Everyone In Smash Bros (Wii U/ 3DS) Feels Well Balanced

[Venks]

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Originally posted on Berathen.com - Go there for better formatting and pictures.
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I've spent more hours than anyone should, playing the Smash Wii U demo and I thought I'd take a moment and reflect on how I felt about the game's character balance.
A lot of the veterans have been tweaked in one way or another and all of the newcomers have a lot to learn about them. I don't pretend that the chaotic time I spent with these characters will reveal the true stature of each character, but none the less I'd like to express what I saw.

Mario

Mario seemed really easy to pick up and play compared to the rest of the cast.
He surprisingly has very little lag on any of his aerials and still has his amazing fireball that sets him up for great approaches.

Bowser

Bowser was my second most played character. The buffs to this guy are huge. Faster attacks make it a lot easier to punish poor choices from your opponent.
Like all heavy weights in this game he KOs faster and takes longer to be knocked out compared to how he was in Brawl.

Bowser's back air is a powerful KO move in the air due to how fast it comes out, but still has a good amount of lag on landing. Bowser's new spiking down air seems really useless offstage since it pulls Bowser downwards without a bounce-on-hit like Link or Greninja. Thanks to aerial spikes now providing ground bounces I feel like this move has a lot of hidden potential.
Oh and that super armor on Bowser's up smash makes for a great anti-air. I'm no longer afraid of Fox down airs into up tilts.

Rosalina

Rosalina & Luma are really hard to figure out in chaotic four person FFAs with items on. None the less she has strong aerials with decent speed. Her smash attacks are really strong when used in tandem with Luma.
She seemed pretty average, but a friend of mine was destroying with her. She'll definitely be an interesting character when we figure out her combos with Luma.

Donkey Kong

Donkey Kong is looking improved in this game. His new dash attack isn't quite as good as it is in Project M, but it's definitely an improvement. The slight speed increase is also vastly appreciated and makes landing his side special so much easier.

Samus

Samus has been buffed pretty hard. Her bombs from her down special come out faster then they did in Brawl. Samus's charge shot KOs a lot faster this time around.
Samus's Screw Attack isn't the crazy KO move people make it out to be, but it does have better knock back and is a safer move to use. Samus's up smash has more KO power and her side smash has more range. Samus's nair now hits both sides and is a pretty fast attack.

All of these buffs to Samus still don't seem to make her as strong as Sakurai implied, but she is multitudes better than she was in Brawl.

Zero Suit Samus

Zero Suit Samus was amazing in Brawl and she's only been buffed in Smash 4.
Her down special burying grounded opponents allows for stupid combos combined with her down smash. Her new up special comes out really fast and is a decent KO move.

Zero Suit becoming better in this game wasn't really needed with how good she was in Brawl, but to be fair she doesn't really seem too much stronger then the rest of the cast. She is by no means the Meta Knight of this game and a lot of Brawl's lower tier characters are looking stronger as well.

Link

Link truly has a chance to shine in this iteration of Smash. First and foremost Link is a lot heavier and thus harder to knock off the stage. And even when that happens his sword spin up special has more vertical ascension this time around.
As an added bonus, Link's grapple hook reaches absurdly far and makes for a great recovery.
With so much survivability, Link can focus on using his increased speed and power to knock some players out. Everything in his moveset just seems to hit harder and thus he lands KOs a lot faster than he did in Brawl. Link is a true contender this time around.

Zelda

Zelda has been nerfed hard. Less Knock back and damage on ALL of her smash attacks. Thankfully her up air has been buffed and looks to deal more damage, knockback, and has more active frames. Overall she feels weaker than she did in Brawl, but I'm hoping that I simply haven't found her new strengths in Smash 4.

Villager

Villager is very, very good. Can combo out of his down throw and has a solid projectile with fAir and bAir. His tilts are actually decent KO moves and seem superior to his smash attacks.
The Lloid Rocket is an amazing projectile or recovery and is a really safe option for Villager. His up special is really fast and allows him to recover from pretty crazy distances. His down special is a little situational, but the tree is great for stalling and also KOs around 50% when chopped down. He can very quickly bury opponents with his down smash which of course makes it very easy to land his KO inducing bowling ball.
Villager has several tools that make for a very strong character. Do not sleep on this guy.

Pit

Pit seems largely the same only without gliding or his shenanigans with his old up special. His arrows are less effective because they vanish faster. His side special has super armor and KOs around 100%.

Pit still looks to be one of the stronger characters because of his strong aerials and above average range.

Kirby

Kirby seems really good and works really well out of his tilt attacks. The nerf to DI has also made his dash attack and down air far more usable. His down special seems slower so that's a small nerf.
But as everyone has seen from the Invitational his throws are really strong and KO early on if not overused.

Fox

Fox still looks good in my eyes, but I'm comparing him to Brawl Fox rather than Melee Fox. His up smash and up air seem tamed, but they're still solid KO moves. Fox just has to work a bit harder to rack up damage now then he did before.

Marth

Marth feels the same as he did in Brawl. Perhaps with the game being more ground based he'll be able to use that to his advantage. And even then he can still forward air into forward air. Just not out of short hop.

Greninja

Greninja is good in a lot of areas. Solid aerials, tilts, and smashes. He can do true combos out of his down air and the move is even safe on block. His smash attacks are a bit on the slower side, but make up for it with their great range and KO power.

A lot of people seem to be looking at Greninja as one of the stronger characters, but to me he doesn't seem any stronger than say Pit. His up smash is pretty incredible with its start up as a vertical KO and ending as a horizontal KO, but the significant lag looks to make up for it. His special attacks are good, but don't seem any more powerful than any one else's.
Shadow Sneak is a very unique move and isn't quite as obvious as I thought it was originally. But I'm not quite sure how effective it'll be in a 1v1.

Pikachu

Pikachu looks really strong in Smash 4. It's a shame you can still SDI out of his down smash, but aside from that he looks to be getting more effective range on some of his standard attacks.

Olimar

Olimar is still a really good character. He has slightly less range on his attacks and only having three Pikmin makes it easy for him to not have one to use nearby.
I think this is a fair trade given how strong his smash attacks are and how good his new recovery move is.

Little Mac

The character I played the most, more than anyone in the world outside Nintendo, was Little Mac.
He has the second fastest dash in the game and some of the fastest attacks as well.
Combine these attributes with super armor and he's a legitimate threat. He doesn't have a solid answer for players who camp on top of platforms, but he doesn't outright lose as long as he doesn't get caught in the air.

Little Mac can rack up damage and knock out opponents exceptionally fast.
He doesn't have much KO power while his opponent is in the air, but his Rising Uppercut special comes out really fast and is great for catching opponents directly above. With all of these great tools, I have to say Little Mac is far from being a low tier character.

Wii Fit Trainer

Wii Fit Trainer seems really quirky. I just don't know how exactly she's going to move her body when ever I press a button. That said I love that she can buff herself and then bury opponents into the ground via a jab combo. There is potential here if we can figure her out.

Mega Man

Mega Man is another of the hard characters to use in four person FFAs.
His projectiles are a bit on the slow side so they weren't very useful in the chaotic fights. His aerials though are all really good attacks. Especially his fAir which has amazing speed, range, and knock back. Oh and his up Air can claim KOs pretty early on if positioned correctly.

I have a lot of faith in Mega Man being a good character. Once we get him into some 1v1s I think there will be a lot more appreciation for his Metal Blade. I'm always a fan of characters that can control diagonal space with projectiles. It's something nice to have against short hopping, aerial happy, opponents.

Sonic

Lastly Sonic seems much better this time around. Multi-hit attacks are just so much better in this game. Also it's a lot harder to tell when he's using his homing attack and it comes out a bit faster.

Summary

I'm really liking the bulk of buffs and nerfs we see in Super Smash Bros 4.
I can actually imagine having a good time with Bowser against the entirety of the cast rather than feel exceptionally out classed. There's no match-up thus far that I feel would just be an automatic loss. This seems to be the case with a lot of the low tier characters as they have been buffed pretty nicely.

On the other end of the fence, I'm happy to see none of the higher tier characters look to be too strong. Zero Suit Samus has really good range and power, but her speed is definitely lacking compared to a bunch of the other fighters.
Sakurai has said that the game is still in the process of being tweaked, so perhaps when the game releases it'll solve a few of its problems.
I have a lot of faith in the Smash Development Team after playing this demo and can't wait to try my hand at this game competitively.

 

[Pyra]

So many good analysis threads from you, man.
Awesome.

 

[4cast]

I'd like to add some stuff bout the 3DS Characters
Sheik
God if nothing changes From this game to release then Sheik is going to be top tier for sure! Her needles auto cancel like melee so do her Fair and Bair Her tilts only push you away ever so slightly to hit again And Her Grenades have a Suction Effect!
Yoshi
essentially He has been Buffed in Speed and Power has a new Dash and Up Smash And....HE CAN JUMP OUT OF SHEILD!

Toon Link Clone as always

Luigi
He has a new grab And Down Throw which is freaking amazing for combo's and Green Missile can Miss Fire to Mess with Your Opponents >

 

[Game7a1]

This sounds good news to me. With SDCC coming up, anymore things from the 3DS (and lesser extent the Wii U) version can be found in good detail.

 

[cmbsfm]

A nice analysis, this is very good to hear.

 

[Vann Accessible]

Nice analysis.

Tough I am really confused why they nerfed Zelda. She was already one of the worst characters in Brawl. Maybe they'll nerf Ganondorf too.

 

[micstar615]

I'm kind of disappointed in the Zelda nerf since she's a character I've mained since melee, and she was pretty horrible in brawl. Here's hoping they improve her before release.

Really happy to hear about the rest of the characters though, I look forward to playing as Rosalina

 

[Fatmanonice]

Zelda's nerfs seem the most nonsensical of any character. One of the worst characters in the game made even worse? I'm not even a Zelda main but I'm genuinely curious about what the developers' reasoning was behind her nerfs. Even if you play the game casually and know nothing about tiers, Zelda's far from being an intimidating character. Ike I could understand but Zelda?

 

[4cast]

Zelda's nerfs seem the most nonsensical of any character. One of the worst characters in the game made even worse? I'm not even a Zelda main but I'm genuinely curious about what the developers' reasoning was behind her nerfs. Even if you play the game casually and know nothing about tiers, Zelda's far from being an intimidating character. Ike I could understand but Zelda?

I know right?! they buff ZSS who was already good yet Nerf Zelda and also Buff Sheik? why? they were already good characters!
I seriously Pray this does not happen to Peach

 

[dimensionsword64]

This is a really good analysis! Thanks!

 

[pickle962]

Zelda's nerfs seem the most nonsensical of any character. One of the worst characters in the game made even worse? I'm not even a Zelda main but I'm genuinely curious about what the developers' reasoning was behind her nerfs. Even if you play the game casually and know nothing about tiers, Zelda's far from being an intimidating character. Ike I could understand but Zelda?

Perhaps finetuning other characters for the demo took precedence over Zelda? Or perhaps she was a last minute addition to the demo roster?

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Zelda must have some hidden strength that we don't know about. They wouldn't nerf one of the worst characters for no reason.

 

[yahooda]

I'm so glad Link got buffed

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Zelda is really strong among weak players in Brawl, like she is one of the most damaging characters in that setting. They may just be accepting that this poorly designed for competitive 1v1 character will always be bad in that format and just focusing on making her work well within a different environment.

Almost everything you said matched my experiences, but I can comment on a few points which as it turns out are just about newcomers...

Greninja mostly seems like one of the best because he has, in my opinion, the flat out best set of aerials out of any demo chracter. I mean, seriously, that up air is just godly, and put it in the same moveset with the rest of those great aerials and a ground game that can transition into an air game... That's where the love comes from; I wasn't even using his special moves except to recover and rarely be a little annoying with Water Shuriken which is an amazing projectile just not a part of his core competency which is aerial gameplay. If the demo were the whole game, I'd definitely main Greninja; he just feels powerful, and his style is pretty perfectly in line with what I want from a character.

I really thought I was the only one who noticed how good Mega Man's fair was. I disagree about Metal Blade though; I think it moves just too slowly and does too little on hit to zone effectively even with 8-directional movement. I found it more effective to just space a bit and punish landings with fsmash... which was actually really easy to do since Mega Man's fsmash is surprisngly fast if you don't charge it.

What you said about Villager was interesting; I saw ftilt being used a ton as a spacing tool (and it seemed like one of his best moves used like that), but I rarely saw utilt or dtilt used. Which of these tilts were proving themselves to be KO moves? I mostly wasn't impressed because I didn't see a solid playstyle begin to develop for him out of his gimmicky moveset, but you had a lot more time than I did and make it sound like you saw Villager a lot. I'm interested in how that played out.

I thought Rosalina seemed really easy to just rush down and force apart from Luma. Did you find any good basic defensive stuff with her? My biggest fear for her is that Luma won't really be that helpful because it will be too easy to separate them with good offensive play, and without Luma, I don't think she'll prove that strong. It sounds like one of your crew got some good time in with her so I'm curious what strats he was using to deal with that.

What exactly did Wii Fit Trainer's power-up seem to do for her? I was never able to really pin that down, and I was beginning to suspect it was smarter just not to use the move. She was so rarely seen for me though; I just read her as "high speed, high power, bad hitboxes" and figured she was going to develop into a precision character.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I really wish I could hear more about Sonic. I don't want him to have the same general hit and run playstyle. I never wanted to play Sonic that way, and I don't want to in this game.

@ 4cast There really isn't anything else you can say about Toon Link execpt that?

 

[Venks]

So many good analysis threads from you, man.
Awesome.

Thanks! I'm glad you've been liking my threads!

Zelda is really strong among weak players in Brawl, like she is one of the most damaging characters in that setting. They may just be accepting that this poorly designed for competitive 1v1 character will always be bad in that format and just focusing on making her work well within a different environment.

Almost everything you said matched my experiences, but I can comment on a few points which as it turns out are just about newcomers...

Greninja mostly seems like one of the best because he has, in my opinion, the flat out best set of aerials out of any demo chracter. I mean, seriously, that up air is just godly, and put it in the same moveset with the rest of those great aerials and a ground game that can transition into an air game... That's where the love comes from; I wasn't even using his special moves except to recover and rarely be a little annoying with Water Shuriken which is an amazing projectile just not a part of his core competency which is aerial gameplay. If the demo were the whole game, I'd definitely main Greninja; he just feels powerful, and his style is pretty perfectly in line with what I want from a character.

I really thought I was the only one who noticed how good Mega Man's fair was. I disagree about Metal Blade though; I think it moves just too slowly and does too little on hit to zone effectively even with 8-directional movement. I found it more effective to just space a bit and punish landings with fsmash... which was actually really easy to do since Mega Man's fsmash is surprisngly fast if you don't charge it.

What you said about Villager was interesting; I saw ftilt being used a ton as a spacing tool (and it seemed like one of his best moves used like that), but I rarely saw utilt or dtilt used. Which of these tilts were proving themselves to be KO moves? I mostly wasn't impressed because I didn't see a solid playstyle begin to develop for him out of his gimmicky moveset, but you had a lot more time than I did and make it sound like you saw Villager a lot. I'm interested in how that played out.

I thought Rosalina seemed really easy to just rush down and force apart from Luma. Did you find any good basic defensive stuff with her? My biggest fear for her is that Luma won't really be that helpful because it will be too easy to separate them with good offensive play, and without Luma, I don't think she'll prove that strong. It sounds like one of your crew got some good time in with her so I'm curious what strats he was using to deal with that.

What exactly did Wii Fit Trainer's power-up seem to do for her? I was never able to really pin that down, and I was beginning to suspect it was smarter just not to use the move. She was so rarely seen for me though; I just read her as "high speed, high power, bad hitboxes" and figured she was going to develop into a precision character.

I feel the same way with Zelda. Some of my more casual friends think Zelda is the best character in the game. So yeah I think they're trying to reduce her FFA potency without making her too bad in the format. And thus we end up with a Zelda that just isn't appealing in 1v1. To be fair her aerials have improved along with her recovery, but it doesn't seem like a balanced trade in the least.

As for Villager I didn't actually touch him at all. A friend of mine who I consider to be one of the best players in Victoria played nothing but Villager. She picked up the character incredibly quickly and was just doing amazing things with the guy.
Here's her notes:

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VILLAGER:
Jab: Punches with boxing gloves. 2% per hit. Unknown if there's a jab combo since all he ever did was just keep punching.

Side Tilt: Swipes with umbrella. 8%. Nice range and also nice for killing.

Down Tilt: Pulls grass from ground. Damage varies depending on where you get hit. 4-6% if right in middle of grass. 7-9% if you get hit by the grass pulled/hit at the edge of the grass.

Up Tilt: Swirls a stick in the air. There are two parts to this move: 1) the initial hitbox @ the beginning, which has low knockback and knocks the opponent into the 2nd hitbox, 2) the hitbox that knocks the opponent upwards (at low percentages) but for some reason, sideways @ higher percentages. 3-5% with both hits. Can be used for killing.

Neutral Air: Spins around (like Lucas' nair). Moderate damage but rather low knockback. Its range is also lacking. 7-9%.

Forward Air: Fires a small object (can't tell if it's berry or rock or whatever though) on a slingshot. Reaches about roughly 2 and half Villagers in front of him. 4-10%. Surprising amount of knockback scaling on it makes it a viable killing move.
(I have a feeling it does more/less damage based on how far it has travelled, but I have no way to confirm this)

Back Air: Same as forward air, except backwards + less damage. 6-7%.

Down Air: Thrusts turnips downwards. Amount of turnips vary randomly. More turnips = more damage + more knockback.
1 turnip: 3-4%. Pitiful knockback.
2 turnips: 5%. Decent but still pretty bad knockback.
3 turnips: 7-10%. Nice knockback.
(There seems to be an extremely small sweetspot that spikes enemies, but even with 3 turnips it is ridiculously hard to get that spike to work).

Neutral B: Pocket projectiles. Works with literally EVERYTHING. Megaman's side smash, Yellow Devil's Eye-shots (or something), Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation, Zelda's Phantom attack etc.
NOTE: It seems you lose the projectile you take if you take enough damage; enough damage being a small amount considering how easily Villager kept dropping that baseball bat he pocketed.
Also you can't pocket Smash Balls or Assist Trophies.
Unknown if redirected projectile is stronger/weaker.

UNFINISHED:
Uair: Same as down air. ?%, but with 3 turnips it can kill very efficiently.

Side Smash: Drops bowling ball. Very nice damage + knockback, but oh-so hard to hit with because of the startup time.

Down Smash: Buries opponents on both sides. Leads well into his side smash. Or pocketed baseball bats 8D.

Up Smash: Activates fireworks. Very nice range, but the strongest hitbox is small and in the direct centre of the attack. There are smaller hitboxes near the edge of the move.

Side B: Fires a Lloid Rocket. Villager can just send it off on its own or ride it to deal more damage. It goes for about 1 and third Battlefield length before it explodes on its own. Very good for horizontal recovery, but there is lag when you jump off and when you hit something.
Notes:
- If Villager rides on it and it explodes, he doesn't take damage BUT he is thrown into helpless state (i.e. can't do anything until he lands).
- You can jump off the rocket early, but you will still be in helpless state (which makes sense otherwise Villager is always going to be able to recover from any part of the screen).
- If Villager rides on it BUT it hits an enemy, he'll jump off and WON'T be in helpless state. Yes, you can spam rockets all day, provided they hit.

Down B: Plants a sapling, waters it, and chops it down. Very, very, useful + insane amount of knockback. There are 3 stages to this:
1. Planting the sapling. That's all you're ever going to do in your first use of down B.
2. Watering. Once the sapling is planted, you can use the watering can anywhere. It's essentially the same as Mario's F.L.U.D.D or Squirtle's Water Gun attack... but spammable + instant. Use it offstage to make everyone cry (maaaaybe not against Little Mac or Link; they have it tough already).
3. There is a tree. You now have the axe. The axe can be used anywhere, even in air. It deals about 15-20% per hit. And it's instant.
The catch? Its range is only a little bit better than Jigglypuff's rest. And it has lag.
Buuuut... if you chop the tree, and tree hits someone, it does ridiculous damage + kills very quickly.
Note: You can roll around the tree.

Up B: Gets balloon hat. Flies up really quickly if you spam B. YOU MUST KEEP PRESSING B, EVEN IF SLOWLY.
This is because if you stop pressing B, you WILL descend quickly. And the momentum is hard to stop. Can't tell you how many times I've died because of that.

Grab: Pulls the net out. As far as grabs go, it's pretty bad. But my main was Ness, so don't take my word for it.
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Villager can deal a lot of damage really quickly and is ridiculously safe with a lot of his attacks. I expect a lot out of this character.

As for Rosalina we didn't get to figure out anything for her defensively. So I can't help you there.

Wii Fit Trainer seems pretty cool, but yeah her attacks have very awkward range. Her down special increases her damage and knock back output. It also makes her jab combo bury opponents into the ground on the last hit. It might have other effects as well, but that's all I noticed.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I really wish I could hear more about Sonic. I don't want him to have the same general hit and run playstyle. I never wanted to play Sonic that way, and I don't want to in this game.

@ 4cast There really isn't anything else you can say about Toon Link execpt that?

You seem like you'd be interested in my full impressions, which talk about the 3DS only characters to some greater extent and also talk about Sonic some:

http://smashboards.com/threads/my-smash-4-best-buy-demo-info-impression-extravagganza.358436/

I will say this about those two here. I didn't play Toon Link personally and was relying on a friend's information for him, but he thought Toon Link had a longer sword (and that it was especially evident for bair) and noted that Toon Link's plunging dair no longer bounces. He seemed to think Toon Link still seemed better than the other Link but that it was a lot closer this time.

Sonic's main improvement is that he seems a lot better at scoring kill moves so he's less likely to get stuck in that hell where you're running in circles unable for the life of you to finish stocks. The general dynamics of the game probably will let him play offense more than he did in Brawl as with all characters, but he's still Sonic and not Fox so his playstyle will still at its core be Sonic.

As a whole, I pretty much agree with almost everything Venks is saying here though; there are minor details here and there we feel differently about, but by and large, I think we have the same read on this game. The game feels very well balanced, and I'm really, really excited to see it play out for real.

 

[Katy Parry]

I'm very surprised you say this. As a Zelda main, a competitve Project M player, and a player since Melee, I feel Zelda has been buffed, and has several things going for her, Especially for a 1v1 match up: (I played Zelda at the Best Buy event)

Din's Fire core is buffed, its now a kill move/has great knockback
Farore's Wind (when landing) is now a kill move/has great knockback
Nayru's Love has little landing lag and covers a larger area)
Phantom can be used offstage to stop horizontal recoveries (hello Fox Illusion) and has great knockback/kill move
Phantom can be instacast for a meat shield/intercept
Fair/Bair/Dair have been buffed, kill even earlier than before
Uair has more damage, lasts longer, more knockback
Grabs are still powerful
Fsmash and UpSmash, while weaker with KO potential, are seemingly guaranteed to hit more/fully and draw characters towards Zelda, into the hitbox
Uptilt is now a combo move, pretty much a useless kill move before hand
Ftilt is now a kill move

In fact, I think she's much better in a 1v1 situation rather than a free for all

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'm very surprised you say this. As a Zelda main, a competitve Project M player, and a player since Melee, I feel Zelda has been buffed, and has several things going for her, Especially for a 1v1 match up: (I played Zelda at the Best Buy event)

Din's Fire core is buffed, its now a kill move/has great knockback
Farore's Wind (when landing) is now a kill move/has great knockback
Nayru's Love has little landing lag and covers a larger area)
Phantom can be used offstage to stop horizontal recoveries (hello Fox Illusion) and has great knockback/kill move
Phantom can be instacast for a meat shield/intercept
Fair/Bair/Dair have been buffed, kill even earlier than before
Uair has more damage, lasts longer, more knockback
Grabs are still powerful
Fsmash and UpSmash, while weaker with KO potential, are seemingly guaranteed to hit more/fully and draw characters towards Zelda, into the hitbox
Uptilt is now a combo move, pretty much a useless kill move before hand
Ftilt is now a kill move

In fact, I think she's much better in a 1v1 situation rather than a free for all

How fast is the phantom and how useful is it overall? Does Zelda play more offensively or is she still more defensive?

 

[SmashChu]

Nice analysis.

Tough I am really confused why they nerfed Zelda. She was already one of the worst characters in Brawl. Maybe they'll nerf Ganondorf too.

Zelda was amazing in a free-for-all. It's the same reason they nerfed Link in Brawl. Lack of DI would still be an overall buff to her though.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I was about to go through point by point, but I'll tone it down. Zelda's special moves are all really slow; in a 1v1, Din's and Phantom are of almost zero use due to being just that slow (IMO Phantom is the single worst move in the demo on any character), Farore's is likewise too slow to ever hit with as an attack, and Nayru's is laggy and kills your already limited mobility. Uair is a really nice buff (I don't think it's actually more power though; I'm unconvinced likewise on power increases for all of her aerials), but her core problem of having basically zero spatial control in the air combined with awful aerial mobility is not really addressed by simply having one move with good hitboxes above her. Up smash is such a massive nerf; it was by far her best move in Brawl with serious power and massive hitboxes, but now, it hits about half the old area for less power so SDI changes or not it's still a massive, massive downgrade that more than offsets any of her gains. Her grab has also always been one of the lesser ones and hasn't changed; she doesn't have unusually good throws, and the grab itself is unusually laggy on whiff so when you try to grab with her you're just taking more risk than other characters without substantial gains to the reward.

I mean, things can change before the final build. Maybe Zelda will have some big buffs before the game comes out. Maybe she has some custom moves that make her generally terrible special moves strong. We can't know that so, if you're a big Zelda fan, you shouldn't be too discouraged, but for serious, Zelda is just not good in the demo build at all. The NoA guys told us they do read these forums so we shouldn't sugarcoat this to make people feel better; Zelda is an atrociously bad 1v1 character in the demo. The other 23 are pretty great so we have to love the balance as a whole, but Zelda is really just not where she needs to be in this old build. Sorry

 

[greenluigiman2]

@ Amazing Ampharos You're completely exaggerating how bad Zelda is in the demo build. A lot of the things you say are bad are actually decent. Farore's Wind is actually pretty fast and can be used both more offensively and more defensively now. Farore's Wind can also combo into itself. Phantom Slash could use some offensive buffs, but one thing about it is that the uncharged version comes out fast enough to be an effective defensive move. The Phantom will stay on the stage for a second or two after it's summoned and Zelda can use that to her advantage. It's also a good edge guarding move. While some of her moves got nerfed others got buffed, I think she's better than she is in Brawl.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

You seem like you'd be interested in my full impressions, which talk about the 3DS only characters to some greater extent and also talk about Sonic some:

http://smashboards.com/threads/my-smash-4-best-buy-demo-info-impression-extravagganza.358436/

I will say this about those two here. I didn't play Toon Link personally and was relying on a friend's information for him, but he thought Toon Link had a longer sword (and that it was especially evident for bair) and noted that Toon Link's plunging dair no longer bounces. He seemed to think Toon Link still seemed better than the other Link but that it was a lot closer this time.

Sonic's main improvement is that he seems a lot better at scoring kill moves so he's less likely to get stuck in that hell where you're running in circles unable for the life of you to finish stocks. The general dynamics of the game probably will let him play offense more than he did in Brawl as with all characters, but he's still Sonic and not Fox so his playstyle will still at its core be Sonic.

As a whole, I pretty much agree with almost everything Venks is saying here though; there are minor details here and there we feel differently about, but by and large, I think we have the same read on this game. The game feels very well balanced, and I'm really, really excited to see it play out for real.

Thank you. A bit disappointed that Toon Link's Dair does not bounce, but I can live with it. I wonder which Link I'll playing more in the final product. As for Sonic, I'm glad that there may be a rise in his offensive aspects.

And to think, this isn't even the whole roster. There were still handful of characters that weren't available. It will be very exciting to see how the whole roster stacks up with each other.

 

[Katy Parry]

How fast is the phantom and how useful is it overall? Does Zelda play more offensively or is she still more defensive?

Zelda, IMO, is a more defensive player. Giving her a kill move with Farore's Wind promotes her to teleport after her opponent makes a mistake. You can even COMBO with the first and second hit of Farore's Wind at certain %s. She'll be able to punish people really hard if they mess up. That's always been the center of Zelda's playstyle.

Phantom will instantly come out just by pressing down B. She can act before the Phantom leaves as well, allowing her to grab/follow up. If you're trying to intercept, you can jump off stage, charge down B fully, release it, and double jump back and landing on the stage.

I was about to go through point by point, but I'll tone it down. Zelda's special moves are all really slow; in a 1v1, Din's and Phantom are of almost zero use due to being just that slow (IMO Phantom is the single worst move in the demo on any character), Farore's is likewise too slow to ever hit with as an attack, and Nayru's is laggy and kills your already limited mobility. Uair is a really nice buff (I don't think it's actually more power though; I'm unconvinced likewise on power increases for all of her aerials), but her core problem of having basically zero spatial control in the air combined with awful aerial mobility is not really addressed by simply having one move with good hitboxes above her. Up smash is such a massive nerf; it was by far her best move in Brawl with serious power and massive hitboxes, but now, it hits about half the old area for less power so SDI changes or not it's still a massive, massive downgrade that more than offsets any of her gains. Her grab has also always been one of the lesser ones and hasn't changed; she doesn't have unusually good throws, and the grab itself is unusually laggy on whiff so when you try to grab with her you're just taking more risk than other characters without substantial gains to the reward.

I mean, things can change before the final build. Maybe Zelda will have some big buffs before the game comes out. Maybe she has some custom moves that make her generally terrible special moves strong. We can't know that so, if you're a big Zelda fan, you shouldn't be too discouraged, but for serious, Zelda is just not good in the demo build at all. The NoA guys told us they do read these forums so we shouldn't sugarcoat this to make people feel better; Zelda is an atrociously bad 1v1 character in the demo. The other 23 are pretty great so we have to love the balance as a whole, but Zelda is really just not where she needs to be in this old build. Sorry

Yeah... I don't really agree with half of this after my time playing the demo. I'm not saying she's got tier, but she's received several buffs, and I pointed most of them out. Din's and Phantom are good off stage chase tools to apply pressure. Din's may not go very far but if she hits them off stage at a decent perfect, they're pretty much done for.

Also, Phantom is going to be excellent for edge guarding:

Farore's Wind is NOT slow. In fact, its speed has been BUFFED!

And this video showing off Zelda's insane FW knockback https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHK4x4qB9ME

 

[Pazzo.]

Very interesting read. Glad to hear that even in the demo version, there's good balance in the game.

If anyone has it, I'd be very interested in how Yoshi has improved. I'm a fan of good mobility, I just couldn't ever get the hang of him.

 

[Kevandre]

I loved Zelda in Melee but kinda bailed on her in Brawl/PM. I'm interested to see who's right about buffs/nerfs...

 

[Pazzo.]

With all this new info, I'm super interested in how Ness is going to turn out.

 

[Lugubrious]

Really liking both the analysis and the ensuing discussion.

I must admit, my faith in Zelda's viability was at an all-time low until you posted, Ethanrodgers. The video you linked is proof that Zelda may be a greater threat than most people realize.

Keep up the good stuff, everyone!

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

You actually think Marth is still good? All of the Marth mains, including myself, think he got nerfed to hell. Ken even said that they broke Marth harder than they did in Brawl.

 

[alex6309]

Zelda's probably just bad now because people haven't realized her strengths yet. Even characters like Bowser, who has a new moveset, or Little Mac, a newcomer, have clear strengths and weaknesses and you have an idea on what you're going to be playing like. Zelda has a completely changed strategy compared to her previous incarnations which makes adjusting difficult.

 

[JCDied4U]

Nice analysis.

Tough I am really confused why they nerfed Zelda. She was already one of the worst characters in Brawl. Maybe they'll nerf Ganondorf too.

Ganondorf's side special will now only kill him when he suicide grabs an opponent.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Nice analysis.

Tough I am really confused why they nerfed Zelda. She was already one of the worst characters in Brawl. Maybe they'll nerf Ganondorf too.

Oh god I hope not. I want to play as Ganon again and not get laughed at.

 

[makegoodchoices]

You actually think Marth is still good? All of the Marth mains, including myself, think he got nerfed to hell. Ken even said that they broke Marth harder than they did in Brawl.

Did you try out the 3DS version of the game? I thought the main problem with Marth was the landing lag on aerials, which, don't get me wrong, I agree really hurts Marth. I'm just wondering if the 3DS Marth has less landing lag, and if it does, that should make Marth decent again - however, this is coming from someone who hasn't played the demo, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

You actually think Marth is still good? All of the Marth mains, including myself, think he got nerfed to hell. Ken even said that they broke Marth harder than they did in Brawl.

And look where Marth is in the Brawl tiers. Marth has quite possibly the most disgusting design of any Smash character. Great mobility? Check. Fast attacks? Check. Short reach to compensate? Nope. Infact, his reach is enormous and rewards the player for abusing it to it's maximum potential. No matter how much Sakurai "nerfs" Marth he will always be a great character because his design is full of positive attributes that easily outweigh his mediocre recovery and lack of a projectile.

Aside from Dtilt, pretty much every one of Marth's attacks looks bigger than Brawl to me and I have no idea where people are getting the idea that "his sword was shortened again!" or "he wields a ****ing dagger now" from. Yeah okay, Fair is laggier now, so what? Marth has another good aerial approach; Nair. Bair looks so far to be a replacement Fair too, it's very fast on start and to finish.

Ken also said he was considering maining Lucina, who is from what we can tell, nearly the same as Marth. I doubt she'll be pre-Smash 4 Marth reborn. Call it a hunch.

Inb4 Marth's still in the upper half of the tiers.

 

[VGM1]

Really happy to hear that Sonic, Bowser and Olimar are all really solid. Hoping that Wolf's announced as soon as possible and see what's different.

 

[D-idara]

I really wish I could hear more about Sonic. I don't want him to have the same general hit and run playstyle. I never wanted to play Sonic that way, and I don't want to in this game.

@ 4cast There really isn't anything else you can say about Toon Link execpt that?

Why wouldn't you want to play Sonic like Sonic? That's like saying Mario shouldn't be balanced all-around, or Link shouldn't have a variety of projectiles, or DK shouldn't be strong and feel heavy.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Zelda, IMO, is a more defensive player. Giving her a kill move with Farore's Wind promotes her to teleport after her opponent makes a mistake. You can even COMBO with the first and second hit of Farore's Wind at certain %s. She'll be able to punish people really hard if they mess up. That's always been the center of Zelda's playstyle.

Phantom will instantly come out just by pressing down B. She can act before the Phantom leaves as well, allowing her to grab/follow up. If you're trying to intercept, you can jump off stage, charge down B fully, release it, and double jump back and landing on the stage.


Yeah... I don't really agree with half of this after my time playing the demo. I'm not saying she's got tier, but she's received several buffs, and I pointed most of them out. Din's and Phantom are good off stage chase tools to apply pressure. Din's may not go very far but if she hits them off stage at a decent perfect, they're pretty much done for.

Also, Phantom is going to be excellent for edge guarding:

Farore's Wind is NOT slow. In fact, its speed has been BUFFED!

And this video showing off Zelda's insane FW knockback https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHK4x4qB9ME

1. That was an edge canceled farrows wind.

2. That theory crafting is solid, but do you know whether or not the Phantom puts you in free fall?

3. On foxes side, you are assuming that he isn't DI'ing correctly.

4. If you miss space your Phantom it can get hit by a Foxcopter.

5. Fox can illusion in this game without going into free fall, so he has multiple recovery options.

For Phantom to be remotely effective, he needs some super armor, which is ironic, since you would expect that from a suit of armor.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Why wouldn't you want to play Sonic like Sonic? That's like saying Mario shouldn't be balanced all-around, or Link shouldn't have a variety of projectiles, or DK shouldn't be strong and feel heavy.

Yeah, I exaggerated a lot with my wording. I don't dislike Sonic's playstyle at all, but I would still like to get a little more agressive when I play as him, because sometimes that's my playstyle. I may enjoy Link's projectiles for instance, but what's the problem if I personally want to focus on sword attacks more, even if it doesn't generally benefit Link from a competitive stance?

 

[Canuckduck]

And yet some of the hardcore Melee players will go to their graves screaming about how this game doesn't have wavedashing or l-canceling...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

@ Amazing Ampharos You're completely exaggerating how bad Zelda is in the demo build. A lot of the things you say are bad are actually decent. Farore's Wind is actually pretty fast and can be used both more offensively and more defensively now. Farore's Wind can also combo into itself. Phantom Slash could use some offensive buffs, but one thing about it is that the uncharged version comes out fast enough to be an effective defensive move. The Phantom will stay on the stage for a second or two after it's summoned and Zelda can use that to her advantage. It's also a good edge guarding move. While some of her moves got nerfed others got buffed, I think she's better than she is in Brawl.

Farrow's wind seems to be her only significant buff. That an a faster U-tilt.

Nerfs:

-D-tilt is slow
-Din's Fire is Garbo
-D-tilt is much slower
-Reduced kill power on F-tilt
-Slower jab
-She still retains everything that made her bad in Brawl.

I'm not saying she can't be good in the right hands, but it's significantly harder to do so with little benefit, that's just how things are sometimes, of course, there is still time to change things.

I main Captain Falcon in Brawl, and I do fine (Some people think I'm the best Falcon in SoCal lol), but I'm not gonna deny a characters shortcomings and claim they are something more than they are.