Evolution of Brawl

[Meta Ryu]

Hi everyone, I'm just here today to try and stop the madness. Everyones been going crazy lately, what with the "Brawl sucks" , and "screw you Brawl is the fricking ambrosia of the gaming world" etc. etc... So anyway, I'd just like to calm it down a bit by pointing out a very obvious (yet interesting) fact.

Brawl is not Melee.

Yup I said it, it's not the same game. Hell the only thing similar is the characters and ko system. Besides that nothing is the same (Even Final destination is different!!!) and thusly please, please, PLEASE stop comparing the two so freaking closely.

Yes, melee is more competitive, I'll give you that. And yes, various nerfs/buffs and random things (*cough online tourneys) which were left out left us saddened. But on the whole have any of you really been dissapointed? I mean come on, it's like playing the best video game ever, only new for the third freaking time in a row!!! and now to be quite honest it is the most fun oriented out of all the three so far, with not only an intense amount of content but also just the sheer amount of work and love put into the game!

And with that I'll leave you with one last thing, for those who STILL have a bad taste left in their mouth.

Melee is more competitive only cause you want it to be. If we (the players) truly want it bad enough brawl will not only meet melees standards eventually, but certainly surpass it! The game is evolving before our very eyes gentleman (and women) to say that it does not compare to melee is like comapring a newborn son to his father.

Give it time to grow, let new mindgames of new calibur be sewn through the fabrics of our wants and needs and let be honed the greatest edge of skill, love, and effort we have ever seen. be forged through the fires of our passion.

ergo: play more! give it time, and have fun. Brawl will evolve, and we with it.

 

[Eriko]

and we didn't know this already?

 

[Conda]

Dead ****ing Horse.

 

[Meta Ryu]

hey I said it was obvious, but unfortunately the issue still progresses. Thusly I write.

 

[rabbitgod]

Did you seriously start the post by saying that we need to stop comparing the two games and then immediately afterwards compare the two?

 

[East]

Rabbitgod just intelligence canceled you, Meta Ryu

 

[Eriko]

^ I laughed.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Closed.

Please use the search function before making threads like this, pl0x.

Smooth Criminal

 

[gods_basement]

hey I said it was obvious, but unfortunately the issue still progresses. Thusly I write.

thusly is an entirely redundant and stupid word.

i'll summarize op

BRAWL=/=MELEE 2.0

and

BRAWL= COMPETITIVE IF WE WANT IT TO BE.

we havent heard this before.

 

[AquaTech]

I used to think Brawl sucked when I first played it. Now, after a month of Brawl every weekend and not touching Melee, I can't imagine any other way.

To those who say Brawl is too easy or "not competitive," you'd better win every single match you play with that attitude.

 

[Tristan_win]

As one of my friends had stated many times before

Brawl is a game

Melee is an art.

Until this changes Brawl will never be regarded at least within my mine eyes as good or better then Melee.

 

[.kR0]

melee as an art.

Wow.

I know what you really meant by that but that was a really, really bad way of putting it.

 

[.kR0]

Art has survived over thousands and thousands of years. Art styles changed throughout history. Art influences history. It's beautiful.

SSB games is just a game with random nintendo characters with the whole purpose of just knocking each other off a stage that is already pre-built and entirely unoriginal. Essentially, its just programs encoded by developers that moves bunches of pixels depending on which buttons you press. AT's are just discoveries that make these pixels move more efficiently.

You didn't create anything. You're just following the programing of the game that a bunch of devs made for the sole purpose of making money. They never made the game knowing you personally, nor do they care about knowing you at all. The only thing they accomplished (without knowing) was bring a lot of guys in smashboards a good few years of fun. Which I don't find anything wrong with.

But if you really consider this game to be something that important to you in the near future, take 10 minutes and think about what this game really did to you. Sure you probably made good friends and all, but will you probably see them when you guys graduate college and get a career? Probably only a handful, most likely zero.

It's a game. Don't forget that.

If you ever feel like you really need to defend yourself about how others judge you in a videogame, it doesn't matter. Because its not important in the long run. At all.

 

[behemoth]

umm.

Okay, someone's pretentious. Art major much?

Please tell me you've never heard the colloquial use of "<blank> is an art" or "<blank> is an art form".

Calm down a second and then reassess. Tell me if you can see the irony in condescending to someone for taking something too seriously and then, in the same post, taking his response as degrading art.

Oh, and if you seriously think that creating a playstyle which is unique to yourself doesn't parallel creating a piece of work then, again, you need to reassess.

Many of your "serious artists" played games, likely chess among others. What did it ever do for them? Fostered creative thinking, and critical assessment of their surroundings, among other things.

 

[.kR0]

Even if you consider videogames to be art (I personally don't like the notion even though I see the reasoning behind it)

No one plays SSb for its aesthetic purposes, its story, nor its music. Hence this game cannot be considered good art. There is no creative process behind it; its just a compilation of nintendo characters fighting each other. Creative process of beating another player does not make the game itself a creative art form.

Please tell me a good, convincing argument to why you would consider SSB to be good art.

And what do you mean by unique playstyle? Everything pretty much has been discovered in melee. Playstyles are usually all boils down to achieving one simple goal; to knock the guy off the stage. How people do it doesn't matter. Because in the end, no matter how unique you are, in SSB or in any other competitve game it doesn't matter if you don't win.

Which is the biggest flaw.

Videogames can come close to being good art. Videogames spawned a lot of urban/street/pop arts so one day it might be acknowledged as an artform. But SSB at this time? Definetly not.

Also, I hardly believe artists would invest more time playing a chess game rather than sketch, sculpt, or paint. They would use games as only means of refreshing out their ideas.

And no, I'm not a art major. It's called common sense.

 

[Taymond]

Brawl doesn't have to be Melee to have problems. And we can't discuss those problems? The fact that it was apparently designed with a bias that no fighting game should ever be designed with has nothing to do with Melee.

Saying "Brawl is not Melee 2.0" does not take the wind out of valid criticisms of the game.

And honestly? Don't tell people not to compare it to Melee. That's just stupid. Melee is the most similar thing to Brawl that exists. It is the ONLY thing with which we can accurately compare Brawl, save SSB64. What else are we supposed to compare it to? Devil May Cry 4?

 

[.kR0]

Well, you do need immense tech skill if you want to do flashy **** on DMC series.

Haha.

 

[Junpappy]

This thread needs more wavethinking

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

Yeah I love Brawl.

I don't miss Melee. Brawl is far superior than Melee in every way except the 1v1 pro competitive fights because of the Wavedashing and other ATs.

But I'm semi-addicted to Brawl and I'll continue playing and each day my skills are getting better and I'm learning new things.

Btw, free-for-all multiplayer (humans) is awesome!

 

[behemoth]

SSB isn't art. That was the entire point.

Please tell me a good, convincing argument to why you would consider SSB to be art.

And what do you mean by unique playstyle? Everything pretty much has been discovered in melee. Playstyles are usually all boils down to achieving one simple goal; to knock the guy off the stage. How people do it doesn't matter. Because in the end, no matter how unique you are, in SSB or in any other competitve game it doesn't matter if you don't win.

Which is the biggest flaw.

You don't make art for the primarily reason of getting recognition. Of course you need some recognition if you want to make a living.

I hardly believe artists would invest more time playing a chess game rather than sketch, sculpt, paint. They would use games as only means of refreshing out their ideas.

And no, I'm not a art major. It's called common sense.

Okay. Again, have you NEVER heard the colloquialism "<blank> is an art"? This usually means that while the goal is the same, the means are vastly different, and people can find the more elegant, or eloquent, means gratifying and/or pleasing?

If you want to break SSB down into saying "get him off the stage, doesn't matter how", then I will break down art into "get your idea out, doesn't matter how".

Then why do we differentiate pointillism from dada-ism, or the renaissance era from the baroque era?

To quote hippy wisdom, "It's not the destination, it's the journey, man".

Look, this argument is kinda silly, we all know that as far as human impact, or impact on society, SSB <<<<<Art.

But you're wrong in saying that it doesn't matter how one gets one's opponent off the edge.

You're telling me that there is no difference between a ken-combo and somebody hitting down-b with Donkey Kong till their idiotic opponent falls off the edge?

If so, then I tell you that there is no difference between Monet's Water Lilies and the average fourth-grader's waterpainting of a dandelion.

I hate when I get in an argument with one of the (relatively) few intelligent posters on SWF, I wish we could all band together, grab torches and pitchforks, and run off the rest. So... truce?

And my last point, the idea that all top-level (or any level) playstyles are homogeneous is ridiculous.

Oh, and I wasn't saying that artist played games more than they sculpted or whatever, I was merely pointing out that games DO indeed have an impact on society other than fleeting friendships in college.

But, anyways, truce? I await your rebuttal.

 

[.kR0]

I edited my previous post to this.

Even if you consider videogames to be art (I personally don't like the notion even though I see the reasoning behind it)

No one plays SSb for its aesthetic purposes, its story, it's creation process, its music. Everyone plays it for the sole purpose of winning and having fun. Hence this game cannot be considered good art. Even if anyone considers SSB to be art, I highly doubt the people who consider this more or an art than Picasso's Guernica just like how everyone can distinguish a 4 year old doodle from a DaVinci's painting. There is no creative process behind it; its just a compilation of nintendo characters fighting each other. Creative process of beating another player does not make the game itself a creative art form.

Please tell me a good, convincing argument to why you would consider SSB to be good art.

And what do you mean by unique playstyle? Everything pretty much has been discovered in melee. Playstyles are usually all boils down to achieving one simple goal; to knock the guy off the stage. How people do it doesn't matter. Because in the end, no matter how unique you are, in SSB or in any other competitve game it doesn't matter if you don't win. I can go around being Cpt. Falcon and try being unique via killing with dair more than the knee so I look different, but its not going to win me games and hence I won't be taken seriously.

Which is the biggest flaw.

Videogames can come close to being good art. Videogames spawned a lot of urban/street/pop arts so one day it might be acknowledged as a high-end art-form. But SSB at this time? Definitely not. It's not going to convince a lot of people. Myself included.

And there is no difference between a ken combo and a dumb b spammer beating any player. Skill of playing a game does not change what the game IS. The relationship of the game to the player is too one sided.

The big thing we're at odds are is that I can and willing to consider the creators of videogames to be artists (bioshock, Okami being fine examples), but I will never consider the players to be artists. Ever.

I hate when I get in an argument with one of the (relatively) few intelligent posters on SWF, I wish we could all band together, grab torches and pitchforks, and run off the rest. So... truce?

Kill the people killing crashboards? I'm up for it.

By the way it was never meant to be like, a completely serious argument. I don't feel any reason to be mad at you for having a different opinion. We're just discussing what we feel about the topic (so truce because you're actually capable of forming an argument).

It's the internet. And its smashboards of all places. Nothing is too serious unless I met you in real life and we chose to sat down at a cafe to talk about this. Then we need to worry about not pissing each other off. I can probably piss off like hundreds of people here and they won't remember me in a week.

I bet you.

 

[Andrew Ott]

Technically, Brawl IS Melee 2.0, just as Melee was SSB64 2.0...

But I digress, the reason most people have issues with Brawl is BECAUSE it's not "Melee 2.0" as you say, and so many things were changed. Since so much more attention has been given to Brawl tactics than Melee's, the whole "give it more time" point is becoming less and less valid.

Melee in my opinion, is just as much of an art as swordfighting. It's not art because it's a good video game, or because the fighting system is different. It's artful because at a high level (that is to say, not so much at a low one), you have to know the thoughts of your opponent, know the game itself inside and out, and do it all with a calm mind. It's hard, and there are only a handful of people with success.

With a high standard and people willing to learn, anything can be art. I'd say Melee has both of those things in abundance.

I personally like Brawl, but as I've said before, I'll still play Melee, and still play 64.

 

[Meta Ryu]

first off by the number of posts in only a few hours (all of varying opinions) let me just say that it apparently is not a dead horse, as people still have very strong and differing opionions.

Second, I do use the search function. It's not about if it's been said before or not, the purpose was to try and help show some people why the madness should stop. If you just want to flame, say it's stupid, nit pick about how I write, please go ahead. I really don't care and no sensible person would.

Thirdly, when did I say NOT to compare the two? Take the time to read folks, maybe take some critical thinking courses or just plain english. I said (and I quote) "Stop comparing the two so freakingly close". AKA don't stop comparing them, stop comparing EVERY LITTLE THING. It's the succesot to melee, not a clone.

Finally, though I did not start this post with it in mind, I do strongly agree with the aesthetics of smash. I personally do not JUST play to win, or even just for fun. I get quite alot out of it when I train, when I play others etc. To me it is a virtual martial art, so was melee, and 64. If you don't think so thats fine. We really don't care. We do have "creative processes" in the way we express ourselves while we play.

Everyone knows an epic match is epic regardless of who wins.

And in addition the fact that anone who picks up the game at really any skill level can experience that, is truly the base reason why I personally love smash.



oh and, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly, thusly,
brawl is not melee

 

[Taymond]

So what? It still has problems. We can't talk about those problems? Honestly, not that many people whine about the differences between Brawl and Melee anymore, people whine about the differences between Brawl and what Brawl could've been--the mistakes, as we see them, that were made in production.

Sure, people were annoyed at the loss of some advanced techs, but we got over it. It wasn't entirely unexpected, really, we all knew Sakurai wanted to expand the audience and make the game simpler to succeed. We moved on and we started looking for new ones.

We don't need to compare to Melee to complain about the game, there's a heck of a lot wrong with it. Any comparison to Melee is made after the discovery of such problems, those problems are not found via comparison to Melee.

 

[Meta Ryu]

I believe "Exactly" responds to your post best taymond.

 

[Lixivium]

Videogames can come close to being good art. Videogames spawned a lot of urban/street/pop arts so one day it might be acknowledged as a high-end art-form. But SSB at this time? Definitely not. It's not going to convince a lot of people. Myself included.

Okay thanks Roger Ebert, way to get so worked up about a little malaprop that has nothing to do with even the original topic.

 

[ph00tbag]

You have no idea how much I want Brawl to be more competitive than Melee. You also have no idea why it is impossible for it to be so, otherwise you would not have posted this topic. Everyone who has truly looked at this game with an understanding of what it will take to win can see that the game is simply less deep, and thus it is less competitive.

 

[Meta Ryu]

Quite apparently sir, it is you who does not understand how much it is I who want this game to be competitive. And don't even start talking about how I do or do not know about the depth of melee. Believe me I know, and just cause you can't see the depth of brawl doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[TriforceCore]

I loved the "its like comparing a newborn baby to the father" line, I lol but yeah man your totally right