Everyone using the same combos

[pianoasis]

This is really starting to bug me. Everytime I join an online tourney or play some FG it's just the same characters using the same tired combos. Is that really all there is to this game? It's either a Ness copying Nakat, a ZSS copying Nairo, a Sheik copying ZeRo, or a DK copying DKwill. No one is bringing anything new! I had hoped the decent internet play options would bring a lot of interesting ideas but this is all I see when I get on. The even sadder part is this is what wins. This game was supposed to be about diversity and devoted mains who bring out the best of their characters. I know the game is young, I get that, but only very few are putting in the work needed to make this game great. Players are so concerned about what is winning that they forget to contribute their own innovations to the game. Invent combos. Look for tech. Don't tell Sakurai about glitches. I know it's not easy, but it's not that hard. At the end of the day it's a game we play, so can we try to have fun doing it?

By the way, try to not get salty here. I'm not hating on you because you play ZSS or Sheik, I'm asking you, what the hell are you doing it for? Did you watch a ZeRo combo video and copy everything he does? If so, kindly throw away your Wii U because you are the problem. You're inflating the innovations of others and shutting out new ideas. You, and everyone else doing the same, are pigeonholing the meta. Either start thinking for yourself or this game sees competitive death in a few years.

Mods, don't take this as a rant because I am legitimately trying to get a message across. This fixed meta needs to stop.

 

[pollo20x6]

It's called their bread and butter. Every character has basic combos that are easy to pull off, wield effective results, and everyone who mains those characters does it. It's in like almost every single fighting game.

And besides, even if online players were playing exactly like ZeRo, who are you to tell any of us how to play?
If you want innovation and new ideas, do it yourself.

Telling everyone else who mimics the best players in the world to throw their Wii U away is beyond childish. Grow up. It's just a game.
If you don't like it, why don't you throw it away?

 

[ixos]

To be fair, the game IS only a year old. So basically, we aren't going to have a meta as deep as Melee or any of the other games in that time span. Some characters they need to do certain combos, because of limited kill options such as Sheik. Other characters, it just works for them because it's the best they can do. Some combos can be punished if done way too much, and they can be avoided as well. So just give the meta some more time to develop and surely there will be more combos.

 

[SuperScope]

Part of the problem also is that it's all omega stages so there's not much options anyone can do besides what works. Add that on top of most characters can't approach, shields stuff most anything and some characters have really good throw options. There are reasons why characters, like luigi, win more often than not.

 

[ixos]

Part of the problem also is that it's all omega stages so there's not much options anyone can do besides what works. Add that on top of most characters can't approach, shields stuff most anything and some characters have really good throw options. There are reasons why characters, like luigi, win more often than not.

This also. Nintendo made somewhat of a mistake with online modes in this game, allowing only Omega stages in For Glory and stuff like that. Probably most of the combos being used repeatedly mostly only work in that type of environment, or they may be hindered on another stage. I doubt Nintendo cares though, so the best we can do for now at least is just try our best and deal with it.

 

[Nexin]

It's called their bread and butter. Every character has basic combos that are easy to pull off, wield effective results, and everyone who mains those characters does it. It's in like almost every single fighting game.

This right here. Every person who uses a specific character will use certain combos because they are easy to do and they are effective. I'll use my characters as an example. All Ryu players will chain a sweetspotted Fair into itself at low percents even if they have never seen Emblem Lord, and Palutena players will always use jab -> grab -> dthrow -> whatever even if they have never seen Aerolink. That doesn't mean that they won't learn any other combos or that they are brain dead, it's just that they always have a way to reliable deal damage.

 

[pianoasis]

You're all right but while I'm here can we please talk about what really bothers me about this game? How strong ZSS camp game is. The formula for success as ZSS: shield then grab or neutral b then grab followed by up air string and up b kill attempt. Of course it is easy to fall out of but once you're back on the ground you're faced with the same problem: ZSS has a ridiculous grab range that is not laggy and doesn't leave her vulnerable, spare some fast characters.

 

[Nexin]

You're all right but while I'm here can we please talk about what really bothers me about this game? How strong ZSS camp game is. The formula for success as ZSS: shield then grab or neutral b then grab followed by up air string and up b kill attempt. Of course it is easy to fall out of but once you're back on the ground you're faced with the same problem: ZSS has a ridiculous grab range that is not laggy and doesn't leave her vulnerable, spare some fast characters.

Pretty much everybody here is going to disagree with what you said about ZSS's grab. She has one of, if not the, slowest grabs in the game. At point blank it is fast, but at max range it is reactable. It also leaves her completely open when it misses due to having a ridiculous amount of cooldown, so as long as you spotdodge her grab attempt, you can easily punish her. All of that combined means that she has a harder time dealing with shields than every other character.

 

[Turrin]

The first thing I have to get out there about your post: Do not overestimate For Glory players. I'm pretty sure 80% of them don't have any idea how the theory of competitive play works. Second, is that using the same bread and butter combo over and over actually doesn't work when abused. Fox's dthrow -> fair works maybe twice or three times (if I'm lucky) before my opponent starts to DI away when I follow up. Guess what that means? I have to do something else in order to catch my opponent off-guard. That's why you hear the term mix-ups used a lot by commentators of competitive matches. If I was fighting a campy ZSS and was focusing my attention on short hopping over the paralyzer and grabbing her, an out of nowhere aerial or dash attack from her might actually hit me. Long story short, playing unpredictably and being creative is actually how you win matches. Getting tunnel vision and going for the same combos/setups over and over is how you get read, whiff attacks and lose the game.

 

[ixos]

I 100% agree with Turrin. A good bit of For Glory players don't watch competitive Smash, and they resort to camping or spamming tactics like the one described here. Make sure to read and punish your opponents when they go for easy to predict combos like that too much, and it'll make it a little easier on you. Those people using the same combos over and over aren't going to stop using them until you punish them. They're basically asking for you to punish them when they do that. ZSS is a little harder to beat with slower characters, because of how fast she moves and attacks. Try to avoid her grab, as it has easily punishable ending lag, and then punish.

 

[Dre89]

This is really starting to bug me. Everytime I join an online tourney or play some FG it's just the same characters using the same tired combos. Is that really all there is to this game? It's either a Ness copying Nakat, a ZSS copying Nairo, a Sheik copying ZeRo, or a DK copying DKwill. No one is bringing anything new! I had hoped the decent internet play options would bring a lot of interesting ideas but this is all I see when I get on. The even sadder part is this is what wins. This game was supposed to be about diversity and devoted mains who bring out the best of their characters. I know the game is young, I get that, but only very few are putting in the work needed to make this game great. Players are so concerned about what is winning that they forget to contribute their own innovations to the game. Invent combos. Look for tech. Don't tell Sakurai about glitches. I know it's not easy, but it's not that hard. At the end of the day it's a game we play, so can we try to have fun doing it?

By the way, try to not get salty here. I'm not hating on you because you play ZSS or Sheik, I'm asking you, what the hell are you doing it for? Did you watch a ZeRo combo video and copy everything he does? If so, kindly throw away your Wii U because you are the problem. You're inflating the innovations of others and shutting out new ideas. You, and everyone else doing the same, are pigeonholing the meta. Either start thinking for yourself or this game sees competitive death in a few years.

Mods, don't take this as a rant because I am legitimately trying to get a message across. This fixed meta needs to stop.

Why should people stop using tactics that let them win?

 

[Reila]

Why should people stop using tactics that let them win?

Because it is "cheap"

 

[abx]

I'd argue that there are but a few tactics which are somewhat effective and relatively easy to pull off per character. And the majority of players aren't very good, like "tournament-wrecking good", so they come up with the obvious or what's widely known via tutorials or tournament footage. I doubt that this has been any different even in good ol' melee days: Only a few lead, most simply follow. Because coming up with something completely unique and innovative which yields good results is super-difficult.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

As repetitive as they are, those strategies work and are key BnB (Bread n' Butters) for them. Also, we're still learning the stuff, so things are likely to change as time goes by. At least the Hoo-Haa era ended.

 

[Earthward Bound]

As hard as this will be im going to keep short about 2 points i have towards this rediculous thread;

1.) i main ness and while i have many mixups at my disposal I will gladly dthrow -> fair chain you into the side blast zone if you can't figure out how to escspe.

2.) this isn't a "new meta" thing infact its quite the opposite. Look at melee fox, safe to say the most developed character in the most developed meta in smash history. Has that made the character more diverse? Unfortunately there comes a point when the best options of what are known to work become common knowledge and deviating from that usually (not always) means your doing a move that is less safe or puts you in a less favourable position.

What your actually asking for is a more casual, party-game playstyle - which is fine since thats what this game is ment to be - but your asking for it on the modes that are ment to be most competitive esk. Go play for fun mode or start the game up at your next kegger' with casuals and enjoy the diversity.

 

[pianoasis]

As hard as this will be im going to keep short about 2 points i have towards this rediculous thread;

1.) i main ness and while i have many mixups at my disposal I will gladly dthrow -> fair chain you into the side blast zone if you can't figure out how to escspe.

2.) this isn't a "new meta" thing infact its quite the opposite. Look at melee fox, safe to say the most developed character in the most developed meta in smash history. Has that made the character more diverse? Unfortunately there comes a point when the best options of what are known to work become common knowledge and deviating from that usually (not always) means your doing a move that is less safe or puts you in a less favourable position.

What your actually asking for is a more casual, party-game playstyle - which is fine since thats what this game is ment to be - but your asking for it on the modes that are ment to be most competitive esk. Go play for fun mode or start the game up at your next kegger' with casuals and enjoy the diversity.

You're not entirely wrong, but really what I'm asking for is a way to keep the game light whilst being competitive. Let me explain. Getting destroyed in FG then having that person leave immediately after is so frustrating. I understand that they want someone who can challenge them but they assume I'm bad so quickly after I miss tech in a 2 stock game. I want people to not take it so seriously rather than make it all about fun.

It is so unsatisfying to play one game against someone, lose badly, and not get a chance to reply. Give others a chance, this is all I want to be taken out of this thread, if anything.

Also, ignore the thread start, that was coming from a place of frustration following the FG disrespect that I was speaking of.

 

[Leoinu]

I'm asking you, what the hell are you doing it for? Did you watch a ZeRo combo video and copy everything he does? If so, kindly throw away your Wii U because you are the problem. You're inflating the innovations of others and shutting out new ideas. You, and everyone else doing the same, are pigeonholing the meta. Either start thinking for yourself or this game sees competitive death in a few years.

Get over yourself.

It is so unsatisfying to play one game against someone, lose badly, and not get a chance to reply. Give others a chance, this is all I want to be taken out of this thread, if anything.

Get over it. They aren't obligated to stay if they don't want to.

 

[Earthward Bound]

You're not entirely wrong, but really what I'm asking for is a way to keep the game light whilst being competitive. Let me explain. Getting destroyed in FG then having that person leave immediately after is so frustrating. I understand that they want someone who can challenge them but they assume I'm bad so quickly after I miss tech in a 2 stock game. I want people to not take it so seriously rather than make it all about fun.

It is so unsatisfying to play one game against someone, lose badly, and not get a chance to reply. Give others a chance, this is all I want to be taken out of this thread, if anything.

Also, ignore the thread start, that was coming from a place of frustration following the FG disrespect that I was speaking of.

Its nice to get matched up against good players but your frustration sounds more like an ego thing rather than craving competition. If it makes you feel better i'd be willing to bet alot of those people so quick to leave after beating you game 1 are likely just trying to "save face" as they know deep down they probably couldn't repeat their display. So in the end if its competition you truly crave, alot of them infact weren't worth your time anyway.

You also have to realize, with so many people, in different time zones, leading different lives your bound to just catch people on their last game of the day or session regardless of their skill level. Even you have to put the controller down at some point - who is to say your time to quit playing didn't piss someone off as we are all more likely to stop after a win. The only commitment on fg is the game your currently in, for better or for worse.

You can avoid this if your planning to play for an extended period of time by perusing the new online tourney mode

 

[pollo20x6]

ZSS has a ridiculous grab range that is not laggy and doesn't leave her vulnerable, spare some fast characters.

Are you serious? She has one of the slowest grabs in the entire roster.
It leaves her extremely vunerable if missed against evem midde speed characters.

 

[pianoasis]

Its nice to get matched up against good players but your frustration sounds more like an ego thing rather than craving competition.

You're right, I am craving some ****in cinnamon waffles right now.

 

[neohopeSTF]

This is how almost every fighting game ever made is lol

 

[Scootch]

I use whatever character I want. I don't care if the are low or high tier. And I do not look up guides for them anymore and try to play like a pro. I do better when I base my character on my own experiences. I hope you all will do this.

 

[abx]

And I do not look up guides for them anymore and try to play like a pro.

So basically you just finished reading, right?

 

[Scootch]

What do you mean?

 

[abx]

Let me requote you and highlight the important part:

And I do not look up guides for them anymore and try to play like a pro.

Spoiler

Disclaimer: It's a joke. And not even a good one.

 

[Scootch]

Oh LOL.

 

[pollo20x6]

I use whatever character I want. I don't care if the are low or high tier. And I do not look up guides for them anymore and try to play like a pro. I do better when I base my character on my own experiences. I hope you all will do this.

I started doing better with G&W after watching a lot of GimR videos.
But like, a massive improvement.
I couldn't beat my friend's Link before and through careful observation and mimicry, my game improved immensely. Now I beat him all the time. I have a better idea of how to connect down throw to Side B or when to connect down throw to Up Air. Seeing how GimR uses G&W's space to his advantage. When he rushes, when he plays defensive.
Seeing one of the best G&W players in the world helps give me an idea of what to do and when. A blue print of sorts, to achieve best results.
It doesn't do the work for me, but I felt it helped a lot.

 

[Scootch]

Yeah I did not say anything was bad about looking up how pros play, I do it myself sometimes for tips, but I just meant that I do not copy everything that they do.

 

[onehundredhitz]

Low tiers for life. That's where the game is really fun, because 75-80% of Smash players wanna be top tier so bad, they try and emulate some of their favorite competitors with their characters and don't study how to defeat low tier characters, yet we study all.

 

[pollo20x6]

Get over it. They aren't obligated to stay if they don't want to.

While it isn't obligated, it is extremely rude if they had the chance for another match.
Most tournaments have a 2 out of 3 rule for a reason. 1 match means nothing.

I just got done playing a Marth who 2 stocked me. He could have left. Written me off as some scrub. We rematched. I two stocked him. Second match. Two stocked him again.

Then there's a guy who insulted me...and I wasn't even my main. Left after one match.

Another close match, wasn't even my main. Left after one.

I know this isn't a tournament. I know people have things to do.
In the end, only one can judge their own actions and why they leave.

But me, personally, I always give my opponent at least two tries.
My first win could have been luck or they weren't their main. After that, I feel no guilt leaving. I gave them a fair chance.

 

[Leoinu]

While it isn't obligated, it is extremely rude if they had the chance for another match.
Most tournaments have a 2 out of 3 rule for a reason. 1 match means nothing.

I just got done playing a Marth who 2 stocked me. He could have left. Written me off as some scrub. We rematched. I two stocked him. Second match. Two stocked him again.

Then there's a guy who insulted me...and I wasn't even my main. Left after one match.

Another close match, wasn't even my main. Left after one.

I know this isn't a tournament. I know people have things to do.
In the end, only one can judge their own actions and why they leave.

But me, personally, I always give my opponent at least two tries.
My first win could have been luck or they weren't their main. After that, I feel no guilt leaving. I gave them a fair chance.

No, it isnt rude. You're taking something so trivial stupidly offensive. You have no idea whats going on on the other side of the lobby. Maybe they have to go. Maybe they are bored. Theres loads of reasons. Grow. Up. If they leave, move on.

 

[pollo20x6]

No, it isnt rude. You're taking something so trivial stupidly offensive. You have no idea whats going on on the other side of the lobby. Maybe they have to go. Maybe they are bored. Theres loads of reasons. Grow. Up. If they leave, move on.

Did you not read the last bit?
I know people can be busy. Duh.
At least read the whole message.

And I don't even care. If someone else wants to play like that, fine. I just think that if they had the time for another match, but left because they assumed they're the better player, well, I think that's rude. Simple as that. If that's how they roll, good for them.

But like I've said, I've seen it happen way too many times that the second match reveals who's the better player whether it be switching character or adapting.

I'll keep giving everyone two chances because I find that to be fair. Gives them time to realize "I should be my main and have a legitimate match" or how to counter my moves.

If I'm just gonna walk away after beating their secondary with my main, I would consider myself cowardly IF I could afford the time for another match (which I've already mentioned twice, is taken into account).

I personally go by tournament rules. They're fair and I'll give my opponents a fair chance to prove they're better than me.
It would be rude of me to not allow them a fair chance.
If someone else doesn't want to, cool. Good for them.
I find it rude, but whatever.

 

[Leoinu]

While it isn't obligated, it is extremely rude if they had the chance for another match.
Most tournaments have a 2 out of 3 rule for a reason. 1 match means nothing.

I just got done playing a Marth who 2 stocked me. He could have left. Written me off as some scrub. We rematched. I two stocked him. Second match. Two stocked him again.

Then there's a guy who insulted me...and I wasn't even my main. Left after one match.

Another close match, wasn't even my main. Left after one.

I know this isn't a tournament. I know people have things to do.
In the end, only one can judge their own actions and why they leave.

But me, personally, I always give my opponent at least two tries.
My first win could have been luck or they weren't their main. After that, I feel no guilt leaving. I gave them a fair chance.

Did you not read the last bit?
I know people can be busy. Duh.
At least read the whole message.

And I don't even care. If someone else wants to play like that, fine. I just think that if they had the time for another match, but left because they assumed they're the better player, well, I think that's rude. Simple as that. If that's how they roll, good for them.

But like I've said, I've seen it happen way too many times that the second match reveals who's the better player whether it be switching character or adapting.

I'll keep giving everyone two chances because I find that to be fair. Gives them time to realize "I should be my main and have a legitimate match" or how to counter my moves.

If I'm just gonna walk away after beating their secondary with my main, I would consider myself cowardly IF I could afford the time for another match (which I've already mentioned twice, is taken into account).

I personally go by tournament rules. They're fair and I'll give my opponents a fair chance to prove they're better than me.
It would be rude of me to not allow them a fair chance.
If someone else doesn't want to, cool. Good for them.
I find it rude, but whatever.

Love people who find stupid **** offensive, never change.

 

[ixos]

I like (not really) how this thread just magically turned into an argument about taking things offensive, although it started out as a competent thread about combos. 10/10 would change topic again.

Anyway, notice how he said "rude". He didn't say he took it as offensive. There's a difference between the two. Also, who cares if someone takes something like this as an offense? It's their opinion and you can't tell them how to live their life.

 

[bound_for_earth]

good

This is really starting to bug me. Everytime I join an online tourney or play some FG it's just the same characters using the same tired combos. Is that really all there is to this game? It's either a Ness copying Nakat, a ZSS copying Nairo, a Sheik copying ZeRo, or a DK copying DKwill. No one is bringing anything new! I had hoped the decent internet play options would bring a lot of interesting ideas but this is all I see when I get on. The even sadder part is this is what wins. This game was supposed to be about diversity and devoted mains who bring out the best of their characters. I know the game is young, I get that, but only very few are putting in the work needed to make this game great. Players are so concerned about what is winning that they forget to contribute their own innovations to the game. Invent combos. Look for tech. Don't tell Sakurai about glitches. I know it's not easy, but it's not that hard. At the end of the day it's a game we play, so can we try to have fun doing it?

By the way, try to not get salty here. I'm not hating on you because you play ZSS or Sheik, I'm asking you, what the hell are you doing it for? Did you watch a ZeRo combo video and copy everything he does? If so, kindly throw away your Wii U because you are the problem. You're inflating the innovations of others and shutting out new ideas. You, and everyone else doing the same, are pigeonholing the meta. Either start thinking for yourself or this game sees competitive death in a few years.

Mods, don't take this as a rant because I am legitimately trying to get a message across. This fixed meta needs to stop.

good point but people will play how they want too thats just the truth but belive me i agree with every word of your post

 

[pollo20x6]

Anyway, notice how he said "rude". He didn't say he took it as offensive. There's a difference between the two.

Thank you. For a second, I thought I wasn't being clear or that there wasn't a difference between the two, but you read it the way I intended it.

 

[VPTurnip]

the same problem: ZSS has a ridiculous grab range that is not laggy and doesn't leave her vulnerable

LOL
I legit laughed, hahaha xD I would say thanks but it'd come off as condescending, which isn't what I want.

Anyway..

Why should people stop using tactics that let them win?

Exactly, if someone is being predictable then PREDICT that and PUNISH it.
People learn from experience, if they get punished a lot from using that one combo over and over again maybe they'll feel the need to mixup or git gud?

The even sadder part is this is what wins.

If people are being predictable then you should have an easier time, no?
There's a reason it wins, people fall for it.

 

[LancerStaff]

This is a fighting game. If people are being predictable and it's working you're being even more predictable.

Saying Smash 4 is broken and yet comparing it to Melee is laughable... Melee is a hundred times more broke because actually unpunishable things like SHDL exist. My experience with Melee is slim so I can't really give a good example, but low tiers had no chance in Melee whatsoever, but now it's a different story.

 

[neohopeSTF]

This is a fighting game. If people are being predictable and it's working you're being even more predictable.

Saying Smash 4 is broken and yet comparing it to Melee is laughable... Melee is a hundred times more broke because actually unpunishable things like SHDL exist. My experience with Melee is slim so I can't really give a good example, but low tiers had no chance in Melee whatsoever, but now it's a different story.

how is short hop double laser that bad? there is broken stuff in melee but that isn't one of them lmao. Anyway, doing the same combos isn't really being predictable its just the characters doing thier BnB. OP just needs to get better at the neutral.

 

[LancerStaff]

how is short hop double laser that bad? there is broken stuff in melee but that isn't one of them lmao. Anyway, doing the same combos isn't really being predictable its just the characters doing thier BnB. OP just needs to get better at the neutral.

Falco's shuts out slowpokes pretty hard, last I checked. Just the first thing on my mind.