Edge Hogging, Wavedashing, Shorthopping, and L-Cancelling.

[ItsChon]

The title says it all. These are the things I'm struggling the most with, and I would love it if I could get some help.

Edge Hogging - This just pisses me off. I know you're supposed to Wavedash towards a ledge to just hang off the side, but this doesn't seem to work a hundred percent of the time. Sometimes my guys gets to edge and does his little tipping over animation, other times I balls up because I still need to work on my Waveedashing. It's just really confusing, and it frustrates the hell out of me every time I **** up and end up air dodging right by the ledge and just falling to my death. How does this thing work?

Wavedashing - To be honest, I think I just need to practice this. I do like 3 or 4 right, than I mess up for a bit, then another 3 or 4. It's just annoying because sometimes I don't understand why I'm not doing the Wavedash. Nothing changes from how TI was comboing earlier when it was working, or at least, nothing that I notice. In don't know. Maybe I should try starting out wavedashing on someone that has an easier wavedash than Marth? Any suggestions?

Short Hopping - This is just weird. I read somewhere in a thread that you can do it by running your thumbnail over the bottom part of the X-button quickly, and it seems to work. It's just so inconsistent. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, and I'm pretty sure that's just because it's pretty damn hard to shorthop into a Dair, or just shorthop in general with this setup. I'm just not used to moving my hand like that and than going straight to A or shield or whatever. Is this the right way to do it and do I need to just change my ways to get accustomed to it? Or maybe there is a better way that I'm just not getting. I had a general strategy in mind before I got the game, where I would basically just SHFFL Nairs all day long until the enemy got bored and came to me, and than I'd be able to punish accordingly with my massive range and combo potential, but if Shorthopping is going to be this hard, even that simple strategy might be too much.

L-Cancelling - Alright, well I think my problems with L-Cancelling are stemming from my problems with Shorthopping. Does the aerial need to be out of a shorthop to L-cancel it effectively? Are certain aerials affected different? When exactly do I need to press L? On Marth when I do a Dair, I can L-cancel pretty much perfectly. Yet when I do it to a Bair or Fair I end up airdodging half the time, the other half I get a shield once I hit. Is this a successful L-cancel? I can't tell. It's just some really confusing ****. Also, a question about L-cancelling in general. Do you only L-cancel aerials? Or can you L-cancel anything, like lets say you get Uaired by a Fox and you land on a platform. You can L-cancel that lag right? So you're up instantly? I'm pretty sure you can but I'm not sure.

Halp please.

@ AirFair You're the Marth expert. Assist your fellow Marth main!

Any tips welcome for any of the things listed above. Map or character recommendations to practice the moves with, around what time should I expect to fully master the skill, and how hard it really is. Whatever you feel is pertinent to the thread basically.

 

[ItsChon]

Oh and @ Spak

Cause I also know you.

 

[Massive]

Edge Hogging: You don't need to wavedash to edgehog, you just need to take the ledge. You can jump and take it, or pc walk and take it or whatever you want. Marth's bair, for example turns him around, so you can jump towards the side, bair, and then grab the ledge on your way down, just as an example. A lot of players don't use wavedash to edge hog at all, especially considering how bad some character's wavedashes are.

Wavedashing: Like a lot of muscle memory things, wavedashing is best learned by starting slow and getting faster as you get more proficient. You actually start this more easily by practicing wavelanding. This will help you to understand what angles you need to use for various distances and as well as about what height you need to be at to wavedash correctly. Once you understand how angles work to waveland well enough, wavedashing just becomes a matter of timing.

Short Hopping: You are over-thinking it. Marth's short hop isn't terribly difficult timing wise, just hit your preferred jump button quickly. A tap is all that is necessary. Practicing on a character with tight short hop timing like Fox will make it easier to do on Marth. You might just need to practice this one a bit, but remember, you're tapping the button, not pressing it.

L-Cancelling: L-cancelling has nothing to do with what jump you're using or even what situation you're in the air from, you can only L-cancel normal (a, z, or c-stick) aerials and only when you're hitting the ground with them. You can't L-cancel a move in the air. L-cancel timing is different when you hit your opponent vs. when you hit their shield. You have 7 frames before you land in which to hit L, R, or Z. You do not need to press the trigger all the way down to L-cancel, about 1/3 of the way is enough. The easiest way to practice this is through repetition. You can practice it by empty hopping and L-cancelling, but practice against shields can be done against people or using the 20XX pack/other AR codes. There is also an AR code (and in the 20XX pack) that makes your character flash on L-cancel that makes it visually clear when you did it successfully.

 

[AirFair]

I wouldn't say I am an expert, but I have some input on your issue

Edgehogging with a wavedash is pretty simple, as long is you keep your distance. When I say this, I mean that you shouldn't try and wd onto the edge, when you are standing right on top of it (pretty much an SD tbh). Make sure you are facing away from the ledge. Ex. If I wanted to edgehog the LEFT edge of FD, then I would face to the RIGHT and wd back. Sorry I don't have any images or gifs. I searched. Basically Wavedash back, not to far (no edgehog) and not to close (slide off and or SD)

Edgehogging with Marth is Bairly simple (c wat i ded ther).
Basically you can jump and bair, and it will turn you around. You can run towards the ledge, and jump and bair (short hop or not) and it can turn you around so you will fly over the stage then grab the ledge. This video is in my guide thread (Check it out on the Marth boards!), and that segment shows you what I'm talking about
http://youtu.be/_IACW5mltqY?t=6m47s

Wavedashing is just a practice thing. That's all I can say. I use y if it helps.

L canclling is done right before you hit the ground with any aerial, interrupting it and cutting landing lag in half. With practice you will understand that too. I didn't for awhile myself.

PT: PLEASE PLEASE try and do a light press to L cancel if you are going to practice. Light presses are better because if you do a hard press (full click down on the L/R button), and you get knocked down right after L cancelling, then you can't tech. If you light press for L cancels, you can avoid that and be ready to tech.

Good luck with all of your training. After half a year playing, I can safely say that I understand all of this, so I get where you are coming from. It's worth it when you finally get it. Keep trying

EDIT: lol thanks @ Massive for stealing my thunder and posting while I was tryping

 

[ItsChon]

Edge Hogging - Alright I think I've just about got it now. Holy crap, I can't believe your tips fixed my problem in minutes. Now I just need to be able to do it quickly.

Wavedashing/landing - Practice, got ya.

L-Cancelling - Not going to lie, this still confuses me. I would get 20xx but for two reasons, one, it's 20xx and ain't nobody like that bull****; and two, I can only get Melee on my GameCube. I'll keep practicing and try to fight the urge to smash down hard on the L/R key.

One last question. C-Sticking. How does it exactly work/what is it, and is it necessary?

 

[AirFair]

C sticking smashes is good if you want to do the smash attack quickly without charging it.

C sticking aerials is good too. It's necessary for fast combos. I use stick for everything except nair obviously and for some aerials when I combo, like in the short hop double fair, or in the Ken combo.

C stick also helps with some kinds of DI but I'm not very good at it yet so someone more experienced could elaborate.

Another thing you can use the c stick for is buffering rolls and spotdodges. If you are shielding and use use the c stick like a control stick to roll it spotdodge, then you will do it on the first possible frame. It's good for shield pressure.

I typed this on my phone and am going to sleeo now lol

 

[Spak]

AirFair and Massive both covered a majority of the material, but I just wanted to say that shorthopping is achieved by releasing before the end of jumpsquat, so the timing is extremely tight and just needs to be practiced until it is consistent (jumpsquat is 3 frames with Fox, 4 frames with Marth.) Also, you might also want to practice jump sweetspotting to refresh ledge invincibility. One last thing is that if you ever switch to Falcon, using C-stick is vital for retreating knees, instant Uairs, and maintaining complete areal control while comboing.

P.S. Sorry for the late reply, but I'm on the East Coast, so it was about 1 in the morning when I got this.

 

[AirFair]

The way I shorthop is by flicking my thumb over x, so I quickly press it barely.

lol central time here, so that would have been 2 am for me

 

[ItsChon]

Alright, so I got Luigi and wavedashing is becoming a lot easier to understand now. I can now basically do it 90% of the time in training mode, I just need to get better at applying it in the actual match, and doing it under pressure. As for short hopping, I'm at around 50% of the time in training mode. I need to still put in a lot of work. Haven't really gotten to L-cancelling yet. Oh, and Edge hogging is a breeze now. I just need to get better at reads and when I need to stay on the ledge and when I need to edgegaurd.

Couple questions.

1. When Edgevgaurding, should I use Fsmash or my Special move? I don't see much of a difference in them, so explanations on when to use what and what's more useful are appreciated.

2. Why/When do we actually use wavedashing? I know that we move faster than when we dash once we master it, but what are its actual uses? Do we use it to approach, to back up and dodge attacks before following up with one of our own. Just, some elaboration on what I should be trying to do with/out of a wavedash and why it's so essential.

3. When should I be using my full jump as opposed to a shorthop?

4. This question is towards @ AirFair So you said you've been practicing for half a year. I watched your full trial video, and I'd like to know. You'd be considered a good player in the competitve scene, right? Like slightly above average? I'm asking because some of the stuff in that video seems freaking ridiculous, and if you're still considered below average while knowing all that, well....

Edit: Just thought of a few more.

5. When I short hop neutral air on a Marth and than proceed to L-cancel, sometimes the neutral air animation is cut short. Does that mean the attack doesn't go all the way behind me, or is the hitbox still extending out that far despite the shortened animation?

6. Can you use the C-stick to do a Pivot Fsmash on Marth?

 

[Spak]

Couple questions.

1. When Edgevgaurding, should I use Fsmash or my Special move? I don't see much of a difference in them, so explanations on when to use what and what's more useful are appreciated.

2. Why/When do we actually use wavedashing? I know that we move faster than when we dash once we master it, but what are its actual uses? Do we use it to approach, to back up and dodge attacks before following up with one of our own. Just, some elaboration on what I should be trying to do with/out of a wavedash and why it's so essential.

3. When should I be using my full jump as opposed to a shorthop?

4. This question is towards @ AirFair So you said you've been practicing for half a year. I watched your full trial video, and I'd like to know. You'd be considered a good player in the competitve scene, right? Like slightly above average? I'm asking because some of the stuff in that video seems freaking ridiculous, and if you're still considered below average while knowing all that, well....

Edit: Just thought of a few more.

5. When I short hop neutral air on a Marth and than proceed to L-cancel, sometimes the neutral air animation is cut short. Does that mean the attack doesn't go all the way behind me, or is the hitbox still extending out that far despite the shortened animation?

6. Can you use the C-stick to do a Pivot Fsmash on Marth?

1. Not a Marth main, I'll leave this to AirFair

2. Wavedashing is used for spacing, mobility, edgeguarding, and mindgames. You can space yourself from your opponent quickly and come to an appropriate distance to have a good punish. You can waveland onto an edge of a platform to give a significant boost to your momentum and help movement, you can do things like wavesurfing for a really long horizontal distance covered in a short amount of time with you opponent not seeing it coming, and a bunch of various other stuff. It's very useful.

3. Very situational. It depends on your opponent's position, your position, their possible options, that person's tendencies, what character you are playing as, what character your opponent is playing as, etc. My answer would be that you eventually get a feel as to when to use what that comes from experience and the person's personal playstyle.

4. Not directed towards me.

5. Basically, the hitbox and animation are both cancelled the same frame you hit the ground, so that means the hitbox is not extending past the point his sword does. Also, if you SH Nair and the sword doesn't go back until you hit the ground, that either means you are fastfalling too early or Nair-ing too late.

6. Yes. Yes, you can.

 

[Chex~]

I've been maining Luigi for awhile now, and it's really helped me wavedash correctly and effectively. I just practice a lot.

 

[ssknight7]

I used to have an issue as Marth WD to edgehog. For some reason it seemed like on the left side of FD if I was facing right and WD backward, I would just go too far off the left side and would not reliably/consistently grab the edge.

I recently realized this is where fast falling comes into play. You would think that if you're in a situation where WDing back is going to take you too far, FFing it would just make you SD quicker. This isn't the case. If you WD backward in a situation where you would ordinarily WD too far and SD, FFing straight down just as you leave the ledge narrows your angle of descent and you are just close enough to the edge to grab onto it.

Basically what I'm saying is you need to time your FF properly to make sure you grab the edge and don't just slide off into the abyss.

 

[ItsChon]

What's better? Wavedashing with Y or X? What are the benefits of cons of using either?

 

[Spak]

Honestly, I just use whichever button I usually jump with, so I always use Y. I'd say it's just whatever feels more comfortable.

 

[Teran]

What's better? Wavedashing with Y or X? What are the benefits of cons of using either?

They're both exactly the same. The only difference between X and Y is in multishining.

If you're super anal they have slightly different angles with regards to the cstick, but really who cares.

 

[ItsChon]

What are some of the uses of Marth's special move? Does it have any uses at all?

 

[Spak]

What are some of the uses of Marth's special move? Does it have any uses at all?

Breaking shields and I guess hard reads... Haven't ever seen it used for much else... Also, I've seen it used off-stage about once or twice in my lifetime as a viable edgeguard option, but it is decently hard to land reliably and if it doesn't hit or you release B too late, it puts you in a bad situation and the other person could then edgeguard you or you could possibly SD.

 

[ItsChon]

....

Alright, and this is a Falcon question. Can you Short hop Falcon's side B or Falcon Kick?

 

[Teran]

Alright, and this is a Falcon question. Can you Short hop Falcon's side B or Falcon Kick?

Technically yes, but both are useless. Just try it out ingame to see why lol.

 

[Spak]

Alright, and this is a Falcon question. Can you Short hop Falcon's side B or Falcon Kick?

You can Short Hop and then do any move you could normally do in the air. Short Hopping Raptor Boost would be unnecessary and hits them into the ground, so you couldn't actually combo out of it and they would be able to punish you just from the landing lag. Short hopping Falcon Kick would not be smart at all as you would just kick into the ground and get the 45 frames of landing lag.

EDIT: Darn it. Teran stole my thunder.

 

[ItsChon]

You can Short Hop and then do any move you could normally do in the air. Short Hopping Raptor Boost would be unnecessary and hits them into the ground, so you couldn't actually combo out of it and they would be able to punish you just from the landing lag. Short hopping Falcon Kick would not be smart at all as you would just kick into the ground and get the 45 frames of landing lag.

EDIT: Darn it. Teran stole my thunder.

So you're best bet would be to wavedash back from the Raptor Boost/Kick and just Fsmash?

Edit: Also, is rolling bad or good? Should it be avoided?

 

[Spak]

So you're best bet would be to wavedash back from the Raptor Boost/Kick and just Fsmash?

Edit: Also, is rolling bad or good? Should it be avoided?

I would say that if they are doing as Short Hop Falcon Kick, you could just walk up and tipper because they will be stuck on the ground for a good little bit. If they are doing a Short Hop Raptor Boost, you could just shieldgrab them. Or you could have mercy because while I guess an extremely low raptor boost could be cancelled on the ground (whenever he starts to lower his fist at the end of the animation) and used as a tricky approach, if they are trying to use a Short Hop Falcon Kick in a serious match, they might not know how to use Falcon.

Rolling isn't bad, but abuse of rolling is. There is a time and place to roll, but Rolling should be used sparingly as it can be fairly easily read and punished. Wavedashing is much quicker allowing for more fluid and quick movement, but rolling gives invincibility frames and generally covers a longer distance. Both have their uses, but speaking from experience, it is tricky to know when to roll and when not to roll after using rolling as movement for many years.

 

[ItsChon]

I would say that if they are doing as Short Hop Falcon Kick, you could just walk up and tipper because they will be stuck on the ground for a good little bit. If they are doing a Short Hop Raptor Boost, you could just shieldgrab them. Or you could have mercy because while I guess an extremely low raptor boost could be cancelled on the ground (whenever he starts to lower his fist at the end of the animation) and used as a tricky approach, if they are trying to use a Short Hop Falcon Kick in a serious match, they might not know how to use Falcon.

Rolling isn't bad, but abuse of rolling is. There is a time and place to roll, but Rolling should be used sparingly as it can be fairly easily read and punished. Wavedashing is much quicker allowing for more fluid and quick movement, but rolling gives invincibility frames and generally covers a longer distance. Both have their uses, but speaking from experience, it is tricky to know when to roll and when not to roll after using rolling as movement for many years.

Alright, and I just realized that maybe you read my other question wrong. I mean, if a Falcon is coming at you with a Falcon Kick/Raptor boost. Can you short hop over it as Marth?

 

[Spak]

Alright, and I just realized that maybe you read my other question wrong. I mean, if a Falcon is coming at you with a Falcon Kick/Raptor boost. Can you short hop over it as Marth?

Oh, I'm not 100% sure about that. The detection for when Falcon starts to uppercut with Raptor Boost is a bit funky so I'm pretty confident that you could time it so that a Short Hop over Falcon would work if you were going the opposite direction of him, but your best bet with Raptor Boost is still shielding. I think you would get hit by the Falcon Kick if you tried to Short Hop over it, though. You could Full Jump or shield when they falcon kick and land a quick areal/grab/whatever blue-haired princes do before the endlag is finished.

 

[ItsChon]

Oh, I'm not 100% sure about that. The detection for when Falcon starts to uppercut with Raptor Boost is a bit funky so I'm pretty confident that you could time it so that a Short Hop over Falcon would work if you were going the opposite direction of him, but your best bet with Raptor Boost is still shielding. I think you would get hit by the Falcon Kick if you tried to Short Hop over it, though. You could Full Jump or shield when they falcon kick and land a quick areal/grab/whatever blue-haired princes do before the endlag is finished.

Alright. Also, how hard is the Falcon Marth MU? I've heard conflicting reports.

 

[Spak]

Alright. Also, how hard is the Falcon Marth MU? I've heard conflicting reports.

A majority of Falcons think it is in Marth's favor and every Marth and his best friend think it is in Falcon's favor. I think it is in Marth's favor because of the length of his sword (the jab is longer than a vast majority of Falcon's moves), the disjointed hitboxes that tend to come with the sword, and the distance at which Marth can keep Falcon. The only thing in Falcon's favor is his fast movement to punish a poorly-placed tipper and the fact that Marth is easily comboed by Falcon. All in all, it's still decently even. I'm not an expert on MUs, but those are just my 2 cents.

 

[ItsChon]

What are some uses for Dash Dancing?

 

[Spak]

What are some uses for Dash Dancing?

Dash Dancing allows someone to leave their spot at full dashing speed, to increase options, to evade attacks, and for some other advanced tech like Wavesurfing. Advantages of leaving their spot at the speed of a full dash I think is self-explanatory. When you are dashdancing, you can escape to either side quickly by either simply dashing out of the way to the left or right and then dashing back to them in order to punish while they are stuck in endlag or wavedashing out of dashdancing (Wavesurfing is alternating a DD and a WD) and come back in for the punish or take center stage. Dashdancing is also good because your opponent isn't sure what you could do next as it greatly broadens your options. I'm going to bed now so that I can be up at 5:30 for school tomorrow. Good night.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that you also return to your Neutral state for 1 frame before turning the opposite direction, so you can use the C-stick and hope you get the right frame for a smash attack. Anyways, good night!

 

[ItsChon]

For the life of me I can't figure out how to Waveland. Any tips?

Edit: Oh and here's another couple of questions.

Okay, so I had a small idea. I wanted to get better at wavedashing and rolling and using them for spacing. So I went into Vs. and put a level 7 Falcon and I started just wave dashing away from his attacks and only attacking when I knew I had a tipper. Trying to shield some of his stuff, etc. First thing, I want to know if this is a good idea and if this is sort of accurate to how it would be in a match with a human person.

Second. I got pretty good at it with Falcon so I decided I would switch to Fox. However, I ran into a bit of a problem. He just kept on Side B-ing me and it seems to me like my shield doesn't do anything to it. Explanations?

 

[Twinkles]

wavedashing is just jumping and airdodging into the ground fast enough that you slide on the ground without leaving it

wavelanding is just airdodging into the ground as you are in the air about to land

 

[ItsChon]

wavedashing is just jumping and airdodging into the ground fast enough that you slide on the ground without leaving it

wavelanding is just airdodging into the ground as you are in the air about to land

Is your avatar Samurai Champloo?

 

[Twinkles]

yeah it is

 

[Massive]

Alright, and I just realized that maybe you read my other question wrong. I mean, if a Falcon is coming at you with a Falcon Kick/Raptor boost. Can you short hop over it as Marth?

If a falcon is coming at you with a falcon kick/raptor boost and you are not being tech chased, you just shield and punish.
You can grab/generic punish him out of either very easily.

But for Marth, a grab is the very best thing you can get to start a punish.

Second. I got pretty good at it with Falcon so I decided I would switch to Fox. However, I ran into a bit of a problem. He just kept on Side B-ing me and it seems to me like my shield doesn't do anything to it. Explanations?

The CPU is shieldpoking you, most likely.

The shield gives a false impression of a perfect defense, but as I'm sure you're aware it shrinks over time. As your shield gets smaller it provides less coverage of your hitboxes, but even at maximum strength a fully pressed shield won't cover completely for very long (if at all). If someone connects with part of your character that is not covered by the shield, you will get hit out of your shield (aka shieldpoked). To combat this people will occasionally change their shield strength with the trigger or tilt their shields with the analog stick.

 

[ItsChon]

If a falcon is coming at you with a falcon kick/raptor boost and you are not being tech chased, you just shield and punish.
You can grab/generic punish him out of either very easily.

But for Marth, a grab is the very best thing you can get to start a punish.


The CPU is shieldpoking you, most likely.

The shield gives a false impression of a perfect defense, but as I'm sure you're aware it shrinks over time. As your shield gets smaller it provides less coverage of your hitboxes, but even at maximum strength a fully pressed shield won't cover completely for very long (if at all). If someone connects with part of your character that is not covered by the shield, you will get hit out of your shield (aka shieldpoked). To combat this people will occasionally change their shield strength with the trigger or tilt their shields with the analog stick.

Alright, just want to make sure.

Up to what percentage can you chaingrab with Marth without having to do an uptilt to lead into another grab?

As for Shield poking. So I just press either the L or R trigger and tilt my analong stick a little bit forward/backward/upwards?

 

[Spak]

Alright, just want to make sure.

Up to what percentage can you chaingrab with Marth without having to do an uptilt to lead into another grab?

As for Shield poking. So I just press either the L or R trigger and tilt my analong stick a little bit forward/backward/upwards?

Yup, that is how you angle your shield. Also, another thing he was talking about was lightshielding. The way you do that is partially pushing down the L or R buttons so that your shield will get bigger and degrade more slowly instead of fullpressing the L/R buttons. In addition to that, you can Wavedash OOS decently easily with just jumping and fullpressing rather than having to push another trigger all the way down.

P.S. Light shielding doesn't exist in Brawl or Smash 4. Also, if you are light shielding on top of the ledge while facing away from the ledge and Shield DI-ing back when Marth sweetspots his Dolphin Slash, it is called the "Marth Killer" because you can drop off of the ledge and grab it before Marth does.

Example:

Happens around 1:40

EDIT: Sorry for the poor video quality; it's what I could remember watching when I was learning about Marth Killer and the vid is 8 years old.

 

[ItsChon]

Yup, that is how you angle your shield. Also, another thing he was talking about was lightshielding. The way you do that is partially pushing down the L or R buttons so that your shield will get bigger and degrade more slowly instead of fullpressing the L/R buttons. In addition to that, you can Wavedash OOS decently easily with just jumping and fullpressing rather than having to push another trigger all the way down.

P.S. Light shielding doesn't exist in Brawl or Smash 4. Also, if you are light shielding on top of the ledge while facing away from the ledge and Shield DI-ing back when Marth sweetspots his Dolphin Slash, it is called the "Marth Killer" because you can drop off of the ledge and grab it before Marth does.

Example:

Happens around 1:40

EDIT: Sorry for the poor video quality; it's what I could remember watching when I was learning about Marth Killer and the vid is 8 years old.

Holy crap it works. Will definitely use. Now I just need to get better with angling on instinct and shieldgrabbing at the right time.

 

[Massive]

Up to what percentage can you chaingrab with Marth without having to do an uptilt to lead into another grab?

To answer your question, you can chain uthrow spaces to about 22% before you have to start pivot grabbing and they can shine/jump/DI out.
However, I highly recommend newer players avoid trying to uthrow chaingrab with marth.
It does very little damage (less than uthrow > utilt >utilt most of the time) and doesn't really teach you anything other than a gimmick or improve your punish game at all.

Uthrow > utilt is very easy and very effective, you can regrab after and you'll actually end up with more damage than uthrow chaining, faster. You can also uthrow > utilt > fsmash or just uthrow > fsmash at higher %s. I am not saying uthrow chains are bad (because they aren't), but they are basically only useful on FD where there are no platforms to escape, and getting to reliant on them means your strategy can be foiled by just banning FD (which they will do against marth anyway).

 

[Cedricwa]

I'm sorry to interrupt this thread, but like why is grab Z instead of R, and when you guys do aerials, do you use A or Z

 

[Spak]

but like why is grab Z instead of R

Because the developers made the game like that, but I would guess their reason is because R is an analog button and Z is digital.

and when you guys do aerials, do you use A or Z

A. If nothing else, I just use A out of habit.

 

[Heavy Gomez]

I'm sorry to interrupt this thread, but like why is grab Z instead of R, and when you guys do aerials, do you use A or Z

R needs to be shield because you can't light/hard press Z

also I use either a for nair or the c stick for the other aerials