Exploring SF4-style Option Selects in Melee.

[brett824]

If you've played or watched any Street Fighter in recent years, you're probably familiar with the term "Option Select". If you haven't, the best way to explain them is that they're a single sequence of inputs that act differently depending on the situation they're used in. They're a pretty big deal in SF, so I decided to try and TAS some OS-like things in SSBM. My examples aren't particularly practical or useful, but I decided to post them at least to get people thinking about stuff. Sorry if stuff like this has already been found. The videos are all short clips without sound because muxing the sound back into Dolphin recordings is a pain.

Falco example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lOndI4W4j0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00O1HbJs9ac

While they're both very underwhelming videos on their own, Falco is performing the same series of inputs in both videos. If the shine doesn't connect with anything, a waveshine comes out. If the shine hits/is shielded, a short hop comes out.

Fox example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9AtnW6APsU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXEOyGLPo2U

Same deal here, except changed to a double shine. When it's shielded, a double shine comes out, but on a backroll a waveshine chases it down.

The basic idea here is that you abuse the hitlag from shine connecting. The first jump is input, but nothing comes out because of the hitlag, and then you input another jump which will only come out if that hitlag happened. I have the detailed breakdown of the inputs, if anyone's interested.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd like to see a detailed breakdown of the inputs, this is actually pretty cool.

 

[brett824]

The inputs for the first video are (frame-by-frame, "-" is no input):

Spoiler

1. Down + B
2. -
3. -
4. X or Y (if the shine connected, this will still be hitlag and won't come out)
5. -
6. -
7. -
8. X or Y (this is the first frame you can jump if the shine connected, and is still prejump frames of the other jump)
9. wavedash downforward
10 -18. -
19. Did a jab here to demonstrate.

Second:

Spoiler

1. Down + B
2. -
3. -
4. X or Y
5. -
6. -
7. wavedash + jump (this is tricky but it's the first frame you can wavedash, but you can't double jump so the wavedash takes priority)
8. -
9. -
10. Down+B

Certain parts of it are frame perfect but there's leeway on certain inputs I think. Too tired to think about it right now.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

There are di/asdi buffers and some things like this with ics as well.

Really knowing the backwards grab range of pichu makes chain throwing basically 16 different directions the choice of 3 bewteen 30-80%

 

[mooki]

That's some next level ****.

 

[Signia]

Wow, this is amazing. I knew option selects were possible, but not like this. This deserves way more attention.

Try this option select for powershielding?

Tap shield, tap forward, and hold shield at the timing of when the falco laser shield stun would end. If the powershield succeeds, you dash instantly out of powershield and shield again, where you might jump, wd, or grab out of shield. If the powershield fails, the tap forward won't make you roll because you're in shieldstun, where tapping forward does nothing, and you'll continue shielding until you react to the situation.

You could use this to option select powershield into anything, though.

 

[dkuo]

@ Signia im pretty sure people do this with wavedash. this was back during pound 5 when i just started but i think amsah told me that dj nintendo told him about this

if your powershield succeeds you do a potentially instant wd out of powershield (depends on how long you wait before inputting wd), while if your powershield fails you hold shield or wd (again, depends on how long you wait before inputting wd)

also lol "out of powershield" = oops

 

[Signia]

Yeah, I think it only works for powershielding projectiles though. The only advantage you get out of powershielding normal attacks is being able to do anything out of shield, since it allows you to interrupt the shield release animation.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Thing is it really only benefits at long/mid ranges with people with people with fast shield drops like puff, zedla, peach, maybe sheik? And it would be a horrible option select for marth/roy simplely because they have the slowest shield drops in the game and for marth it would be faster to wd in place oos then to just drop it.

Also as say falcon to use this would be horrible if You missed the powershield because then someone run You over lazily with proity simplely cause f falconhe shielded.

Also i don't think You can dash out of a powershield i've always just naired oos or projectiled back to stack the pressure. Now if this was close range where You're straight up running full force in going to powershield to combo and You couldn't reach it in time for whatever reason maybe? It's just relieing to much on bad projectile spacing and the fact You'll hit it.

Honestly if You can powershield run i'd rather do it vs marth's fair because powershielding has more knockback on shield but vs non projectiles the window to powershield is much greater like twice that of projectiles.


Just was to niche when dd is an option that generally covers a lot more

 

[Acryte]

From M2K's Statistics list.
Shield Release Recovery Time - this rates how much of a lag there is after you release the shield button (R, L, and sometimes used is Z).

Group A
---14 frames recovery time
---3 characters: Jigglypuff / Peach / Zelda

Group B
---15 frames recovery time
---14 characters: DK / Dr. Mario / Falco / Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Link / Luigi / Mario / Ness / Pichu / Pikachu / Sheik / Young Link

Group C
---16 frames recovery time
---8 characters: Bowser / Captain Falcon / Ganondorf / Marth / Mewtwo / Mr. Game & Watch / Roy / Samus

Group D
---17 frames recovery time
---1 character: Yoshi

The difference between the fastest shield-release and the slowest non-yoshi shield release is a difference of 2 frames

 

[brett824]

This one worked out a lot better in my head than what it turned out to be. It's... something, I guess.

Jigglypuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=270hi3dmkYw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23k0hCsG0ts

Inputs:

Spoiler

A
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B+Right
B
B+Right
B
B+Jump
B
B
B
B
B
B+Right
B
B+Right
B
B
-
Down+B

The held B input over all those frames is just charging the rollout. It doesn't really do much good charged or uncharged.

 

[Bones0]

I don't think any of your current examples are very applicable, but option selecting based on hitlag is very inspirational, so I will definitely start brainstorming situations this could be useful in. Also, it should be pointed out that move staling affects hitlag so you may have wider windows for certain OSs while others won't be possible because if the first option is executed too late, hitlag may end to early.

 

[brett824]

Yeah, I definitely don't think any of my examples right now have any use in a real match, but I'm just brainstorming methods and places for option selects.

Definitely didn't think about the fact that staling affects hitlag. That's an interesting wrench thrown into thinking about applying this to a real match.

 

[Acryte]

Pretty cool, I'd like to see the inputs broken down with possible frame windows for pressing, as well as frame windows for releasing buttons so that you know how much leniency you have with each press/release.

 

[Problem2]

The easiest and most applicable option select in this game is tapping shield just before your recovery grabs the ledge. This will result in a wall-tech if someone tries to on-stage edge guard. If not, then nothing happens.

 

[hectohertz]

mofo had a really cool option select post about autocancel aerials and techs

theres the "obvious" one of OS'ing a ledgetech from a recovery (most good players always input the ledgetech, which is usually a sign its an OS)

PS dash is a legit OS, since you can dash OOPS (heh)

does this count as an OS: the same inputs can trigger cc->grab and ps->grab (tilt down, L, A), depending on if shield comes up in time

 

[SAUS]

Would this count?

My friend, who plays Yoshi, does his hax dashes with an up and outward air dodge. If he gets the timing perfect, it still wavelands and puts him back on the edge (I think he still needs to fast fall but whatever). But if he messes up the timing, he air dodges up and away, allowing him to grab the edge after the air dodge. It requires him to screw up, but it covers his ass in case he does (rather than air dodging down and away or directly away and falling to his death).

Inputting a ledge-tech automatically is definitely a good one. I do it subconsciously now lol. It's saved me so many times.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

very interesting

 

[Bones0]

mofo had a really cool option select post about autocancel aerials and techs

theres the "obvious" one of OS'ing a ledgetech from a recovery (most good players always input the ledgetech, which is usually a sign its an OS)

PS dash is a legit OS, since you can dash OOPS (heh)

does this count as an OS: the same inputs can trigger cc->grab and ps->grab (tilt down, L, A), depending on if shield comes up in time

Dash out of powershield? That's not a thing...

Would this count?

My friend, who plays Yoshi, does his hax dashes with an up and outward air dodge. If he gets the timing perfect, it still wavelands and puts him back on the edge (I think he still needs to fast fall but whatever). But if he messes up the timing, he air dodges up and away, allowing him to grab the edge after the air dodge. It requires him to screw up, but it covers his *** in case he does (rather than air dodging down and away or directly away and falling to his death).

Inputting a ledge-tech automatically is definitely a good one. I do it subconsciously now lol. It's saved me so many times.

How does he Hax dash with an upward and outward air dodge?

 

[hectohertz]

Dash out of powershield? That's not a thing...

oh **** you are correct. eh you could probably do something instead with one of the actions you can cancel GUARD_OFF into. but im not sure, might not be anything here.

here's a much better (although stupid) example of an OS (copypasta from the FB thread):

fsmash -> fsmash/grab

how to input: first you fsmash. then you input the second fsmash during the window where if the first one hits, you will still be in recovery (remember when an attack connects, there is hitlag which slows things down), but if it whiffs, you will be done with recovery and the second fsmash will come out. you input the grab after the second fsmash (far enough after that if the first fsmash hits, the grab will be after the recovery is over)

result: if you hit the first fsmash, you do fsmash->grab. if you whiff the first fsmash, you do fsmash->fsmash

note: there are actually some useful variations of this kind of idea (using hitlag to OS the second move based on whether the first one hits or whiffs). exercise to the reader: show me your moves (that option select in this fashion and is useful/practical)!

 

[Bones0]

You can just hitconfirm probably every fsmash in the game though... I've also never heard of anyone consistently linking fsmash into another fsmash or grab whether the first was blocked, dodged, or hit.

 

[Twinkles]

he's just using an example of the idea bones

using the same thinking, you can probably find a practical option select

 

[hectohertz]

yeah it was just to illustrate the idea, which i think is fairly general and actually could be applied. obviously fsmash and grab make no sense as the options

 

[The Mofo]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tech-autocancel-option-select.338244/

 

[Sashimi]

How does he Hax dash with an upward and outward air dodge?

It's another one of those weird Yoshi things. His double jump has weird stage collision stuff that lets me air dodge without worrying about SDing:

Don't have an example of the missed timing, but this is what it looks like when done successfully:

http://smashboards.com/threads/tech-autocancel-option-select.338244/

This is super cool... I was wondering recently if I could do something like this with my double jump land (Yoshi/Peach double jump low enough to the ground that their downwards movement makes them land without the 4-frame landing animation).

 

[Bones0]

It's another one of those weird Yoshi things. His double jump has weird stage collision stuff that lets me air dodge without worrying about SDing:

Don't have an example of the missed timing, but this is what it looks like when done successfully:

Yeah, I mean I've done it with Yoshi, but I have to airdodge down and back. I can't imagine any amount of stage collision detection allowing an upward airdodge to waveland. It's hard enough to get horizontal airdodges to WL.

 

[Sashimi]

@ Bones0
I can't really prove it over the internet, but I made that GIF holding up and away for the air dodge. If you have access to the debug menu, you can try it with this timing:

Spoiler

1 Grab Ledge
9 Let go
10 Fastfall
12 Double Jump forward
31 Air Dodge
32 [Fall]
34-37 Fastfall
38 [Grab Ledge]

Directly upwards doesn't work, but 45 degrees away from the stage does.

 

[hectohertz]

new yoshi tech. HYPE

 

[SpiderMad]

The easiest and most applicable option select in this game is tapping shield just before your recovery grabs the ledge. This will result in a wall-tech if someone tries to on-stage edge guard. If not, then nothing happens.

tapping shield makes me think you think it's light press to tech