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Draft Banning in Smash 4

Should Smash 4 have Draft Banning?


  • Total voters
    141

GeZ

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Target banning isn't an issue when players are flexible,
It's not about flexibility. Fighting games at a high level make having one trained main really important. It's not like at the more casual level. You need to grasp that maining a character is different from being proficient in a character, and telling people to main more than one character so flippantly is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. It's a very difficult thing that you only see at the top level, so stop suggesting it like "if people just picked up another character-".

Comparing that learning to learning a character in DOTA or TF2 wrong. Fighting game mains demand much more understanding.
 
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Epok

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Variety should be inherently present in the game itself, not arbitrarily forced through random draft bans. This is a fighting game first and foremost. If I wanted to play just Dr. Mario and take him as high as possible as a low tier character, why should I not be able to?

Forcing variety is not only unhealthy for the game itself but it's also unhealthy to the PLAYERS themselves, you know, the most important part?

Even further, what are outsiders going to think of this? We already have a large stage striking system and a stage list we have to go to, why should we add even more to that? If we want Smash to be accessible, shouldn't it MOSTLY make sense?

I'm not sure if the concept of forcing variety in characters is a bad thing. I think that is something that should be present already. We are always talking about player needing to be able to adapt. Especially when were are talking about changes between smash games. Like I said before, most of the best players have at least 2 characters that they can pull out to counter other characters with a bad match up or if their main is being countered by the players 1st pick.

So I guess we can ask the question what is the difference between someone going out of the way to counter someone with a character pick, or a ban?

They are both ways of choosing a way to gain the upper hand in a match. I guess the big difference is with countering with characters you still can play against the odds and that's probably just as fun as it could be frustrating based on the match up.

Actually another side question: Why is it decided it's fair to ban stages?
 
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T0MMY

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My philosophy is to "play the game"
I'd sooner I get better than try to limit my opponents.

Some kind of "draft" event could be run as a side event though, but any out-of-game rulings need to stay far away from competitive events.
 

MegaMissingno

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Actually another side question: Why is it decided it's fair to ban stages?
Because this game is full of bat**** stupid stages that are horrible from a competitive standpoint. You really want to play on Palutena's Temple and Pac-Land?

And more importantly, nobody mains a stage. They do main characters.
 

Raijinken

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It's not about flexibility. Fighting games at a high level make having one trained main really important. It's not like at the more casual level. You need to grasp that maining a character is different from being proficient in a character, and telling people to main more than one character so flippantly is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. It's a very difficult thing that you only see at the top level, so stop suggesting it like "if people just picked up another character-".

Comparing that learning to learning a character in DOTA or TF2 wrong. Fighting game mains demand much more understanding.
Well at the very least, this explains why so many players are stubbornly opposed to balance patches. Since when that happens, they literally get no choice but to adapt their play, or quit and whine about their time invested.
 

Senliten

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Actually another side question: Why is it decided it's fair to ban stages?
Usually stages are banned due to the aspect of possible stage hazards that would make the game end up being rng or one sided based. Interesting example would be wario ware from brawl, mini games during a fight > pass the mini game > get a buff or invincibility for a few seconds.

If you mean stage striking, well, cause no one wants to play FD or BF every bloody match ofc. *eyerolls*

Anyways, just gonna echo the same thing others have said bout this draft. It's silly, unwarranted, and it takes more time to work on two characters. Than instead to take one character, shape it into your own image, learn everything per matchup (which by the way, we have a lot more this time to learn), learn your own characters flaws weakness and work with it, and finally winning in perhaps some of the most hypest one sided match-ups possible.

Banning a character that someone mains just makes it easy wins for the other. Stupid concept for competition when it's 1v1. 2v2 can be debated, but singles.... no thanks.
 
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Epok

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Because this game is full of bat**** stupid stages that are horrible from a competitive standpoint. You really want to play on Palutena's Temple and Pac-Land?

And more importantly, nobody mains a stage. They do main characters.

LOL whoa calm please. My bad I should have been more specific. I meant stage striking with in the contents of the legal stages.
 

GeZ

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Well at the very least, this explains why so many players are stubbornly opposed to balance patches. Since when that happens, they literally get no choice but to adapt their play, or quit and whine about their time invested.
You're not doing yourself any favors saying something like this man.

People are opposed to frequent balance changes because the meta always needs more time to settle. Melees still shaking up and changing, as the low tier characters have more and more **** unveiled.

When a game gets balanced too often, and especially in regards to fan demand, the balance goes to hell and any character potential that is not apparent is shuffled around.

It makes investing and digging into a character harder, and impermanent.

People aren't just "quitting and whining", they're legitimately discouraged by the time and effort they've put into a character just so that thing they found could get removed, and the muscle memory they developed to change, and the meta they familiarized themselves to shuffle up.
 

Raijinken

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You're not doing yourself any favors saying something like this man.

People are opposed to frequent balance changes because the meta always needs more time to settle. Melees still shaking up and changing, as the low tier characters have more and more **** unveiled.

When a game gets balanced too often, and especially in regards to fan demand, the balance goes to hell and any character potential that is not apparent is shuffled around.

It makes investing and digging into a character harder, and impermanent.

People aren't just "quitting and whining", they're legitimately discouraged by the time and effort they've put into a character just so that thing they found could get removed, and the muscle memory they developed to change, and the meta they familiarized themselves to shuffle up.
I'm not sure what your PC gaming experience is, so I'm going to assume you're unfamiliar with the frequency of patching in those games, which ranges from weekly to every few months.

Even in major competitive ones, such as Dota and League, patches work by fixing visible issues. If something later seems to not be an issue (for instance, in Smash terms, if it's decided later that Little Mac really needed his 30 damage jab combo), then depending on the developer's perspective, things can be reverted. Anything that can change one way can change back if it was overdone.

This is done, partially, to keep the spectator scene interested. Dota's international this year was considered a bust by many, because the meta played out so that the final match ended before a tower was taken, compared to last year's back and forth frantic base-racing shenanigans. No one wants to watch a boring match. And, with credit given to the degree that skilled play keeps some games interesting, a lack of change in the "top level" makes things very boring to spectate. That's why my friends and I no longer watch Melee, and it's a part of why no one watches Brawl. It's approximately the same thing every time, because in an unchanging game, strategy can only account so much for inherent or discovered superiority (And maybe because it's because I stopped watching, but I've not noticed any shifts in Melee in my occasional spectating aside from toward more Fox and Falco). Especially in a game that is targeted equal parts towards competitive and party settings (or perhaps moreso towards the party), it is outright discouraging to players who would otherwise love to compete, when they find that their character is the worst and has been for a decade or better.

Nothing in the last patch indicates, at least to me as an English Smash player (I don't practice Japanese by sitting around on Smash forums trying to decipher kanji), that the balance patch was done based on fan demand. We'll see if this holds in future patches, but it looks to me like Nandai/Sakurai observed matches, both tournaments and from data collected beyond our sight, and made their adjustments. A lot of it worked, and a lot of it made sense. Some didn't, but there's always the future to look toward.

And personally, I'm all for pouring one's efforts into learning a character. But if a given player is determined to maintain status quo at the expense of balance, then I, personally, can't respect that dedication. It comes at the expense of thousands of other players, who would love for even a fleeting chance at winning with their own mains.

It doesn't make sense to respect the invested time of a handful of players at the expense of the rest. I'm fully aware of the lack of total balance in virtually every game that exists, but while the game is likely to change, there really is no choice but to adapt to that change or invest your time playing a game that doesn't change. There are plenty of those around.

Then again, most of these frequently-rebalanced games are far larger and more successful esports than Smash is. What works for one may not work for the other. I think it's worth a shot.
 
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GeZ

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I've played both those games.

The balance is... debatable for those games. The flavor of the month trends, and changes based on things of that nature, aren't really good balancing mentality. Even past that, fighting games are entirely different.

Melee is unchanging but the competition in that is super varried, which is cool.

How is that considerably maintaining status quo at the sacrifice of balance? It's never been considered an issue for fighting games ever.

SF3 3rd strike is considered one of the best designed fighting games, and has Yun play the role of metaknight, by being in his own top tier. It's still a great freaking game. Balance isn't chief, design is. This is kind of unrelated, but sacrificing high level play for balance is a lame idea.

This conversation is spinning out way more than was necessary to begin with.

It's not a good idea. It won't get taken in. It's just another thing that will be discussed on smashboards as "a good idea" by a fringe group and never be implemented.
 

Raijinken

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It's just another thing that will be discussed on smashboards as "a good idea" by a fringe group and never be implemented.
Completely true. Hopefully we'll reach a balanced state and there won't be a reason to consider it again.

I've played both those games.

The balance is... debatable for those games. The flavor of the month trends, and changes based on things of that nature, aren't really good balancing mentality. Even past that, fighting games are entirely different.
One issue with a flavor of the month is that it will quickly become the flavor of the year, and of the game, unless someone invests a lot of time and effort into specifically countering the perceived issue. Can't argue that fighting games aren't different, but I would certainly give this sort of iterative balance a better review than 13 years of Fox being supreme.
 
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Tattles

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So I have to main 2 characters just to play 1 character? Hindering my skill, my performance, and my opponent; to prove who's better at playing with a handicap. Why would I ever put time into mastering a character, when in the end it only matters than i'm decent with 2.

And the poll options make it seem like this isn't that big of a deal, or that the people saying no simply don't care; which is completely false. Anyone against this is heavily against this, not just "nah". Extremely poor and bias wording.
 
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Jiggly

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And the poll options make it seem like this isn't that big of a deal, or that the people saying no simply don't care; which is completely false. Anyone against this is heavily against this, not just "nah". Extremely poor and bias wording.
Are you seriously critiquing my wording for yes and no? I just stylized it a bit, no biased views involved. I would've typed it the same way even if I was against the idea. That's just the way I say Shizz :p
 

MuraRengan

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I didn't even read the post because as soon as I read the title I realized that this was a great idea. I support this if the meta becomes heavily favorable to a limited selection of the cast.

I have always liked the idea of people having to learn more than one character, makes the game more interesting, and I think it makes players better in the long run.
 
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Myran

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I didn't even read the post because as soon as I read the title I realized that this was a great idea. I support this if the meta becomes heavily favorable to a limited selection of the cast.

I have always liked the idea of people having to learn more than one character, makes the game more interesting, and I think it makes players better in the long run.
Doesn't really seem fair to make people learn more than one character. I invest all my time into Olimar, because I enjoy playing him the most. Making me pick up a secondary, and have it play on the same level would most likely turn me off from tournaments.
 

MuraRengan

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Doesn't really seem fair to make people learn more than one character. I invest all my time into Olimar, because I enjoy playing him the most. Making me pick up a secondary, and have it play on the same level would most likely turn me off from tournaments.
Fair enough. People shouldn't HAVE to learn more than one character, but in the long run, learning more than one character tends to be beneficial. The best players have been so far ones that understand the meta conceptually enough to be able to recognize when economical to counterpick, rather than fight a difficult matchup. Armada's young link is the perfect example of that.

It's not fair to force people to learn a different characters, but I guarantee you that learning different characters makes you a better player.
 

Myran

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Fair enough. People shouldn't HAVE to learn more than one character, but in the long run, learning more than one character tends to be beneficial. The best players have been so far ones that understand the meta conceptually enough to be able to recognize when economical to counterpick, rather than fight a difficult matchup. Armada's young link is the perfect example of that.

It's not fair to force people to learn a different characters, but I guarantee you that learning different characters makes you a better player.
I have to disagree. I feel that if I can learn one character to his fullest I can find a work around for every MU even if that means I have to play better. I prefer to solely focus on one as well so that I don't have to spread my time learning multiple characters.
 

RESET Vao

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This isn't League of Legends, this is somewhat of a fighting game where people specialise in characters rather than a role which is just a bunch of right clicking and playing FOTM picks.
 

KlefkiHolder

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This is terrible. No offense, but my God do I think is bad. What's the point of neutering a player because they have a good character? Not everyone can take the time to master multiple characters, let alone the difficulty in mastering one. No no no no no. I do not support this at all.

Fair enough. People shouldn't HAVE to learn more than one character, but in the long run, learning more than one character tends to be beneficial. The best players have been so far ones that understand the meta conceptually enough to be able to recognize when economical to counterpick, rather than fight a difficult matchup. Armada's young link is the perfect example of that.

It's not fair to force people to learn a different characters, but I guarantee you that learning different characters makes you a better player.
I remember hearing on a MIOM podcast that Armada called his Young Link a gimmick that he was surprised lasted so long. I might be wrong, but the point stands.

Also, there is a VERY fine line between picking up a secondary to face a bad matchup on YOUR half and handicapping a player for being better on THEIR half.
 

MuraRengan

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This is terrible. No offense, but my God do I think is bad. What's the point of neutering a player because they have a good character? Not everyone can take the time to master multiple characters, let alone the difficulty in mastering one. No no no no no. I do not support this at all.
I bolded the key point in this statement. Saying you don't have time to learn a new character is an excuse. The best players are ones who play all day. Dedication to training is a key part of becoming good, and that means spending a lot of time in the game. If you're saying you don't have time to learn a new character, it's probably because you aren't making enough time.

Everything else in your post is fine.
 

Myran

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I play this game to much, but I do it to master Olimar. If I waste my time playing other characters I can't be refining the one I want.
 

MegaMissingno

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Fair enough. People shouldn't HAVE to learn more than one character, but in the long run, learning more than one character tends to be beneficial. The best players have been so far ones that understand the meta conceptually enough to be able to recognize when economical to counterpick, rather than fight a difficult matchup. Armada's young link is the perfect example of that.

It's not fair to force people to learn a different characters, but I guarantee you that learning different characters makes you a better player.
Yeah that's why Armada went 2 years undefeated with just Peach, Luffy won Evo 2014 USF4 with just Rose, Justin Wong won UMvC3 with just Wolverine/Storm/Akuma, etc.

No wait, what? History shows that character specialists take their games much further than people who spread their attention thin across a dozen characters.
 

Funen1

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Saying you don't have time to learn a new character is an excuse.
So is saying that you shouldn't need to learn a matchup for whichever character(s) you play. And that's exactly what this kind of system does for you. Myself and others have already mentioned how this is a bad kind of mindset to have toward one's own development as a player, but to have it institutionalized and standardized as part of Smash 4's ruleset? What would that say about the quality of this community?
 
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Blitzern

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IMO we should get 1 draft ban, and an option for a 2nd ban in return for not getting to strike a stage.
 

Blitzern

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I cannot see this being a thing, you have those people who play solely one character. If someones main, ends up getting banned, well they are kind of ****ed. It's a nice idea, but I feel like this is just too punishing for those people who play one character.
We should have a "Dave's Stupid Rule" type of thing regarding this. In between matches you have to ban someone else but it can't be who you most recently banned. If the set if tied 1-1 and its a best out of 3 set, then their should be no bans on that tie-breaker.
 

Gawain

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I think it's an interesting idea. I'd support experimenting with this if stuff isn't significantly changed next patch. It could be a fun thing to try out.
 

Blitzern

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I think it's an interesting idea. I'd support experimenting with this if stuff isn't significantly changed next patch. It could be a fun thing to try out.
New game, new meta. This needs more discussion though. Tell your friends! Tell your family! Tell your Amiiboooooosssss!!
 

Pyr

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Why?... In Mobas, this works because characters are simple, easy to master, (mechanics of the game take the most time) and perform similar roles. This is a fighting game. There has NEVER been a striking of a fighting game character in a set in the history of the Genre (that I'm aware of).

Wanna know why? Because it's ****ing ********. You can't ban at the beginning of a match. We don't ban a stage. We strike until 1 is left. What are you going to do round 2? Ban Diddy? No. You'll ban who they just played every ****ing time. Round 3? You'll either have the same ban, or ban who they used round 2.

Edit: If you don't ban that single character they are using, then what's the point of the ban? They just pick their character again.

What's the benefit? How does it promote positive game play? How does it not screw over lower-level players that only had the time to learn 1 character? How about higher level play where that applies?

This is the single worst idea I've seen for S4 so far. It provides no tactical items what-so-ever.
 
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Thinkaman

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I actually ran a character draft Brawl tourney once.

It was absolutely terrible and no one wanted to do it again.
 

MegaMissingno

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There has NEVER been a striking of a fighting game character in a set in the history of the Genre (that I'm aware of).
I can think of one example, UFGTX did it for Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3. Of course, that's a tag-team game, so people are already learning multiple characters anyway. And people were getting so damn sick of how degenerate the meta was getting with Zero May Cry, Morridoom, etc that UFGT wanted to try and do something to shake things up and see if they could inject some life into a dying game. It was pretty damn messy, as you can expect. Though it could be argued that it was still less messy than regular UMvC3!
 

Pyr

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I can think of one example, UFGTX did it for Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3. Of course, that's a tag-team game, so people are already learning multiple characters anyway. And people were getting so damn sick of how degenerate the meta was getting with Zero May Cry, Morridoom, etc that UFGT wanted to try and do something to shake things up and see if they could inject some life into a dying game. It was pretty damn messy, as you can expect. Though it could be argued that it was still less messy than regular UMvC3!
Oh wow. Did not know that. Thank's for letting me know. =D My experience with UMvC3 has been watching it at Evo, so I wasn't aware and stand corrected.

Still, for 1 on 1 fighters, still haven't heard of it or seen it.
 

chipndip

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Yeah, this is my main reason for wanting to test it and in the startup of the second game. This way, no matter what, you have the opportunity to get 1 game off of them with your actual main, then you can ban their main as they ban yours. But you're still ahead.
Then you're forced to have a pocket char that's as strong as your main at all times. That's just crazy talk, and some people that would make it farther in tournament play may not be able to because you banned the person they're strongest with. You're punishing people for learning their character and perfecting it, and THAT is bs.
 

Blazing Ambition

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It would ultimately lead to people being able to invest less time into their characters, as they'd now be required to maintain a stable of characters in order to handle draft bans AS WELL AS any unfavorable matchups..
However, learning matchups becomes a lot easier when you can just remove characters.
 

ATH_

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Then you're forced to have a pocket char that's as strong as your main at all times. That's just crazy talk, and some people that would make it farther in tournament play may not be able to because you banned the person they're strongest with. You're punishing people for learning their character and perfecting it, and THAT is bs.
Again, "Test" was the wording. I understand what you're saying completely. It was stated in the OP part that I made that you could potentially play your pocket in the first game, to bait them banning it. Then ban the counter to your main and pick your main. This doesn't solve everything, I know, but it's a solid strategy.
It mainly doesn't solve players who are known for playing a specific set of characters or singular character. Since people would know they are trying to bait a ban.
 

chipndip

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Again, "Test" was the wording. I understand what you're saying completely. It was stated in the OP part that I made that you could potentially play your pocket in the first game, to bait them banning it. Then ban the counter to your main and pick your main. This doesn't solve everything, I know, but it's a solid strategy.
It mainly doesn't solve players who are known for playing a specific set of characters or singular character. Since people would know they are trying to bait a ban.
Exactly. What if my opponent already knows I main Yoshi? Then it doesn't matter if I use Pit or not because Yoshi gets banned regardless. Besides, why should I have to pick something that's obviously not as strong as my main char for the sake of being able to use my main char at all?

Character striking doesn't have a place in fighting games because characters vary from each other by a huge margin. Unlike LoL or other mobas where this may be more common, playing a solid Marth is not even close to playing a solid Meta Knight, so being able to make up for not using your main character is that much harder and time consuming...and may or may not pay off in the end anyway. Besides, Sm4sh isn't nearly broken enough balance-wise to warrant this notion, and I'd rather avoid punishing people for leveling up their game with their character of choice.
 

ATH_

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Exactly. What if my opponent already knows I main Yoshi? Then it doesn't matter if I use Pit or not because Yoshi gets banned regardless. Besides, why should I have to pick something that's obviously not as strong as my main char for the sake of being able to use my main char at all?

Character striking doesn't have a place in fighting games because characters vary from each other by a huge margin. Unlike LoL or other mobas where this may be more common, playing a solid Marth is not even close to playing a solid Meta Knight, so being able to make up for not using your main character is that much harder and time consuming...and may or may not pay off in the end anyway. Besides, Sm4sh isn't nearly broken enough balance-wise to warrant this notion, and I'd rather avoid punishing people for leveling up their game with their character of choice.
Yeah, this is the biggest issue. Smash 4 is definitely well-balanced compared to other smash games, on top of the fact that patching for balance seems to be doing well.
The thing I like though is that a lot of characters have a similar character parallel. Some even have chracters that have the same hitboxes but different damage/knockback/gimmicks (such as Marth/Lucina). This allows you to pick up a similar character if you seriously prefer only having one playstyle.
There is a few characters who don't have parallels though, such as Olimar, Bowser, Megaman, and maybe even Greninja. For these characters it's tougher, specifically Olimar who has a very unique way of playing that some players are very used to.
Wanna know why? Because it's ****ing ********. You can't ban at the beginning of a match. We don't ban a stage. We strike until 1 is left. What are you going to do round 2? Ban Diddy? No. You'll ban who they just played every ****ing time. Round 3? You'll either have the same ban, or ban who they used round 2.
And to this post, I'd like to make it clear that the only bans occuring would be in game 2. Not in game 3. Not in game 1. During the startup of game 2, both players would ban one character. That's the only banning going on here. Or at least, would be going on during testing.

Again, for about the 4th time, I'll mention that I am neutral standing here. I do not think the cons outweight the pros, nor reversed. I simply am open to testing to see whether or not people are okay with it. And as well again, I do not think it will be allowed, however, it deserves testing so that there is hard evidence that it doesn't work.
 
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Pyr

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And to this post, I'd like to make it clear that the only bans occuring would be in game 2. Not in game 3. Not in game 1. During the startup of game 2, both players would ban one character. That's the only banning going on here. Or at least, would be going on during testing.

Again, for about the 4th time, I'll mention that I am neutral standing here. I do not think the cons outweight the pros, nor reversed. I simply am open to testing to see whether or not people are okay with it. And as well again, I do not think it will be allowed, however, it deserves testing so that there is hard evidence that it doesn't work.
That still begs the question: Why would you ban anything but what they just played? Unless you ban based on previous experience, you either a) ban a matchup or b) ban who they just played so you can have a guaranteed effect on the opponent.

It harms, or can harm, many players, for no real benefit, and can actually harm overall gameplay because we all must now main at least 2 characters, in addition to our pockets (not to speak on someone never learning a specific matchup and taking away from counterpicking characters). And for what? So, MAYBE, if another Metaknight appears, we can ban them out for the entire month that a character that dominate will be allowed to remain that dominant.

I know you're neutral, but this idea is literally so bad that testing would be a waste of a tournament day that can be spent... Anything else here.
 

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That still begs the question: Why would you ban anything but what they just played? Unless you ban based on previous experience, you either a) ban a matchup or b) ban who they just played so you can have a guaranteed effect on the opponent.

It harms, or can harm, many players, for no real benefit, and can actually harm overall gameplay because we all must now main at least 2 characters, in addition to our pockets (not to speak on someone never learning a specific matchup and taking away from counterpicking characters). And for what? So, MAYBE, if another Metaknight appears, we can ban them out for the entire month that a character that dominate will be allowed to remain that dominant.

I know you're neutral, but this idea is literally so bad that testing would be a waste of a tournament day that can be spent... Anything else here.
Oh, yes, it'd likely be a waste. However, Japan Time (the crew of people who came up with how it would work) are already planning to test it with their viewers. I plan to take part in it, and will share any experiences from myself related to it working or not working.

Also, let's say you win game 1. Then a solid ban would be to ban your biggest threat to either character you play, or just who you don't like going against in case they might play them. Of course, banning who they just played may bring out their actual main, which is something to think about. There's more strategy to this than it seems, however, that may not matter in some cases. If both players agree to be playing the same characters through all 3 games, they can just skip the draft banning.

When I heard of it, I thought it would make a solid thing for a newer player to get more used to the game quicker. Since they don't have to face your best, they can probably learn more by playing someone you don't know as well (If you're so good that they just get pummeled that is. In those cases, it's hard to learn anything really.)

However, it does not benefit the highers in the community that much, which I think is an issue.

Once this thread has matured and the "**** this" people who ONLY say that leave, I'll send the entire thread to Roger and Warchamp to see if they still will consider testing it.
 

Pyr

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Oh, yes, it'd likely be a waste. However, Japan Time (the crew of people who came up with how it would work) are already planning to test it with their viewers. I plan to take part in it, and will share any experiences from myself related to it working or not working.

Also, let's say you win game 1. Then a solid ban would be to ban your biggest threat to either character you play, or just who you don't like going against in case they might play them. Of course, banning who they just played may bring out their actual main, which is something to think about. There's more strategy to this than it seems, however, that may not matter in some cases. If both players agree to be playing the same characters through all 3 games, they can just skip the draft banning.

When I heard of it, I thought it would make a solid thing for a newer player to get more used to the game quicker. Since they don't have to face your best, they can probably learn more by playing someone you don't know as well (If you're so good that they just get pummeled that is. In those cases, it's hard to learn anything really.)

However, it does not benefit the highers in the community that much, which I think is an issue.

Once this thread has matured and the "**** this" people who ONLY say that leave, I'll send the entire thread to Roger and Warchamp to see if they still will consider testing it.
I agree with the latter-most part of that: The **** this people who only say that need to, well, **** off. I can understand being passionate about things like this (hell, I am), but, if you aren't prepared to have a passionate discussion, what's the point?

The players agreeing to skip bans is interesting, though. Forgot we did that with stages already. That said, I really don't think it's in the best interest of the game, and thus will argue against it when I have an argument to present.
 
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