Edge Hogging completely destroys tether recovery characters*EDITED*

[Losnar]

Wow i gotta say that really makes me question if i should main poke trainer. And lucas being my back up also makes me question him too but i guess he has pk thunder.

Wouldn't worry about poke trainer. Squirtle and Charizard are better anyways, it seems.

Lucas's PK recovery is better too.

 

[joepinion]

Lucas has a third jump anyway, Link and Samus and ZSS have a third jump anyway. Pokemon Trainer will require extra strategy to avoid that kind of situation with Ivysaur... it seems like this is most concerning for Olimar.

If he really can't target the sweet spot whenever anyone's hanging for any amount of time, then what if he just sweet spots it himself by shooting straight up from just the right spot? Can he grab it that way?

EDIT: In the video, all three times, Marth is timing the edge-hogging frames to be just right when Ivysauar recovers... So if Olimar can still target the ledge when the edgehogging frame is not happening.... then this is kind of a duh weakness. Most characters have situations like this they need to avoid.

In that video, for the second kill, which was the best example of this strategy, it's the PT's fault for wasting his second jump. Shouldn't be too much of an issue between skilled players. Sure, sometimes you will get killed early in a life, but that happens sometimes to everyone, especially in tournaments

 

[SuperLink9]

Whether or not Ivysaur and Olimar are very good in regular play, once they're attempting to recover, they could be as good as gone. It's still a huge handicap.

 

[Xanderous]

My friend just sent me a link to a video that shows exactly what I'm talking about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8hoWZlXK_gg

I'll add it to the main topic.

Ivysaur dies everytime the same way. But unlike me and my friends that Marth doesn't purposely try to barely knock the tether'er out of the field everytime and hit him once or twice then edgehog for the easy kill.

Actually, even if he hadn't been on the ledge those times, Ivysaur wouldn't have grabbed it. He was 1) too far away and 2) well above it.

Yesterday, I played Ivysaur v. Olimar. When I ledgehogged, Olimar's pikmin simply hit me out of the way and he grabbed the ledge. I think maybe you're misinformed, but I'll do some more testing and get back to you.

 

[Blue sHell]

Actually, even if he hadn't been on the ledge those times, Ivysaur wouldn't have grabbed it. He was 1) too far away and 2) well above it.

Yesterday, I played Ivysaur v. Olimar. When I ledgehogged, Olimar's pikmin simply hit me out of the way and he grabbed the ledge. I think maybe you're misinformed, but I'll do some more testing and get back to you.

Lol, no really I'm not. Try it for every angle you want as Olimar. If someone is on the edge no matter how long they've been on it, he will NOT sweetspot it.

Misinformed, no. Believe me when I say we've tested this quite a bit.

Lucas has a third jump anyway, Link and Samus and ZSS have a third jump anyway. Pokemon Trainer will require extra strategy to avoid that kind of situation with Ivysaur... it seems like this is most concerning for Olimar.

If he really can't target the sweet spot whenever anyone's hanging for any amount of time, then what if he just sweet spots it himself by shooting straight up from just the right spot? Can he grab it that way?

EDIT: In the video, all three times, Marth is timing the edge-hogging frames to be just right when Ivysauar recovers... So if Olimar can still target the ledge when the edgehogging frame is not happening.... then this is kind of a duh weakness. Most characters have situations like this they need to avoid.

In that video, for the second kill, which was the best example of this strategy, it's the PT's fault for wasting his second jump. Shouldn't be too much of an issue between skilled players. Sure, sometimes you will get killed early in a life, but that happens sometimes to everyone, especially in tournaments

It doesn't matter how long you've hanged on. If someone is on the ledge, regardless of invicibility frames, the UpB wont sweetspot.

 

[SuperLink9]

This could be an error. Like some of the more obvious Melee glitches, may be fixed in the localised releases, and later versions of the Japanese release, so that your tether goes through the enemy and grabs onto the ledge, knocking the enemy off.

Doubt it though.

 

[Anomilus]

I'm assuming by the fact that nobody is mentioning it that you're not allowed to switch pokemon while their in mid-air? Otherwise you could switch out Ivysaur with Charizard and use his recovery....

 

[Xenesis]

^That is correct. You have to be on the ground to switch pokemon.

 

[joepinion]

Ok, thanks for making that clear, that the tether won't target whenever someone's hanging on the edge, not just when hogging.

How about if you just position yourself under the ledge so that even though it doesn't auto-target sweetspot, it hits the sweetspot anyway? Will it grab then? From what you have said, I would guess "no" but I'd like to hear that you've tested that.

As bad as it seems, it doesn't handicap Olimar beyond usability, ESPECIALLY with the more floaty physics. And like I said before, it's totally Ivysauar's fault on that second kill for wasting a second jump like that.

 

[Blue sHell]

How about if you just position yourself under the ledge so that even though it doesn't auto-target sweetspot, it hits the sweetspot anyway? Will it grab then? From what you have said, I would guess "no" but I'd like to hear that you've tested that.

I'll test this today when I get out of work.(or if someone else can they're welcome)

 

[WeltallZero]

I tried this with Ivysaur: he didn't grab the edge, but hit the edgehogging character. As nobody was using the 2P controller, both plummeted to their dooms.

 

[papermarkis]

Sakurai talked about how he watched Melee tournament vids yet he completely over sights something like this?

 

[A New Challenger]

Just tried the above. No dice. Tether hits the opponent, who stays hanging, and Olimar falls to his dooooom.

 

[cyber_turnip]

Could this potentially be fixed with a patch?

 

[SuperLink9]

Sakurai has nerfed characters who didn't need to be nerfed. Sakurai hasn't decloned the most requested character to be decloned. Sakurai pays no attention to the Smash Community, Sakurai will be in the dark about this for the rest of eternity, there will be no patch.

 

[jwj442]

Isn't it possible that this is an intentional weakness on the part of Olimar, rather than an oversight? And could he perhaps attack the edgehogger? And with stronger DI, it looks like you can recover over the edge pretty often.

 

[Blue sHell]

The most annoying part of all this is that the person most effected is Olimar, and yet Olimar was said by the developers to "DURF SHOULD BE USED BY ADVANCED PLAYERS". Come on now Sakurai. If you're going to gear a character in another direction for advanced players at least don't give them a blaring weakness. Now he'll be a seldomly used char in tourny play, its sad.

Isn't it possible that this is an intentional weakness on the part of Olimar, rather than an oversight? And could he perhaps attack the edgehogger?

Doubt it was intentional if ALL tether recovery characters suffer.

When I play today I'm going to try to see if throwing a pikmin at the edgehogger is a good idea. Technically the pikmin would latch on and do constant dmg so it'd be impossible for the edgehogger to stay on without brushing the pikmin off first. BUT I don't know if:
A. The pikmin will latch on to someone hanging
B. If the pikmin would knock him off the ledge
C. If throwing the pikmin still doesn't give you the time to recover.
D. ect.

I get out of work at 1pm est, I'll test it then.

 

[Chris with Lime]

Yeeesh. I'm really not someone who complains about little things, but, if true, this seems to be a massive failure on the part of the developers. I can't imagien that playtesters would not discover something like this. Even for games like FF1, I believe, the games endured very extensive playtesting. For a game intended to not only be competitive (in the sense of multiple players competing for victory, not necessarily tournament-level play) but played with strangers online, failing to fix this is, in a word, inexcusable.

I'm fine with the supposedly increased endurance, easy recovery, slower game speed, and other supposed essential, newbie-friendly changes from Melee to Brawl I've been hearing about. But when a mechanic, specifically the homing tether dealy is introduced to make something, tether recovery, easier, but ends up providing an easy, uncircumventable method of preventing that something, someone seriously dropped the ball. By trying to make the game more newbie-friendly, the developers instead ruin a fun mechanic for everyone. That, more than any other problem with the game of which I've heard, is an epic fail.

At least I haven't given up hope that either a workaround will be discovered or the problem will be fixed in subsequent versions of the game. Olimar was one of, if not the most exciting new characters, and I must avoid the abyss of despair until this is confirmed beyond any doubt.

 

[ph00tbag]

Don't get too excited about all of this. First of all, it's so hard to get to Olimar in 1v1 that getting him off the stage is a whole lot of work in itself. Furthermore, it's not just a matter of jumping on the edge. Olimar can throw a Pikmin or two (he should save up a purple one) to open the ledge up. So he's not easy to gimp

Zamus, too has many options. Flip Jump gives a lot of height, and if properly timed, can knock people off the edge. Furthermore, if you are above the ledge, Plasma Wire gives you a little bit of an upwards boost, and I think if someone's grabbing the ledge you can do this as well.

I dunno about Ivysaur, though.

I spent last night playing Brawl, and we've got a good Olimar player in our midst. The strategies I'm talking about work frequently for him, and the Zamus strategies worked for me, because she's my main.

 

[jwj442]

Well, there are characters in Melee with dreadful recovery who are still good (and characters with good recovery who still suck). The Montage crew aware of the tether problems, and they still rated Ivysaur and Olimar well. Ivysaur and Olimar are the only ones without other recovery options, too.

 

[Terrabottuti]

Oh dear, this is slightly distressing news. This is probably going to kill off a couple of characters since ANYONE can figure out how to edge-hog as soon as they know the concept of it, it's not like a super-advanced technique where you need precise skills and reflexes... it's just grabbing onto a ledge at the right time. Brawl actually makes this a lot easier, from what I've been hearing... so seems like quite an error on the developer's part.

I'm glad that my little buddy Lucas is mutliple-choice when it comes to recovery, it will still make him pretty viable as a character, since I can just PK Thunder when the situation calls for it. I just hope other alternate strategies can pop up for the tether-only characters as well, since I wouldn't want them to be destroyed for something as simple as this. I hear Olimar is quite a sturdy character anyway, but can the same be said for the others?

I suppose we'll just have to give it time... I can easily imagine plenty of people are going to want to see if there's any way to counter this little problem!

 

[Bamboozle]

Besides Olimar and Ivysaur, this shouldn't effect any other characters means of revovering with a tether. Link has his Spinning attack, samus has.. im sure a form of recovery other than tethering.

Even at that, Olimars tether with max pikmen is pretty **** huge, im sure a good olimar user could sacrifice a few pikmen to throw at the cheapo ledge guarder to knock them off and tether back up.

Ivysaur would be a little harder, not sure on that maybe bulletseed or razorleaf the person and tether back. Doesn't he have another form of recovering? even as little as it may be.

 

[Hydde]

Test if you can directionally throw the tethers!. Ok maybe a dumb suggestion but try to redirect it in the same way we redirect zelda´s and mewtwo recoveries.... maybe in this way we will be able t redirect it forward and grab the stage.

Also.. i saw in a video that Ice climbers recovery is now autosweespotted too... they will also suffer form this?

 

[OrlanduEX]

Test if you can directionally throw the tethers!. Ok maybe a dumb suggestion but try to redirect it in the same way we redirect zelda´s and mewtwo recoveries.... maybe in this way we will be able t redirect it forward and grab the stage.

Also.. i saw in a video that Ice climbers recovery is now autosweespotted too... they will also suffer form this?

You can't aim tether recoveries. It always goes straight for the edge, unless someone's hanging there in which case you're screwed.

 

[Shaolin-Ninja]

This sucks... For Ivysaur, can you change to Charizard for recovering instead?

 

[Hydde]

then this sucks... a lot...

 

[Blue sHell]

This sucks... For Ivysaur, can you change to Charizard for recovering instead?

Can't change midair.

 

[DeadtoSin]

Well, I've seen some pretty crazy stuff regarding recovery and techniques from you guys in the few days I've been here. I'm confident one of the creative ivysaur/olimar players on this board could come up with something.

Who knows, maybe it isn't quite as gamebreaking as we are imagining?

 

[pictish freak]

Playing pure theory-smash, I have to say that despite concerns Ivysaur is probably the least effected by this, since he's the only one that doesn't have to fight at high %.

I understand this works at any percent, but I have to ask - if you back throw olimar or ivysaur, can they not use your cooldown time to very quickly tether the edge? While this would have big implications about dying at high damage, it'd mean at low health you could snap the edge before the opponent edgehogs it, meaning you simply have to tether quickly and don't have the luxury of waiting.

In the case of Ivysaur, I can imagine this forcing a switch to charizard at high damage. This seems minor given Red's playstyle focuses on swapping it up anyhow - no? As for Olimar, if it's possible to tether very quickly at low percents, this would simply mean he has problems recovering at high damage. Either way, I wonder if it would be possible to launch a projectile to clear the ledge if your aiming is proficient (especially olimar who can hardly spare the pikmin). If, like has been established, the edge hogger can sit there vulnerable, this would force them to ledge hop to try and stay invulnerable, creating an opening for tethering.

That said, this is purely hypothetical since I've not had the pleasure of playing Brawl yet. This is just a few ideas to throw out there, perhaps worth testing. I'm interested in how this plays out.

 

[ph00tbag]

I understand this works at any percent, but I have to ask - if you back throw olimar or ivysaur, can they not use your cooldown time to very quickly tether the edge? While this would have big implications about dying at high damage, it'd mean at low health you could snap the edge before the opponent edgehogs it, meaning you simply have to tether quickly and don't have the luxury of waiting.

Only if they get below the ledge beforehand. Tether recoveries, from what I can tell, don't snap to the edge unless you are below it.

 

[Pkm_trainer09]

Well, at least Ivysaur has 2 other companions...
But that still sucks so much.

 

[juddapudda]

these are the most pessimistic boards i have ever been on.

 

[pictish freak]

Only if they get below the ledge beforehand. Tether recoveries, from what I can tell, don't snap to the edge unless you are below it.

Ah, really? I coulda sworn I saw someone tether from above but I must be remembering incorrectly. That's unfortunate - perhaps at low damage they'd need to DI down and couple that with a fast fall. I should probably cut out the speculation and leave this to someone how can actually test ideas though.

 

[JakedRooster]

I bet 3/5 people in this thread haven't even played brawl yet.

Olimar can whistle a purple pikmen to the front line and throw it at the edgehogger, and then immediately tether when they're in hit-stun. Appearently Olimar's recovery has different properties based on the one he is holding during his upB as well. People are testing this in the Olimar thread. I can also confirm that one of (or all of?) the pikmen will spike when you hit your opponent with upB.

That was pretty wordy. In a nutshell:

Whistle purple to front line, get close to edgehogger, throw purple pikmen and immediately upB. It will either get you back on, or spike your opponent.

Olimar also gets a little L-dodge-style melee boost from his upB. Please test stuff yourself and only post relevant information before living your life in fear. Olimar is fine ATM.

 

[Mediator]

that sucks >_<

so im guessing you cant hit anybody hanging on a ledge then since the tether recovery doesn't hit them?

 

[yoshi_fan]

Noooo Oli Nooooooooooo

:'(

I'm going to get flamed... but why not ban the edgehogging from tournaments, instead of DESTROYING 2 CHARACTERS... huh?

 

[pictish freak]

Aha! I knew I wasn't imagining things.

Re: "Tethers only working below the edge"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjm7vG2Ggnk

2:30, ivysaur latches on from above the stage. No telling from that how far above the edge you can be, but that tether was definitely from above the edge.

Edit: In fact, at 2:41 he manages to miss the edge but at an incredibly steep angle at which you'd never realistically need to tether. Oh how I wish I could test this.

Angles from the edge and the maximum height/distance you can be from the edge - anyone up to the challenge of documenting this? Seeing the exact range of angles available to tether the edge would be a really valuable contribution.

Edit edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UdDUHCEkuA 3:32, Ivysaur tethers from ages above the stage and quite far out too.

 

[Hydde]

Playing pure theory-smash, I have to say that despite concerns Ivysaur is probably the least effected by this, since he's the only one that doesn't have to fight at high %.

I understand this works at any percent, but I have to ask - if you back throw olimar or ivysaur, can they not use your cooldown time to very quickly tether the edge? While this would have big implications about dying at high damage, it'd mean at low health you could snap the edge before the opponent edgehogs it, meaning you simply have to tether quickly and don't have the luxury of waiting.

In the case of Ivysaur, I can imagine this forcing a switch to charizard at high damage. This seems minor given Red's playstyle focuses on swapping it up anyhow - no? As for Olimar, if it's possible to tether very quickly at low percents, this would simply mean he has problems recovering at high damage. Either way, I wonder if it would be possible to launch a projectile to clear the ledge if your aiming is proficient (especially olimar who can hardly spare the pikmin). If, like has been established, the edge hogger can sit there vulnerable, this would force them to ledge hop to try and stay invulnerable, creating an opening for tethering.

That said, this is purely hypothetical since I've not had the pleasure of playing Brawl yet. This is just a few ideas to throw out there, perhaps worth testing. I'm interested in how this plays out.

Well, looking at your advice... the case of ivysaur looks better now... the player just needs to fast fall ASAP and tether if he feels that the enemy is planning the trap, and in high% swap pokes.


In Olimars case.... i think he can throw piks in high %... but all have to do with the angle he flies withthe initia hit. Attacks like sheik´s slap in high %will send him in an angle that will be a sure detah with the edhogging.

This are just assumptions tho.

 

[jupiter]

Really? I've never noticed this happening to me. What ends up happening is that my tether reaches the ledge even while there's someone edge-hogging.

It looks weird. Your foe hanging from the ledge, then your tether sweetspots and you're dangling from it. When you pull yourself up, you just drop back down, but you can jump afterwards. At least, this is what happens to me. I don't know why we have different experiences

 

[yoshi_fan]

Well, looking at your advice... the case of ivysaur looks better now... the player just needs to fast fall ASAP and tether if he feels that the enemy is planning the trap, and in high% swap pokes.


In Olimars case.... i think he can throw piks in high %... but all have to do with the angle he flies withthe initia hit. Attacks like sheik´s slap in high %will send him in an angle that will be a sure detah with the edhogging.

This are just assumptions tho.

Yeah, Olimar canthrow pikmins sure, and poke trainer can change pokemon...

Waaa, this is the worst