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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
General stuff:

-You really like committing, haha. you barely spent any time using Marth's DD and zoning game. I'm not saying something like "just camp and falcon can't get in" or anything silly, but I think you could use a bit more of that element.

- A lot of the fsmashes look off to me, particularly in situations where the risk is a lot bigger than the reward. like, you land a lot of fsmashes in neutral because you're willing to gamble, but when he's not even near the edge and at a really low percent, you barely gain anything even if it hits, unless it tippers AND he has bad DI. A lot of the time I feel like you could use other options to make the same read, but they would either be less risky, or they would be higher reward if they hit (dash attack to start a combo, for example).

-I definitely don't like using shield very much in neutral, while you seem to use it a lot. I know you've posted before that you think shield approach is really good vs. falcon, but I can't really see it. When I see the shield bubble go up it just looks like options being crossed off without much potential gain. Even if the falcon hits your shield you aren't going to be able to shieldgrab him, and if he doesn't attack you, you haven't really made much ground since you can only advance from it by wavedashing out of shield (or jumping), meaning your effective threat range shrinks greatly until you get out of wavedash lag.

That's just what it looks like to me; I certainly could be wrong about this. I'd be interested in hearing why you like using it.

-edgeguarding is better than average, but could definitely use some fine tuning. Specifically there are situations where falcon is at mid percent and is forced to use his up B, but is above the stage height and slightly away from the edge. In these situations, since you should be aware that he must up B, you can react to his up B startup and jump out there to intercept his arc with an inside fair (there are other options as well but all of them involve going out there). You waited and let him get back over the stage before hitting him with an aerial, which can work, but sometimes falcon is just too heavy and you can't get him back off if you do that.

-I'd like to see a better punish game out of grab as well, using dthrow/fthrow techchasing when near the edge, and uthrowing onto a platform + uair traps when he gets above the percent where he can CC it. This is all situation specific I guess, but I think it could definitely be improved. Another aspect of comboing I noted that I disagreed with was that you often wanted to go for a rising fair instead of a grab at low percent when given the choice between the two. He cced all the rising fair attempts and got out of the combo when you tried that.

-doesn't a good ledge waveland also beat the double jump aerial thing? At least if he's aiming it trying to bait your ledgehop aerial, since in that case you can get past him while he's still in the air. Higher reward than ledgehop counter, I think, and less risky if he does something else. Not positive about this.

I could do a time-specific commentary on tactical choices if you're interested but Idk if you want to hear that from me >__>
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
General stuff:

-You really like committing, haha. you barely spent any time using Marth's DD and zoning game. I'm not saying something like "just camp and falcon can't get in" or anything silly, but I think you could use a bit more of that element.

Yea, big time.

- A lot of the fsmashes look off to me, particularly in situations where the risk is a lot bigger than the reward. like, you land a lot of fsmashes in neutral because you're willing to gamble, but when he's not even near the edge and at a really low percent, you barely gain anything even if it hits, unless it tippers AND he has bad DI. A lot of the time I feel like you could use other options to make the same read, but they would either be less risky, or they would be higher reward if they hit (dash attack to start a combo, for example).

I wayyyy overused that. Idk, low % random fsmash is something I really like against fastfallers, both for a psychological effect, and for the fact that it can set up an extremely early tech chase plus stage control. A bunch of these fsmashes actually hit him at too mid a percent I think, where like I couldn't follow up with any type of pressure tech chase-wise, but I wasn't sending him offstage to the point where I could edgeguard. Nevertheless it was way way overused. I agree I could have gotten a lot more out of these spots with better patience and move selection.

-I definitely don't like using shield very much in neutral, while you seem to use it a lot. I know you've posted before that you think shield approach is really good vs. falcon, but I can't really see it. When I see the shield bubble go up it just looks like options being crossed off without much potential gain. Even if the falcon hits your shield you aren't going to be able to shieldgrab him, and if he doesn't attack you, you haven't really made much ground since you can only advance from it by wavedashing out of shield (or jumping), meaning your effective threat range shrinks greatly until you get out of wavedash lag.

That's just what it looks like to me; I certainly could be wrong about this. I'd be interested in hearing why you like using it.

The bottom line is Falcon can not attack your shield safely under almost any circumstance. Randomly sticking an upward shield into his nair will net you some shield grabs, trust me. You can CC the jabs for grabs or just wait them out. Unless they are just swagging on you with knee approaches into dash behind, shielding should be fine (can always retreat fair or WD back if it doesn't net you anything). If they are actually doing this, it means you're shielding way too predictably/too much and should just be hitting them out of these approaches. Idk, I shield grab good falcons a lot. Ironically, Marth shares the same weakness, so Falcon is trying to do this back to you all the time too.

-edgeguarding is better than average, but could definitely use some fine tuning. Specifically there are situations where falcon is at mid percent and is forced to use his up B, but is above the stage height and slightly away from the edge. In these situations, since you should be aware that he must up B, you can react to his up B startup and jump out there to intercept his arc with an inside fair (there are other options as well but all of them involve going out there). You waited and let him get back over the stage before hitting him with an aerial, which can work, but sometimes falcon is just too heavy and you can't get him back off if you do that.

He can fast fall on reaction if I commit off stage early like that. You might need to point out the specific spot, cause I don't necessarily disagree it just seems situational. I may not be imagining correctly exactly what you're talking about.

-I'd like to see a better punish game out of grab as well, using dthrow/fthrow techchasing when near the edge, and uthrowing onto a platform + uair traps when he gets above the percent where he can CC it. This is all situation specific I guess, but I think it could definitely be improved. Another aspect of comboing I noted that I disagreed with was that you often wanted to go for a rising fair instead of a grab at low percent when given the choice between the two. He cced all the rising fair attempts and got out of the combo when you tried that.

Still working on the grab game. I've been transitioning away from up throwing (at least at low %) for a while because even tho it's more reliable, the payoff potential just isn't there imo. Gotta get better at Fthrow stuff. Yea choosing between rising fair and grab oos for a punish is a really critical thing in general I feel. I made the wrong choice a couple of times.

-doesn't a good ledge waveland also beat the double jump aerial thing? At least if he's aiming it trying to bait your ledgehop aerial, since in that case you can get past him while he's still in the air. Higher reward than ledgehop counter, I think, and less risky if he does something else. Not positive about this.

Yes. Ledgehop counter is sort of a dominated strategy imo, as it's pretty risky and other options get around the same types of ledge situations but psychologically it can get a player to "back the **** off" if you know what I mean. That can be very useful.

I could do a time-specific commentary on tactical choices if you're interested but Idk if you want to hear that from me >__>

Idk why I would mind. By all means I'm listening.
Easier to respond this way.
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
You should like DI down and away, or do a hard DI in toward him as a mixup when he Upthrows you (make sure to DI the following Uair away too, or else hard DI in goes from good mixup to get combo'd anyways)

It makes everything harder for Falcon except upthrow double Uair by the ledge
Dthrow should really not lead into an easy followup every time after low % where he can chaingrab

A lot of the time you're just like ... going in the best place to get combo'd :|

$mike like never edgeguarded you haha
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
Ok I'll just post whatever stuff I notice then, a lot of it is probably redundant with what I already said

- 0:18 shielded the getup attack, and you rising fair oos when he's clearly at too low a percent to beat a CC. He attempted to CC grab, so you didn't get punished, but if he had done cc nair it would have been pretty bad for you. Grab in that situation is a pretty good reward because of the position

So anyway you land a second fair because he grabs, but it's still at a percent where he can cc. This is more of a judgment call, as opposed to the previous comment, but when that happens I like to just stand there and react to what they do, since they're so likely to either try and grab you (which you're spaced outside of) or do a defensive action out of the CC.

- 0:21 he double jumps above you, im not sure why, and you didn't really do anything. Tech skill error?

- 0:27 that fair that you tried when he was above you shielding on the platform gave up your stage control that you gained from the fsmash, since you did it moving forward and let him get past you. I think a sh uair, or some sort of nair would have worked better

-0:30 another mixup/judgment call thing - after he guesses the tech in place with knee and you techroll, you're at a spacing/situation where it's usually a lot safer to run towards him than run away from him, in my experience. he would have to make an odd read to cover you running towards him, especially since it was the first time in the match that it happened.

-0:38 bair should have been a drop through uair, I think

-0:48 this is a tricky situation and I don't fault you for the option you chose, but I think you could have waited longer on the dtilt, saw he up Bed instead of fastfalling to the edge, and faired him.

-1:03 really odd choice for neutral B... would fair not have sufficed?

-2:07 I know you like fsmash for the psychological aspect, but I think you could have covered the same option with a fair and been able to get his airdodge as well. Airdodging is pretty common from falcon players when recovering like that

-2:09 I think you really need to punish haphazard double jumps like that consistently. It's hard for me to judge exactly without being in the game, but I think by the time you made that read with the bair, it was already clear from his trajectory that he wasn't going in that direction. furthermore I think you could have covered that route with with dd + sh uair, in addition to the one he actually took, by staying under him.

-2:16 another example of a double jump that puts him in a really bad position. when you landed from the nair, I think that was the time to press your advantage, instead of doing a sh fair in place.

-2:40 crucial to reverse that nair

-3:24 though I think uthrowing there is fine, given that you fthrew, you definitely should have dashed forward to where he landed for the techchase

-3:32 nair is way too weak here; I think either rising uair or dair through the platform is better

-3:35 even if you arent sure about the ken combo here, you should still inside fair him =)

-3:41 landing after the bair and fsmashing is better I think

-6:25 I like up b OOS here instead of grab, since at that percent/position you probably won't get him offstage from a grab. up B probably puts him onto the edge and then you get to poke at him and etc.

-6:44 unncessary shield after you land from the uair. He just jumped above you; you can dash out of the way. It's probably an advantaged position for you, not a defensive one. 6:46 as well

-7:13 after that dtilt you don't have to wavedash back so far to get his roll. just stand spaced at a dtilt length and you get pretty much everything except for a really aggressive option, which almost nobody does.

-7:30 I think wavedashing onto the edge works here if you're really fast, even if he does jump back with an aerial immediately. In that case it's lower reward than a counter, but in all the other cases it's way better

-8:08 after the nair hits, again with the grab vs. fair choice at low percents. I think grab is better for reasons stated previously. And again given that you did the second fair I think you should have spaced it farther away and just waited for him to do something. Dtilting like that just lets him roll out

-8:14 overshot nair can be good if they're running back, but he was already cornered. What was that likely to beat? pressing your advantage more methodically here is better, instead of letting him roll out. You did get his roll with side B, but I think you were lucky to get anything after that because he didnt make the right defensive choices. More commonly you would get some small amount of damage and knock him back into the (large) stage.

-8:24 you successfully baited his grab by nairing past his shield, so you definitely should have grabbed him yourself instead of side Bing

-9:06 I think the shield after your fair was also preemptive. What if he was trying to DD grab you instead?

-9:32 really bad shieldgrab imo after the knee on shield... were you trying to predict that he'd dd back and try to grab you? It was a pretty tough situation though.

-9:36 baited another whiffed grab from him with a low lag move; react and punish

-9:48 this is the edgeguard situation I was talkin about in the last post. You did well by standing there and covering airdodges/intimidating him into up Bing. Notice how close he was when he up Bed - you definitely could have swatted that on reaction.

-9:55 another preemptive shield. Even if he was going to run at you and aerial, from that distance you could beat it with one of your moves, or shield later on once he actually does it. You missed a chance to take advantage of him full jumping for no reason.

-10:00 you probably know what was wrong with this edgeguard attempt; your edgeguard choices have mostly been really good up to here

-10:44 if you were quick with a full jump after the tipper fair, I think you could have gotten a strong up B

-11:00 I think you can definitely agree that that shield could have been cut out. You have a point about using shield in this matchup and I'm not saying that its always wrong, just pointing out the times when I think it really hurts/isn't helping, though the effect is small
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Approaching with shield is pretty good AGAINST Marth, but AS Marth against Falcon, I definitely think dash dancing/reacting is better. You don't want Falcon to get a chance to knee/nair->jab pressure your shield (or even straight up grab you :ohwell:).

Also, Falcon is really good at shield stabbing Marth.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Winston, thanks a lot. That was really helpful, and mostly spot on imo.

I see what you mean about him up Bing right in front of me, my instincts from watching that are to jab there tho, as I still feel like I don't cover fastfall to ledge if I commit to a fair. The down tilt that you said I should have waited on was actually perfectly timed for a fastfall to the ledge imo, which is my first priority to cover. Jab I think still covers everything and lets me punish air dodge too.

The spots where you are saying I should grab instead of fairs are me getting too excited about a potential big combo when he's at too low a % for that. If I land an advancing nair my instincts are to immediately go for blood (and most of the time, there will be blood) but I think in a lot of spots I am treating Falcon like spacies and he's just too heavy for some of these low percent fairs, which definitely should be grabs and uairs (on platforms).

In general I fight the instinct to chase double jumpers into the air because that can backfire really fast, but he was doing it sooo much that yea, I should have started looking for it and ****** it.

I had a much better set with Hax this weekend so I feel a lot better about this matchup than I did a couple of weeks ago.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Really nice Marth. Really good commentary by KK too.

I hate/am pretty terrible at that matchup but if I were to say anything its that those full hop fair/bairs from neutral position are pretty unsafe. He punished you for it a lot and you forfeit so much stage control to her when you whiff or she shields them which is really bad.

In general he seemed to be getting turnips out too freely. I think you should try to stay on the ground more and try to punish her turnip pulls with walk up dtilt/ WD dtilt/ quick dash attacks to help stop her from setting up momentum for approaches. I think most Peaches general gameplan against Marth is to get turnips out and get some pressure going asap while guarding themselves defensively with dash attack if you are overzealous about punishing turnip pulls. You can run up to him with shield and just shield grab his dash attack as a decent trick but don't get comfortable with that cause he can easily turn that dash attack into a float cancel bair dsmash if you do it too often.

Hitting peach is really weird, particularly in her float you just need to be a bit closer to her to actually hit her than you normally do (both in front and below her) for some reason. Just something to keep in mind.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
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Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
only thing about Peach vs Marth that I dislike is the feeling like peach can hit me with something outta nowhere. Either I'll get caugh with a sillly Dsmash or hit with a bomb or stitchface or something.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Really nice Marth. Really good commentary by KK too.

I hate/am pretty terrible at that matchup but if I were to say anything its that those full hop fair/bairs from neutral position are pretty unsafe. He punished you for it a lot and you forfeit so much stage control to her when you whiff or she shields them which is really bad.

In general he seemed to be getting turnips out too freely. I think you should try to stay on the ground more and try to punish her turnip pulls with walk up dtilt/ WD dtilt/ quick dash attacks to help stop her from setting up momentum for approaches. I think most Peaches general gameplan against Marth is to get turnips out and get some pressure going asap while guarding themselves defensively with dash attack if you are overzealous about punishing turnip pulls. You can run up to him with shield and just shield grab his dash attack as a decent trick but don't get comfortable with that cause he can easily turn that dash attack into a float cancel bair dsmash if you do it too often.

Hitting peach is really weird, particularly in her float you just need to be a bit closer to her to actually hit her than you normally do (both in front and below her) for some reason. Just something to keep in mind.
I like it. Thanks.

Who's that co-commentator? I want to listen to KK but the other guy is making me >___>
I dunno the guy's tag. He's one of those locals from quebec, who doesn't seem to know what he's talking about imo.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
BRoomer
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Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,501
Location
MT. OLYMPUS, Arizona
LOL yeah I'll likely one of these in. I got some sacred combos of mine already ;).



But I love ForwardB T_T....ok.

anything else? anyone?
Forward B is tight. Some quick forward B advice... If you're going to use Foward B against a 0% Sheik, don't commit to the second hit. It leads into you getting ***** a lot. If they're a bit higher, around 30% or so, It's typically better to do a first hit, second upward hit, and then a third hit down into the meteor. As long as you space the first hit of the Forward B around the tip, and you hit confirm the second hit, the third sets up for an easy techchase or a nice popup for combos. If they end up shielding the third hit, it autospaces itself so they can't shield grab you. They have to WD OOS to punish it, and most Sheiks don't know that. If you notice that they're going to start going OOS to try and punish, then you can mixup going into the fourth hit to interrupt them or attempt to shield stab them.

When you do the second hit too closely or at low percentage, they can either just muscle a grab, CC it, or DI inside of you and punish you with a grab and do big Sheik combos to you.
Typically Forward B is better used as a "check" to stop their movement, force shields, or keep them grounded and within sword range. If you only use the first hit spaced at the tip, it is a lot more difficult for them to CC and punish you.

I only watched the first match, but the Sheik you played against wasn't too good at punishing you for it, but in the future you'll probably run into players that will punish it by just mashing A in your general direction, down smashing, or grabbing you.

I love Forward B. I guess that's how I like to use it.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Who's that co-commentator? I want to listen to KK but the other guy is making me >___>
He's a new Marth player from Quebec. Didn't even know who I was when I sat down to commentate. :p

I asked him to just let me do all the talking quite a few times (in a very non-confrontational way!) but he seemed to want to participate despite claiming extreme fatigue and I'm far too polite to tell someone to fuck off from their own recording setup. :p
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
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6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
Forward B is tight. Some quick forward B advice... If you're going to use Foward B against a 0% Sheik, don't commit to the second hit. It leads into you getting ***** a lot. If they're a bit higher, around 30% or so, It's typically better to do a first hit, second upward hit, and then a third hit down into the meteor. As long as you space the first hit of the Forward B around the tip, and you hit confirm the second hit, the third sets up for an easy techchase or a nice popup for combos. If they end up shielding the third hit, it autospaces itself so they can't shield grab you. They have to WD OOS to punish it, and most Sheiks don't know that. If you notice that they're going to start going OOS to try and punish, then you can mixup going into the fourth hit to interrupt them or attempt to shield stab them.

When you do the second hit too closely or at low percentage, they can either just muscle a grab, CC it, or DI inside of you and punish you with a grab and do big Sheik combos to you.
Typically Forward B is better used as a "check" to stop their movement, force shields, or keep them grounded and within sword range. If you only use the first hit spaced at the tip, it is a lot more difficult for them to CC and punish you.

I only watched the first match, but the Sheik you played against wasn't too good at punishing you for it, but in the future you'll probably run into players that will punish it by just mashing A in your general direction, down smashing, or grabbing you.

I love Forward B. I guess that's how I like to use it.
ah well...if you only watch the first one you missed out on all the other cool stuff that happened(not really):awesome:

anyways good advice though. I noticed the Side-b has good success sometimes now that I know the % to use it on I'll probably use it more sparingly now. It's not the best Sheik but it's still Sheik....thats the whole reason he picks sheik against me is that he doesn't really have to be good with her in order to do well/win. Just a grab or a tilt and i'm dead....really ghey. :urg:
 

Zivilyn Bane

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
3,119
Location
Springfield, MO
Alright dudes. Been a few months since I put a vid on here. I'm still working on my vs Sheik game. I took a lot of advice before and feel much improved in the matchup. I need to advance my game further though. Here is a recent set from a local vs a new Sheik player that is rapidly improving. Any tips are appreciated. If you're only going to watch one game, please watch game 2 on Dream Land (the one I lose) so that way I can get the most out of your help. Much appreciated.

Zivilyn Bane(Marth) vs Terry(Sheik)
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
Some random friendlies.

Me vs PC's Link (anyone actually know this matchup? lol): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R5ICmQwkjo&feature=channel_video_title
First time I played vs a link player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRXZp3I7Sk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdJvUr26hrI

It was so playing this...as well as re-watching this. I'll up load a recent set against a different link soon just to show my own improvements...because well....in 1 year I've got considerably better than I was here...honestly I play semi-scrubby but...ah well LOL.


VS LINK!

I've learned a bit about the MU just threw awkward situations when I've had to play a few good links.

Link in general he's not someone you can beat just by being Marth(get that **** out of your head). Be careful about jumping into his projectiles because they set up ghey combos. If a link misses you with a boomerang make sure you either get on the other side of him before you grab/attack or try to slip the rang when it doubles back. take advantage of link pulling bombs or catching his boomerang...it's a small opening but it's still an opening. If you don't think you'll make it in time though I wouldn't risk it. Uhh...lets see other link stuff.....oh you can beat out link's nair but only if spaced and timed right(which is difficult). I've found it's actually safer to be below his nair(as strange as that sounds) because I can beat hit him with Utilts,Uairs for 1000 years.

Link Recovery is trollable as long as you DON'T GET CUTE with it. WD-edgegrab-roll up works fine but if done too late you'll get caught by his upB. his Perfect Tether is also trollable if you grab ledge-aerial him back off the stage. F-smashing at him is actually the worst of your option because he can just...not get hit by it if they sweet spot.(good links will) Only use if he is far enough from the stage. A counter is also a good option if Link is at decently high % and he's not in position to tether grab. The fancy Spikes and reverse dolphins are risky in this match-up and I wouldn't suggest in a serious match.

Recovering when being Edgeguarded by a good link is a *****! My best advice is be in position for anything and everything. he may drop a Bomb on you, fall/SH off Nair for a trade, hit you with a Rang/Arrow to stop your momentum then simply take ledge roll up, he can wait for you to Air dodge on and up-B, he can fake an off stage edge guard to get an early upB out of you to then kill you with a Dsmash, Ftilt, or his own UpB. Basically Link has more ways to kill you then you have to recover so keep your eyes on him and take the safest way possible to the stage or ledge.
 

!!!RM!!!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
210
Location
Imperial Beach, CA
@Zivilyn Bane: Just some obvious stuff:

-Don't throw out risky Fsmashes and Up B's.
-When Sheik Dthrows at low percents always DI away so they don't get Utilt->Ftilt->Fair bull**** for free. -Away DI limits them to Dthrow->Ftilt until you get up into Dthrow->Fair percents.
-DI Ftilt down and away at all times.
-Don't get grabbed lol.
 

Zivilyn Bane

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
3,119
Location
Springfield, MO
I agree with winston. Most of what I've seen from the pros is to forward b out of downthrow at low percents. Works sometimes but is better than getting chaingrabbed.

I know a vice of mine is the dolphin slash for the kill and I can get over zealous about it. I'll work on that.

Not getting grabbed is hard, but I'll work on that too lol.

:phone:
 
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