Ducking Viability from a G&W main

[NouveauRétro]

While collecting data on ducking and such from G&W I figured other characters with awesome ducks might want in on some of this data collection action.
So I'm gonna share my notes with the Wii Fit, Kirby and Jigglypuff Boards.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-Lx4EUmrYVU9hX3ExCAsHea3vZvJdJolXAqV63aZnBM/edit?usp=sharing
Here's a viewing link for most grounded moves G&W can duck in the game. I recommend using it as a springboard since we'll share a lot of the moves.

^I created this tier list from the list based off how much ducking affected the character's ground game.
Explanation of Grading
Grading is based off how effective a G&W who often ducks is against these characters when both are grounded in the neutral
A+: Limits pretty much any good grounded approach option against this character and restricts most options in general, forcing the opponent to change how they play completely
A-: Limits grounded approach options heavily, but there is a way for the opponent to beat it but it takes a large risk in being shielded
B+: Limits enough options or good/often used enough options to make the opponent occasionally think twice about their options
B-: Limits some options but multiple simple and noncommital ways to beat it so that they don't have to change neutral much, or is inconsistent against some options
C: Limits one or two decent options that character has, but you have to duck it on hard read and the opponent has other non-duckable options that have an equal chance of being used, or avoids/makes hard to land a/some good options but is inconsistent(damn you animated hurtboxes!)
D: Can avoid a grounded approach or attack option, but it isn't an often used or good option.
F: Useless, can't avoid anything other than maybe an option that's already never used anyway

OK, that's the common section:

CHARACTER SPECIFIC SECTION;Wii Fit

Out of the characters I'm sharing this with, you're the only ones I expect to get even more out of this info than G&W himself. Your initial duck state is pretty much as low as G&W's 2nd frame of animation which is lower than the first so I believe you can avoid the *s in the Duck List with plain old decent timing. I look forward to hearing of any of this used in actual matches.


EDIT: This is an alternate version of the tier list that takes a bit more into account how important the moves being ducked are(Actually I just put some characters in the wrong tiers when translating from my Duck List -_-) This time I tried to order them within the tiers up to F where it doesn't matter.

 

[John12346]

While collecting data on ducking and such from G&W I figured other characters with awesome ducks might want in on some of this data collection action.

Ah, thanks for sharing! Not just with us, but with all of the characters who have low crouches. That's some initiative right there.

I'd like to mention, on the Ryu matchup, I'm not too keen on trying to play a crouching neutral against him when I'm at kill percents, because you never know when he's just gonna do the raw Dtilt>Shoryu combo. Unlike Utilt>Shoryu, he can't hitconfirm the combo (as in, he doesn't have time to react to whether or not the Dtilt actually hit), but you can't know what a Ryu will try in desperation if he's behind. It's really scary and unsettling when facing him down.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Ah, thanks for sharing! Not just with us, but with all of the characters who have low crouches. That's some initiative right there.

I'd like to mention, on the Ryu matchup, I'm not too keen on trying to play a crouching neutral against him when I'm at kill percents, because you never know when he's just gonna do the raw Dtilt>Shoryu combo. Unlike Utilt>Shoryu, he can't hitconfirm the combo (as in, he doesn't have time to react to whether or not the Dtilt actually hit), but you can't know what a Ryu will try in desperation if he's behind. It's really scary and unsettling when facing him down.

Thank for the info.
I put Ryu in A- because he loses grab against very low ducks, similar to Falcon and Little Mac. So it's more of a situation where his ONLY grounded option up close that catches both shield and duck is dtilts, and knowing what the opponent is gonna do makes it much easier to avoid. Not to mention that Hadouken, raw Shoryu, Focus Attack and Senpukyaku can be ducked, making him the only character where every single one of his specials can be ducked.
A- means Ryu has to take a risk to beat duck, and out of running he certainly does. his only option out of run that beats duck is ironically usmash, which is one of his few horribly unsafe moves.
I honestly dont know much about how safe dtilt is on shield, but I don't think it's actually spammable on shiled, that'd be quite the oversight by Ninty.
I plan to make in depth explanations for the 3 A tier characters in the future.

 

[⑨ball]

Ryu's dtilt is pretty safe on shield. It's punishable in and of itself, but due to having legit frame traps it's not really worth it. If he's walking it's best to just zone him out honestly.

 

[John12346]

There's also one thing I'd like to mention on Wii Fit's crouch, that sets it apart from the other low crouchers. When Kirby, Jigglypuff, and G&W perform a crouch, they do it immediately by just squishing themselves downwards. It's basically instantaneous.

Wii Fit, however, has to take a couple of frames to hunker down and get into her push-up position. While it's probably no more than 3 frames or so, that's still 3 frames where we're still not actually ducking under enemy attacks. Compared to the other low crouchers of Smash, it definitely gives us less liberty to try and perfectly time a crouch to dodge attacks, if you know what I mean.

 

[⑨ball]

There's a lot of things about crouchtech I want to get into a single place for everyone, but I'll wait til I can finalize this video.

Two things to note while the topic is getting attention however:

1. WFT is the only character who hits and stays at her lowest point during a crouch. All of the crouchgods can time a crouch and avoid things, but Kirby, G&W, and Jiggs all hit their lowest point for a few frames after crouching before they "stabalize"(for lack of a better word) into their crouch positions.

ex: All 4 characters can crouch MK's dash grab with good timing, only WFT can just lay on the ground and avoid it completely.

tl;dr: Shorties should try to dodge things just before they happen(cqc range), thingirls should get into position after seeing a burst (footsies range)

2. WFT is the only character who dramatically alters her hitbox while crouching. While this also makes her a much easier target to hit compared to her extremely thin standing position, the ability to move in between those states makes it possible to setup whiff punishes fairly easy, even being able to dodge the grabs of characters in F tier by simply using any movement option as they go for the grab.

ex: If Ryu low shorts (not held dtilt) WFT while she is crouching and facing away it will never true combo into anything.

ex2: If Pikachu goes for a grab against a crouching away facing WFT, fsmash in his direction can dodge and punish him.

tl;dr: use crouch while looking away to lvl up your footsies game