Mr Bushido
Smash Ace
N.B. Hyrule will not be mentioned in this post and it is useless to discuss it in this thread.
N.B.B. don't ****ing vote before reading the entire post
(Current ruleset is 5 stocks, DL neutral, PC and CJ as counterpicks)
Many people have changed their minds about the Dreamland-only debate, after seeing how shallow the counterarguments to leave counterpicks are. This thread is for those people to re-cast their vote. Here is why YOU want a DL-only ruleset:
1. DREAMLAND IS THE MOST BALANCED STAGE
(counterargument to all stages having hazardous elements, including DL)
Dreamland consists of a main stage, with two side platforms and a higher top platform. Its only asymmetrical properties are its slightly higher right side platform (negligeable) and fact that the wind cannot push off a player off the right ledge (NOT pertinent).
The only stage hazard is the wind, and it can be predicted very easily: (credit to star ****)
PEACH'S CASTLE:
- Horizontal moving platform and bumper create asymmetry
- Bumper and side triangular prisms can allow players to survive a strong attack like a rest or giant punch
- Both bumpers and the triangular prisms are hard to keep track of, especially when on the lower part of the stage
- No ledges = every character's recovery is nerfed. low tiers' recoveries are nerfed drastically (i.e. Ness and DK)
CONGO JUNGLE:
- Rotating platforms create asymmetry
- Barrel is a stage hazard that more often than not rewards players based on luck rather than skill
- Stage is dark and dark palettes cannot be used. Players who use dark palettes are forced to switch and may be psychologically nerfed
- Barrel can be kept tracked of by observing the movement of the rotating platforms; when the rotating platforms are horizontally aligned, the barrel is at either end of the stage; when they are vertically aligned, the barrel is at the center of the stage. The first scenario creates ambiguity because there is no way to know which of the two sides the barrel is located.
This is why YOU want a symmetrical stage:
(counterargument to having more stage variety with PC/CJ)
Prioritizing stage variety over character variety is NOT something you want. Low tiers (and all characters actually) are better on Dreamland.
Here are some techniques many low tiers rely upon, that they cannot use as effectively on other stages:
*Samus:
-can use upB to escape pressure and land on platform / ledge cancel
- can platform tech chase with DAir on all platforms
- can use bomb to edgeguard and grab the ledge (which cannot be done on PC due to the lack of ledges nor on CJ due to the semi-soft stage, barrel also reduces effectiveness)
*Luigi:
-perfect land upB from ground to top platform
-platforms can be used to regain jumps and continue combos
-easier edge DI'ing (no ledges on PC + no DI'able ground/wall)
*Link: (arguably better on PC but not worth the trouble)
-perfect land on side platforms with double jump
-can ledge cancel upB on platforms
*Ness: (he sucks ass EVERYWHERE, especially stages that aren't Dreamland)
-can platform techchase with dair
-can sweetspot ledges with much more ease (can't even grab a ledge on PC)
*DK:
-can upair combo with side platforms
-upB to escape pressure is harder to punish thanks to platforms and ledges
*Jigglypuff (not really a low tier but HEY)
-rest kills are more likely due to no bumper / PC triangles
-platforms can be used to regain jumps and continue combos.
now VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ty.
P.S. you can only vote for one option
bonus: kerokeroppi changing his mind
#adreamlandcumtrue
N.B.B. don't ****ing vote before reading the entire post
(Current ruleset is 5 stocks, DL neutral, PC and CJ as counterpicks)
Many people have changed their minds about the Dreamland-only debate, after seeing how shallow the counterarguments to leave counterpicks are. This thread is for those people to re-cast their vote. Here is why YOU want a DL-only ruleset:
1. DREAMLAND IS THE MOST BALANCED STAGE
(counterargument to all stages having hazardous elements, including DL)
Dreamland consists of a main stage, with two side platforms and a higher top platform. Its only asymmetrical properties are its slightly higher right side platform (negligeable) and fact that the wind cannot push off a player off the right ledge (NOT pertinent).
The only stage hazard is the wind, and it can be predicted very easily: (credit to star ****)
Other stages are asymmetrical, their stage hazards are much harder to predict and more gamebreaking:"It's pretty simple. If players on one side of the stage > players on the other side when the tree decides to start blowing, the tree turns to blow on that side. If players on one side = players on other side, it blows in the direction it's already facing. This includes 0 = 0, as the tree does not detect players in the air, hanging on the edge, or on the top platform. The tree starts the game facing right."
PEACH'S CASTLE:
- Horizontal moving platform and bumper create asymmetry
- Bumper and side triangular prisms can allow players to survive a strong attack like a rest or giant punch
- Both bumpers and the triangular prisms are hard to keep track of, especially when on the lower part of the stage
- No ledges = every character's recovery is nerfed. low tiers' recoveries are nerfed drastically (i.e. Ness and DK)
CONGO JUNGLE:
- Rotating platforms create asymmetry
- Barrel is a stage hazard that more often than not rewards players based on luck rather than skill
- Stage is dark and dark palettes cannot be used. Players who use dark palettes are forced to switch and may be psychologically nerfed
- Barrel can be kept tracked of by observing the movement of the rotating platforms; when the rotating platforms are horizontally aligned, the barrel is at either end of the stage; when they are vertically aligned, the barrel is at the center of the stage. The first scenario creates ambiguity because there is no way to know which of the two sides the barrel is located.
This is why YOU want a symmetrical stage:
2. LOW TIERS ARE BETTER ON DREAMLANDPlayer A and player B have very similar levels of fighting potential
Player A = lvl 50 fighting potential
Player B = lvl 55 fighting potential
Fighting on even grounds, Player B beats player A.
Player A gets an advantage by fighting on a specific part of the stage and by doing so he gains 10 levels of fighting potential. Relatively this is equivalent to saying: "Player B gets an advantage by fighting on any other part of the map"
By fighting on grounds that benefit player A, player A beats Player B. Fighting on any other grounds benefits player B as he would beat player A.
It makes sense that player A would only want to fight on the part of the stage that increases his potential and never leave it. It also makes sense that player B wouldn't want to approach player A in the area that benefits player A. This creates a stalemate that is neither player's fault as neither player should be forced to approach the other player at a disadvantage and you cannot arbitrarily say that one player should have more precedence in approaching over the other player.
(counterargument to having more stage variety with PC/CJ)
Prioritizing stage variety over character variety is NOT something you want. Low tiers (and all characters actually) are better on Dreamland.
Here are some techniques many low tiers rely upon, that they cannot use as effectively on other stages:
*Samus:
-can use upB to escape pressure and land on platform / ledge cancel
- can platform tech chase with DAir on all platforms
- can use bomb to edgeguard and grab the ledge (which cannot be done on PC due to the lack of ledges nor on CJ due to the semi-soft stage, barrel also reduces effectiveness)
*Luigi:
-perfect land upB from ground to top platform
-platforms can be used to regain jumps and continue combos
-easier edge DI'ing (no ledges on PC + no DI'able ground/wall)
*Link: (arguably better on PC but not worth the trouble)
-perfect land on side platforms with double jump
-can ledge cancel upB on platforms
*Ness: (he sucks ass EVERYWHERE, especially stages that aren't Dreamland)
-can platform techchase with dair
-can sweetspot ledges with much more ease (can't even grab a ledge on PC)
*DK:
-can upair combo with side platforms
-upB to escape pressure is harder to punish thanks to platforms and ledges
*Jigglypuff (not really a low tier but HEY)
-rest kills are more likely due to no bumper / PC triangles
-platforms can be used to regain jumps and continue combos.
now VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ty.
P.S. you can only vote for one option
bonus: kerokeroppi changing his mind
gentleman
i'd like to make a public statement
i've been thinking long and hard about this all day
the truth is that i've been playing a LOT of peaches and congo recently
i thoroughly enjoy both of those stages and like the way i perform on them
not only with my high tiers, but with some of my mid and low tiers as well
i really do think this idea that pika and kirby are the only playable characters on peaches and congo is an absurd and ignorant one
and i think that with a little more practice, everybody would enjoy those stages a bit more
the only characters that truly suffer on peaches and congo are characters that nobody really plays anyway
so why should we ban 2/3 of the legal stages for character mains that don't exist?
we should be focusing on the players that do exist
they're the ones that matter
but then i thought about cobr
and firo
and all of these other players that use low tier characters in tournament
do they not matter?
they've committed hundreds of hours into mastering a character that can easily be counter picked to and beaten at peaches and congo
is that right?
like i said, there aren't a lot of these players
and that's a damn shame
but i understand why now
it is because we've allowed a ruleset that punishes these players, that more of these players do not exist
i'm not saying that the banning of peaches and congo will bring in this influx of dk, ness, samus, and link mains
and whatever changes we do see will certainly not happen over night
but there's no denying that players would be more encouraged to play these characters in a DL only ruleset
a ruleset where they can't be easily counter picked
a ruleset where everybody gets to play on a stage that's good for them
this game is extremely balanced
we shouldn't be cutting anybody out
if every character got pushed to their absolute limits on a good and balanced stage like DL
i really think that the metagame would transform into something truly beautiful
i see now that a DL only ruleset is a huge step in the right direction for this game's future
it is for this reason that i am officially changing my stance from anti DL only to pro DL only
that is all
pls feel free to contact me with questions and concerns
thank you
- kero the great
#adreamlandcumtrue
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