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EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)
- Thread starter Pi
- Start date
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I see. Wow, even ESAM dropped a bunch of those. The timing must be tight.....
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
Hi I'm new to smash and my only consistent adv techniques in games are tilting, wavedash, and simple recovery (bomb jump, rising grapple, simple grapple, sweetspotting) and I feel that when I play on FD i feel really limited in terms of options because I got no platforms, like if I get them straight up, what can I do without getting slammed? Should I wait?
Not to mention my lack of missile options
What are your strategies or mindset when you play on FD?
Not to mention my lack of missile options
What are your strategies or mindset when you play on FD?
Violence
Smash Lord
Specify a matchup, Mano, it's very different to play on FD vs different characters.
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
My biggest problem is Marth, although I feel in any matchup on FD my overall options in terms of movement and approaching are extremely limited (no platforms)
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I never like to take Falco's to FD for the same reason why Marth's never like to take me to FD 
Just stand there and missile once Marth begins his dash dance. If the Marth your playing is more ground based just missile him. He has to either counter them, jab them, ftilt them, or jump over them. If he decides to jump over them to intercept you, well, you've got Marth above you so your already looking pretty good. If he is running around like a maniac throwing out nair's try to dash attack underneath them. It works surprisingly well. If he's approaching with fairs cc dsmash.
Just stand there and missile once Marth begins his dash dance. If the Marth your playing is more ground based just missile him. He has to either counter them, jab them, ftilt them, or jump over them. If he decides to jump over them to intercept you, well, you've got Marth above you so your already looking pretty good. If he is running around like a maniac throwing out nair's try to dash attack underneath them. It works surprisingly well. If he's approaching with fairs cc dsmash.
Violence
Smash Lord
I would say the most important thing for a new Samus player in the Marth matchup is rhythm.
Understand that Marths have a rhythm they like to use. Fair, fair. Fair, fair. Dash, dance. Dash, dance. Once you start to understand this rhythm, you can focus on dancing outside of their range and using missiles to bait their reaction. Watch how they react to missiles. Some people shield them, so you can run in behind and grab. Some people fair them, so you can run in behind and dash attack. Some people jump over them, so you can come under with uair.
Remember to crouch cancel if you find yourself awkwardly spaced. dtilt leads to uair, dsmash can usually lead to edgeguard opportunity.
Don't be afraid, be patient, and live long.
Understand that Marths have a rhythm they like to use. Fair, fair. Fair, fair. Dash, dance. Dash, dance. Once you start to understand this rhythm, you can focus on dancing outside of their range and using missiles to bait their reaction. Watch how they react to missiles. Some people shield them, so you can run in behind and grab. Some people fair them, so you can run in behind and dash attack. Some people jump over them, so you can come under with uair.
Remember to crouch cancel if you find yourself awkwardly spaced. dtilt leads to uair, dsmash can usually lead to edgeguard opportunity.
Don't be afraid, be patient, and live long.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Almost forgot, The Samus Index Thread probably has the most character tips on Marth currently. I would link it but for some reason Smashboards won't let me right now.
Copy+Pasta:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-samus-index-thread-in-the-works.333011/
Scroll down to the Marth section and click on the second spoiler tag.
Copy+Pasta:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-samus-index-thread-in-the-works.333011/
Scroll down to the Marth section and click on the second spoiler tag.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
FD is my least favorite stage in all of Melee. I'd rather play on Yoshi's, tbh. The lack of platforms really expose Samus when the opponent figures out that she can be juggled all day. That and Falco. Screw that stage and SCREW FALCO!!!
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
This is some great advice and I'll keep it in mind next time I get to play
My biggest issue is the predictability of missile usage in FD, because if you want to MC you have to SH, and that's easy to see a mile away. Im not good enough to do things like FF MC or x2 missile w/o platforms
My biggest issue is the predictability of missile usage in FD, because if you want to MC you have to SH, and that's easy to see a mile away. Im not good enough to do things like FF MC or x2 missile w/o platforms
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
SHFFMC(short hop fast fall missile cancel) has a four frame window IIRC so yea haven't tackled them yet. If you need help with full hop double missiles on FD it's all about the timing. I'd rather be standing missiling a Marth though unless they started jumping a whole lot.
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
Yeah I've tried trying to do it a ton of times and havent had consistent success yet.
For now I guess I have to play less missile focused on FD, and keep what you guys have said in mind
For now I guess I have to play less missile focused on FD, and keep what you guys have said in mind
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Or you could just strike/ban FD. That's what I usually do and if it's your worst stage, you might seriously want to consider it. Then again, I also have a (crappy) Sheik secondary.
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
Nah I'm all for trying for improving my game in all ways possible : )
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Am I the only one that thought SaMus' combos looked the coolest? Ganon/Sheik for close seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuFpmoKUVQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuFpmoKUVQ
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Samus, then spacees, then Sheilda for me. 
Violence
Smash Lord
I like how other characters look broken, but Samus is legitimately broken. She just flies.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Bombs and missiles alone made her incredibly broken. Then there's the fact that half of her aerials and tilts are pretty much tailor-made to extend combos. It's too bad we didn't get to see any SWDs or Extenders in that video.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuFpmoKUVQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=40s
is honestly the most graceful thing I've ever seen
is honestly the most graceful thing I've ever seen
Knut
Smash Apprentice
SH > homin missile technology is soo good. its funny, i remember mentioning how to do it a few months back, but no one was interested until they saw esam using it in vids recently. anyway, i really like how you use them esam. awesome stuff dude.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I've been trying them but I'm having a hard time getting them while staying in place. When I try to homing missile in place its a smash missile. I can only do them while moving =/ help
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Just tilt the control stick lightly. You don't have to press it all the way. You can even do tilted A attacks (not smashes) and tilt sideBs when you have the stick tilted by such a small amount that you aren't even walking yet. The game detects it all, man!
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Last night I hit another one of my goals as a Samus main. I broke a Peach' shield at around 114%. It was one of the greatest moments I've had in smash. Cheers to many more broken shields Sami <3
ycz12
Smash Ace
*golf claps*
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
On SH Homing missile on high platforms (Battlefield):
I've found pressing Y then quickly sliding my thumb down to side-B produces the best results for trying to learn this tech
Only problems I have are mashing the Y and getting a full-hop, so you have to be delicate doing it.
Also to note I've only done this from a running position, could this be done from a standing samus? Back to Battlefield
Apologies if everyone knows this already
I've found pressing Y then quickly sliding my thumb down to side-B produces the best results for trying to learn this tech
Only problems I have are mashing the Y and getting a full-hop, so you have to be delicate doing it.
Also to note I've only done this from a running position, could this be done from a standing samus? Back to Battlefield
Apologies if everyone knows this already
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Nope my missile cancels are still quite bad =[
I think what Bubbaking said earlier might help you out. There's a position on the control stick that the game will register as forward but won't move you much if at all.
I think what Bubbaking said earlier might help you out. There's a position on the control stick that the game will register as forward but won't move you much if at all.
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
Man sometimes samus is way too crazy
I practice some techs and think "well how could I possibly do this in a real game" lol
hmm too bad i cant watch you try the tech then i could see what ur doing different from me, I guess my only advice could be to slide faster, and I know that sometimes it just wont work, it happens in that esam vid posted earlier, when he tries to SH homing missile on the platform but just doesn't get it, when chances are he did the same procedure
I also know what hes talking about, i use that when I do missle spam w/ platforms, it's gonna be tough to combine that with finger sliding for SH homers
I practice some techs and think "well how could I possibly do this in a real game" lol
hmm too bad i cant watch you try the tech then i could see what ur doing different from me, I guess my only advice could be to slide faster, and I know that sometimes it just wont work, it happens in that esam vid posted earlier, when he tries to SH homing missile on the platform but just doesn't get it, when chances are he did the same procedure
I also know what hes talking about, i use that when I do missle spam w/ platforms, it's gonna be tough to combine that with finger sliding for SH homers
Knut
Smash Apprentice
i dash one way, then jump and shoot them in the opposite direction. otherwise i find them too hard to do without drifting forward, when i wanna do them from a "stationary" point. sorta like doing pivot > SH > homing.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I just use the the insta-DJ method for homing missiles on BF's plats now. It's practically just as fast and a ton easier.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
insta-DJ method, is that the method Knut taught me with x->y in a swiping motion?
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
Yup thats the one,although I prefer y>x
ycz12
Smash Ace
Hmm, I usually use up + clawed Y. It's hard for me to get to B quickly otherwise =/
Actually I guess I use my index finger on Y for anything where I have to jump and press B in quick succession. Double missiles, ledgehop double lasers, double shines, ledgehop bomb pull as Young Link.
Actually I guess I use my index finger on Y for anything where I have to jump and press B in quick succession. Double missiles, ledgehop double lasers, double shines, ledgehop bomb pull as Young Link.
DarrellD
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 527
Just play smart and safe. Wavedash out of shield is probably your best option to deal with pikas approach for when they over shoot you. Also, Up-b out is ok since pikas weight is really awkward from what ive experienced. People DI out to the skull bashin up smashin. Just run around with a charge shot at all times for edge guarding, it really makes it a lot easier to take the4 stock when the chips are down.
When your edge guarding pika, Always grab the edge. Its a lot similar to doing it against sheik, the up-b wont grab the edge for a bit if you take it and roll off or refresh your invincibility. Then ledge hop and SHOOT him. Thats all i got.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I keep posting from my ipod but they never show up. Anyhow, I have a question about UpB oos.
When spacies are shine pressuring I normally try to UpBoos before they get their shine off, right after or before they land their aerial. Is this when I'm supposed to UpBoos? Or am I supposed to wait until after they shine?
When spacies are shine pressuring I normally try to UpBoos before they get their shine off, right after or before they land their aerial. Is this when I'm supposed to UpBoos? Or am I supposed to wait until after they shine?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
It literally depends on the opening the spacee gives you to upB. It is EXTREMELY hard, actually, to upB out of perfect drillshine pressure from a Fox (it's a lot easier to get out of Falco's pressure because it's not a 'true drill').
So, about punishing the opening given to you by the spacee, here's how it works:
Whenever any character SHFFL's, he can aerial either early or late. If a spacee aerials as late as possible, the shieldstun he induces can carry him far enough into his L-cancel lag that his shine will take over before you can do anything OoS other than roll or spot-dodge. This applies to almost ANY shielding character (except for Samus, Bowser, and G&W, who can also upB).
However, if a spacee aerials as early as possible, the shieldstun induced by the shine will carry him far enough into his jumpsquat and aerial startup that his aerial will take over before you can do anything OoS other than roll or spot-dodge. This also applies to ANY shielding character (except for the same chars as listed above, who can upB).
So, the openings? Well, you can probably figure it out for yourself. If the spacee always aerials late to create seamless pressure from aerial-to-shine, there will be a 'hole' in his pressure going from shine-to-aerial. Likewise, if he always aerials early to create seamless pressure from shine-to-aerial, there will be a 'hole' in his pressure going from aerial-to-shine. These holes are where you have sufficient time to get through jumpsquat and aerial or WD OoS.
Obviously, the timing of the aerial can be tweaked to be somewhere in between aerialing as late as possible and doing so as early as possible so that the pressure is not routine, and responding to it has to be different on a case-by-case basis. Good spacee players will do this. A careless spacee will use the same timing most of the time, allowing one to figure out his rhythm and punish him early and easily.
So, about punishing the opening given to you by the spacee, here's how it works:
Whenever any character SHFFL's, he can aerial either early or late. If a spacee aerials as late as possible, the shieldstun he induces can carry him far enough into his L-cancel lag that his shine will take over before you can do anything OoS other than roll or spot-dodge. This applies to almost ANY shielding character (except for Samus, Bowser, and G&W, who can also upB).
However, if a spacee aerials as early as possible, the shieldstun induced by the shine will carry him far enough into his jumpsquat and aerial startup that his aerial will take over before you can do anything OoS other than roll or spot-dodge. This also applies to ANY shielding character (except for the same chars as listed above, who can upB).
So, the openings? Well, you can probably figure it out for yourself. If the spacee always aerials late to create seamless pressure from aerial-to-shine, there will be a 'hole' in his pressure going from shine-to-aerial. Likewise, if he always aerials early to create seamless pressure from shine-to-aerial, there will be a 'hole' in his pressure going from aerial-to-shine. These holes are where you have sufficient time to get through jumpsquat and aerial or WD OoS.
Obviously, the timing of the aerial can be tweaked to be somewhere in between aerialing as late as possible and doing so as early as possible so that the pressure is not routine, and responding to it has to be different on a case-by-case basis. Good spacee players will do this. A careless spacee will use the same timing most of the time, allowing one to figure out his rhythm and punish him early and easily.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Ah thank you for this. So early aerials I have a hole to upboos before the shine, late aerials I have a hole to upboos after the shine.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
That's actually not how it works. A spacee can just do late-shine-early and there will be no notable hole directly before or after the shine. There WILL be a hole somewhere, though. As I said, spacees can vary their aerial timings to fit their purposes, and aerials don't have to be as early or late as possible either, so that screws with hole sizes and placements. There can also be 'two small holes' or 'one big hole'. I have more coming, so stay tuned. This is a topic I have great interest in.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I hope the mods here bear with me, because I may end up double or even triple posting.
First off, I edited my post above. There were actually a couple things wrong with it. For one, every time I said Samus can roll, she can also upB OoS. Anyway, a couple more things before I go to bed:
Fox's dair is the exception to the 'rules' I specified above because his dair is a multi-hitting drill. With it, he can receive the benefits of attacking both as early and as late as possible. Luckily, no single hit of his dair induces as much shieldstun as the powerful single hit of Falco's dair. Still, I believe that perfect Fox shield pressure is much harder to escape from than perfect Falco pressure, but Falco can net a greater reward off of a successful hit.
Now iRobbin, I'm not sure if I fully understood your question, but Samus can actually upB OoS at any of these points. The information I gave mostly applies to OTHER actions OoS, but it also describes the leniency with which you would be able to upB OoS in specific situations.
A lot of players like to wait until their shield is hit by something before they act OoS for fear of their action being stuffed if they move earlier. As such, if a spacee aerials early, it is usually caught and punished really easily. However, to counter this while taking advantage of the mentality of most shielding players that I revealed, attackers often will delay their aerials. At any point during the SH, they can release their attack, and this knowledge keeps the shielders glued in their shields and allows the attacker to pull off the tightest form of aerialshine pressure. This is NOT safe, however. If you know the spacee is going to delay his aerial, you can simply act OoS early and stuff it.
First off, I edited my post above. There were actually a couple things wrong with it. For one, every time I said Samus can roll, she can also upB OoS. Anyway, a couple more things before I go to bed:
Fox's dair is the exception to the 'rules' I specified above because his dair is a multi-hitting drill. With it, he can receive the benefits of attacking both as early and as late as possible. Luckily, no single hit of his dair induces as much shieldstun as the powerful single hit of Falco's dair. Still, I believe that perfect Fox shield pressure is much harder to escape from than perfect Falco pressure, but Falco can net a greater reward off of a successful hit.
Now iRobbin, I'm not sure if I fully understood your question, but Samus can actually upB OoS at any of these points. The information I gave mostly applies to OTHER actions OoS, but it also describes the leniency with which you would be able to upB OoS in specific situations.
A lot of players like to wait until their shield is hit by something before they act OoS for fear of their action being stuffed if they move earlier. As such, if a spacee aerials early, it is usually caught and punished really easily. However, to counter this while taking advantage of the mentality of most shielding players that I revealed, attackers often will delay their aerials. At any point during the SH, they can release their attack, and this knowledge keeps the shielders glued in their shields and allows the attacker to pull off the tightest form of aerialshine pressure. This is NOT safe, however. If you know the spacee is going to delay his aerial, you can simply act OoS early and stuff it.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Here is some REALLY convenient info regarding shield pressure, especially spacee pressure:
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...roject-updated-8-13-07-now-with-color.109595/
Now, I'd like you to notice something wrt Falco. Even when he performs the latest dair possible to achieve the tightest dairshine he can, there are still two frames during his L-cancel lag where you are not in shieldstun. These 2 frames usually are not enough to do anything other than roll or spot-dodge for most characters. Even the spacees, with their 1-frame Shines, can't use Shine OoS to escape this pressure before the shine. Samus, however, CAN. Keep in mind that upB OoS is just a JC upB. This means that Samus must go through only one frame of jumpsquat before she can cancel the jumpsquat into upB. The upB has invincibility on frame 1, which lasts until frame 5, and its attacking hitbox comes out on frame 4. In other words, as long Samus can start her upB, she's guaranteed to get an invincible hitbox out that carries over seamlessly from her frame-1 invincibility.
The implications of this are tremendous for Samus. It means that, even in the two frames of no shield stun in Falco's tightest form of dairshine pressure, Samus can still upB out, using one frame for jumpsquat and the other frame to start the upB. Once the upB is started, it will probably beat out anything Falco does, trading at worst if performed well. This is why Samus has one of the BEST OoS games in all of Melee. Nothing truly keeps her trapped in her shield. If she wants to get out, she WILL get out. As you can surmise, if Samus can upB out of late dair > shine, then she can probably get out of any of the 'early-late' traps with upB. The timing is sitll tight, though, which is why I mentioned the leniency involved. A lot of times, it may 'feel' like you're stuck in shield during a certain fast shield string because you're (understandably) missing those couple of frames where you can get out.
Now, upB's hitbox and frame data is perfect for ensuring beat-outs or trades, but in my experience, I find that one of the best ways to hit the spacees, especially Fox, OoS with upB is to actually trade with it on their aerial. Why? Well, the spacees get flung up in a good bit of hitstun from even just the first hit of upB. However, Samus usually can't take advantage of it because she is going through the entire Screw Attack motions herself. By trading, Samus gets knocked out of the upB animation early with minimal KB and the spacee is still flung up into the air, leaving Samus completely free to follow up.
I personally actually aim for trades for this reason sometimes when I know the opponent is going to dairshine and it works! If it's Fox, Samus gets knocked lightly out of upB and has all the time in the world to retaliate. If it's Falco, at low %'s, it's the same as with Fox but with a little more hitstun for Samus, and at mid-high %'s, you just have to make sure you tech the ground. This 'cancelled upB' combos into pretty much anything way more reliably than the full upB does.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...roject-updated-8-13-07-now-with-color.109595/
Now, I'd like you to notice something wrt Falco. Even when he performs the latest dair possible to achieve the tightest dairshine he can, there are still two frames during his L-cancel lag where you are not in shieldstun. These 2 frames usually are not enough to do anything other than roll or spot-dodge for most characters. Even the spacees, with their 1-frame Shines, can't use Shine OoS to escape this pressure before the shine. Samus, however, CAN. Keep in mind that upB OoS is just a JC upB. This means that Samus must go through only one frame of jumpsquat before she can cancel the jumpsquat into upB. The upB has invincibility on frame 1, which lasts until frame 5, and its attacking hitbox comes out on frame 4. In other words, as long Samus can start her upB, she's guaranteed to get an invincible hitbox out that carries over seamlessly from her frame-1 invincibility.
The implications of this are tremendous for Samus. It means that, even in the two frames of no shield stun in Falco's tightest form of dairshine pressure, Samus can still upB out, using one frame for jumpsquat and the other frame to start the upB. Once the upB is started, it will probably beat out anything Falco does, trading at worst if performed well. This is why Samus has one of the BEST OoS games in all of Melee. Nothing truly keeps her trapped in her shield. If she wants to get out, she WILL get out. As you can surmise, if Samus can upB out of late dair > shine, then she can probably get out of any of the 'early-late' traps with upB. The timing is sitll tight, though, which is why I mentioned the leniency involved. A lot of times, it may 'feel' like you're stuck in shield during a certain fast shield string because you're (understandably) missing those couple of frames where you can get out.
Now, upB's hitbox and frame data is perfect for ensuring beat-outs or trades, but in my experience, I find that one of the best ways to hit the spacees, especially Fox, OoS with upB is to actually trade with it on their aerial. Why? Well, the spacees get flung up in a good bit of hitstun from even just the first hit of upB. However, Samus usually can't take advantage of it because she is going through the entire Screw Attack motions herself. By trading, Samus gets knocked out of the upB animation early with minimal KB and the spacee is still flung up into the air, leaving Samus completely free to follow up.
I personally actually aim for trades for this reason sometimes when I know the opponent is going to dairshine and it works!
If it's Fox, Samus gets knocked lightly out of upB and has all the time in the world to retaliate. If it's Falco, at low %'s, it's the same as with Fox but with a little more hitstun for Samus, and at mid-high %'s, you just have to make sure you tech the ground. This 'cancelled upB' combos into pretty much anything way more reliably than the full upB does.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I feel a candidate for the Samus index thread