Guide Drastic Improvement

[MasterShake]

wether i'm pichu or not makes no difference.

You're right, you being pichu doesn't make the difference. However, the characters that your friends play make the difference. It's entirely possible that you are improving faster than them. But as both of you improve at the same time, the tier advantages will start to come into play, making pichu look like he deserves his spot on the list. He doesn't have the proper tools to combat the higher tiers at relatively high levels of play. It doesn't mean you're bad, just that things are turning out the way the tier list predicts.

 

[DerfMidWest]

well no... They 4 stocked me with every character in the game...

 

[kevo]

getting ***** is the best part about this game

I started "seriously" playing Melee around 10 months ago, and I think I lose at least 5-10 matches for each match I win. I find people who are better than me and play them. Yeah, losing gets old, but I feel like I'm learning so much. The next time I play them, I get 3-stocked instead of 4-stocked, and it inspires me to get better. It sure takes the edge out of those countless hours of mundane tech-skill practice.

 

[Deleted member]

getting ***** instead of ****** people left and right with no effort involved

yeah ill get ***** anyday

 

[Strong Badam]

the game is much more interesting when you are constantly reminded that you have much to work on & learn.

 

[Battlecow]

wether i'm pichu or not makes no difference. pichu is my best character anyways. with pichu i can at least get some random gimp every once in awhile.

Pichu is a ****ty character and you will have it 100x harder beating your friends if you stick with him. You lose with other characters because you don't put effort into them.

Tires exits.

 

[Van.]

tldr;

bust out the cheese-its

but srsly, great read. Especially about sticking with one character. That is definently the hardest of everything in this guide. Most people just don't have the heart to do it.

 

[Deleted member]

i'm not nearly done with it yet, but i have something else to deal with until tomorrow night. i'll get back to it over the next few days.

 

[Varist]

Anyone who isn't playing Fox is Bruce?

Anyone who isn't playing Fox is Bruce.

 

[Winston]

I really liked it overall, except the "bad players" section; I think its important to remember that improvement is so radical in this game that the player you call terrible now could eventually grow to be the best player in the world...I read PP say once that you should always appreciate everyone's take on the game, and try to learn off that.

I would guess that if there was data on such things, it would be fairly reliable to classify how good someone ends up being by their improvement curve in their first year or two of playing competitively.

I really don't think "anybody could be come the next top-level player", not because of what people traditionally think of as talent, but because of all of the factors that he mentioned in his post. Almost all of them have to go right for someone to have the chance to.

I certainly don't think I'll ever be a truly good player, for example

But thats fine. I understand that after going to tournaments for so long the bad players who never amounted to anything can blend together, so their importance to personal improvement can be forgotten. My bigger issue is the title. I don't know why you named it "drastic improvement" when, in reality, even with the greatest discipline and adherence to these policies, growth in skill is super gradual. Or, more accurately, there is so much to learn in this game that becoming truly great takes years, or as I prefer to measure it many hours....you can't expect to be as good as the greats with a small fraction of their total playtime. It simply isn't realistic.

I don't think his "drastic improvement" is referring to improvement over a really short time. One of his most important points was that you have to play an absurd amount. I see the piece as explaining what you need to do to EVER improve by a significant amount. I'm sure there are plenty of players who have played for as long as all the household name players, and yet are nowhere near their level.

It's a lot easier to spend a lot of time on the game than to spend that time well.

edit: oh, I forgot to say, I really enjoyed reading this. Quality writing, in addition to the content

 

[DerfMidWest]

nyeh, other characters are no funz. And I do put a lot of effort into other characters i've picked up.
Besides, whats the point in learning a character if I have no desire to use them? I want to be a pichu player, not just another fox or falco player, there is nothing special about that, or anything fun. Winning with them isn't rewarding either. If gimpyfish could do it with bowser, or Vman with yoshi, or Taj with Mewtwo, why can't I do it with Pichu? If i'm going to get good with any character, I'd prefer that it be pichu.

 

[Deleted member]

I just saw this:

I really liked it overall, except the "bad players" section; I think its important to remember that improvement is so radical in this game that the player you call terrible now could eventually grow to be the best player in the world...I read PP say once that you should always appreciate everyone's take on the game, and try to learn off that.

But thats fine. I understand that after going to tournaments for so long the bad players who never amounted to anything can blend together, so their importance to personal improvement can be forgotten. My bigger issue is the title. I don't know why you named it "drastic improvement" when, in reality, even with the greatest discipline and adherence to these policies, growth in skill is super gradual. Or, more accurately, there is so much to learn in this game that becoming truly great takes years, or as I prefer to measure it many hours....you can't expect to be as good as the greats with a small fraction of their total playtime. It simply isn't realistic.

I talk to Kevin about smash theory pretty hardcore about every 2 or 3 days. Kevin has this thing he does where he gives respect to anyone and he's a class act, but he very clearly doesn't appreciate everyone else's take on the game or he would imitate them. It's very clearly the other way around, Kevin does his own hard work, and other people copy him.

If you do my way, I absolutely promise that you WILL reach your maximum potential in less than a year. At the absolute most it should take you a year and a half to be a world class player if you are capable of it. If you have been playing longer than that, you probably don't have it in you. Don't feel bad, almost no one does. But yeah, 18 months is the high end of time investment to go from not playing at all to tier 1 player skill. I think about a year is the low end.

If you know how to take in information, you will learn much faster. Not only is it realistic, it's probable. Growth in skill is directly correlated to your skill at growth. Like any skill, it can be practiced and perfected.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hm, it took me about 2-2.5 years to do really well(2nd) at RoM2, and even then I probably wasn't tier 1 or whatever, though I did exceptionally well that tournament for my first national so meh.

Edit: I figured I was kinda slow though, but I never really watched anyone else improve so I'm not sure what an average rate of legitimate improvement is.

 

[The Star King]

Lol, what is your 18 months number based off of?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I would guess that if there was data on such things, it would be fairly reliable to classify how good someone ends up being by their improvement curve in their first year or two of playing competitively.

I don't think so. Based on my observations, everyone has their own journey. No two stories are alike. People improve at different paces.

A player who has a tough time going from low to mid level sometimes finds that going from mid to high isn't as challenging. Similarly, a player who gets to mid level really quickly might stay there for years. I really doubt the journeys of Peepee, Mango, Armada, etc are very much alike.

I'm sure there are plenty of players who have played for as long as all the household name players, and yet are nowhere near their level.

Really? I can't think of any.

The most experienced players are all clumped at the top.

If you do my way, I absolutely promise that you WILL reach your maximum potential in less than a year. At the absolute most it should take you a year and a half to be a world class player if you are capable of it. If you have been playing longer than that, you probably don't have it in you. Don't feel bad, almost no one does. But yeah, 18 months is the high end of time investment to go from not playing at all to tier 1 player skill. I think about a year is the low end.

...really?

I don't think anyone has ever done it in 1 year. Nowadays most players take a solid 2.5-3 years to even make bracket, let alone reach tier 1 skill level.

To do it in 1 year that'd mean they'd have to become tier 1 by their 2nd or 3rd national...

Growth in skill is directly correlated to your skill at growth. Like any skill, it can be practiced and perfected.

I like this line.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm kinda digging this one character only thing. I've noticed obviously the more time you put into a character, the more mental notes you can create for yourself. I think when you already learned the lessons of a top player then you can use those lessons into another character to learn him twice or more as fast. For example, I'm trying to learn Falco right now and I'm putting a lot of time into him. Everytime I make a mistake, I nod and try to make a mental note to not do this mistake again and it very quickly goes away than I remember in my beginning days. I don't know if it's because of Ganon that I can't manage to win really big tournaments or if there's room for even more improvements but honestly I'm running out of ideas to try to be creative. I mean nearly relying on luck and tricks to win is not very good and someone that knows all these tricks obviously will get me owned pretty badly so I have to switch it up somehow..

I feel as though you really need to play a lot of one character to learn all the options that he has because if you play multiple characters at once, I feel that you won't know all the good defensive or offensive options / the little things that can make a difference between life and death. I don't know if anyone else feels that way but I'm someone that definitely requires a lot of practice to understand things because I'm not able to simply think of good ways to level up a character.. or like think creatively.. or something I don't know how to explain this.. Like I really need to sit down and play one character for 8 hours straight and not choose anyone else.. if I do then I don't learn much for some reason lol.

 

[Winston]

I don't think so. Based on my observations, everyone has their own journey. No two stories are alike. People improve at different paces.

A player who has a tough time going from low to mid level sometimes finds that going from mid to high isn't as challenging. Similarly, a player who gets to mid level really quickly might stay there for years. I really doubt the journeys of Peepee, Mango, Armada, etc are very much alike.

I think they would be different enough from average players that you could at least say they would be more likely to get good. Pure speculation, but I just think it's likely that statistics could give some degree of predictive power for things like this.

Really? I can't think of any.

The most experienced players are all clumped at the top.

how about... like.... everyone in our region? heh

...really?

I don't think anyone has ever done it in 1 year. Nowadays most players take a solid 2.5-3 years to even make bracket, let alone reach tier 1 skill level.

I think 1 year is possible if absolutely everything goes right. I agree that it's incredibly unlikely to happen.

Didn't KDJ get good super fast though? And I've heard Leffen has been playing for < 2 years

 

[Prince_Abu]

nyeh, other characters are no funz. And I do put a lot of effort into other characters i've picked up.
Besides, whats the point in learning a character if I have no desire to use them? I want to be a pichu player, not just another fox or falco player, there is nothing special about that, or anything fun. Winning with them isn't rewarding either. If gimpyfish could do it with bowser, or Vman with yoshi, or Taj with Mewtwo, why can't I do it with Pichu? If i'm going to get good with any character, I'd prefer that it be pichu.

at least play pikachu then

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

how about... like.... everyone in our region? heh

No? Our region is pretty much perfectly ranked based on hours played.

If you mean to compare our region to others, well obviously thats not fair because you can only be as good as the people around you help you to be; I don't mean to suggest that playtime is the only variable in player growth, but that its the most significant. But even if you do compare our region with others, I'm not sure that there is much exception to be made; does Chillin really have more hours than Peepee, considering Chillin's long hiatuses and how constantly Peepee has been playing in the time hes been active? I'm not sure, but overall, just about everyone considered to be above our region's top players at least have comparable play times to them.

Experience matters with this game. A lot.

Didn't KDJ get good super fast though? And I've heard Leffen has been playing for < 2 years

I don't remember exactly how long it was for KDJ, but he was definitely quick. Though, it must be said that the ETA for greatness gets larger and larger the better the playerbase gets; it took less time to get good in 05 than it would now.

Thats why I was shocked when I first heard how recently Leffen started playing. Being able to make bracket and be a strong contender in Europe so quickly is an incredible accomplishment. I'd be interested to hear from him as to how he did it.

 

[Paju]

AFAIK Leffen has played brawl on high level before he started playing melee and I think that definetly helps to improve faster. But it's still mad impressive how fast he has improved; I started playing melee competively only a bit later than him and I'm nowhere as good as he is lol.

 

[Winston]

No? Our region is pretty much perfectly ranked based on hours played.

But even if you do compare our region with others, I'm not sure that there is much exception to be made; does Chillin really have more hours than Peepee, considering Chillin's long hiatuses and how constantly Peepee has been playing in the time hes been active? I'm not sure, but overall, just about everyone considered to be above our region's top players at least have comparable play times to them.

Experience matters with this game. A lot.

Yeah, I should have clarified that I meant time in terms of years played, not hours spent. I mean, it seems like one of your main points of skepticism is that a player can get really good in 1-2 years.

If you mean to compare our region to others, well obviously thats not fair because you can only be as good as the people around you help you to be; I don't mean to suggest that playtime is the only variable in player growth, but that its the most significant.

Aren't M2K, Armada, and especially PP all major exceptions to this?

M2K was able to play good players but he claims he made most of his improvement playing by himself. He is a special case, sure.

I don't know anything about Armada's beginnings, so citing him here is speculation, but it seems like he's so far beyond everyone else around him in level.

PP's region is no better than ours; I think that's pretty clear.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I improved playing with Twitch for the most part. I've Jihad it/LoZR/OOS I only got to play once a month or so(much less for OOS but it helped my game way more), so that could be taken into consideration as well.

I suppose I technically improved a fair amount overall just thinking about the game a ton and how to do everything/trick people, but I'm not sure if that counts for this discussion.



Edit: Yeah NC needs a lot of work LOL

 

[strawhats]

AFAIK Leffen has played brawl on high level before he started playing melee and I think that definetly helps to improve faster. But it's still mad impressive how fast he has improved; I started playing melee competively only a bit later than him and I'm nowhere as good as he is lol.

Is leffen as good/better than Calle W currently? Cause I don't want to use leffen as a barometer for how well Calle W would do in the U.S.

 

[Strong Badam]

why is armada an exception? he's been playing since 2005, Amsah, Zgetto, Remen, Ice, Calle W, etc. are all really good and Strawhat Dahaen/Overtriforce were before they retired.

 

[Winston]

Not an exception in terms of years spent, but the idea that you can only get as good as the players around you help you be.

I mean, how often did he play with all the best players in Europe as he was getting to be the best?

Besides, I think he was approaching top level in 2007. He may not have "reached his full potential in a year", but that's a far faster improvement than average.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yeah, I should have clarified that I meant time in terms of years played, not hours spent. I mean, it seems like one of your main points of skepticism is that a player can get really good in 1-2 years.

Nah, I value playtime (hours) much more. Years played is a misleading statistic.

Aren't M2K, Armada, and especially PP all major exceptions to this?

M2K was able to play good players but he claims he made most of his improvement playing by himself. He is a special case, sure.

I don't know anything about Armada's beginnings, so citing him here is speculation, but it seems like he's so far beyond everyone else around him in level.

PP's region is no better than ours; I think that's pretty clear.

Well, their situations may not have been ideal, but I think it is undeniable that they received invaluable help from their fellow smashers along the way. What kind of player would PP be without his brother's help? Or Armada without his family's? M2K has no shortage of friends either.

In some ways they were disadvantaged because of their environment -- not every player has the luxury of living in Cali or NY -- but that doesn't take away the help they did receive. I don't mean to imply that people in less-than-ideal situations can't grow to be great players, just that you need friends to succeed in this game.

Thats maybe my favorite aspect of smash in fact; without online play we depend on each other so much more. I'm as good as I am from playing people like you, Winston, and you the same for me. I don't think a self-serving smasher can go very far, so in the end I think Umbreon's most salient point was number 7: make friends.

That point has been easy for you and me, but for many that is their downfall. Either because they aren't any fun to hang out with, they live in an extremely inactive area (think Montana), or because they want to do everything themselves. Its an aspect of success I don't think is talked about enough; I think its sad to see new players be so hard on themselves at their first few tournaments when, really, the most important thing about the beginning weeks is making contacts, not performing in tournament. A noob alone will likely stay a noob longer than a noob with friends, assuming all other factors equal (determination, talent, etc).

 

[Paju]

Is leffen as good/better than Calle W currently? Cause I don't want to use leffen as a barometer for how well Calle W would do in the U.S.

I would say leffen is better. The latest tournament results also support this even though Calle W hasn't been taking things so seriously lately unless I'm mistaken.

 

[DerfMidWest]

at least play pikachu then

I tried pika for awhile... he's too fat. And he irritates me cuz i sometimes try to use him like pichu, but he's too fat and laggy to be pichu.

 

[gm jack]

That point has been easy for you and me, but for many that is their downfall. Either because they aren't any fun to hang out with, they live in an extremely inactive area (think Montana), or because they want to do everything themselves. Its an aspect of success I don't think is talked about enough; I think its sad to see new players be so hard on themselves at their first few tournaments when, really, the most important thing about the beginning weeks is making contacts, not performing in tournament. A noob alone will likely stay a noob longer than a noob with friends, assuming all other factors equal (determination, talent, etc).

This I suspect will be the limiting factor for most people. While some people can improve in the absence of players of their level (indeed, to become the best, by default you have to be better than everyone you can play), but you need practice partners who are going to push you and point out what you can improve.

 

[leffen]

Thanks for the kind words guys, I appreciate it

I did play brawl, but not on a "high" level. It was WIFI and I had no main lol. I've been playing melee for close to 2 years now and I'm honestly, not satisfied with my progress.

As for Calle W he has been playing and he is saying that he is really motivated atm, but who knows.
Calle W is by the way, only the 5th best player in sweden atm and Pepito is very close to taking that spot. The sweden top is Armada, Me, Hack, IVP and then finally Calle W.
I dont know how you can hold my placement as a bar for how well others will do, both me and him could certainly place higher imo but honestly, stop hyping him up that much >_>.

@Improving:
I think experience is overrated, and a lot of people get stuck because of their experience hindering their improvement. I recently switched to Fox just 2 weeks ago and won a tournament yesterday by a much bigger margin than I'd have done with Falco ( 6-0 vs Hack and 4+3 stocked Randomness who I lost to at BEAST2).
This is just my version though, maybe it will backlash, maybe it won't.
I know a lot of people that would benefit from sticking to one character but theres also people who gain a lot on playing different characters.



Improving fast is so much harder outside of the US since there are a lack of players and there really aren't that many tournaments. The hardest part about improving for me was getting myself motivated and positive when we have a ****load of people that complain about the game, john and aren't really motivated to improve.

 

[Niko45]

All of the top players now have been playing since at least 07, if not way way earlier than that. I genuinely think logging years playing the game is a huge factor. Raw hours playing certainly help a ton too.

I'm just going to go ahead and say that someone going from not wavedashing and L cancelling to becoming a top player within 1 year is absolutely impossible.

I'd say people can typically get to top level if they work hard and are putting in 2-3 years, leaning towards 3 in almost all cases.

The competition you get to face regularly is certainly a factor but I think if you look at Melee's history there are tons of examples of single players standing out from less impressive regions (Darkrain, PP, Armada) and that this is less critical than the fact that you simply need to put a lot of time (not only in gameplay) into the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

1 year is way too short.

 

[leffen]

1 hour manageable if you have experience from brawl / other fighting games ;o

But yeah, its way harder to get to the top now than it was before since everyone has been playing for so long and the metagame is more advanced.

 

[stelzig]

Not an exception in terms of years spent, but the idea that you can only get as good as the players around you help you be.

I mean, how often did he play with all the best players in Europe as he was getting to be the best?

Besides, I think he was approaching top level in 2007. He may not have "reached his full potential in a year", but that's a far faster improvement than average.

Just FYI, Sweden as a country has always been top2 in eruope. So has the netherlands where amsah is from

At least I remember these countries as the best in europe when I started following smash too... Which is a long time ago, lol.

 

[Winston]

1 year is way too short.

What if it was 1 year playing at least weekly with people who were good at helping you improve both in theory and in practice?

Not going to happen like that of course, but I'm wondering if you are saying that you need some amount of absolute time to let concepts marinate in your head, and that you can't condense the playing time down to a year and get the same returns from it.

Or if it's just that all the circumstances are too unlikely to work out together

 

[ShroudedOne]

Just FYI, Sweden as a country has always been top2 in eruope. So has the netherlands where amsah is from

At least I remember these countries as the best in europe when I started following smash too... Which is a long time ago, lol.

I was reading through the posts, and saw yours, and then I was like, "Why does my name appear in his sig?" I believe I remember saying that, but that's kinda funny. I've never been quoted in a sig before.

Personally, I think that the higher your natural talent is for the game, the quicker you will improve, provided you're not in an absolutely terrible region. Natural talent (I can't think of anything better to call it) does come into play when determining who will become good, and who will become great. Then, the external factors (community, practice time, ability to play) come into play. Of course, you have to want it really badly, too.

 

[stelzig]

It's not so much the quote really,but the entire conversation between navn, kage, and sinji. I read it again today myself after seeing the quote

(it's also funny because navn is definetly one of the more talented players in Denmark... And most stuff where sinji is involved tends to get hillarious)

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've noticed that his presence adds a fair amount of hilarity to most things, yes.

 

[Sinji]

Different players have different paces in learning.

The top players have been on the site for at least 4-5 years.

But armada joined 2010. o_o

 

[Winston]

Just FYI, Sweden as a country has always been top2 in eruope. So has the netherlands where amsah is from

At least I remember these countries as the best in europe when I started following smash too... Which is a long time ago, lol.

it's true that I'm not very familiar with Europe's smash history. Who would you say were the ones who played with Armada often as he was rising, then? At the very least I don't think its any of the people Strong Bad named.