Duality Ruleset Concept, and Discussion. (OVER 100 CUSTOMS BANNED)

[DunnoBro]

After gathering input from EVO players and spectators alike, I've decided to try my hand at developing this so-called "impossible" banlist many players are clamoring for.

My intention is not actually directly disallowing players from selecting certain customs, but rather disallowing those customs from being allowed in the pre-set list to begin with. My criteria for what gets in and what doesn't should be considered subjective.

In addition to try delivering balance in the 1v1 department, this ruleset has three main goals.

1: To develop a healthy and easily transitioned to ALTERNATE META with customs. This ruleset isn't designed to be the standard for Smash 4.

Spoiler

To this end, the criteria for "bans" isn't necessarily balance, but extremity. (Again, this is to be considered SUBJECTIVE.)


As such, I propose something extreme to reflect this:

The Universal BAN of ALL Custom Upspecials!

(Mii Fighters may be excluded from this rule)


In addition the majority of the MOST EXTREME customs being upspecials, this also serves the purpose of keeping this an easy transition from a default meta due to effecting recoveries the least. (For both the player and opponent)

2: To develop a healthy DOUBLES meta within this Alternate Meta. As such, moves that while perhaps manageable in the 1v1 environment, become polarizing or “extreme” in the doubles environment and thus will be disallowed.

Spoiler

This includes the following:


Heavy Skull Bash, Trip Sapling, Hammer Spindash, Snaring Aura Sphere, and likely more to be discussed.

3: Community Compromise

Spoiler

As fond of customs as I am, and you may be, the sheer fact is there needs to be a give-and-take between competitive players, casuals/spectators, AND TOURNAMENT ORGANIZERS


As things are, tournament organizers are put in an awkward spot where they have MUCH more work to do and risks to take when running custom tournaments.


These include:
-Ensuring a proper amount of set-ups (or the ability to set-up at all)

-Backlash from certain community members

-Lower turnout from regions/players unfamiliar and not confident in the customs environment.

The final goal is to make as low-risk and appealing a ruleset to players/spectators AND TO'S as possible. They're a HUGE deciding factor in our community that are often taken for granted. I hope to appeal to them as well.

To get things rolling, I'll be including a list of talking points I'd like us to go over. This will be updated as the thread goes on, so check back often! Don't be afraid to submit new points as well.

Spoiler

-Which customs are truly Extreme

-The direction of the project

-Mii Fighters size/upspecial customs legality.

Lastly to address the inevitable "Why ban anything" and "All or Nothing" posts:

Spoiler

This ruleset isn't for you. This thread isn't for you.

This is for a very specific subset of players who believe many customs are fine, and/or enjoy them casually or as side events. And would prefer to play with those they deem acceptable as such.


I believe this is the most realistic way to deliver that environment to them, if you have a better way then do it yourself. And as stated, this isn't intended to be any kind of standard ruleset.

 

[thehard]

How many players/spectators who want a custom meta want so many moves disallowed as well?

I feel like, if this were to move forward, it would only be fair to make it the standard ruleset.

Hesitant either way.

 

[DunnoBro]

How many players/spectators who want a custom meta want so many moves disallowed as well?

I feel like, if this were to move forward, it would only be fair to make it the standard ruleset.

Hesitant either way.

This is more the "compromise" I'm speaking of. I personally do not particularly want all these customs banned(en masse, anyway), but feel unless something major like this happens to address the main complains of the anti-customs community, there will be too much rejection of all customs at large for even an alternate meta to survive.

I also personally really like playing default, and customs. Not all the locals i go to can run customs, nor do all players I play with like them. I'd like to make the transition as seemless as possible for players like me, and even those wary of customs.

 

[Seiniyta]

Banning all UP-B specials is already way overkill. That's not a compromise. That's literally killing 1/4th of all the custom moves.

I think we only need to ban the following moves and nothing more for the time being:

Counter sapling: Without counter sapling, the exploding balloons aren't as much of an issue and are more of a tradeoff. The planking ability of villager (which imo isn't a 'good' strategy. I feel like an agressive Villager with the axe is scarier) is hampered without the wall the sapling puts up.

Stun jolt: Heavy skull bash is really good, but after watching EVO I feel like the move although powerful is very manageable. Where the issue arises however is the stun jolt setting way too easily up for a hsb end or upsmash.

Maaaybe Hammer spindash: it looks incredibly stupid and it's pretty good, but I'm not sure it was lame at EVO because it's hamemr spindash or because it was Static Manny, who also made Sonic in general look dumb at CEO. So I'm unsure if it's that much of an issue yet.


For doubles I feel like we have to wait and see. Cyclone kong is great and all, but I've seen (hilarious though) more then often a cyclone team just lose because they end up killing their team mates more then the opponents.

Customs in doubles still feels very unexplored so I'd personally hold off banning moves specifically for doubles (yet)


Logistically, especcially in tournaments that expect people to bring their own setups it's very understandable if they don't allow custom moves. And it's a legtimate reason to not have custom moves because of it (curse you Sakuraaaai) But if a touranment can, I feel like they should.

It's more work for sure, but I think in the long term it will benefit the game greatly. Too many players weren't comfortable learning custom moves for their character because they were afraid of not being able to use them after EVO. It's an awful situation.

I saw glimpses of what Custom moves can bring to the game, but I feel that we barely have scratched the surface of them. (I <3 custom bowser)

 

[DunnoBro]

Banning all UP-B specials is already way overkill. That's not a compromise. That's literally killing 1/4th of all the custom moves.

They also make up the majority of controversial moves. My hopes are that if this setlist becomes popular with it's blandness, people will clamor for certain characters to be allowed their upspecials and make valid arguments next update.

I don't believe without the initial "blandness" or "similarity" to default, any kind of custom ruleset can take off. I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think I am and will continue working on this path.

As for hammer spindash, I've used that move for a loong time. Longer than seagull joe, and static manny. It's absolutely bonkers, and can't really be stuffed out with projectiles or jabs like default. It's also a ridiculous landing option that lets sonic convert his disadvantaged state into kills. Static manny is NOT why I consider this move bannable.

Also, as stated I don't care if things are "manageable" this ruleset is subjective.

This ruleset IS scrubby, it has to be if we want the sm4sh community at large to accept it.

 

[Shaya]

In the other topic I stated this but took it out but:

I like the idea of disallowing up-b customs. Point being that a character is generally balanced around their recoveries and have weaknesses often centred around this, with alternative options feasibly reducing those weaknesses whilst some are potentially polarizing during in-match game play.

Just a few:
Extreme Balloons: makes it dangerous/damaging to pursue villager off stage, also allows planking
Kong cyclone: ditto to pursuing him off stage, negates his disadvantaged state, heavily polarizing in matches.
Crescent Slash (Marth/Lucina): Grab release guaranteed kills at around 50% on 1/3rd of the cast? Yeah... I'm totally cool with that as a Marth player

Certain characters lose "fair" things like Kirby's up-b, which sucks. But it's impossible to have everyone come out unscathed here.

Mii Brawler probably doesn't pose any issues and is likely a top 20 character with Piston Punch, which isn't his "1" (although you noted miis could get leeway).

 

[DunnoBro]

In the other topic I stated this but took it out but:

I like the idea of disallowing up-b specials. Point being that a character is generally balanced around their recoveries and weaknesses are often centred around this, with alternative options feasibly reducing those weaknesses whilst some are potentially polarizing during in-match game play.

Just a few:
Extreme Balloons: makes it dangerous/damaging to pursue villager off stage, also allows planking
Kong cyclone: ditto to pursuing him off stage, negates his disadvantaged state, heavily polarizing in matches.
Crescent Slash (Marth/Lucina): Grab release guaranteed kills at around 50% on 1/3rd of the cast? Yeah... I'm totally cool with that as a Marth player

Certain characters look "fair" things like Kirby's up-b, which sucks. But it's impossible to have everyone come out unscathed here.

Upper cutter, duck jump snag, and falcon's hitting upb are definitely some losses.

Snag is the main reason custom duck hunt is good vs sheik... Her fair is unsafe on his shield and she can't outcamp him so she loses no matter which way she tries to play. Without it, she can go ham on me. But I'm not going to use him anymore anyway so eh...

Though I also thought crescent slash was a pretty fair move. I didn't know it killed that early off true combo grabs.

In addition to how characters are balanced in regards to their upspecials, custom upspecials in general seem to have this extreme "risk/reward" skew that considers just being a worse recovery move in a game with magno-ledges a worthy trade-off to super early kills.

Generally, you're not going to gimp diddy kong at as low percents as he will kill you with rocketbarrel attack. And ganon and donkey kong's "worse" recovery moves are kind of invalidated as worse since the opponent can't interrupt them.

Furthermore, most characters who benefit greatly from an upspecial, still appreciate customs. Donkey kong's electric punch is HUGE. It gives him essentially a fair which helps him land, which is his main issue in default. Ganon gets dropkick, which helps his recovery and mobility without being too absurd. The custom choke is a little extreme, though it's essentially just a worse flying slam imo.

 

[Seiniyta]

They also make up the majority of controversial moves. My hopes are that if this setlist becomes popular with it's blandness, people will clamor for certain characters to be allowed their upspecials and make valid arguments next update.

I don't believe without the initial "blandness" or "similarity" to default, any kind of custom ruleset can take off. I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think I am and will continue working on this path.

As for hammer spindash, I've used that move for a loong time. Longer than seagull joe, and static manny. It's absolutely bonkers, and can't really be stuffed out with projectiles or jabs like default. It's also a ridiculous landing option that lets sonic convert his disadvantaged state into kills. Static manny is NOT why I consider this move bannable.

Also, as stated I don't care if things are "manageable" this ruleset is subjective.

This ruleset IS scrubby, it has to be if we want the sm4sh community at large to accept it.

I persnally believe this might actually do the opposite. With banning so many of them you'll get a lot more "Why bother with custom moves at all if a quarter of them are banned?"

A legitemate critism of the custom moveset list is that not all possible move combinations are possible and it limits the freedom of players in choosing what they want to play regardless if those movesets are (at the time of creating them) the best possible movesets for those characters.

I get what you're trying to do. But I personally think it's the wrong way to go about it. I don't think you'll find more acceptance by banning 1/4th + the controversial moves but to the contray that with so many banned why would TO's care at all using them?

 

[DunnoBro]

I persnally believe this might actually do the opposite. With banning so many of them you'll get a lot more "Why bother with custom moves at all if a quarter of them are banned?"

That is a fear I share, and I don't disagree with any of your points necessarily. It's just I have other fears which outweigh them. If this project fails and @Amazing Ampharos or another set list with no bans succeeds, I'll be content. If you don't believe in me or my project, please support those instead.

 

[Seiniyta]

That is a fear I share, and I don't disagree with any of your points necessarily. It's just I have other fears which outweigh them. If this project fails and @Amazing Ampharos or another set list with no bans succeeds, I'll be content. If you don't believe in me or my project, please support those instead.

I personally believe @Amazing Amphoras's moveset project is the way to go. Everyone knows how the EVO system worked and wiht the next update to the moveset list the controversial moves can be removed. I feel it's the most effective way to go about it. If a local tournament still allows those moves they can put them on the WiiU with the 3DS like they've been doing for the past few months. I feel it's a win-win situation in that regard imo.

 

[Shaya]

If you reduce the amount of custom "sets" that are available for a character, it becomes a lot more accessible.
i.e. "oh just one or two custom sets on a character I like to play? I can work with that".

Something that many anti-custom feel is that they just want a "balanced" smash game. If you're arguing to them that most of the things "jank" were removed, while at the same time "buffing" characters that need it (Ganon's drop kick is the star example), this may appease them.

I personally have all customs unlocked on my wiiu (first thing I did) although I have no custom sets on it, nor play with any of them. A single (or maybe a secondary) 'optimal' set would be worthwhile for me to think about and work with to advance with.
With each character being down to just 1 up-b, that's reducing the amount of sets per character to 27, that's a lot easier to wrap my head around.
In Marth's case, knowing that several of his custom choices aren't worth taking in 99% of situations, that's further reducing things to 2 (neutral, maybe 3) * 1 (side, maybe 2), * 1 (up) * 2 (down) = 4 (or 12) sets total. I doubt we likely need more than 2 or 3 really but the breadth of which to consider is pretty small.

 

[Seiniyta]

If you reduce the amount of custom "sets" that are available for a character, it becomes a lot more accessible.
i.e. "oh just one or two custom sets on a character I like to play? I can work with that".

Something that many anti-custom feel is that they just want a "balanced" smash game. If you're arguing to them that most of the things "jank" were removed, while at the same time "buffing" characters that need it (Ganon's drop kick is the star example), this may appease them.

Or just having custom moves for characters we agree on need them to compete on a competitive level, or at least improve it.
Sheik, Pikachu, Luigi, Ness for example don't need custom moves. But a character like Kirby, Wiifit trainer, charizard, Bowser, Gannon do benefit from them greatly. It's a different approach, harder however to achieve as more fighting will happen over who doesn't and does need them.

 

[DunnoBro]

Or just having custom moves for characters we agree on need them to compete on a competitive level, or at least improve it.
Sheik, Pikachu, Luigi, Ness for example don't need custom moves. But a character like Kirby, Wiifit trainer, charizard, Bowser, Gannon do benefit from them greatly. It's a different approach, harder however to achieve as more fighting will happen over who doesn't and does need them.

Things change a lot with all but upspecials. Kirby, WFT, Bowser, and Ganon still benefit a lot without custom upspecials.

Like stated, if it isn't enough to make them viable (likely isn't) then I'm HOPING to receive backlash about it, and people having a discussion on whether said upspecial should actually be allowed.

My hopes are to facilitate an ongoing discussion regarding bans, because I feel they're needed. How needed? I'm not sure and no one is. I just want to create the environment we can find out for ourselves.

 

[DanGR]

I'd prefer adding 1 custom ban to the ban phase of each tournament set.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd prefer to add 1 custom ban to the ban phase of each tournament set.

That seems silly, and alters the entire playstyle of the character and discourages full investment into it. If it's bannable within a single set, it shouldn't be legal to begin with imo.

This also isn't logistically feasible. Since we're locked to sets.

 

[Seiniyta]

edit: woops, not sure what happened but regardless

We have some time, smashcon uses no customs. Which is fine, by then the august patch that brings in the tourney mode rolls around and probably balance changes and perhaps a surprise dlc character (who knows). Then we'll see if they touch any custom moves or not.

It all depends if they watched EVO.

 

[DunnoBro]

edit: woops, not sure what happened but regardless

We have some time, smashcon uses no customs. Which is fine, by then the august patch that brings in the tourney mode rolls around and probably balance changes and perhaps a surprise dlc character (who knows). Then we'll see if they touch any custom moves or not.

It all depends if they watched EVO.

Of course, if they actually patch customs then this is likely unneeded. Which is why this is just concept for now, but I'd like to lay the groundwork to take things into our own hands if nintendo lets us down.

 

[Seiniyta]

Of course, if they actually patch customs then this is likely unneeded. Which is why this is just concept for now, but I'd like to lay the groundwork to take things into our own hands if nintendo lets us down.

I'm fairly confident that Sakurai will patch out the thunder wave infinite at least if he's aware of it. He tends to patch things out that to him look unfair/unfun. (rip dacus and diddy)

 

[DanGR]

That seems silly, and alters the entire playstyle of the character and discourages full investment into it. If it's bannable within a single set, it shouldn't be legal to begin with imo.

This also isn't logistically feasible. Since we're locked to sets.

By that logic, doesn't banning all up-b customs do the same thing?- discourage full investment into each character? Could you explain that some? I don't follow. I don't see it that way. By removing one custom move per set forces players to learn how to use more than just heavy skull bash and hammer spin dash. I'd say it encourages diversification rather than disincentivizes it.

And I suppose I should have worded what I said differently. It's more forced variation than a "ban," per se. It's adding individual preference to remove a custom in a similar way players remove stages in stage striking.


Also, in my area it's totally feasible to do it this way. We don't enforce the use of premade custom sets.

 

[DunnoBro]

By that logic, doesn't banning all up-b customs do the same thing?- discourage full investment into each character? Could you explain that some? I don't follow. I don't see it that way. By removing one custom move per set forces players to learn how to use more than just heavy skull bash and hammer spin dash. I'd say it encourages diversification rather than disincentivizes it.

And I suppose I should have worded what I said differently. It's more forced variation than a "ban," per se. It's adding individual preference to remove a custom in a similar way players remove stages in stage striking.


Also, in my area it's totally feasible to do it this way. We don't enforce the use of premade custom sets.

Most places use presets, and this is also the only feasible way to enforce bans on a large scale. If you want to make a ruleset like that for your own and other custom-unlocked scenes, feel free to.

As for investment, no. Players will only need to know how to use one upspecial or custom set per situation. With bans, they need to know several. It's an interesting idea, but not one that really delivers the effect I think anti-customs players want.

 

[thehard]

So this is basically taking the Balanced Brawl approach to customs (also being able to transition easily between VSm4sh and CSm4sh)? I sort of like that. Trimming the fat can be good. As you know, I don't think it's strictly necessary, but if it means more widespread acceptance of customs, I can't really say I'd miss Counter Sapling and friends.

If the aim is focused on providing a more balanced game versus bending to the whims of ignorant competitors then I think we are golden.

You still appearing on Blast Zone @ DunnoBro ?

 

[DunnoBro]

Oh, coney never greenlighted or even acknowledged me for blast zone lol Pretty sure he's gonna go with some more relevant people

 

[thehard]

Oh, coney never greenlighted or even acknowledged me for blast zone lol Pretty sure he's gonna go with some more relevant people

I thought you'd be a shoo-in.

 

[Gunla]

So, something a bit like Balanced Brawl, where it's less overhaul and moreso akin to more bells and whistles? Having some customs banned seems like a possibility, and given that some are certainly extremities and strange, detracting from the character, etc. Might as well pass up a few thoughts on this:

Spoiler: Extreme Customs

• Some of the obvious ones (Trip Sapling, HSB, etc) would be deserving of bans. When the most optimal play becomes borderline degenerative play, it's not fun to watch and it's certainly disgusting, since people will abuse it to win and it makes the spectator aspect of it a bit lame.
• For Doubles, I'd definitely agree on the Snaring Aura Sphere. While we can't do much about GnW + Sheik other than tack a ban on it (which is another issue for another day entirely), Snaring Aura Sphere gives Villager + Lucario teams the Marvel Sphere, which can be infuriating.
• Thunder Wave's Infinite may potentially be addressed. We saw the Supercharged Pikmin get patched out, for instance, because it was unfair and obscene, giving Olimar an instant kill with fairly easy setup.
• Kong Cyclone is an arguable case, but I lean towards the "it's extreme" category. The fact that it has a ridiculous windbox combined with it's damage, speed and landing lag cancelling makes for a move that dominates it's space on AA's project for a reason.

For banning Up Specials, I do think it's possible to ban them (nor is it that out there). In addition to stuff like EX Balloon Trip, we have the "no hitbox but high recovery" type moves, as well as the "stronger but trash recovery" moves, which kind of tamper with a character's predefined weaknesses. Mario's Super Jump and Explosive Jump drastically change his gameplan because of the way that it affects his survival. Take into account the fact that there's characters where customs are less of "superior" and more of "additional options that aren't required" and the amount of sets greatly diminishes, making it less and less of a headache. While there's some Up-B customs that work as the additional options, unfortunately they're sometimes few and far between. Can't please everyone.

I can say that on Greninja's end, the main sets that are actually used are 1112, 3111, and 3112. Shifting works as an option, but it is not superior to WS because of what it trades off.

Outside of the Up Special bans, I think Miis should get a pass due to how they're designed.

It was noted earlier, but custom bans mid-set aren't exactly too feasible. Because of the way the customs work, we're limited to primarily using presets (because I can assure you not every single setup will have customs), and there's not likely enough sets to account for every specific ban. Hence, we ban extremities and outliers from the get go.

While I'm in favor of customs, I'm not too sold on many of them and many players aren't on a majority of them. You've piqued my interest, DunnoBro.

 

[thehard]

Biased opinion: Falcon needs his hitting Up-B so I can do super deep edgeguards and still recover.

 

[DunnoBro]

Outside of the Up Special bans, I think Miis should get a pass due to how they're designed.

Yea, I think mii fighters should get a pass, but brawler's kick and piston are both pretty ridiculous, but I'd like to hear from more mii users first.

It's generally only brawler that poses an issue, but he's also kind of bad without his custom upspecials... Only real kill move outside of smashes and some specials.

I'll try to get into contact with some prominent mii users. I'm thinking either:

All Legal as they are now
All Customs legal but locked to default sizes only
Upspecials locked
Specific helicopter kick ban

Considering dapuffster who's been using that character... Forever and no one having real experience against it, and he still only got 13th, I'm leaning towards all legal. But it's still somewhat controversial.

Biased opinion: Falcon needs his hitting Up-B so I can do super deep edgeguards and still recover.

Speaking of biased opinions, what do you guys think of zigzag? I think it's healthy, but still pretty extreme(though so is default. nothing like it in the history of the game). I will say there is no real guaranteed set-up for the carry-off KOs. They pretty much need to air dodge or throw out a move that didn't beat zigzag while at a certain percent, usually after an upair. If they jump it won't ever kill them since it doesn't auto combo if they have any horizontal momentum, but it still kind of reminds me of a killing upspecial due to that kind of situation.

 

[shinyskarmory]

I think this ruleset, while an interesting idea, has major problems with clarity of ruleset and entry barriers. Sure, all up special mods are banned, that's simple enough...but then you have bans on other stuff like HSB, Trip Sapling, etc. And that's not even the endgame for this plan, we're planning to legalize some of the upBs for characters we feel are "deserving" (never mind how we decide what characters are weak enough to merit a choice of recovery option).

While I'm not against customs compromises in general, I am against this particular one. It's far too complicated for us to effectively introduce to new players and doesn't solve any of the problems that anti-customs players have with customs. Obviously jank customs are not limited to UpBs, so the antis will still say it's too jank and the TOs still have to grind for customs on all their setups.

I have not yet seen an idea that addresses the customs vs anti-customs issue better than separate brackets/tourneys. The customs/no customs split is a perfectly fine solution that allows both sides to have what they want and for the stronger, deeper meta to eventually win out on its own merits. I can't get behind any "solution" that doesn't solve the problem equally well.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think this ruleset, while an interesting idea, has major problems with clarity of ruleset and entry barriers. Sure, all up special mods are banned, that's simple enough...but then you have bans on other stuff like HSB, Trip Sapling, etc. And that's not even the endgame for this plan, we're planning to legalize some of the upBs for characters we feel are "deserving" (never mind how we decide what characters are weak enough to merit a choice of recovery option).

While I'm not against customs compromises in general, I am against this particular one. It's far too complicated for us to effectively introduce to new players and doesn't solve any of the problems that anti-customs players have with customs. Obviously jank customs are not limited to UpBs, so the antis will still say it's too jank and the TOs still have to grind for customs on all their setups.

I have not yet seen an idea that addresses the customs vs anti-customs issue better than separate brackets/tourneys. The customs/no customs split is a perfectly fine solution that allows both sides to have what they want and for the stronger, deeper meta to eventually win out on its own merits. I can't get behind any "solution" that doesn't solve the problem equally well.

The thing is, the average player won't see all this complexity. They will see what sets are legal, and either be upset theirs isn't or not care. If they want to play it, they can. If they don't, they don't have to. It is designed as a separate meta for a reason.

I'm well aware this ruleset isn't ideal, though.

 

[Big O]

Personally I feel like this compromise is unnecessary.

You blanket ban all custom Up B's as an elegant way to get rid of most of the controversial customs. However, doing so is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Sure you stop the qq from Kong Cyclone and Exploding Balloon Trip, but now you get rid of all the cool and positive choices as well like G&W, Megaman, and Palutena Up B's. Giving more weight to getting rid of the few "jank" customs than to preserving the rest of the good ones is one of the main reasons for favoring customs off in the first place. Such an extensive blanket ban on 1/4th of the customs out of the gate basically does nothing but show a lack of confidence that customs are worth implementing.

If the goal is to achieve the best balance possible, removing the most polarizing/annoying jank, or even just making customs more appealing to everyone, why not focus on putting all specials that people hate (including defaults too!) on the banlist instead of all Up B's and a few of the ones that get complained about anyway. Ban Spindash, Needle Storm, Bouncing Fish, Quick Attack, Boost Kick, Gravitational Pull, Oil Panic/Pocket in doubles, along with the Kong Cyclones, Counter Saplings, Heavy skull Bashes, and Hammer Spindashes that people love to hate.

Honestly though, if we end up deciding on individual move bans for Customs On we have to decide on something very important beforehand. We need a clear goal.

Do we go ahead and start banning things left and right because we want to make the game as fun as possible (a subjective goal that will never really be agreed upon)? Do we want to want to ban as little as possible and only in order to prevent overcentralization of the metagame (an objective goal that can more or less be agreed upon)? I suppose we could also try to actively balance the game by restricting access to polarizing/dominant specials across the board too, but ultimately there are too many decisions that need to be made in unison for this to be realistic. The only goal that makes sense is the same criteria that is also used by other fighting games.

Throw politics into the mix and perhaps a few target bans to please the dissenters may be a necessary evil to shift public opinion on customs, but I'm not really convinced the majority of players actually dislike customs at this point.

 

[thehard]

Without a doubt there needs to be clear, consistent reasoning behind any customs being left off a set. I'd like to see some default specials "balanced" too, but I can't see that going over well with top players (maybe I'm wrong though? Would like to hear more input from them.) It's probably easiest to do evaluations character-by-character, CSS style.

Project name proposal: the Smashboards Custom Revision Undertaking for Balance?

 

[Shaya]

The end goal of having customs accepted/existing in one way or another involves drastically reducing the complexity on all counts.
Pseudo balance / widespread banning may not please everyone, but this has ultimately never been about pleasing everyone. If we're out to please the majority in the simplest way possible RIGHT NOW, it involves their complete ban; that's where many active player's mindsets are at. The longer that stance is planted and every instance of information conforming to that bias for those people, the complication in uprooting that status quo gets significantly harder.

Custom presets (and the realisation something like this was needed) was what saved customs in the last six months. But as of right now it isn't "enough" to bring a majority onside with it. The format, method and outwards expression HAVE to change.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Yea, I think mii fighters should get a pass, but brawler's kick and piston are both pretty ridiculous, but I'd like to hear from more mii users first.

It's generally only brawler that poses an issue, but he's also kind of bad without his custom upspecials... Only real kill move outside of smashes and some specials.

I'll try to get into contact with some prominent mii users. I'm thinking either:

All Legal as they are now
All Customs legal but locked to default sizes only
Upspecials locked
Specific helicopter kick ban

I've been watching the debates on mii upspecials (and as a mii main - all three styles - I'm genuinely invested) in regards to how to handle them with the customs off meta. The main argument for allowing helicopter kick is that it's no more "jank" than zss' early up b kills without any customs at all.

That being said, puffster was willing to compromise with mii sizes and some brawler users seem to be willing to stick with piston punch if absolutely necessary.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well, it's definitely more potent than ZSS upspecial though he's more reliant on it to compensate.

I personally think just restricting mii sizes would be enough, honestly. Without mobility the set-ups and chases just seem harder, not to mention he's an overall worse character. But obviously my personal opinion doesn't quite overlap with the community.

 

[Illuminose]

Figured I'd post here for the sake of constructive discussion because I do find this an interesting endeavor. I find your point that a lot of the problematic or "janky" customs are up specials really interesting because it's very true. There's recovery buffs in no hitbox but high distance recovery moves and power recovery moves with less distance that sort of mess with the intended weaknesses/balancing of characters. At minimum though, these are the Up Bs that we need to get rid of I think:

Rocketbarrel Attack: This move kills early. By early, I mean that kill percent without rage is like 85%. With rage, I've seen the move kill at 65%. It's strong, fast, and moreover a poorly balanced move due to have a strong, large hitbox throughout. The quickness of the move allows it to true confirm out of banana and be used for quick punishes in certain cases, such as on air dodges, when a character is caught in lag, or even the regular getup if your timing is on point. You can't really challenge these barrels that great either, which sort of invalidates the ability to edgeguard him in a sense as challenging Diddy Kong's barrels is a major way that you can edgeguard him (and Diddy is a top 10 character).

Kong Cyclone: Overcentralizes DK's neutral around a move that almost cannot be challenged and overall is a straight upgrade/simplifies his gameplay. It has super armor, janky windboxes, and autocancels on pretty much any platform. It does a ton of damage, can suck opponents in and even have significant shield pushback if you hit it a certain way for whateve reason, and can even kill. Even though there are countermeasures, the way this move simplifies DK's gameplay and serves as such an absurd all-purpose option is way too much.

Extreme Balloon Trip: The nerfs really didn't affect this move for ledge camping...like at all from what I'm seeing. Its ability to cover Villager's recovery and set up ridiculous hitboxes through the stage and around Villager invalidates challenging his recovery (which is supposed to be something you can do) and even challenging his position on the ledge, regardless of trip sapling even! The knockback and damage are kind of ridiculous for what it is too.

Jumbo Hoops: Even though Wii Fit Trainer isn't some amazing character, I think we've seen that she really isn't too bad and that Jumbo Hoops are a little ridiculous. The shield pressure on the move is insane. Your best option is literally to sit there, let your shield deteriorate and then take the damage. The size and invincibility of the hoops is pretty crazy given the sheer amount of damage (6% per hit, you can usually get two hits and at low percents can true combo 3-4 hits for outrageous amounts of damage). You can't really shield them either, and you can cover yourself by the ledge as well as even just throw out the move on shielding opponents in neutral.

Double Spring: I had never even seen this move before EVO, but I think we've seen enough to recognize that it brings Sonic's camping game to another level. Normally when Sonic uses the spring as his get out of jail free card, he has two options. Either do the immediate autocancel dair (which has a set trajectory) or suffer being landing trapped. In fact, trouble landing is one of Sonic's notable flaws as a top tier character that is supposed to be exploitable. With double spring, landing with Sonic is free, completely free. This makes it even more difficult for characters to hit Sonic and therefore is super polarizing in regards to characters that already have difficulty with Sonic's camping and hitting him in general.

Helicopter Kick: Enough has been said about this move in many regards, but basically this move is ridiculous. It comes out pretty fast and isn't even that punishable while killing ridiculously early. If you get a grab at 40-50ish near the edge of the stage, you can carry them closer toward the horizontal blastzone with fair and combo straight into Up B for a kill. Outside of that, it's a pretty devastating out-of-shield punish in general. It kills way too early and can be easily comboed into from a grab. These traits together make Helicopter Kick too much.

Twisting Fox: It's an insane move. You get punished super hard for challenging Fox's Up B, which is supposed to be exploitable. You can frame trap air dodges, you can punish, you can read, and you can even combo into it with falling fair. For what it is, this move kills way too early for a character that already has plenty of kill power and ignores balancing that was done in terms of your ability to challenge/deal with his recovery.

Ol' One Two: Yes, it's Dr. Mario. Do you think that a true combo grab confirm which kills at 70% if you have like any rage is a healthy option for any character? I sure don't.

Dark Fists: It has super armor and kills stupid early as an out-of-shield punish or otherwise punish for pretty much any overextension. By stupid early I mean 50% from the ground with rage.

The next priority is getting rid of infinites, which means banning:

Thunder Wave
Lightning Falcon Kick

Custom moves that clearly don't work properly and are unbalanced for that reason:

Heavy Skull Bash: Smash charge makes this instant to charge and we all know how it kills ridiculously early.
Lightweight: I don't really see how infinite Lightweight could possibly be intended and I think it's obvious that this ignores any drawbacks or actual counterplay to a move that gives Palutena the best mobility in the game and easy grab kill confirms at like 80%, which is ridiculous. This move is free when it's intended to have a notable drawback/cost to using it that doesn't exist due to its glitchy implementation with infinite Lightweight.

Moves that encourage degenerate gameplay (outside Up Bs already mentioned):

Timber Counter: While the sapling is active, which is 15 seconds, Villager has stage control until he has to replant the sapling. This allows him to set up strong camping positions that can be almost impenetrable for certain characters and inevitably lead to running the clock/degenerate gameplay. Tripping effect is just too much reward. Villager's defensive zoning game is already really good, he doesn't need something like this to enhance it to levels that are unhealthy especially when combined with the Extreme Balloon Trip but even without.

Hammer Spin Dash: Way, way too much reward off spin dash and the hop at the beginning increases the variety of trajectories that Sonic can escape to, benefitting his keepaway game. The reward is overpowered but it's also degenerate because it benefits Sonic's already astoundingly powerful keepaway game.

Other:

Shooting Star Bit: This move gives Rosalina way too much control/zoning capabilities in neutral for a character that's top 2 in the game and already has really powerful zoning capabilities. This move is unpunishable and polarizing.

Quick Missile: This move blatantly ignores Luigi's main flaw which is recovery by giving him instant insane horizontal distance. Luigi is top 5 and his recovery being linear/exploitable is one of the big things that keeps him manageable. It should stay this way.

Soaring Tornado: I'm not trying to hate on Doc I swear...no idea why they had to give him such janky custom Up B and Down B options, lol. The hitbox on this move has a massive disjoint and ridiculous knockback. It beats everything. If you set up an edgeguard with this move (which isn't too hard considering the huge disjointed range that the move covers), they're dying at like 50%. Your recovery is covered so well too. This move has so much knockback and so much disjointed range for no reason at all and no drawbacks, bottom line.

 

[DunnoBro]

Kill confirms at 80% for a character who struggles to do damage seems okay to me, and the lightweight "infinite" doesn't really do anything but let her refresh her lightweight. It's pretty extreme, but overall balanced imo

Her kill confirms are actually pretty iffy too, with proper DI mix-ups. But I'll admit it's extreme, I'd like to see other opinions on it.

Quick missile also has a lot of deadzones, and he covers a lot of ground while vulnerable... Boss tested this with me and hated it since it loses to a lot of moves and the misfire doesn't kill.

Overall good list, though. Definitely some good talking points.

 

[Seiniyta]

I don't like that big of a list. We only should ban the ones that are known to be problematic. We shouldn't just willy nilly ban a bunch of moves just because they hit hard unless it's really insane. 70/80% is not insane at all. It's good, but not insane.

Ideally I'd only ban Trip sapling, thunder wave & Hammer Spindash.

is Helicopter Kick really really strong? Yes, but it's also a move you can bait out, and you can punish heavily on whiff. Furthermore, we've seen people wiht great DI live really long. As long as you realize that you always should try being at the center it's not that big of an issue. It's an overrated move.

I'm coming from mostly an FGC background, and there's always been cheese/cheap moves and we had to play around them. Arbitrarly put bans on fireballs and such never lasted. I'm of the personal opinion we only ban the very few where it's really neccecary and where we have more then enough data on.

Remove the problematic movesets from the custom moveset list and replace with something else to fill in. The only thing a TO then has to worry about is that on a local/weekly where you can bring your 3DS to add your own moveset if isn't part of the list is that those banned moves aren't used.

Considering how infamous they are, shouldn't be hard to enforce.

 

[Shaya]

Complacency is the death of all things, but a lot competitors want consistency. If the abuse of another move starts to be seen as a problem down the line then is deemed "banned" it's going to be messy.

The intention right here is for making customs more appeasing to competitors in sight of what seems to be a widespread switch to customs off in many regions, which will make the custom meta untenable. If given the choice between customs and no customs, players are picking the latter. When you tell them "81 sets per character are possible to be picked" or when a move which has widespread distaste still stays "legal", that's a selling point easily lost.

If you want to argue that only very few customs should be banned, that only resolves a small part of the majority of people who are anti-customs.
In "book" definition terms, yes it's all heavily "scrub mentality" but when the customs-off meta is the primary option on offer without all the contention, it's hard to bring that argument against people.

Yes this is all a marketing exercise. A separate but "pure" meta with customs on could exist but it would need a lot of help and likely wouldn't be able to match (or even compare) to support given to the vanilla game. Would this middle ground alienate those who enjoy the customs meta? Possibly. Would people who were anti-customs still not support this? Probably.
It may be lose/lose, but it's perhaps worth the exercise (I'm sure a similar feeling could've been argued about AA's custom presets in the first place)

 

[Hippieslayer]

This seems overly complicated, would rather simply see the oppressive customs banned, ergo exploding balloons, trip sapling, hsb, hammer spindash, and some more. Shouldn't that be enough? How is this a better solution? I don't see it. I'd rather make a longer list of customs banned on specific conditions rather than blanket ban a bunch of stuff for no logical reason the way you suggest up-b's be banned.

 

[Seiniyta]

So, this is something from Twitter: @JuiceDoom takes all the credit for this) which I found a pretty elegant way to implement custom moves.

1 custom move per moveset for every character (not sure about mii's)

What we get are 9 movesets in total (default included):

1111
1211
1311
1121
1131
1112
1113
2111
3111

A list that's uniform across all characters and easier to understand. Doesn't need to be updated as it would remain for the game's lifetime like this. (So uploading the sets to a WiiU will only happen once for that WiiU instead of EVO2015 moveset to Apex 2016 moveset update as they are adjusted)

It removes some of the deadly combinations (villager in particular) and it's easier for a competitor to deal with as it's only one move at a time that's different.

It doesn't remove all the cheese from the game, but it does ensure you can't stack the cheese to something dreadful.

 

[Raijinken]

I feel like a blanket ban on all custom UpBs is unnecessary, but if this becomes the one way to get customs played, I'll support it.

Also, I have no opinion on Gunner or Swordfighter's default UpB's, but Brawler's is trash and should be excluded from that rule.

So, this is something from Twitter (Juice Doom/Max Ketchum takes all the credit for this) which I found a pretty elegant way to implement custom moves.

1 custom move per moveset for every character (not sure about mii's)

What we get are 9 movets in total (default included):

1111
1211
1311
1121
1131
1112
1113
2111
3111

A list that's uniform across all characters and easier to understand. Doesn't need to be updated as it would remain for the game's lifetime like this. (So uploading the sets to a WiiU will only happen once for that WiiU instead of EVO2015 moveset to Apex 2016 moveset update as they are adjusted)

It removes some of the deadly combinations (villager in particular) and it's easier for a competitor to deal with as it's only one move at a time that's different.

It doesn't remove all the cheese from the game, but it does ensure you can't stack the cheese to something dreadful.

Unfortunately, while it removes some "deadly" combinations (in quotes because literally every one of those lost at EVO), it also prevents a lot of characters who currently appear to need such combinations from fighting on even standing. A Villager can still plank but I have to pick either Iai or Crescent as Marth? Sheik's still Sheik but Doc can only pick one of his 3-4 useful abilities?

Again, I'd support it if it's literally the only way to convince people to keep customs permanently, but it's nonsensically inhibitive, especially in a meta where "top" characters benefit from exactly one custom (or none), and lower characters need 2-4 to be decent.

Basically, I see this as a push to remove most of the extra learning involved with practicing for customs. Which is something almost every high-level player or commentator has expressed (in my opinion, unwarranted) concern over.

Also RIP Palutena.