Dr. Mario

[EdgeTheLucas]

My Theory of what happened is that they decided to make Doc Mario an alt because of melee and such, but soon realized that he was going to throw fireballs instead of pills, use fludd,etc and, like what happened to Lucina, made him a new character.

He didn't take anyone's spot on the roster, consider him a + character, he wasn't chosen from a list of possible characters, if he was never included in the game we would have a smaller roster, not a character to take his place.
Im glad he came back.

Even still, this is a discussion about whether that decision was JUSTIFIED, not how it came to be. I know why Dr. Mario was included and how little resources he took, but the question is whether it was justified to include him at all.

I still stand by no, as on a conceptual level he's Mario wearing different clothes. He could have been an alternate costume and worked fine like that.

On a moveset level, for those that want to discuss his Melee moveset and how transferring that over justifies him being a separate character again, we should examine said moveset. His fair, throws, neutral special, and down special are all better than Mario's, and no one has been able to point out a crippling weakness Dr. Mario has against regular Mario. If it's true that he ends up being this way, then I see no reason not to remove F.L.U.D.D. (it just pushes opponents, someone tell me what it's useful for that Mario's bair and Cape don't already do) and give Mario his Tornado special back (even as a custom special at the very least, for those that still really wanna keep F.L.U.D.D.), give his fair Doctor Mario's fair properties (its upwards-sending trajectory is more useful than Mario's downwards-sending one because it can be used anywhere on the stage to be effective rather than just the ledges), and buff Mario's fireballs to work like Dr. Mario's pills because frankly they're more useful for harassing opponents and controlling space than Mario's current fireballs anyway.

Regular Mario's downthrow looks much better than Dr. Mario's down throw, though (some have been calling it the new Melee Sheik down-throw--that's saying a lot), so with Dr. Mario's other better throws (his own down-throw looks only decent), we have to question whether different throws are worth a separate character after examining that his other changes are just buffs that could have easily been applied to Mario himself. Just giving Mario Dr. Mario's throws on top of his already really good down-throw would make him beyond broken, but wouldn't it be cleaner to just take both of their throws and put the most balanced combination into a single Mario? I think it would.

I guess the last real reason people want Dr. Mario to be separate is that maybe people want Mario to wear a labcoat really badly, and also really want to see him throw pills around. Well, what's stopping Sakurai from programming Mario's doctor outfit so that his fireballs (which could theoretically have the pills' properties by default--this is important to remember) change to pill graphics and make the trademark sound effects when Mario switches to it on the character selection screen? And for people that say that the Dr. Mario franchise is very successful and important to Nintendo and deserves a fighter, well, wouldn't said doctor outfit with the pills and pill sound effects work alright? I mean, Dr. Mario and Mario are one and the same. Miyamoto's stated on numerous occasions that Mario and the rest of the crew are like a troupe of actors, taking on a variety of roles, Mario being both a plumber and a doctor among them. Some like to say that Dr. Mario is an alternate universe version of Mario, which isn't explicitly stated much like any of the non-mainline Mario platformers not being canon isn't explicitly stated, either. As such, it would be perfectly fine to make Dr. Mario an alternate costume for Mario even if it turned out he was a different person after all.

Last, and in the case you could call it least, some people have stated that being a costume wouldn't work because fire and pills have different properties when you hit an enemy. Fire is energy, and pills aren't. If Ness used PSI Magnet, he could absorb Mario's fireballs but not Dr. Mario's pills. I argue that, in a sense, the pills ARE energy because they're medicine, and one could easily adjust the pills to look more ethereal rather than physical to make up for it. Or, my favorite fix, put the pills on fire. After all, you're a doctor and it could make way for heartburn jokes. In this game Dr. Mario's pills aren't curing anybody, they're hurting people, which goes against what the pills did in the Dr. Mario games. Putting the pills on fire could circumvent that, turn the projectile from physical to energy, and solves the problem.

All in all, the reasons above are why I have a very hard time justifying Dr. Mario's inclusion. I understand that Dr. Mario was very easy to implement, but at the same time he doesn't really add anything that couldn't have been done to Mario. I can only see him as filler, which I don't see as a good thing regardless if it's extra content or not, and unless someone else puts up a really, really, REALLY good argument for the other side, I'm going to keep thinking this way.

 

[Kazuhira Nishijo]

I squeed with joy when I saw the doc was back especially since he has the tornado. I didnt expect him to ever come back so he was a much welcomed surprise for me.

 

[Japsy]

One of the main reasons people hate Dr Mario compared to the other clone characters the series has had is because Mario and Dr Mario are the same character, just in different costumes. Other clones in the series can easily be justified (Link and Young Link live in parallel worlds, Pikachu and Pichu could be different Pokemon etc), but people are usually stumped at Dr Mario's inclusion.

But the thing is, there really shouldn't be a problem. Every character in Smash bros is summoned across time, space and dimensions by Master Hand to fight for his amusement, yes? Well then, he should have no problem in taking two versions of Mario from the same universe at different points of his life and making them fight. It's really no different from having Samus fight Zero Suit Samus or having Sheik fight Zelda. The only reason people cut Sheik and ZSS some slack is because they aren't clones.

Do you not understand the Mario lore?
Dr. Mario is Mario's dad. This explains why Cranky has aged so much since the original Donkey Kong game but Mario is still so long. It wasn't Mario who fought Cranky, it was his dad.

 

[Cyberguy64]

Doctor Mario was one of my favorite characters in Melee.

That being said. I liked him because he was a different costume for Mario, and I have a thing for alternate character options. With the addition of costumes and adjustable character movesets as things in Smash 4. (Somewhat underutilized things, but things nonetheless.) I stand by my opinion that there's literally no reason to have him as his own character.

All that being said again, I probably will end up using him. Its really more the execution I despise. Not so much the character himself. And anyway, as badly executed as he is, it's still far better done than Lucina or Dark Pit.

 

[Minwu]

i think you guys need to take a chill pill

 

[CrossoverMan]

Do you not understand the Mario lore?
Dr. Mario is Mario's dad. This explains why Cranky has aged so much since the original Donkey Kong game but Mario is still so long. It wasn't Mario who fought Cranky, it was his dad.

Do you have proof of that?

 

[Flaxr XIII]

I pretty much called him since when I heard of Lucina's playable upgrade. Though I'm surprised Mewtwo didn't come back with him. Not mad, just surprised.
I'm glad this means that cut veterans have a chance to come back. Ice Climber, Lucas, and Wolf shall return!

 

[Folt]

Even still, this is a discussion about whether that decision was JUSTIFIED, not how it came to be. I know why Dr. Mario was included and how little resources he took, but the question is whether it was justified to include him at all.

I still stand by no, as on a conceptual level he's Mario wearing different clothes. He could have been an alternate costume and worked fine like that.

On a moveset level, for those that want to discuss his Melee moveset and how transferring that over justifies him being a separate character again, we should examine said moveset. His fair, throws, neutral special, and down special are all better than Mario's, and no one has been able to point out a crippling weakness Dr. Mario has against regular Mario. If it's true that he ends up being this way, then I see no reason not to remove F.L.U.D.D. (it just pushes opponents, someone tell me what it's useful for that Mario's bair and Cape don't already do) and give Mario his Tornado special back (even as a custom special at the very least, for those that still really wanna keep F.L.U.D.D.), give his fair Doctor Mario's fair properties (its upwards-sending trajectory is more useful than Mario's downwards-sending one because it can be used anywhere on the stage to be effective rather than just the ledges), and buff Mario's fireballs to work like Dr. Mario's pills because frankly they're more useful for harassing opponents and controlling space than Mario's current fireballs anyway.

Regular Mario's downthrow looks much better than Dr. Mario's down throw, though (some have been calling it the new Melee Sheik down-throw--that's saying a lot), so with Dr. Mario's other better throws (his own down-throw looks only decent), we have to question whether different throws are worth a separate character after examining that his other changes are just buffs that could have easily been applied to Mario himself. Just giving Mario Dr. Mario's throws on top of his already really good down-throw would make him beyond broken, but wouldn't it be cleaner to just take both of their throws and put the most balanced combination into a single Mario? I think it would.

I guess the last real reason people want Dr. Mario to be separate is that maybe people want Mario to wear a labcoat really badly, and also really want to see him throw pills around. Well, what's stopping Sakurai from programming Mario's doctor outfit so that his fireballs (which could theoretically have the pills' properties by default--this is important to remember) change to pill graphics and make the trademark sound effects when Mario switches to it on the character selection screen? And for people that say that the Dr. Mario franchise is very successful and important to Nintendo and deserves a fighter, well, wouldn't said doctor outfit with the pills and pill sound effects work alright? I mean, Dr. Mario and Mario are one and the same. Miyamoto's stated on numerous occasions that Mario and the rest of the crew are like a troupe of actors, taking on a variety of roles, Mario being both a plumber and a doctor among them. Some like to say that Dr. Mario is an alternate universe version of Mario, which isn't explicitly stated much like any of the non-mainline Mario platformers not being canon isn't explicitly stated, either. As such, it would be perfectly fine to make Dr. Mario an alternate costume for Mario even if it turned out he was a different person after all.

Last, and in the case you could call it least, some people have stated that being a costume wouldn't work because fire and pills have different properties when you hit an enemy. Fire is energy, and pills aren't. If Ness used PSI Magnet, he could absorb Mario's fireballs but not Dr. Mario's pills. I argue that, in a sense, the pills ARE energy because they're medicine, and one could easily adjust the pills to look more ethereal rather than physical to make up for it. Or, my favorite fix, put the pills on fire. After all, you're a doctor and it could make way for heartburn jokes. In this game Dr. Mario's pills aren't curing anybody, they're hurting people, which goes against what the pills did in the Dr. Mario games. Putting the pills on fire could circumvent that, turn the projectile from physical to energy, and solves the problem.

All in all, the reasons above are why I have a very hard time justifying Dr. Mario's inclusion. I understand that Dr. Mario was very easy to implement, but at the same time he doesn't really add anything that couldn't have been done to Mario. I can only see him as filler, which I don't see as a good thing regardless if it's extra content or not, and unless someone else puts up a really, really, REALLY good argument for the other side, I'm going to keep thinking this way.

Moveset-wise, Dr. Mario has the reverse Nair thing going on, along with his Sheet not being as good as the Cape for recovery. By keeping Dair and Tornado, he now also gets two different moves from Mario. While Mario could in theory get all those buffs or a middle, the Reverse Nair is a quite unusual move and a stand-out among other similiar moves, and would be out-of-place on a fighter like Mario. Also, saying that Bair and Cape pushes opponents is pretty wrong in and of itself because the Bair's "push" is knockback while Cape is a reflector. Neither move actually push opponents, and both require Mario to be close to the opponent. Also as I've noted before, there are people who like Mario's FLUDD, and both Mario with FLUDD or Mario with the Tornado are equally viable movesets for Smash. Dr. Mario being in means we can get both.

Besides that, with Mario getting his really good d-throw and Dr. Mario's throws being powerful, I see Mario as being more of a combo fighter, while the doctor focuses on power. That can differentiate a seemingly similiar moveset and make them play different from each other in high level play.

Appearance-wise, he looks very different from the usual overall-and-cap Mario, wearing an outfit suitable for a doctor. Also, as you've said, Mario and the gang are like a troupe of actors, taking on a variety of roles. While Mario is normally type-cast as the hero who saves people, he does so in vastly different ways as the hero of Mushroom Kingdom and as a mere doctor: As the hero of Mushroom Kingdom, he fullfills the role of the knight in shining armor (or dirty overalls) rescuing the princess from an evil dragon/demon king and restores peace to the land, travelling through locations almost out of fairy tales and making use of a variety of powers as he overcomes the obstacles that lie in his path. As a doctor of a clinic, he seeks to help the common people and researches methods (culminating in the creation of the Megavitamins) to advance medicine and health-care. The thing that ties both together and shows us that it is indeed Mario is that both roles are main roles with Mario as a hero. But the way they do fullfill that hero role is different from each other and appeal to different fans. In fact, one could say that both are different takes on the same character, putting him in different settings and giving him different goals, much like how Mario and Dr. Mario are different takes on what would otherwise be the same moveset.

I think the reason Dr. Mario was the Mario that was chosen to clone Mario's moveset in Melee is because he had the most potential as a Mario clone who could draw from common items that would be suitable for his role (like pills and hospital sheets, and F-smash being kind of like a defibrillator) while still being fundamentally different from the source of his cloned moveset (like how Dr. Mario is still Mario in a hero role, but not the role that you'd typically associate with Mario).

Also, pills by design are by definition a solid object. They don't actually become energy until it's administered and broken down, and by that point they're not pills anymore. Having pills be flammable and thus be energy is also something I oppose, as a burning pill is still a solid object. It's not energy until it's not a pill. And if you want to get technical, the pills also did hurt something in Dr. Mario's games: the viruses.

Though, it's actually kind of a mistake to call the Megavitamins for pills, as they are basically medicine encased in capsules. Enclosing medicine in capsules is usually done to provide it with a relatively stable shell in order to take them orally or through suppositories. With that in mind, one can argue that the damage is done by the capsule, and because the Megavitamin wasn't taken through swallowing or as a suppository it will not give any medicinal effects (or maybe the Megavitamins are actually dangerous in contact with skin and must be taken through digesting the pill and letting the medicine run its course through the patient's blood).

Dr. Mario being a separate character is justifiable, whether it's by moveset, by looks, by roles, or by traits.

 

[TaichiYaegashi]

Poor balance is indeed a bad thing.

On a game design level, yes.

You shouldn't include a clone of a character that, all in all, is just buffs of the original with some negligible weaknesses that won't matter in the long run. So far, Dr. Mario looks like this and I don't like it.

I felt this way about him in Melee and I hope I won't have to feel this way about him in Smash 4.

I guess I just don't see it as a problem if Dr. Mario is better than Mario. Sorry. :\

 

[Morbi]

Apparently the good doctor's inclusion was justified by the creative director; that is the only relevant aspect of discussion. However, if we were to divulge into whether or not I personally feel as though he was justified... of course. I believe that every Nintendo character is justified to be in the game if they offer something different. Dr. Mario does just that.

In the end, he was intended to be an alternate costume. Sakurai decided that it was awkward for Dr. Mario to use fireballs and F.L.U.D.D, I happen to agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. Dr. Mario was included so that those of us who prefer to use the character we want to use could still have our matches apply to that battle record. If he is a different character, he deserves his own stats (because he is a different character). Simple as that.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I can see the complaints about him in regards to balance, and I really can't argue about that.

Except for, you know, it's far too early to say that Doc is better than Mario. Let's just wait and see if he's actually a much better choice to go for. As of now, he's just Mario with a slightly different playstyle, a power house variant to contrast Mario's great combo game, and not a better Mario.

 

[Rydog]

You're trying to justify some sort of breach of canon as it relates to Mario -- a character who has been, at various times, a carpenter, a plumber, a construction worker, a boxing referee, a (presumably licensed) medical doctor and pharmacist, a pro golfer, a race car and go-kart driver, a singles and doubles tennis player, a baseball player, a soccer player, a basketball player, and a three-time Olympian... which is all side work to his business of being a professional hero and guardian of an entire kingdom (and occasionally an entire galaxy) that is constantly under siege by entire armies. We can reasonably extrapolate that this variously makes him a professional lawman, detective, tracker, hostage negotiator, and whatever passes for an astronaut in the Mushroom Kingdom. Also, he is sometimes a piece of paper while doing these things.

Also, this is a series where multiple dozen characters from different versions of different in-game universes band together to fight in the loosest of loosely-justified tournament settings.

You're right, there is definitely a canon problem. But I do not think it's the one you're thinking of.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

I never understood the gripe people had with that.

Multiple players can select the same character in a match. Is that a canon crisis, too?

 

[CrossoverMan]

It has always rather bugged me that the characters in Smash are treated like toys and trophies. If that is the case, then you aren't watching the real Mario or Link fighting. You're just watching two toy versions of them fight. That means it can't be a true crossover if all the characters are just living toys from the same world.

I always like to think that Master Hand somehow converted the characters into trophies when he brought them to his world.

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't really put much stock into that argument imo. Especially whenever you bring up Sheik and ZSS and then all of a sudden this whole "I hate them because they are the same character" argument doesn't matter anymore just because they are unique.

I think if Doc and Dark Pit had a unique moveset then the very same people most probably wouldn't have any issues with them. So in the end, I think it's more because they are simply clones more than anything imo.

And then you have characters like Toon Link (and I guess perhaps Dark Pit too) who are even less related to the other character and just simply have the same name and similar clothing but still get more or less the same flack too. :/

 

[TTTTTsd]

Can this game come out, like, now? I'm having a ton of fun with Mario in the demo but honestly, Doc looks(and sounds) way more fun.

 

[CardiganBoy]

Yet another video not much gameplay related, but is always nice to see more, just scroll the video at 17:23 to see Doc's Victory Poses. He got a new one (in Melee he shared one with regular Mario), and imo it looks pretty badass:

 

[Wintropy]

Yet another video not much gameplay related, but is always nice to see more, just scroll the video at 17:23 to see Doc's Victory Poses. He got a new one (in Melee he shared one with regular Mario), and imo it looks pretty badass:

I love his wee little check-up pose and his pill toss. He's so dedicated it's adorable~ <3

 

[Jaguar360]

Well Mewtwo hasn't returned alongside him, but hey, I had a blast with Dr. Mario in Melee and Project M and the same should remain true here. I'm liking that his down aerial is Melee Luigi's now and I'm very glad that he has retained most of his Melee properties. I probably won't be maining him this time around, as I'll have my hands full with Greninja and Yoshi, but he will definitely one of my most used submains and I can't wait to play as him in Smash 3DS.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I feel like the Dr. got into this game by the seat of his scrubs. But would it be too much for a Dr. Mario stage? Maybe it takes place on top of a giant virus as it falls to the bottom of the screen.

 

[toadster101]

Not at all. In fact, I'd like to see a Dr. Mario stage, either inside of a medicine bottle or even in a doctor's office.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

We already have enough Mario stages as it is. We don't need any more.

 

[Spirst]

We already have enough Mario stages as it is. We don't need any more.

I think we just need more stages in general.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I think we just need more stages in general.

I couldn't agree more with this, though.

 

[toadster101]

We already have enough Mario stages as it is. We don't need any more.

There are only two confirmed for the Wii U version, so... I think it's likelier than you think. It's not our fault that Sakurai decided to recycle assets from the 3DS Mario games. Golden Plains should not exist.

 

[toadster101]

Mario went into a black hole during Super Mario Galaxy 3, which has allowed him to exist twice in an alternate dimension.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Since chances are Dr. Mario was a last minute addition next to the other clones. Its unlikely that they planned a stage for Dr. Mario. Unless they had a Dr. Mario stage on the works before actually adding Dr. Mario. After all, the doctor probably started as an alt costume long before his evolution to a clone.

 

[AEMehr]

In a game where you play as figurines of Nintendo's greats, I doubt canon is really considered to this serious of an extent.
I mean since Link and Toon Link can coexist under the logic that, "You're playing Link as he appeared in Twlight Princess and you can also play as Link as he appeared in Wind Waker". Mario and Dr. Mario would follow that same logic.

 

[AEMehr]

I think the real question is it if was too much to ask for a unique series icon.

Or even better, a unique victory theme.

 

[toadster101]

Yet another video not much gameplay related, but is always nice to see more, just scroll the video at 17:23 to see Doc's Victory Poses. He got a new one (in Melee he shared one with regular Mario), and imo it looks pretty badass:

Dark Pit has his own unique victory theme but Dr. Mario doesn't? Why Sakurai, why? ;_;

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I think the real question is it if was too much to ask for a unique series icon.

Or even better, a unique victory theme.

A stage would make up for all of that.

 

[AEMehr]

A stage would make up for all of that.

Well that would require more work, but I'm not opposed to it.

My point was that no stage would be understandable since he was a late addition, but if Dark Pit can have his own victory theme why can't Doc have one too? That and a series icon is only one additional graphic image.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Well that would require more work, but I'm not opposed to it.

My point was that no stage would be understandable since he was a late addition, but if Dark Pit can have his own victory theme why can't Doc have one too? That and a series icon is only one additional graphic image.

It makes me think that Dr. Mario might have been more late as an addition than Dark Pit. I dunno, a ton of people absolutely despise Dr. Mario (who was my main in Melee) so I am really still getting over the shock of him returning to be too upset about anything in his implementation. BUT at least they changed up the intro (which was probably the hardest thing to do).

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Having two versions of the same character isn't a problem. Yes, it doesn't make sense from a canonical standpoint, but that doesn't matter for two reasons; 1) SSB isn't a canonical part of any of it's representative's franchises anyway, and 2) even if it was, none of that matters when it comes to versus play.

I mean, hell. Look at this.

 

[ten Busch]

There are more match-ups that don't make sense than there are match-ups that do.
Red vs Blue vs Green vs Purple Toon Link could be explained by 4 Swords / Minish Cap, Zelda never became Sheik in Twilight Princess and there is a - technically - infinite amount of each Pokémon.

How is Doc Mario considered a Problem to the little bit of Mario-canon there is, while Ganondorf being much shorter in Smash than he was in Twilight Princess (when compared to Link and Zelda), Ike's Final Smash being a non-existing skill and Ganondorf being killable by literally everything (that is or isn't a Mastersword) is barely ever mentioned?

 

[Burigu]

Do you not understand the Mario lore?
Dr. Mario is Mario's dad. This explains why Cranky has aged so much since the original Donkey Kong game but Mario is still so long. It wasn't Mario who fought Cranky, it was his dad.

Good story there but totally false there is no official info claiming your theory while Cranky Kong has been mentioned mutiple of times to be the original DK so you are the one who doesn't understand or know about the lore, also if your theory is true why Pauline is still young?? if this is the same girl that Mario saved from the original DK (don't come claiming it is her daughter because this is not mentioned in any official media ever). Simply your story is false. Also comparing human age to kongs age isn't the best is like comparing human years to dog years my dog is 13 and is already old that means I must look old too?? They simply give Cranky that back story to disconect the modern DK from the first games, no Mario or this DK will became old ever.

It has always rather bugged me that the characters in Smash are treated like toys and trophies. If that is the case, then you aren't watching the real Mario or Link fighting. You're just watching two toy versions of them fight. That means it can't be a true crossover if all the characters are just living toys from the same world.

I always like to think that Master Hand somehow converted the characters into trophies when he brought them to his world.

The characters are indeed trophies brought to live, this has always been the premise since 64 except there they are toys not trophies.
Brawl mention SSE as the "world of trophies" and Master Hand being its master, the premise of smash is a person playing with toys just look at 64's intro.
If you feel that you can't see the characters as the "true" characters you are looking way to much into it. The game is about the fun and homenage to Nintendo's story, it's just and insignificant little portion to the game don't think to much into it. Them being trophies also cover any "canon" problems (as if Smash has any connection to the series canon to begin with)

Here the intro that started it all

Also people hate on Dr. Mario isn't about being imposible to have 2 Mario's at the same time, it is because conceptually, design wise and development wise, he is just a Mario pallete giving a slot, ( I don't complain), when you compare him to fellow clone Lucina, Lucina too is a full clone but, she has her own model (while Dr. use Mario's) has her own voice actress (Dr. is the same as Mario), she is sighly smaller to Marth, what I am trying to say is that both of them have differences from their original character but Lucina has more distintion aside of moveset differences, Dark Pit and Lucina are different persons from their original counterparts, have different personalities. The issue I see is not a problem with having two characters who are technically the same person, the problem I see people complaining, conceptually speaking, moveset wise and animations wise he is the most easy of all to make. (Keep in mind these are not my claims and believes I am only sharing different perspectives)

Samus and Zamus are the same person but they play and model wise are so different, the same with Zelda and Sheik, they are simply to different from each other, face, body structure, voice, animations, to really complain about them being the same person.

All said, I am ok with Dr. Mario in the game, why Sakurai decided to bring him back and cut semiclones like Lucas and Wolf will always float in my mind, the argument I see is that Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. are bonus and I see them as that so I don't think they stole a spot for anyone, but if you already have semiclones in your previous game that play more unique why don't go for them? I am not even a Wolf or Lucas fan.

PD I am not critizing your view or your take on the Smash Universe you can keep seeing it the way you want, just pointing out that the Trophy thing isn't an interpretation but a fact in the game. Greetings

 

[Morbi]

Good story there but totally false there is no official info claiming your theory while Cranky Kong has been mentioned mutiple of times to be the original DK so you are the one who doesn't understand or know about the lore, also if your theory is true why Pauline is still young?? if this is the same girl that Mario saved from the original DK (don't come claiming it is her daughter because this is not mentioned in any media ever). Simply your story is false. Also comparing human age to kongs age isn't the best is like comparing human years to dog years my dog is 13 and is already old that means I must look old too?? They simply give Cranky that back story to disconect the modern DK from the first games, no Mario or this DK will became old ever.



The characters are indeed trophies brought to live, this has always been the premise since 64 except there they are toys not trophies.
Brawl mention SSE as the "world of trophies" and Master Hand being its master, the premise of smash is a person playing with toys just look at 64's intro.
If you feel that you can't see the characters as the "true" characters you are looking way to much into it. The game is about the fun and homenage to Nintendo's story, not to thing "damn these aren't the real deal, I can't enjoy the game now", it's just and insignificant little portion to the game don't think to much into it. Them being trophies also cover any "canon" problems (as if Smash has any connection to the series canon to begin with)

Here the intro that started it all

Also people hate on Dr. Mario isn't about being imposible to have 2 Mario's at the same time, it is because conceptually, design wise and development wise, he is just a Mario pallete giving a slot, ( I don't complain), when you compare him to fellow clone Lucina, Lucina too is a full clone but, she has her own model (while Dr. use Mario's) has her own voice actress (Dr. is the same as Mario), she is sighly smaller to Marth, what I am trying to say is that both of them have differences from their original character but Lucina has more distintion aside of moveset differences, Dark Pit and Lucina are different persons from their original counterparts, have different personalities. The issue I see is not a problem with having two characters who are technically the same person, the problem I see people complaining, conceptually speaking, moveset wise and animations wise he is the most easy of all to make.

Samus and Zamus are the same person but they play and model wise are so different, the same with Zelda and Sheik, they are simply to different from each other, face, body structure, voice, animations, to really complain about them being the same person.

All said, I am ok with Dr. Mario in the game, why Sakurai decided to bring him back and cut semiclones like Lucas and Wolf will always float in my mind, the argument I see is that Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. are bonus and I see them as that so I don't think they stole a spot for anyone, but if you already have semiclones in your previous game that play more unique why don't go for them? I am not even a Wolf or Lucas fan.

PD I am not critizing your view or your take on the Smash Universe you can keep seeing it the way you want, just pointing out that the Trophy thing isn't a interpretation but a fact in the game. Greetings

I am going to end this charade and inform you that that user was obviously being sarcastic for the sake of being humorous.

Secondly, the models might be relevant as to why people are "okay" with Zero-Suit Samus existing. However, that is quite clearly a discrepancy nevertheless. If they are "okay" with Zero-Suit, there is no logical reason for them to not be "okay" with Dr. Mario. Objectively speaking, both are "the same character."

 

[Spinosaurus]

Secondly, the models might be relevant as to why people are "okay" with Zero-Suit Samus existing. However, that is quite clearly a discrepancy nevertheless. If they are "okay" with Zero-Suit, there is no logical reason for them to not be "okay" with Dr. Mario. Objectively speaking, both are "the same character."

For some reason though, Sheik and ZSS having different movesets makes them a different character. Since Doc is a clone, he is not okay.

No, I don't get it either.

 

[Burigu]

I am going to end this charade and inform you that that user was obviously being sarcastic for the sake of being humorous.

Secondly, the models might be relevant as to why people are "okay" with Zero-Suit Samus existing. However, that is quite clearly a discrepancy nevertheless. If they are "okay" with Zero-Suit, there is no logical reason for them to not be "okay" with Dr. Mario. Objectively speaking, both are "the same character."

Sure if the user was kidding, I can't really tell sarcasm there, but that is a general problem when you try to pull off sarcastic or funny statement in the writting language, a troll face or something would help people catch up with your "obviously joking statement".

On the second I agree objetively speaking they are the same, but I can undestand why people are not ok with Dr. Mario, as stated above those are not my claims or my believes, I only tried to expand the topic not limitating the OP argument "of people being mad just because we have two Marios in the same universe", I just input some other reason why some people are cool with 2 Samus but not with 2 Marios, objetively both are the same, but the work and effort put in differenciate them is not the same. Samus both play and look so different that I can see why people don't see an issue there, maybe it's the Varia Suit covering Samus' body whole that gives you a feeling her and Zero Suit aren't the same, but don't try to convince me that it's a discrepancy there I am aware of that, I just "understand" others for claiming Dr. Mario is just another Mario, while over looking Samus and Zelda

 

[Spinosaurus]

Then they should complain about Doc being a clone, and not for being Mario in a lab coat.