Exactly how big of a problem are peachs bad matchups?

[MadeYouLook]

For someone thinking about maining peach? is there really any downsides to maining peach?

 

[MTL Kyle]

She loses a lot of matchups for dumb reasons and she gets harder and harder to play with as your level gets higher.

 

[Sycorax]

Peach is definitely at the lower end of top tier, but she's completely viable. People like to complain about matchups, but she can handle any of the top tier matchups except maybe puff. Armada played the Puff matchup like twice 5 years ago and then gave up on it. The sets were close, too. Fox is hard too but doable.

 

[WhizPower]

Peach is definitely at the lower end of top tier, but she's completely viable. People like to complain about matchups, but she can handle any of the top tier matchups except maybe puff. Armada played the Puff matchup like twice 5 years ago and then gave up on it. The sets were close, too. Fox is hard too but doable.

There's no way Puff is harder for Peach than Fox. Everyone thinks it's impossible because of Armada but Armada just hates the matchup. As you said, Armada played it like twice and then gave up. He never really tried to learn the matchup properly. Fighting Puff can be very frustrating because you have to lame her out, and that's obviously not Armada's style, but if you do the matchup really isn't that bad. I'd argue that even Marth is harder if the matchup is played optimally. She can definitely handle all three though.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

If you doubt Peach yourself, you'll not do well anyways. This of course applies to any character. Peach can handle basically everyone. She's technical though, so you will need to practice. She's not Fox level tech, but still needs dedication to be as consistent with her tech like Armada.

 

[NightFox54]

There's no way Puff is harder for Peach than Fox. Everyone thinks it's impossible because of Armada but Armada just hates the matchup. As you said, Armada played it like twice and then gave up. He never really tried to learn the matchup properly. Fighting Puff can be very frustrating because you have to lame her out, and that's obviously not Armada's style, but if you do the matchup really isn't that bad. I'd argue that even Marth is harder if the matchup is played optimally. She can definitely handle all three though.

Fellow believer in Peach v. puff here. I find not enough peaches float in above puff or sneak in below her. Dair leads to more aerials, uair and usmash are kill moves. Fsmash for anti air mixups, turnips for neutral.

But yeah, Marf is my least favorite princess. super lame :'(

 

[MTL Kyle]

Everyone thinks it's impossible because of Armada but Armada just hates the matchup.

And so does every Peach.

"Hi, I'm a Peach main and I got a read on Fox!"
60%~100% and probably and edgeguard to finish the stock

"Hi, I'm a Peach main and I got a read on Puff!"
17%, puts Puff in a place where you can't do much anyway and he can come back and do his game.

Yes, Fox ****s up Peach and Peach ****s up Fox, but it's harder on our side, but Puff ****s up Peach and... that's all.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

I think Armada stopped just short of solving the Jigglypuff problem. Before he used Peach against HBox for the very last time recently, I saw a few matches where he definitely had some anti-Puff tech in the works such as solid rest punishes and use of fsmash.
If you watch the Armada vs Hbox (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpsqXkZsFtc) it is clear that Armada went into the matchup with this battle plan: find space for turnips, use fsmash as anti-air, don't use dash attack or dsmash when puff is grounded to avoid rests, trade aerials as often as possible and lastly, wavedash in and out of shield.

If there ever was a matchup where Double Jump Landing could possibly be important to winning I suspect it is Peach vs Puff, watch the video again and see how many times DJL would have been so much faster than Armada's wavedash choice instead.

Parasol seems like it could also be a solid option to poke Jigglypuff out of the air for free percent and to disrupt her air game. Unlike other top tiers, Jiggs is too floaty to do anything after being hit and generally gets pushed away quite far which can buy time for more turnips.

Rest punishes seem under explored. This is something I'd really like to look into more.

Ftilt seems like it could possibly be a thing in this matchup as like Fsmash it covers that approach angle Jiggs comes in at but it is faster. It may work in conjunction with DJL as a counter-attack to aerials on shield (just theory-crafting here)

Unfortunately Armada has decided to abandon the matchup permanently, and for the rest of us it is rare to encounter this matchup in the first place to get any new insights, oh well.

 

[NightFox54]

Rest punishes seem under explored. This is something I'd really like to look into more.

I made you a thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYFfl2JVJWE


I was having a discussion with someone about matchups.

Puff does not have a whole lot that is better than Peach- Peach/Puff is as difficult as it is because the matchup is not volatile at all. Peach may pull a weird turnip or two, Puff may get a crazy read into rest. But other than that, the matchup is 95% neutral game. And puff barely wins the neutral/punish.

Think of it like this- if I am barely worse than my friend, I'd rather play a Bo3 than a Bo2001. Why? Because, over time, the law of averages takes over and the best man wins. If there are less chances to prove yourself, there are better odds of an upset.

Because of this, I think even very minor improvements in the metagame will boost Peach's matchup by a lot.

If PeachBoards can come up with enough tools, we might even tilt this into a really doable matchup.

 

[CAUP]

What about bair?!?!?!

It smothers peach.

I don't think I'll ever believe it's a doable matchup but I'll contribute if I can.

 

[NightFox54]

What about bair?!?!?!

It smothers peach.

I don't think I'll ever believe it's a doable matchup but I'll contribute if I can.

You have a few options:

1) Watch their vertical spacing, and either fullhop above them or sneak under with a crouch-> DA/Usmash/nair/whatever is appropriate
2) Run away, pull turnips
3) Space really carefully, DA them as they fade back from you

 

[MTL Kyle]

You have a few options:

1) Watch their vertical spacing, and either fullhop above them or sneak under with a crouch-> DA/Usmash/nair/whatever is appropriate
2) Run away, pull turnips
3) Space really carefully, DA them as they fade back from you

Never go above Puff. EVER. It forces you to be in a place where you can't CC and you can't do anything but hope for a lucky trade.

Pulling turnips is hard because Puff game against Peach is literally Puff 101. Spacing your OP disjoint, walling them to a corner, knock them out of stage and systematically reduce their options.

Dash Attack as they fade away is not very smart. Shield > Rest > Puff happily with one stock ahead camping the **** out of you. Dash Attack is really good but really risky.

_____________________________________


Listen, I have played this match-ups more than ANY other match-up in the game (not that it should count as validation for anything, but try considering this).
As you level up, you realize in how many ways Puff can pressure you and how ****ed you are in situations.

Armada came in with new technology with the match-up but it was not enough for a reason. It's really hard mentally, really hard conceptually and really hard to execute it. It's a match-up meant to fail.

 

[NightFox54]

Never go above Puff. EVER.

Never say never- Justin Bieber

It's definitely a mixup- but what is Puff doing that you're crouch cancelling? Not much, I hope for their sake.

Pulling turnips is hard because Puff...

Pulling turnips is hard against anyone. Use your DD and Double Jump Lands to win that space.

Dash attack as they fade away is not very smart.

Not if you overuse it, I agree! It's a tight spacing- coming in directly after the bair- but it works quite well when you do it right. Practice doing it right, and it's not a problem.

It's a matchup meant to fail.

With that attitude it is!

 

[MTL Kyle]

It's definitely a mixup

No, it's just you putting yourself in a bad situation. It's not a mix-up, it's failing to play the stage correctly.

but what is Puff doing that you're crouch cancelling?

Pressing buttons when I'm at CC %. They have to know when press buttons or they are getting punished.

Pulling turnips is hard against anyone. Use your DD and Double Jump Lands to win that space.

I don't think you know how this matchup works.

Puff >> Wants to get stage to **** you up offstage cuz he can
Peach >> Has to hold her ground, pull out a turnip and not give up stage, put herself in a throwing position where she can confirm 20% hits with a projectile that might fail because LOL DISJOINTS THAT TRADE WITH IT XD

Maybe a video of you playing it would help explain ?

Not if you overuse it, I agree! It's a tight spacing- coming in directly after the bair- but it works quite well when you do it right. Practice doing it right, and it's not a problem.

Wow, a punish for fade-away back air ? You are the next Armada in the coming!

No.

With that attitude it is!

Why every account registered in 2014 is super hopeful in Peach potential and simply denies that she has bad properties. ?

This game has been played for years, there are things that change and others not that much. Theorycrafting for that matchup was always a struggle and it still is. There is no magic formula that will make things better such as "train dash attacking better XD" or "bair makes your entire body a hitbox lmao".

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Ok this is ridiculous. Both of you have different opinions on the matchup. Some matchups might not be character-based but rather player based. Puff could be as bad as Armada says it is, or he could just hate Puff that much considering how he cringes when punished as a Fox against her. Also, both of you are registered for 2014, that just makes the point irrelevant. Yes, Peach is not perfect, but she's not completely optimized either. To say that this matchup is set in stone is not likely. I do think that Puff has the advantage here right now, but Puff was easier to develop with the emphasis on her good hitboxes since not all of them are that amazing as compared to Uair and Bair. Peach took a long time to develop to where she is now in comparison to where she was 7-9 years ago. She still has much to develop like basically all of the top 8. Besides, it's not like the Peach players that believe in her in this MU think that it would be easy to just turn it around. It's also not productive to put down people.

such as "train dash attacking better XD" or "bair makes your entire body a hitbox lmao".

 

[NightFox54]

Thank you, Retro. I'm trying to have a productive discussion here, I'm all I'm getting is salt.

MTL Kyle-- fite me irl if u tihnk ur so tuff
What's with the harshness? Can we not discuss this rationally?

 

[CAUP]

Uhh, match ups aren't based on opinion XD Yes, some people are better at some match ups than others but at TAS levels either two characters win, lose, or tie.

What you quoted to deal with back air is just not right.

 

[COB]

Thank you, Retro. I'm trying to have a productive discussion here, I'm all I'm getting is salt.

MTL Kyle-- fite me irl if u tihnk ur so tuff
What's with the harshness? Can we not discuss this rationally?

Props on the video dude. I find this matchup to be very hard and the player that beats me out of our state tournaments is a puff main. However, I also recognize I have not optimized my character and especially not in the matchup. If a Peach player cannot consistently punish rest then they can't complain IMO

 

[NightFox54]

Can we discuss it, then? What is your answer to bair?

 

[NightFox54]

Thanks COB :D

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

My quote was not talking about dealing with the Bair at all. I was showing what I meant by putting down people. MUs aren't completely based on opinion, but how people deal with the MU influences how they view it. There are many things that are accounted for as facts, but opinions are not to be overlooked. Evolution of MUs stem from development of the character, which in turn comes from opinions on the character and how the matchup should go. If this did not occur, there would be less development, and more set in stone. This is what I'm saying.

 

[NightFox54]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcpgzWQOF3o

Here's a video of me from when I had *Very* little matchup experience. Things I saw, in light of this discussion:

1) Dair->nair kill move
2) Pulling turnips at will
3) Safer getting back to stage than versus, say, Marth/Sheik
4) Shield vs. CC- perhaps Peach should drop shield more?? That would allow her to CC things as MTL Kyle is saying
5) LOL trying to shield grab bairs
6) Didn't get rested- this is what happens when Snex beats the dash attack on shield out of you.

 

[CAUP]

1) If you are hitting puff with dair, the puff SUCKS
2) If you are pulling turnips at will, the puff SUCKS
3) True
4) Might also be true. But then she loses the war of attrition- the game

My own list
1) Armada says this matchup is unwinnable. He might not be right but he is not completely wrong. This. Matchup. SUCKS. Nothing will ever change that. If you think it's okay, you're probably not playing good puff players.
2) Instead of focusing on weaknesses which will only be improved marginally, we should be focusing on areas that can actually be improved like almost any other peach matchup XD
3) My answer to bair is fox

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

If you're thinking that not covering weaknesses while trying to focus on something else is going to improve a character, the character will never improve. To be quite frank, any matchup against Puff will suck anyways. Besides, most players, including Peach players, like to be aggressive, but Puff enjoys being defensive in many MUs, except for Spacies, so Peach has to play defensively as well. It's the same with any defensive MU. If the opponent is anticipating your options, you don't just go in all the time unless the character is just that better. The logic of just focusing on anything not covering weaknesses is just as good as stating that to defeat Puff's Bair is to throw out a Grizzley Bear.

Edit: I'm not saying neglect improving anything else other than weaknesses. I'm just saying that weaknesses need to be covered especially.

 

[NightFox54]

1) If you are hitting puff with dair, the puff SUCKS
2) If you are pulling turnips at will, the puff SUCKS

This guy is certainly no slouch, I'll say that.


Other than that, I have nothing more to say. I hoped for a discussion about how to beat puff, not a bunch of people unwilling to try.

 

[MTL Kyle]

MTL Kyle-- fite me irl if u tihnk ur so tuff
What's with the harshness? Can we not discuss this rationally?

With that attitude it is!

Mary Poppins meets Descartes over there.

Some matchups might not be character-based but rather player based.

If you are theorycrafting, you are eliminating the human factor as much as possible so you can have a reasonable conclusion about how to proceed and what mistakes you should paying attention to.

You don't really know what you are talking about.

It's also not productive to put down people.

It's not productive to act like a dumbass and extend Dunning-Kruger to insane levels because you go 1-2 in your locals.
It's not productive to derail the thread and think I'm trying to fight you or offend you when my concern is not being kawaii on a forum, but discuss and talk about matchups.
50% of your post is irrelevant and you should focus more on thinking instead of asking me to stop.

 

[MTL Kyle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcpgzWQOF3o

Here's a video of me from when I had *Very* little matchup experience. Things I saw, in light of this discussion:

1) Dair->nair kill move
2) Pulling turnips at will
3) Safer getting back to stage than versus, say, Marth/Sheik
4) Shield vs. CC- perhaps Peach should drop shield more?? That would allow her to CC things as MTL Kyle is saying
5) LOL trying to shield grab bairs
6) Didn't get rested- this is what happens when Snex beats the dash attack on shield out of you.

1) Dair > Nair is jank and shouldn't be working even against a mid-level puff lel
2) Pulling turnips = giving Puff space to wall you. Turnips are essential in the matchup, yes. Good luck plucking them LOL
3) It's different. Unlike Marth, Puff doesn't do the 1-2-3 to edgeguard or punish Peach. She just hits you and puts you in a position where having the float or the jump doesn't matter that much.

4) You shouldn't be shielding as much you think. You should try to get center stage as much as possible. If you see ~Armadas new peach tech on puff~, he will WD OoS every single time he gets hit on shield and can't punish with a moving FC Nair OoS, because it's free positioning in the stage. With the stage positioning he gets from that, he gets some other hits and pulls turnips. You don't wanna shield drop simply because shield dropping implies that you are in a platform and Jiggs is under you. Exactly where you don't wanna be.

Also, **** that shield dropping fad that people are going through. 90% of players can't WD OoS properly, but want to implement shield dropping in their game and another huge bunch that can shield drop can't put a hitbox after they do so.

5) LoL trying to shield grab Puff, period. In general, that is not a very good punish, aside from the Dthrow cheese, you have nothing but suboptimal punishes. FC Attack OoS is better in the situations where they can eat a hit.

6) Didn't get rested- this is what happens when Snex beats the dash attack on shield out of you.

Congratulations on playing a mediocre puff and still lose ?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

I made you a thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYFfl2JVJWE

This is a good start, more testing would be needed against human opponents though. I know for certain that the turnip->up smash can be crouch canceled so the up smash doesn't connect.
Rest punishes that have the opponent get hit into the turnip is probably the best starting point.

In any case all of this is anti-Jigglypuff discussion should be in a different thread as it seems there is a lot to say about it.

 

[MTL Kyle]

With this kind of video attached to it, of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1y4-1Ee5R4