delayed the timing, didnt even do it from my initial ledge fall i was under the stage, and like he got this weird as angle and baired me. homie had no fear LMAO

its hard to explain without visuals it was really silly

 

[Cassio]

I think ripple did create a thread about DKs planking and what could and couldnt beat it. Some characters are kinda screwed, but not all. I dunno if that ledgefall stuff would work though.

 

[Luco]

The problem is, besides things like DDD's infinites extending into inane percents, where do you define the line of stalling? Matches may often continue to some degree when MK is planking, some characters even when he is scrooging. One may do these tactics and not be attempting to stall the match. At what point does one go from "running the timer" or "making the game unplayable?"

By that logic you could call Marth's chain grabs on walk-off stages stalling, cause all he needs to do is kill the char, run away until the invisibility frames wear off, then chain grab again. :/

Or even worse, DK chain cargo grabs.....

Well, that is, with PK kids anyway.

 

[antndnlcs]

why don't you just make a rule where mk players can't choose stages at all?

That way the underdog character can have a slight advantage over "God"

Pick your poison kinda thing...

 

[Gea]

By that logic you could call Marth's chain grabs on walk-off stages stalling, cause all he needs to do is kill the char, run away until the invisibility frames wear off, then chain grab again. :/

Or even worse, DK chain cargo grabs.....

Well, that is, with PK kids anyway.

Any infinite grab that goes over what, 300%? or something is considered stalling. The idea is that you could stall the match by just doing it well past kill % to run the timer instead of kill them and continue the match.

It has nothing to do with using the infinite to get a kill.

why don't you just make a rule where mk players can't choose stages at all?

That way the underdog character can have a slight advantage over "God"

Pick your poison kinda thing...

Because that would be holding one character to a different standard than the rest of the cast. It's avoiding the issue, really. If you think he's too good for normal use under the normal rules, why is he legal? Why create a different "game" just for one character? He isn't even the worst matchup for many characters. Why should they still get to dictate the stage to him when they don't get to against a D3, or an Olimar, or ICs?

 

[antndnlcs]

well for starters, it would allow mk players to at least play him.
It would also discourage pocketknights due to the mk player thinking whether or not his skills with mk are good enough to deal with...idk like ICs at FD for example.

And it would be a lot easier to keep track of than LGL and all the other limits trying to get placed on mk imo, since you would need a peson counting all of that for every mk player.
And that just sounds tedious .---.

 

[Kuro~]

You don't have to count ledge grabs...there's a statistic that tells you at the results screen.

 

[Flayl]

You need to count them if you want to know if you should time the MK out or not.

but that is as the opponent, not the judge/TO/whatever

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

When most of the people I see on pro ban complaining don't attend tournaments regularly or are unable to comprehend the game past an extremely basic level I seriously doubt this because it's very likely that many of these players spend more time posting and *****ing than playing the game.

Even the URC who banned MK... is made mostly of inactive or mediocre level players.

Yeah man anti ban has all the pro players

metaknight is not very comparable to sf2 akuma lol

ummm even if you wanted to say he doesn't reduce all of their options to 0 with 1 move like akuma does (which he can in a lot of cases but whatever) he can pretty much avoid all combat 100% of the time unless he's heavily regulated

Every stage in this game is unique so I don't really call that significant. In short I could make the argument that it's the least unique or polar stage because it is in short, the basis for all other stages in the game. FD is the most basic layout with absolutely no random events, giving absolutely no random advantages.

I tend to agree with this, I think people who think FD isn't "neutral" look at stages based on the characters that play on them rather than the elements they have which isn't the best way of looking at things but does have historical legitimacy. That stupid Zelda stage with the walkoffs on both sides is banned for no other reason but like "dedede can cg you to death repeatedly" which we decided was stupid. Do Falco's lasers or ICs make FD stupid too? I think it's just a question of how extreme the example is.

Don't even get me wrong because I honestly think ps1 should be legal anyway. But thinking stages always =s more strategic is an absolute joke.

I wonder a lot why people love PS1 so much, half of the transformations are just both players taunting each other until it goes back to normal, and one has the windmill (which you like when you're doing well and hate when you're not).

 

[Flayl]

Bridge of Eldin is banned because of walkoff camping IIRC not because of Dedede. He did help though.

 

[Ussi]

DDD CP you to BoE? CP IC! Or pikachu.. Or Falco..

 

[Gea]

Usage:

Universally banned due to major stalling issues, permanent walk-offs, and the extremely large size which promotes degenerate camping

DDD is not the only reason, though waiting two minutes to get CGed from one side of the other sure sounds fun.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If BoE was legal I would CP like every player I know can't SDI there with ZSS

 

[Cassio]

God I wish BoE were legal. Well maybe not...Olimar

 

[antndnlcs]

You need to count them if you want to know if you should time the MK out or not.

but that is as the opponent, not the judge/TO/whatever

ohhh okay thanks! that makes more sense -__-;;
I'm more into melee than brawl as you can see, so i'm trying to understand brawl better.

How do you feel about the "MK is over centralized" idea someone brought up earlier?

You don't have to count ledge grabs...there's a statistic that tells you at the results screen.

thank you! i didn't see your post until i posted this reply D:

 

[Orion*]

ummm even if you wanted to say he doesn't reduce all of their options to 0 with 1 move like akuma does (which he can in a lot of cases but whatever)

Not from a neutral setting. From a non neutral setting there are plenty of characters that can do this that are high tier

he can pretty much avoid all combat 100% of the time unless he's heavily regulated

I disagree. I will say that the risk reward is skewed COMPLETELY, and it's extremely unfun and boring if you play an MK that knows what they are doing and get's the lead... but honestly that's like half the ****ing characters in this game, and tbh there are less than a handful of MKs that are actually good enough to plank and win anyway. Small mistakes = stock and it's very high risk reward. I remember chibo used to hold no LGL tournaments w/ MK legal and placings like where the same as they always where.

Even with planking legal I still couldnt beat ADHD in the two sets we played, I did manage to time him out one match. but overall through smart play/patience and making me have to guess my spacings he either slowly got the lead back or didnt let me get it in the first place.

From a personal perspective out of enjoyment if there was no LGL i would prefer there to be no MK tournament wise, and I completely understand why that **** is gay. But before people exaggerate things and say how broken it is they should actually try it... There is literally NO regional/major tournaments won by someone even close to predominantly using/focusing on this strategy ever. Despite the small sample size, if the tactic was That overpowering don't you still think that it likely would have dominated more?

but in all honesty w/ no LGL in general I would be tempted to say even with MK gone this game as fragile as a community as we already have would probably not last. regardless of the MK ban decision I will continue to argue for a balanced stage list and a LGL.

 

[Omni]

^This guy gets it.

 

[Exdeath]

Even with planking legal I still couldnt beat ADHD in the two sets we played, I did manage to time him out one match. but overall through smart play/patience and making me have to guess my spacings he either slowly got the lead back or didnt let me get it in the first place.

That you were able to take a game off of ADHD when he so thoroughly out-classed you says something.

/Not referencing the "unbeatable" aspect

 

[Kimidori]

^ I agree 100% with Orion. No LGL AND no MK and we are still at potential of plank wars, though. LGL needs to stay, and stage list needs to be lowered. LGL is necessary no matter what lol, I actually like how it works. We still have DK, who can plank for a VERY long time, and most characters are screwed over against it. Then of course, stage list needs to be smaller so we can stop focusing on screwing over certain characters. Air based characters can still do very well on stages like Battlefield and Smashville. Hell, Japanese even has Lylat, Yoshi's, and PS1 now... Just for those picky people who just HAVE to have some form of counterpick lol.

Then again, I don't know anything do I. ;P

 

[DMG]

It brings up a good point though. We've worked hard to nationally ban or regulate a tactic... that hasn't even won anything notable. We dislike planking so inherently much that we didn't even give it the chance at proving itself unopposed at multiple nationals to see the outcome. Now, it's the right call to have SOME kind of limit on the edge unless you want gameplay to heavily centralize over it (MK legal there's no question the game is ruined, MK not legal it's iffy but a lot of people still wouldn't play since the edge would still be powerful for a fewish)


I think the low risk high reward goes beyond the mere point of being strong (not for every planking character, but less than a handful). If it's only "strong" or "gay", why do we have to stop it? I would LIKE to believe that most of the stuff we've banned or taken care of wasn't cause we merely dislike it. Oh I "dislike" RC, ban it, instead of hey RC is a bad stage lets ban it. If it goes beyond the point of being a good strategy and turns into something centralizing like hey guys the game will now be ledge play vs anti ledge play, LET'S GO, then yeah you scrap it. Otherwise no you leave it in.


TL:DR

You can't call planking not broken/heavily degrading, and then turn around advocating that we regulate it. It's broken to at least THAT point Orion. It's not so bad that DK or Pit single handedly break the game, but if it's bad enough that we prevented it from even winning a single national or notable, and we continue to argue for a LGL to exist to stop even the possibility of something that atrocious from happening, chances are it wasn't cause we're massive poons with no brains that merely dislike going offstage who have no ability to judge how good planking is.


Kim: I don't want to even. YOU REALLY want to pick DK for that example? You know who's 5x better at planking than him? G^W. If you want to argue that ANY other character breaks the edge anywhere close to MK, it's that character. Don't say ROB either. I'm getting tired of that ****.

Start looking into G^W. Do some research instead of " I saw Rich Brown vs Will, I'm qualified to know the intricacies of planking and I SAY NAY DK LEST UNFATHOMABLE BEAST DWELL NEAR THE EDGE OF THE WORLD".

 

[Thino]

@Thino earlier post about easy to figure out when a MK is planking despite the variety of options he has while doing."


Except it's not. Tell me what specifically is scrooging, and what is too much of it. The mere act of gliding under the stage doesn't constitute scrooging does it? Doing it a few more times sure, but what if it's spread out or for offensive purposes? If you plan on limiting it, what kind of limit would you use? A low cap, non refreshable limit like no more than 3 glides? What constitutes gliding under the stage? Can I go half way, turn back, and it doesn't count towards my limit? Do I specifically have to be gliding, can I go under with Side B or other moves?


What then is planking? Grabbing the edge specifically is not planking. Doing it a lot would be sure. Spread out? IDK you tell me. Short burst of concentrated grabbing like 7 in a row? Does the context of where/what my opponent is doing matter?


Stalling in general always has the question of "Well what is excessive?". Added to that though is the uncertainty/inability to precisely pinpoint and deal with MK's stalling. A big part of that is because he starts to blur the line between what's normal gameplay or insanely good regular tools vs stalling.


Most stalling that can take place (in any of the Smash games) is created from regular gameplay options, tools, or strategies, that take a turn for the worse. Take running away. Retreating or backing up from an opponent to gain some room is considered regular and expected in many situations. However, throw in lopsided terrain, skewed MU's, and/or extended durations of backing away and you can encounter a problem. Suddenly something that was a regular part of the game, being able to disengage the opponent, now turns the game into a stall fest or at the very least 1 guy doing a very active part at... well being inactive so to speak lol.


Now take MK scrooging. MK gliding under a stage 1 time or even a few times isn't broken. In excess sure it can be plenty gay. Same with MK grabbing the edge. It's not broken when done a little bit, but you always tread a fine line between too much and not really that bad. This is all after you've came up with a definition for scrooging since without a concrete definition of that you're not much better off than trying to get rid of it with the no stalling rule. Same with planking: we have general "caps" on touching the edge without actually expanding on what planking specifically is. Sure we know that grabbing the edge a large amount is not healthy. But why is that? Is it specifically grabbing it a lot is bad, or that the process he can establish for doing so is too safe, or that the process isn't overly safe but the benefit of getting to the edge is too great, etc. This combined with the fact that he doesn't have to be limited specifically to 1 path or specific method or strategy while doing all of this. Different ways to grab the edge, different responses after grabbing the edge, different frequencies of grabbing the edge, etc.


He can grab the edge in a bunch of different ways, with different timings/frequencies in regrabs, with different responses after he has gotten to the edge. Some are clearly not stalling, some are blurry, some look ok at first until repeated a ton, some don't look very good but also take a bit of time before it turns completely nasty, etc. MK dealing with the edge and under the stage and familiar surroundings does not always translate into a Black or White picture of he's clearly not/is stalling. Which in turn means putting stuff on like a LGL isn't even close to guaranteeing you are addressing the stalling issue appropriately. As mentioned earlier, this isn't a character using a specific move over and over or something amazingly repetitive like that. He's got a ton of flexibility in creating options or situations where multiple responses can give similar "blurry" results.

It brings up a good point though. We've worked hard to nationally ban or regulate a tactic... that hasn't even won anything notable. We dislike planking so inherently much that we didn't even give it the chance at proving itself unopposed at multiple nationals to see the outcome. Now, it's the right call to have SOME kind of limit on the edge unless you want gameplay to heavily centralize over it (MK legal there's no question the game is ruined, MK not legal it's iffy but a lot of people still wouldn't play since the edge would still be powerful for a fewish)


I think the low risk high reward goes beyond the mere point of being strong (not for every planking character, but less than a handful). If it's only "strong" or "gay", why do we have to stop it? I would LIKE to believe that most of the stuff we've banned or taken care of wasn't cause we merely dislike it. Oh I "dislike" RC, ban it, instead of hey RC is a bad stage lets ban it. If it goes beyond the point of being a good strategy and turns into something centralizing like hey guys the game will now be ledge play vs anti ledge play, LET'S GO, then yeah you scrap it. Otherwise no you leave it in.


TL:DR

You can't call planking not broken/heavily degrading, and then turn around advocating that we regulate it. It's broken to at least THAT point Orion. It's not so bad that DK or Pit single handedly break the game, but if it's bad enough that we prevented it from even winning a single national or notable, and we continue to argue for a LGL to exist to stop even the possibility of something that atrocious from happening, chances are it wasn't cause we're massive poons with no brains that merely dislike going offstage who have no ability to judge how good planking is.


Kim: I don't want to even. YOU REALLY want to pick DK for that example? You know who's 5x better at planking than him? G^W. If you want to argue that ANY other character breaks the edge anywhere close to MK, it's that character. Don't say ROB either. I'm getting tired of that ****.

Start looking into G^W. Do some research instead of " I saw Rich Brown vs Will, I'm qualified to know the intricacies of planking and I SAY NAY DK LEST UNFATHOMABLE BEAST DWELL NEAR THE EDGE OF THE WORLD".

The amount of things I agree with in both these posts is uncanny, I'm starting to wonder why MK ban is the only thing we have different opinions about then..

The community has been and is still not clear about some of the ruling they come up with, even if AZ argues that it's better now compared to the Melee days, I still, on a personal level, disagree with banning stuff and getting away with them because of "not wanting to deal with it" or "its bad" or "its unhealthy".

So my question is, since I'm not in the mood to dig or necro one of the old threads in this section, has there been any valuable explanation as to why LGL is STILL in the ruleset somewhere?

 

[Orion*]

That you were able to take a game off of ADHD when he so thoroughly out-classed you says something.

/Not referencing the "unbeatable" aspect

I took a game from him like 2 weeks later in a regular ruleset also. Actually that set I got closer it was last game I lost by timeout of like 50% or something instead of getting 3-1ed. Don't get me wrong wyatt is a tier above me player wise or something but saying he thoroughly outclasses me is a stretch at best

 

[popsofctown]

The amount of things I agree with in both these posts is uncanny, I'm starting to wonder why MK ban is the only thing we have different opinions about then..

The community has been and is still not clear about some of the ruling they come up with, even if AZ argues that it's better now compared to the Melee days, I still, on a personal level, disagree with banning stuff and getting away with them because of "not wanting to deal with it" or "its bad" or "its unhealthy".

So my question is, since I'm not in the mood to dig or necro one of the old threads in this section, has there been any valuable explanation as to why LGL is STILL in the ruleset somewhere?

Whenever it's bought up it's "that one DK did it to that one Olimar that one time". LGL is full ******.

 

[Exdeath]

I took a game from him like 2 weeks later in a regular ruleset also. Actually that set I got closer it was last game I lost by timeout of like 50% or something instead of getting 3-1ed. Don't get me wrong wyatt is a tier above me player wise or something but saying he thoroughly outclasses me is a stretch at best

I wouldn't say that now, but I would say that he did when you were still living in the U.S.

 

[Orion*]

Whenever it's bought up it's "that one DK did it to that one Olimar that one time". LGL is full ******.

Tell me the amount of significant tournaments in the past few years that had no LGL installed. Ironically the only one that did didnt have MK legal, and there where multiple issues, hylian got planked by esca also iirc.

I wouldn't say that now, but I would say that he did when you were still living in the U.S.

*shrug*

regardless of the skill deficit i could still take games from him regardless of ruleset and the inclusion of no LGLs did not give me That much more of an advantage.