Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[MasterShake]

I hate his playstyle so much...I just want to know why it seems so easy for KFC and not me.

 

[JPeGImage]

Id have to watch one of his matches, but I would initially say, from what I remember, it's cause he makes more from his grabs , option selects a little better, and forces Full/double jumps more and just goes for broke after that. . . I dont think you ever got under dp too often. . . and if you did, it was with a fsmash or a nair that put your back to him afterwards (real bad thing , obv)

I have someone over here that laser spams a lot and I just stay right outside his dair range, that I can react to, and occasionally throw out a huge crossup (which is obv something marth cant do) that will throw him off balance. . .

and once he jumps over me, im so ready to try trading uairs with him (unless he's under 25-35%, then im more likely to dd-grab more)

 

[Tee ay eye]

remind me later/tomorrow on FB

 

[Bones0]

Critique Meh!

1 - Bones (Falco) vs. Winston (Fox)
2 - Bones (Falco) vs. Winston (Fox)
3 - Bones (Falco) vs. Winston (Fox)
4 - Bones (Falco) vs. Winston (Fox)
5 - Bones (Marth) vs. Wenbo (Falco)
6 - Bones (Marth) vs. Wenbo (Falco)
7 - Bones (Marth) vs. Wenbo (Falco)
8 - Bones (Red Falco) vs. Wenbo (Green Falco)
9 - Bones (Red Falco) vs. Wenbo (Green Falco)
$1 MM - Bones (Red Falco) vs. Wenbo (Green Falco)

I played horrible in the MM, but I also just suck vs. Falco. Any tips, general or specific, much appreciated. :D

 

[Tee ay eye]

why did you post your falco games here

 

[MT_]

Excuse this noobie critique but here goes!

@Bones

You need to make more off of your grabs. This can be perfecting your chaingrab (know the percents where you have to start pivot grabbing and don't get caught off guard by those janky slight behind DIs) or knowing how to combo them to death off grab. When you got grabs against him, other than like 1-2 gimps I saw in the three matches you usually ended up tacking on an average of like 20% which is wayyyy too little for marth's retardedly strong grab game vs falco.

You also tend to dash dance a little aimlessly and when you felt like you needed to do something out of the dash dance, you chose to nair with really bad spacing and it looked like you were just throwing them out hoping he'll run into them or something. Marth can dash dance vs falco but IMO it's only really useful in short bursts and into grabs or (sparingly) dash attack. But it seemed like you were just dash dancing, and after 5-6 back and forths the falco caught on and just hit you out of them lol. Or you'd run into falco's zone and get met with a dair or nair or something.

Overall, I felt like your spacing needs huge work. It's kind of hard against falco because he has all these tools to mess up your spacing, but it's necessary because he has all these tools to PUNISH bad spacing (CC, shieldgrab, anything OOS, etc etc). Make sure you're keeping an eye on the falco and his little tricks, especially when wavelanding/falling from platforms because sometimes he just got free ins on you and it looked like you were just kind of surprised and took the hits. It'll probably also help your spacing lol.

Also you need to be able to react to landing stray hits better. Saw you land some perfect uairs with no follow up; I was like noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

In any case, this particular falco wasn't lasering much at all in these matches and my advice to you would be to not shield so much (especially if he's not lasering) and focus more on outspacing the falco with your disjointed moves and less on movement. He won the neutral game a lot without lasers so there's a glaring issue you should be aware of. Once you're more aware of what falco wants and what marth is able to capitalize off of, the movement should come more naturally.

And one last thing - be a little more aware of how you return to the stage from high. Falco's super high jumps make it really easy to swat marth trying to just fall back onto the stage from above. Consider laying back and then double jumping to the ledge; you got caught by dair/bair a couple times when you still had your double jump because of poor spacing when recovering. You should take advantage of the fact that you still have you double jump and space yourself so you can react to any attempt by falco to hit you further out.

/mediocre critique OUT

 

[Ripple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0J3C3Kstmc&feature=youtu.be

me vs. Dart

sorry about the choppyness

Everyone skipped me

 

[MT_]

Everyone skipped me

I try to avoid critiquing people that I wouldn't be able to contribute anything to (This means I end up avoiding critiquing like everything lol). I watched it earlier but I'll watch it again and see what I can add.


EDIT:

Mediocre critique #2

@Ripple

I would highly recommend mixing up uthrows in marth dittos whenever you get a grab. You seem especially alert to marth's habits to double jump//side-b stall whenever they feel threatened when you're below them, so I feel that uthrow -> juggle would work wonders for you.

You need to start DIing all of marth's combos awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. Especially if it's clear that he can't fsmash you (eg. he's not grounded). The best that marth can do in the air to combo you is fair, and if he nairs you'll have plenty of time to react and change your DI in. I guess the thing that could screw you over is shield breaker, but people hardly use that unless they know that another fair won't combo into anything else (in which case you should be DIing in already).

I feel like you are doing a great job at reading silly double jumps that marths do out of dthrow/bthrow or whatever, but you're not capitalizing that well. You are doing sourspot bairs which I think could be replaced by tipper fairs or uairs (easier to space) which will result in easy juggles/combos. The bairs you did happened when he was at lowish percent, so there was no real way to continue those into more damage or even death. But keeping marth in the air without his double jump is just soooooooo ****.

Last thing to contribute I guess would be to work on edgeguarding. I'm not really sure how to add to this because there's a lot about marth ditto edgeguarding that I'm not sure about, but I think you go for the ledge too much. When marth still has all of his stalling options (side-b, double jump) then I think going for the ledge is a terrible idea unless you're trying to steal it from him when he double jump sweetspots the ledge. I guess try exploring marth's onstage edgeguarding options? It's super hard to sweetspot against a properly spaced dtilt, and even if you **** up the edgeguard, returning to the stage from the ledge in marth dittos can be INCREDIBLY difficult if the onstage marth knows what he's doing. (don't get hit by ledgehop fairs, watch for the rolls, etc etc). In other words, you maintain a significant positional advantage even if you **** up the edgeguard if you opt to edgeguard from onstage.

Hopefully this helps lol.

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TdlsiQIz8k

Double halp.

0:00: You did a f-air -> running AC nair. IMO you could've better followed up the fair with a u-tilt or a grab. Based on what happened, both of those probably would've connected with him.

0:03: Unnecessary jump allows Zac to go in on you and puts you under pressure to keep swinging your sword in bad ways. You shouldn't have double-jumped like that when you were so close to him. If you wanted to DJ like that, you should've been further away so that he couldn't punish you. Alternately, you should've just stayed closer to the ground. It would've been okay to shorthop (I could see an empty shorthop to push in on him working in that situation based on what he did), you could've backed off, or you could've just pursued him. There were a handful of things you could've done, but that jump was really bad.

0:12: You missed the uthrow utilt cuz he was too far from you. You could've done a dthrow, first of all. However, if you're insistent upon uthrow, you could have done one of a few things: a) walk up u-tilt, b) shffl tipper uair, c) waveland regrab if you have giant nuts and want to style on him

0:14: You did a nair -> failed grab. You should've just jab reset or done something that wasn't a failed grab.

0:15: Try not to u-tilt spotdodges so much unless you're confident with your timing, and sometimes the hitbox does infuriating things. IMO you should've just waited and grabbed. If your testicles are quite large, you could've done a shorthop to bait/wait for the spotdodge and then punished him with a dair LOL

0:30: Ledgehop nair sucks so much ****. They're able to ASDI down the first hit and then get a FULL CROUCH CANCEL (actually crouching reduces knockback to 2/3) on the second hit, and then you get *****. It would've been better to try for a tipper fair, ledgehop counter, stand-up, ledge attack, very-close ledge waveland (waveland right to the tip of the edge, not a full waveland), or something else. I noticed your ledge recoveries were actually a big issue in this match. Marth's ledge recoveries kinda blow, but you've gotta make the most of what you have. Explore his other options more. Ledgehop counter, close waveland, full waveland, tipper fairs, and your built-in options (stand up, ledge attack, and roll from the ledge)

0:38: Those were the worst fullhop fairs ever LOL. They put you in lag and terrible position.... uhhh... it would've been better to just not chase him like that. You could've maybe done something significantly less laggy or risky and not reached so far. Empty shorthops to pressure him, go to the left platform at a distance where he cant attack you, spaced bair (instead of fair), nair to knock him off the platform and hit him, or waveland grab if he was committed to shielding. I'm not sure what would have ACTUALLY worked, but these are a few things you could try.

0:40: You were in shield and tried to fair, but his bair hit you. You should've faired earlier, uaired, or just WD'd back out of shield and let his bair miss.

0:45: You actually succeed in landing the fair, but then you do a bad double jump and throw it away. It would've been best to just not double jump. However, something else you could've done was not commit to the dair afterwards. You could've wavelanded onto the platform right after the second jump started, you could've jumped right over him and then wavelanded backwards/past him then, or you could've landed and shielded. Idk, it still probably would've been best to not commit to the second jump, so I personally would say don't do it, or waveland onto the left platform to cancel the jump.

0:50: Stop doing fullhop fairs to try to chase him when he's above you... especially when he's DIRECTLY above you. In that situation specifically, it would've been best to just wait for him to come to you. Chasing him TOO hard puts you in ****ty position, especially since he could've just shielded whatever you wanted to throw at him. If you DID insist on reaching and poking at him, you should've used bair or a better-spaced fair.

0:53: He techs in place, and you try to dash in and grab him. Idk if you were expecting him to tech towards the center or what, but if you were trying to grab his tech in place, you probably could have stood where you were (or took a few steps closer) and did a spaced grab as he teched in place.

1:16: You hit him with the reverse bair, and your combo was pretty much over. At least, the guaranteed portion of it. You sorta desperately tried to continue your combo, and you got bitten in the *** for it (you did a rising shffl fair, and he grabbed you). You should've just accepted the fact that your combo was over, but still kept in mind that he was on the ropes and wanted to retaliate. It would've been best IMO to just bait him. Things that would have possibly worked after the SHFFL bair: a) empty shorthop (waveland backwards optional, but not necessary) into grab, b) auto-cancel/shffl nair instead of fair (the nair would've ended later and hit lower), c) dash -> shield -> wavedash OOS forward -> grab/utilt/something (It looked like he was just fishing for an opening, and what you did was INCREDIBLY easy to punish. Doing this would have been a lot sneakier, considering that it looked like he was gonna retreat), d) dash -> shield -> wavedash OOS forward -> dashdance like a champ to bait something out -> grab whatever he does (pretty risky but also incredibly badass), e) something else that is better than whatever you did LOL

1:20: Recovering with fair was so bad... don't do that.

I have the rest written down in my notebook already, but I have to go for now. On top of that, I'm tired of typing and timestamping.

1:36: You ran away from him, and he chased you. You got stuck in shield. I'll talk more about this later.

1:51: This was a pretty tight situation for you regardless of what happened. You were stuck on the platform, and he was under you with his back turned. However, I honestly think the best things you could have done in this situation would've been counter, roll, or stay in shield. If you countered, it'd have probably beaten his bair. If you rolled, he probably would've missed his bair and you might've been able to escape. If you stayed in shield, his bair might've knocked you off or something IDK

2:33: You ran off the platform and threw out a fair, and he grabbed you right when you missed. In this situation, you could've wavelanded backwards/past him instead of doing the fair at all. Or if you wanted to be a cool kid like me, you could've done a Shai drop so your fair wouldn't have been as close to him.

3:33: You whiffed a d-tilt and then ran away. There's 2 things you have to think about here: first of all, you should now know that Zac likes to go hard in the paint whenever he sees you miss a d-tilt. You can probably use a d-tilt and then expect him to go in. Something that might've worked really well in this situation after whiffing the d-tilt would be WD back -> ground move (fsmash/jab/utilt/etc) because the WD back will act as a good retreat without turning your back, allowing you to throw out a move immediately (this is a flaw presented by dashing back: you turn your back). If you're a frame god, you can dash back and pivot something (actually, pivot f-smash would work here too and it wouldn't be too hard). The SECOND thing to keep in mind is.... well, look at what happens afterwards: you run away, he chases you, and then he thwarts your DD grab attempt with a shine. Your back is turned, and once he has you pinned like this, you CANNOT afford to move back (closer to him), because he pretty much will hit you (there's probably some exceptions, but IDGAF) if you dash back towards him. Dashing BACK at him is too slow, too easy to see, and it closes the distance between you guys too much. There are a few ways you can punish him alternately, though, and you might actually want to actively put yourself into this situation, because it is actually pretty good. You could have kept running away and then dash-canceled a f-smash in his face (it's safe to say that f-smash > shine... although Fox is bull**** and will clink or not get hit sometimes). You could have done a pivot grab because pivot grabs don't present the same problems that dash back grab does. You could have jumped out of your dash and daired him (not particularly recommended, but it could've worked). Etc, etc, you get the point.

3:38: You dash at him and eat a nair to the face. Sure, it was a good call on his part, but I still wanna talk about this. You could've baited out the nair in this situation. However, something you REALLY need to keep in mind is to NOT ALWAYS RESORT TO DASH AWAY GRAB. People always expect it and punish it a lot of the time now. Read the above paragraph for other things you could've done. Dash in -> wavedash backwards -> ruin Fox's life by pressing buttons is one of my personal favorites. Dash in -> shield -> do stuff. Dashdance might have worked. However, something ELSE to keep in mind is that you don't always have to GRAB out of a dashdance. If they're prepared for you to grab, you can usually beat them by using an attack instead of a grab (e.g. dashdance into a spaced nair or fair).

3:58: I think you would've gotten a free punish on Zac right here if you WD'd backwards out of your shield and f-smashed or otherwise punished him. I'll talk about this more later, but look at this situation as a good example of "General note 2." Your dash in -> shield made him come at you (bro). You could have used that with more purpose and WD'd backwards out of shield and punished him.... or you could've just done a rising fair out of shield.... or dair if you want to be AWESOME. I'm tired of listing options, so yeah, you get the point.

4:02: Bad fair, you should've gotten ***** for that.

4:16: I was happy cuz you finally started doing ledgehop counter. However, you sorta flubbed the follow-up. It would've benefited you greatly if you had a little more control in your movement. Moving back and forth is nice, but knowing when to stop in place is also great. I personally would've ran up to him and did a neutral WD right next to him (outside his getup attack range) and tried to grab him afterwards, but there's more you could've done.

5:10: I sorta blow at punishing forward B's myself, but when Fox forward B's high, I think you have to change the timing of your jab to match the height. It's a pain in the ***. I think if he does a high forward B, you could use nair, fair, f-tilt, neutral B, or if you're a cool kid, time your jabs accordingly (I am not a cool kid in this regard).

5:34: Don't do that.

General note 1: I said this earlier, but mix up your ledge recoveries more. I was happy when I saw you ledgehop counter in Game 2.

General note 2: Mix up your movement options more. It doesn't matter if you're the best dashdancer on the face of the earth. You can still benefit from adding some variety to your neutral game to keep your opponent on his toes instead of letting him get comfortable with one small set of mixups. For example, you could benefit from using your shield with more purpose (When your opponent sees you shield, they will not treat it the exact same as seeing you dashdance. Shielding acts as a good bait just because it gives off the appearance of vulnerability, but you have so many options out of it), knowing when NOT to shield (you can't dash when you're in shield, so your forward threat isn't as strong when you're shielding a lot. Wavedashing forward helps, but it's not the same as having the threat of straight up dashing in), spacing whiffed moves intentionally to bait him in (AC nair works really well), using empty shorthops (with wavelands), using platforms more, using neutral wavedashes to control the pace of your movement better (it's nice because it stops you in place rather than MAKING you go one way or the other), knowing when to wavedash instead of dash, knowing when to dash instead of wavedash, and all that junk.

General note 3: Don't always try to fair at your opponent when he has you stuck in the air. Fair starts high and swings downward, so it's actually quite bad at covering below Marth. Fair works sometimes, but eh. Something that makes fair better is to do it retreating. Don't do a fair aggressively from the air like that unless you're REALLY sure it will hit. Dair works sometimes if you have giant nuts and want to risk it. Otherwise, you can also try to counter when coming down (if you expect them to bair or utilt or some bull****) or waveland/airdodge to escape.

 

[odinNJ]

jesus, TAI confirmed for mvp of the marth boards

 

[MasterShake]

LOL dude.

For :53 I definitely 100% predicted that he was going to tech in. No reaction.

For 1:16 OMG I tried to bair him on the plat and ****ed it up. ****.

Thanks for doing this.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i'm done

i think i need to retire from smashboards for a while after that monster X_X

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Lol, but you don't need to be a frame god to pivot. Pivots are actually pretty easy.

 

[Bones0]

why did you post your falco games here

I just copied and pasted. lol If it makes you feel better, I posted my Marth games on the Falco forums. >.>

@Bones

Damn, thanks. That's all pretty straightforward stuff, so hopefully I can tweak all of it pretty quickly. Really appreciated!

Lol, but you don't need to be a frame god to pivot. Pivots are actually pretty easy.

You have to be frame perfect to pivot things. Only exception is fsmash (which is like 5 frames or something) because otherwise it'd be retardedly difficult to fsmash with the control stick.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Lol, but you don't need to be a frame god to pivot. Pivots are actually pretty easy.

**** you .

 

[.Chipmunk.]

**** you .

Lol. Just practice short hopping by pressing up instead of X or Y for a bit, then use that same speed/timing to pivot left or right. You'll get it in no time.

 

[Bones0]

Speed is irrelevant for pivoting.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Speed is irrelevant for pivoting.

Umm...no it isn't.

 

[MT_]

@Chipmunk you just changed the way I thought about pivots... I mainly use pivots for pivot fsmash and when I used the A button to do so (WEIRD I KNOW) so I always continued holding the ctrl stick left/right even after I stopped my dashdance with fsmash. But the method you're suggesting is essentially ALWAYS doing the inputs for an empty pivot (dash then turn around stop) and then you can do whatever you want out of it, so that even if you input your attack too slowly, it will still come out because you're now in standing animation instead of dashing, just the attack will come out slower... Empty pivots are very easy and I think my pivot consistency is about to go up a whole lot lol. Just need to get used to using c-stick to pivot fsmash...

Thanks lol (I know this was random but it was a crazy revelation for me)

No more accidentally dash attacking into the enemy on like 35% of my pivot fsmash attempts LOL

 

[Bones0]

Umm...no it isn't.

You can dash left, then right immediately, or you can dash left, wait until your dash is almost done, then dash right. You can pivot grab out of either.

@Chipmunk you just changed the way I thought about pivots... I mainly use pivots for pivot fsmash and when I used the A button to do so (WEIRD I KNOW) so I always continued holding the ctrl stick left/right even after I stopped my dashdance with fsmash. But the method you're suggesting is essentially ALWAYS doing the inputs for an empty pivot (dash then turn around stop) and then you can do whatever you want out of it, so that even if you input your attack too slowly, it will still come out because you're now in standing animation instead of dashing, just the attack will come out slower... Empty pivots are very easy and I think my pivot consistency is about to go up a whole lot lol. Just need to get used to using c-stick to pivot fsmash...

Thanks lol (I know this was random but it was a crazy revelation for me)

No more accidentally dash attacking into the enemy on like 35% of my pivot fsmash attempts LOL

Pivoting fsmash with A isn't weird. It's a lot easier than using the c-stick. I forget how many frames it is. I think it's in Strongbad's frame thread.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

@Chipmunk you just changed the way I thought about pivots... I mainly use pivots for pivot fsmash and when I used the A button to do so (WEIRD I KNOW) so I always continued holding the ctrl stick left/right even after I stopped my dashdance with fsmash. But the method you're suggesting is essentially ALWAYS doing the inputs for an empty pivot (dash then turn around stop) and then you can do whatever you want out of it, so that even if you input your attack too slowly, it will still come out because you're now in standing animation instead of dashing, just the attack will come out slower... Empty pivots are very easy and I think my pivot consistency is about to go up a whole lot lol. Just need to get used to using c-stick to pivot fsmash...

Thanks lol (I know this was random but it was a crazy revelation for me)

No more accidentally dash attacking into the enemy on like 35% of my pivot fsmash attempts LOL

I thought it was common knowledge to be honest. One of the reasons I don't attack right after pivots is because I like to use pivot ftilt and it's so much easier if you pivot, then ftilt instead of trying to do it in 1.

You can dash left, then right immediately, or you can dash left, wait until your dash is almost done, then dash right. You can pivot grab out of either.

I'm not talking about -when- you pivot. I'm talking about the actual pivot itself.

 

[MasterShake]

That feel when you accidentally pivot a dtilt and wish you could do it all the time.

 

[Bones0]

I'm not talking about -when- you pivot. I'm talking about the actual pivot itself.

Idk what you're talking about at all then... You compared the stick press to SHing, but you don't even have to let go of the stick to pivot. You just have to input the grab when you change directions.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Idk what you're talking about at all then... You compared the stick press to SHing, but you don't even have to let go of the stick to pivot. You just have to input the grab when you change directions.

True, but you don't want to always pivot grab. Sometimes you want to pivot fsmash or pivot short hop etc. I'm just talking about pivoting in general, not any specific move afterwards.

 

[.Ðempt]

hmmm...you have a pretty good Marth. Reminds me a bit of darts at times when you just go in and try whatever you want aggressive and all. I like your movement and the way you make use of the side-B.

If I was you I would try working on change ups and not repeating tactics as often. You got away with it with people who weren't as good but against better and better opposition it kills you more and more. Another thing is you have a beautiful way of giving up your second jump. Either you get hit out of the air or you willingly jump and then Side-b stall and either waveland or go for a FF-Dair. You did it in almost all of your matches and against better players like Green Ranger game 3 for example you got punished very hard for giving up your jump. Last thing I'd say is you should learn to rest on your lead alot more. When you are an up an coming player it's easy to get into a mode where you just want to put on a show and do some fancy stuff but it's better to get the wins under your belt first before you start looking cool. Times when you had a clear lead you would approach without reason or sometimes seemingly without thought. Nairing against shields and then getting grabbed for it. It could be the fact that you also play a Falco alt. I've had this problem as myself but sometimes you get so use to what Falco can do against a shield that you forget Marth isn't a pressure character Without extremely good spacing of retreating aerials.

All in all a pretty good marth.

You're right on that; my playstyle is lazy lol But I need to learn to play a little smarter and I'm adjusting to everything slowly. Wonderful critique, thank you.

Ref Code: demptisbad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3vs18DQs9Y ------ Skip to 6:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcHOVmGDJoc ------ Skip to 2:46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11xW3MMDNOU&feature=relmfu ------ Skip to 3:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEu-GZC5sew&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9yMcqAdfdE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLlUEWpyfrg ------ Only Game 1

I want to improve with him, and any critique would be helpful.

That's for anyone else who would consider taking a look for me. I'd actually really like to hear from Tai if he's still got a breath or two left, lol.

 

[mayhem_]

Yo! Here is some recent footage (last weekend) of my marth vs falco. Falco used to be my best matchup with marth, but lately I have felt a little bit unconfident in that matchup. Any advice is helpful Don't bother to comment on technical mistakes I know I made many because I was tired

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwhL1P-PUps

 

[knightpraetor]

whoa, random nonames better than i expected.

you get punished a lot the first game for not ever recovering low.

you also dashdanced once randomly under a platform when a falco was coming down onto the platform from above which is just always bad. hopefully this was just warm up johns or you zoning out.

at 2:15 you misspace your aerial push off while going up to the top platform. take more time to space properly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwhL1P-PUps

don't use counter when you're not yet in a bad situation. powershield is better, but countering from pure neutral on reads is a bad idea.

i could probably think of more stuff, but your vs falco game is solid enough...figure it out yourself. I'm lazy....

i'm sure someone else will give you tips anyway

also fsmashing someone in shield on platform is pretty bad. I can't say i've never done it..but at least wait till the shield has worn down to the point of the fsmash piercing. a fully held shield is hardly decent bait.

2nd match you fall for a really dumb bait. shine DJ as if he's going to just land in front of you and shine. if you really thought that just upair out of shield retreating and you don't suffer the risk of looking dumb when you grab air and get comboed.

also don't take land in shield with them behind you for missed tech...bair is not a decent punish there. you could have just dj to bait the get up and daired and if wrong land out of range and react to what they do...or next time just land in front of them..which might have been what you were attempting

you attempt random grab way too much the second match..every time he moves in range of you you just throw out the grab and get baited. don't rely on them giving you grabs or you guessing how they will approach..make them miss and grab them.

also it's ok to fall for shine retreating nair into fsmash..but falco's really like that so learn to keep shielding and fair them out of it. they will of course start grabbing in response to this most likely

 

[.Ðempt]

Hmm. Well, might as well.

1st Game: Too much counter. It's one of those moves when they least expect it, or when they have to hit you (edgeguarding). I see some random F-Smashing that needs to be reduced also. On top of that, I don't see enough capitalization when you get them on the platforms, or even in general. Even though you won, I feel it could have been done a little better.

2nd Game: Now I see you throwing a lot of NAir. As much as I love that move, it doesn't really do too much but knock them on the ground, in which case there's better things for that. NAir OoS isn't very helpful either since you're vulnerable on your bottom half. FAir is something I'd replace that with, but you used FAir OoS so you know this already. Also, I saw a lot of Neutral-B. A lot. It's good when you're trying to cover options off stage, but otherwise, there are still better choices. Aside from that, you started to get read pretty hard late game. You need to mix up your playstyle and choices so you don't become so predictable. And we're going to give you the BoD on the suicide.

3rd Game: You're picking up where to use NAir a little more (such as when he's stuck in shield on the top platform, it works great as a shield poke attack). I also see some Powershielding, which is awesome vs Falco since it really slows his momentum down. Try to Powershield more and work it in as an approach. Edgeguard game is a little weird here, since everything is really out of place to where you're spiking him lol. Edgeguarding while you're on the edge is really useful, especially with Marth's BAir because it pushes Falco back more which it what you need. Plus, you can follow it up with a Reverse Up-B if they try to go low.

Overall, it's clear you know the matchup. I'd rather see a game when you're a little more awake though.

On another note, I still need more critique for my vids I put up >_>

 

[knightpraetor]

sorry dempt..i'm too lazy to critique most of the time. i think it's the typing. livestream one day while in skype chat and then i'll critique. I think a lot of marths would be more willing to critique if we didn't have to write 8 sentences to fully explain some small little thing...it's just easier to discuss individual situations on the boards than to go through matches one little thing at a time

however, maybe i'll watch one vid and see what the most important one thing that could be changed in the match is. Honestly though most people can just go through their own vids..it's what i do. and you are more likely to remember that way...sure you won't learn certain things but that's why you read when other marth players post their thoughts or approach to a matchup. and why you bring up situations you struggle with or questions about optimizing combos or pressure

dair at the last second combos into grab as far as i know.. so just grab, no need to dash through...

more comboing..your comboing is good enough.it's just neutral that is bothersome, you Full hopped for no reason again..if you think falcon is going to come in and need to block him throw out your own aerials..or nair moving backwards.

also you choose a stylistic move (waveland falling upair) that i don't like but a lot of marths do..all those waveland off platforms into falling upairs...with the opponent below you....that has no priority..but i guess it combos well..of course if i hit a bair on them, i'm going to get more hits on them after they get stuck by the ledge..so i'd rather just have the range, priority and safety.

i also disagree with fmashing tech in place in this matchup as the risk of tech roll in, get pressured into falcon's grab and zero to deathed is pretty high.. i used to do that and it never paid off for me in tourney. it only nets positive when your opponents tend to get less than 50% off grabs.

last two stocks were decent.....except for the random full hop. I'm just going to speculate based on your limited walling with aerials that you initially started throwing out aerials, had a falcon side b under one or two, and decided that full hop was the solution. But the real solution is to just do your aerials moving back so that side b doesn't get under when you're retreating..and then to occasionally jump or just land out of range after sh approaching so that hte falcon's side b gets baited and *****.

 

[.Ðempt]

It's alright, I understand. It's just I've done all of that....lol. Since Vanz lives thirty minutes away from me, him and I talk about stuff all the time and just improving your game in general. So I'm just doing the last thing I can possibly do: Post vids in the critique thread lol

And I've read everything. Frame data, hitboxes, studied approaches and what works best offensively and defensively and even how to punish correctly. I'd just like an all around opinion I guess.

 

[knightpraetor]

sorry if i sound harsh..but you watch the video yourself..how often can you find a video of a marth FHing (2/3 times with no reason) in a tourney vs falcon?

your comboing was fine, and you went for some risky side b shenanigans that i don't recommend at high level, but mainly i would aim to learn how to improve your aerial game vs falcon. also techchase more, hardpredict less, falcon isn't good at getting out of techchases. space around his grab...react to his side b's...wait for the queued rolls....i'm not saying he won't get out...just that it's all in your favor..the best is when they tech and then instantly try to aerial you because they are so frustrated at the techchasing..then you just reactively carry them offstage with aerials of your own.

Honestly 3 weeks ago I played this matchup really really campy, but marth can actually play pretty aggressive in this matchup..falcon's only really dangerous response to aggressive play is side bing under the short hops so just bait that out or just short hop slightly undershot so that you take aerial space and then if he stays out of range just land..now he has no room to dashdance, poke him..swat him...he'll go offstage eventually

 

[.Ðempt]

Nah, trust me, nothing you say will hurt my feelings lol I'd rather get the critique then nothing at all.

I'm assuming you're referring to the game of me vs Juggle? If so, then yeah, I know what you mean. Marth can interrupt almost all of Falcon's aerials with his own, so it makes sense to use them against his.

Lately too, I've been sitting down at work in between my calls to think about matchups and game strategies against characters. Maybe if I can get them over from work, I can show some what I've written and what I think the matchups look like and how you can approach them. I'd like some feedback on those opinions as well, since that's me actually sitting down and thinking about what I should be doing without any pressure, so i'd like to hear from other people on what they think as well.

 

[mayhem_]

Thank you both for your replies

whoa, random nonames better than i expected.

I am from Finland so that is probably why you have never heard of me

don't use counter when you're not yet in a bad situation. powershield is better, but countering from pure neutral on reads is a bad idea.

I sometimes do that kind of stuff to catch them offguard. But yea I agree it was kinda too crazy if you mean 1:34

also fsmashing someone in shield on platform is pretty bad. I can't say i've never done it..but at least wait till the shield has worn down to the point of the fsmash piercing. a fully held shield is hardly decent bait.

Yea I know this problem I have tried to cut it off my game, but sometimes when I go with the flow it just starts happening :D

you attempt random grab way too much the second match..every time he moves in range of you you just throw out the grab and get baited. don't rely on them giving you grabs or you guessing how they will approach..make them miss and grab them.

When I get a feeling that everything starts to fall apart I kinda start looking for a grab to get something going on and build up some momentum from there, but yea maybe I should just camp when I get that feeling

1st Game: Too much counter. It's one of those moves when they least expect it, or when they have to hit you (edgeguarding). I see some random F-Smashing that needs to be reduced also. On top of that, I don't see enough capitalization when you get them on the platforms, or even in general. Even though you won, I feel it could have been done a little better.

Yea I used too much counter now that I watch the match again. When I was playing I didn't really feel like I was using it that much And yea maybe I should use fsmash little bit less, but I try to take them by surprise sometimes to get "free" kills

2nd Game: Now I see you throwing a lot of NAir. As much as I love that move, it doesn't really do too much but knock them on the ground, in which case there's better things for that. NAir OoS isn't very helpful either since you're vulnerable on your bottom half. FAir is something I'd replace that with, but you used FAir OoS so you know this already. Also, I saw a lot of Neutral-B. A lot. It's good when you're trying to cover options off stage, but otherwise, there are still better choices. Aside from that, you started to get read pretty hard late game. You need to mix up your playstyle and choices so you don't become so predictable. And we're going to give you the BoD on the suicide.

Hmm I actually like nair because if it hits I get a techchase opportunity. Maybe I should mix it up a little more like sometimes just go in with a dashattack or grab or something. Neutral-B is also something I like to use very much because if it hits their shield then I pretty much know that moves like nair will hit even if they shield But yea I have to take a second look at that.

3rd Game: You're picking up where to use NAir a little more (such as when he's stuck in shield on the top platform, it works great as a shield poke attack). I also see some Powershielding, which is awesome vs Falco since it really slows his momentum down. Try to Powershield more and work it in as an approach. Edgeguard game is a little weird here, since everything is really out of place to where you're spiking him lol. Edgeguarding while you're on the edge is really useful, especially with Marth's BAir because it pushes Falco back more which it what you need. Plus, you can follow it up with a Reverse Up-B if they try to go low.

Overall, it's clear you know the matchup. I'd rather see a game when you're a little more awake though.

On another note, I still need more critique for my vids I put up >_>

I was tired so that is why my powershielding wasn't very good. I usually can powershield on command so when I decide to powershield I can, but I screwed up many times in that set. There is going to be a tournament in two weeks so after that I will probably post more matches here

I will take a look at your games when I have more time I am a little bit busy right now, but apparently you have problems vs falcon (looking at knightpraetors comment) and I am pretty good in the matchup because one of my best friends mains falcon.

Without looking at your matches my advice is to be kinda aggressive, but not really Like stay in tipper range of him and you can just dominate falcon. Nair is really good in this matchup imo, use retreating nair to dtilt if they stay in place or another retreating nair/fair if they jump and you can kinda lock them. But be careful with your spacing falcon can CC to grabs or gentlemans. Also you can CC falcons get up attack to like 80% into tipper fsmash so keep that in mind while techchasing

Once you get falcon in the air with like utilt you can just combo him to like 100% everytime with uairs and then hit with nontipper fair to fsmash to finish the combo.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcnW1oy81qs

Here is a video of me vs falcon from the same weekend as the falco match take a look at how I use. I was tired here too but I know this matchup so well that it didn't really matter much

 

[knightpraetor]

"When I get a feeling that everything starts to fall apart I kinda start looking for a grab to get something going on and build up some momentum from there, but yea maybe I should just camp when I get that feeling "

don't think that camping is always the solution when you are falling apart. try to make sure you understand what you're getting hit with and whether camping would help. if you're getting hit by overshot aerials, attacking with your own is what solves this. you have responses to both ground and aerial approaches..and if you are getting baited yourself into missing by them coming into range, either predict and overshoot or just dash/ (walk, my favorite) forward and then try to take advantage of them losing space...if it's a matchup with few safe approaches at the very least dashdance and dash in grab are decent in almost every matchup.

i always wonder about everyone and their dtilt usage against falcon...i guess i would do it if the falcon dashdance camped me but no one does that (even though that is how i play the matchup when i'm falcon)..everyone does what pp said he liked and tries to space aerials on my shield...but maybe yay played like that..will have to check sometime

was going to take a look and see if i thought you naired too much the 2nd game. it's possible though hard to do. nair is preferable to fair vs falco in most cases except with your back to the ledge (gimps are good), but i'm too tired. I did notice that you have a problem with laser DI. you can't be DIing in on lasers that gets you gimped.

SORRY WAS REALLY TIRED LAST NIGHT IT WAS LIKE 4AM MEANT TO SAY IT GETS YOU COMBOED BUT HOPEFULLY YOU UNDERSTOOD


I'm the last person to tell you that you should be able to DI everything, but lasers are the most telegraphed of moves so unless you are hit point blank when you were coming in and expected to hit him first you really should have time to DI out and either fair/wavelandon the way down (i'm kind of bad so I tend to only waveland and rarely get the fair like I should)

LOLOLOLOL...

so i just went through some old taj video. And i was watching his vs falcon and just thinking. man fundamentals are so strong...taj messing up soo much stuff in this matchup..but his spacing is good and he recovers well so he will still win...but then he loses and I'm like..so I guess doing all the wrong things in a matchup does matter(mostly edgeguarding flops and too little variance in his move choice..[didn't know enough of his options])...but then taj counterpicks mewtwo and ***** his opponent...so what i really learned is... keep a pocket mewtwo to handle opponents that are too strong for marth^_^

 

[Archangel]

I wouldn't call Mayhem a random no name. That just makes you look like an American

 

[knightpraetor]

thought i'd go experiment with waveland off platform upair today, but to be honest it's just really really bad. I never realized the hitbox isn't out during the last part of it when it is horizontally behind you. The animation shows the sword moving but it can't hit. only use that if they're in the air above you. it might be possible to use it when wavelanding off a platform facing backwards but if they are behind you and you waveland off the platform and swing you are literally lagging for no reason with no hitbox behind you for protection

 

[mayhem_]

Knightpraetor: Yea I know camping is not a solution but it gives time to think what I should do that was what I meant. Also yea I know dtilt is situational vs falcon but it is a great move to shutdown falcons ground game.

Archangel: well yea europeans start to know about me, but it is no news that americans don't :D maybe that will change if I get to go to some US tourney sometime

 

[MasterShake]

Nah dude.

Falling uair is the truth.

 

[knightpraetor]

go look at the hitbox in the hitbox thread..it literally has no hitbox out even though it looks like you're swiping behind you. basically means forward wavelands off platforms have zero probability of hitting people under the platform who come after you...saying falling upair is good is fine, but run off platforms with falling upair is just bad

 

[Ripple]

Roy can do that

checkmate marth boards