Downloading - Stealing?

[gtkdltk007]

Today, we live in the Internet Age, where we can get on and find anything we want. If we look carefully enough, we can find all sorts of different things that we can claim for ourselves. Any of these things, include pirated movies, games, CD's, and ROMs.

In my opinion, I believe that the downloading of such objects is completely illegal. There are many people who worked hard on these things, and downloading them is stealing the money that they rightfully deserve, as well as the respect they so rightfully deserve. Actors and directors work on films, music artists sing songs, and Video game makers create Games, which so many times we have seen become ROMs online. People braking this crime do deserve the punishment they give.

It is a fact that there is actually a way to play illegally emulated Gamecube games on the PC. You can play Melee like that. Don’t believe me? You can google video it, and it’ll be there trust me. The act of doing something like this is despicable in my opinion. If you want something, why don’t you respect the guy who made it in the first place?

What do you think? Do you believe that because its there, it’s yours for the taking? Or do you believe in rightfully purchasing things.

 

[Deleted member]

I liken things downloaded from the Internet to someone borrowing something from a library.
When you download an album or a game, you're not going to sell it on the street. It's for your personal use.


At a library, you can find anything from movies to music to books. You can watch them without paying money for them. What is the difference?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1080754657038_76163857///?hub=TopStories

"I cannot see a real difference between a library that places a photocopy machine in a room full of copyrighted material and a computer user that places a personal copy on a shared directory linked to a P2P service,'' von Finckenstein wrote.

"No evidence was presented that the alleged infringers either distributed or authorized the reproduction of sound recordings.

"They merely placed personal copies onto shared directories on their computers which were accessible by other computer users via an online download service."

Yes, the article is a couple years old. But the analogous truth is still relevant.

 

[Crimson King]

I liken things downloaded from the Internet to someone borrowing something from a library.
When you download an album or a game, you're not going to sell it on the street. It's for your personal use.


At a library, you can find anything from movies to music to books. You can watch them without paying money for them. What is the difference?

Libraries are state owned institutions. All media in the Library is paid for with tax payer dollars. So when they have a DVD of a movie, they probably paid quadruple it's worth, but they are able to lend it out at will.

 

[Deleted member]

Libraries are state owned institutions. All media in the Library is paid for with tax payer dollars. So when they have a DVD of a movie, they probably paid quadruple it's worth, but they are able to lend it out at will.

Hmm. Your point is moot. The fact remains that once the DVD is purchased anyone can borrow it and watch it. Much like when someone generously purchases a CD to rip it to the Internet, anyone can borrow it.

 

[Crimson King]

Huge difference. The people at libraries don't burn multiple copies of it (or at least on average don't). Secondly, the company gets paid compensation. It may cost the library a lot of money to have the rights to that DVD.

The issue is "Is downloading stealing?" It is. Is it illegal? It is. Will it stop me from doing it? Doubt it.

 

[gtkdltk007]

Exactly. As much as I don't like to admit it, I have downloaded in the past. Yes, that destroys the very morals I mentioned in the first post, but It's true. We do it, and it doesn't look like it's going to stop anytime soon.

 

[Falco&Victory]

yes, it is stealing. It is wrong. We shouldn't do it ever, as it is illegal

do I do it?
you bet your *** i do!

 

[Xsyven]

I bought a new laptop just last Sunday.

I've stolen hundreds of dollars worth of software already. I should feel guilty, but it's just too easy.

 

[Falco&Victory]

music is usually people's main priority, along with overly-expensive programs like *insert adobe products here*, which is just HORRIBLY overpriced.

Luckily, through the power of microsoft you can get bunches of free software lol

 

[cF=)]

Music downloading has major downsides, but in my case, if I download something worthy, I'll purchase a copy of the CD I just 'stole'. Else, if I buy a record without listening to it, I'll probably loose money for a random band's crappy work.

 

[Blackadder]

music is usually people's main priority, along with overly-expensive programs like *insert adobe products here*, which is just HORRIBLY overpriced.

Luckily, through the power of microsoft you can get bunches of free software lol

Spot on, I have to say.
Yes, it is illegal, but Limewire is such an easy-to-use programme, and it's not like I'll BUY a CD if I only want the artist’s break-out song. Plus itunes is another thing that asks for money...and since no one wants to...download it up.

Incidentally, I'm not sure how illegal Limewire is. It's still up, and even has a wikipedia page on it. I think it may be a legal-loophole in some situations.
Though that's really hypothetical.

 

[Falco&Victory]

limewire is legal, just like teh interwebz, it's how you use it

filesharing is perfectly legal

 

[Eight Sage]

If you obtain for free something that you had to pay for (excluding contests, finding it on the street or a gift received) is illegal. Music, games, programs, etc. (unless they are free) it's obvious that downloading them is a form of "stealing".

What you should have in mind is that every one downloads music, for example, so practically we all are thieves, but do you go to jail? no. So, if you can do it, it isn't that illegal as it seems. But yea, downloading non-free stuff is stealing, everyone know it and do it. One day all that's on the Internet will become legal to download.

 

[Xsyven]

But yea, downloading non-free stuff is stealing, everyone know it and do it. One day all that's on the Internet will become legal to download.

Brilliant deduction!

And since 'everyone' speeds, and 'everyone' drinks alcohol at least once before their 21, one day, speeding and underage drinking will become legal.

 

[Falco&Victory]

yeah, I almost killed 9 people downloading that song, and I believe I killed thousands of brain cells too lol


but i know what you're saying, it's just not easy to compare

 

[gtkdltk007]

What I'm trying ti imply is that downloading music off of programs like Limewire and Bearshare is stealing, that you are taking away what rightfully belongs to its owner and providing nothing in return. We're all of guilty of it, hell yeah. But it's still stealing. LEgal or not, its all the same.

 

[Eight Sage]

Brilliant deduction!

And since 'everyone' speeds, and 'everyone' drinks alcohol at least once before their 21, one day, speeding and underage drinking will become legal.

Wrong reply! You misunderstood me.
If you speed and get caught ---> jail
If you drink alcohol and get caught--->fine
If you download music --> NOTHING

I said that something that's on the Internet will become of public usage, if not, it shouldn't be on it. But that's not now, I'm talking about the future; and I see I'm not the one who thinks you've done a wrong statement...

yeah, I almost killed 9 people downloading that song, and I believe I killed thousands of brain cells too lol

 

[Crimson King]

Wrong reply! You misunderstood me.
If you speed and get caught ---> jail
If you drink alcohol and get caught--->fine
If you download music --> NOTHING

Uh, no. Where were you when Napster's users got sued by the RIAA. Those people actually lost a lot of money over it.

 

[Xsyven]

Wrong reply! You misunderstood me.
If you speed and get caught ---> jail
If you drink alcohol and get caught--->fine
If you download music --> NOTHING

I said that something that's on the Internet will become of public usage, if not, it shouldn't be on it. But that's not now, I'm talking about the future; and I see I'm not the one who thinks you've done a wrong statement...

I didn't misunderstand, you just stated it badly. :/

 

[Eight Sage]

Uh, no. Where were you when Napster's users got sued by the RIAA. Those people actually lost a lot of money over it.

Ups! I forgot about that! That was a big problem that delivered in what it's now, Napster just did what nowadays is really common, the difference is that today is out of control. But it was Napster who fell, not the users, so what I said still has value.

However, My point is that downloading music is illegal, in the future it won't be (hey a lot of artists agree that sharing songs helps them to spread his music, Green Day for example), but it got misunderstood with drinking or driving at high speed being legal in the future... something that is completely unrelated to my point.

Edit:

I didn't misunderstand, you just stated it badly. :/

My bad then.

 

[Xsyven]

But it was Napster who fell, not the users, so what I said still has value.

Uh...

Uh, no. Where were you when Napster's users got sued by the RIAA. Those people actually lost a lot of money over it.

You didn't notice that he said Napter's users, did you? Yeah. Lots of random people got owned.

However, My point is that downloading music is illegal, in the future it won't be (hey a lot of artists agree that sharing songs helps them to spread his music, Green Day for example)

There are very few artists that will openly allow their music to go free online. And let's not forget that music isn't the only thing that people download illegally. Right now, I, or anyone else, could easily and illegally download Photoshop CS3 Extended for free. It's $999.

One day, "all that's on the Internet" will NOT become legal to download. Software developers wouldn't wouldn't even bother anymore.

 

[Eor]

The only thing downloading music will do is destroy record labels, causing bands and singers to go to something else. Radiohead is a great example of this, selling there latest CD directly from their website (and letting you pick how much to pay). Madonna is also leaving her record label and signing with some tour company.

To the issue at hand, there is no reason for it to become legal. It's stealing, and just because you don't have a physical object of it doesn't mean that it's right.

 

[Crimson King]

The only thing downloading music will do is destroy record labels, causing bands and singers to go to something else. Radiohead is a great example of this, selling there latest CD directly from their website (and letting you pick how much to pay). Madonna is also leaving her record label and signing with some tour company.

To the issue at hand, there is no reason for it to become legal. It's stealing, and just because you don't have a physical object of it doesn't mean that it's right.

My future career!!

Nah, record labels aren't going away. In fact, most are adopting a download mentality because a. it generates much more profits, b. easier to mass advertise and publish, and c. less and less people use CDs ANYWAY.

 

[Eight Sage]

You didn't notice that he said Napter's users, did you? Yeah. Lots of random people got owned.

I thought that when Crimson King said Napster users was referring to the ones who created Napster. And yeah, random people got owned... but now that's really far from happen again.

Right now, I, or anyone else, could easily and illegally download Photoshop CS3 Extended for free. It's $999.

Yeah that's a big problem, non-free programs are so easy to get now, but It's the same as stealing a Camera or something. The difference is that no one can blame you. The solution depends on you: just download free and permitted stuff and your conscious will be fine.

 

[AltF4]

I'm pretty sure that the Napster lawsuits got overturned. (Though I'd like to do some real research about it.)The ones against the users that is. It was all over the news that individual users were being targeted with huge lawsuits like $1.5 million. But the argument used in court was that it's essentially the same as stealing a CD from a store. In which case you can only fine them for what they stole, which is of course a paltry amount.

I don't really feel like downloading songs is wrong from an ethical standpoint. The bands don't even make any money off of the CD sales anyway. You're only taking revenue away from the record companies, which are an increasingly obsolete entity anyway. But they've got lots of money and will do whatever it takes to keep their money.

The fact is that bands and other artists (like comedians) can become quite popular through their own devices through the wonders of the internet. Tila Tequila and Dane Cook are both wildly popular and both made a huge fanbase via Myspace. (Note that I am not defending Tila's talent... if she has any... nor am I advocating you listen to her songs... which I wouldn't recommend. Dane cook however is amazing. Dane Cook is a silly *****.)

My favorite band, Harvey Danger (check them out... seriously), released their latest album for free via download on the internet. They get their name out there, they get word-of-mouth advertising, and they make their real money doing concerts.

After all, you can't download a concert experience. You have to actually be there, so bands will always be able to make money from that.

 

[Delphiki]

What is stealing? Taking something that doesn't belong to you? No, not if creating a copy is stealing. So stealing is, then, possessing or gaining possession of something you didn't earn. In that case, there are millions of things you have done or used which you don't deserve. Chew on that.

As for me, I'll take what I can take. I'll have what I can have. And I enjoy this pirated music I'm listening to right now as much as the last track that I bought from Target. The value is in the art, not in the work that was put into it by either party.

 

[NoSurprises]

Delphiki sounds like he's arguing that radio stations aren't stealing, instead of downloading a song. If I have an album on my computer and I haven't paid for it, then I stole it. Radio stations exists to promote songs so you buy their album, and if I have their album, I stole it. You can't compare pictures to music in any way, both are art but in no way similar.

There is no legal way to say it's not stealing. People are forgetting that people would buy albums for songs. You can say "Well I wasn't going to buy the album in the first place", but that's an excuse instead of a reason. If you don't think it's worth money doesn't mean you get to set the price for it. Songs are a luxury, you don't have to listen to them.

 

[Falco&Victory]

delphiki, you seem to think that just because.... oh wait sum1 beat me to it lol\

saying, "I won't buy it anyway" is a stupid reason. If you want it, but not badly enough to pay for it don't get it. Either that or just come to terms that what you're doing is wrong(which is way easier).

That's why I only take songs from teh rich

 

[Delphiki]

I think you both missed the point of my post. I edited out some fluff.

 

[AltF4]

Whether or not it is stealing is kind of a semantic debate. It all depends on how you want to define the word stealing.

A more substantive debate is whether or not it is ethically wrong to download music "illegitimately".

I already posted my opinion on that subject.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the clarification of thief is definitely needed for this topic to continue, as we all admit to downloading and how it doesn't strike us as wrong, or wrong enough to stop doing it.

Rather than define whether or not downloading is stealing, we need to decide what stealing is first.

As it stands now, if all of us download music, and downloading music is stealing, therefore we are thieves.

This is clearly not the case. We're not thieves. Do you go to Hell for downloading music? I call for the subject to change to the definition of stealing, as it is imperative to the matter at hand.

So, what is stealing? If you say that it's taking something that's not yours without asking, that's pretty general, is it not?

 

[gtkdltk007]

OK. the idea of an online thief is downloading something for free, and not paying for something that should be rightfully paid for. Examples include sites like Limewire and BearShare.

 

[Delphiki]

Congratulations, you have added no insight on the topic.

If your goal is to revaluate you can't use reasons like 'should be rightfully'. Why? should it be rightfully paid for?

AltF4 - what is 'illegitimate'?



Stealing is subjective but can still be defined. It's either what Delorted said, that you didn't get permission by the creator or current owner to own it, or it's that you obtained it through a means that they don't approve of. You have to earn what you get - I believe that - but I feel that you have earned whatever you have gained through your own power.

 

[AltF4]

Yea, I was afraid of that being too vague, Delpiki. I was just trying to drawn the distinction between downloading a file (which in general is not illegal at all, of course) and downloading a file for free that the creator / intellectual property owner / distributor does not wish for you to have downloaded without receiving monetary compensation. That was a mouthful.

But we all know the kind of downloading we are and are not talking about, with the exception of a possible few gray areas. It's just that it's so hard to describe in words, and since whether or not it is illegal goes back and forth and is full of loop-holes, I didn't want to call it "illegal downloading".

 

[gtkdltk007]

All I'm trying to say is that sometimes, when you downlaod something, you are taking something that doesn't belong to you, unelss you purchase it. I'm just asking for peoples opinions. SOme people think It's OK, some others don't. Me, well, it doesn't change me, becusae I still downlado stuff all the time. I just want to see how others view the situations of illegal downloading, filesharing, you kow that type of stuff.

This debate was never supposed to be about legiitamte donwloading, but illegitimate donwloading, like AltF4Warrior describes.

 

[Delphiki]

gtkd.....how the hell did you get in the Debate Hall?

Why doesn't it belong to you if you download it? If it's on my computer, don't I own that copy? Doesn't that copy belong to me? Why does it make a difference whether or not you paid for it?


Alt, the only vague area I see is if it is possible to really steal a copy. The idea of illegal copying violates the fundament of free information. Why should things not be distributed freely when it takes no work for the owner of the original?


This could be worded differently, but with the same concept:

Informational communism for the goal of improvement, or existential force for the goal of personal desire.

Rarely do I withhold something which can improve someone else when it takes me little work to provide it for them. I feel that everyone should earn what they receive in some way - you don't have to individually earn things, but you are entitled to the things of which you are worthy. This does not go for material objects, it goes for everything you have ever possessed. I guess this is kind of a combination of communism and existentialism.

 

[gtkdltk007]

Dude. Free information? How many times have you seen things being distributed over the internet for free, that is still illegal? That is what I'm referring to. Not the fact that it is free.

Yes, you own the copy if you download it, but did you acquire it legitimately? Most likely not. That is what this entire friggin thing has been about. That's it.

I have been trying to get the opinions of people about whether acquiring specific things online, such as things I referenced before, is technically stealing. Example: An artist writes a song, and then someone rips the disc, and puts it online for everyone to download for free. The artist loses money on every track sold online that was ripped from his CD. Is that just? Aren't we technically stealing from this artist?

Yes - I do it, you do it, everyone does it, but isn't it stealing? That is what I have been trying to find opinions about.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Let me just make one thing clear. Downloading, copying, etc. is never considered "stealing". To steal something implies denying the original owner access to the stolen item. If I steal your car, you no longer have a car to use. I not only have a car that does not belong to me, but you are lacking that car now. In the digital world, software/content is pirated, not stolen. Judges have stated time and time again (mostly to the mentally challenged RIAA) that illegal downloads are a form of copyright infringement, not stealing. Please refrain from referring to piracy as stealing.

I understand the mentality of the situation. By pirating content, we are denying the creators' their right to revenue, so piracy is definitely not a good thing. In today's day and age, those who embrace DRM will fall to those take advantage of the free distribution. It is utterly stupid to attempt to sell a single copy/license of a digital good. Yes, we see it happen today, but it happens with companies who are still mentally trapped in 1992. Take the RIAA, for example. They are so used to selling individual records, tapes, CDs, etc. that they feel it should be the same way on the Internet. Now they just make money by suing everyone in sight because they refuse to embrace the new age.

Watching companies struggle with DRM issues is enough for me to learn my lesson. I like Ubuntu's business model. They give away their Linux distribution for free, so its popularity naturally grows without restraint. Ubuntu sells service. Service is essentially immune to piracy. Sure, there is Ubuntuforums.org for free community support, but Ubuntu knows they offer the best kind of service for serious business situations that require it. If they chose to sell their distribution, it would have been dead on arrival. Microsoft likes annoying its customers with serial keys that deactivate themselves and require the customers to call in and reactivate them even though they paid good money. Microsoft, tragically, is more interested in fighting piracy than keeping customers happy. What if I lose my key? Sorry, Microsoft wants you to pay for it again.

I am not 100% sure what business I will go into with my computer science knowledge, but I guarantee I will never sell digital content directly. Let the non-scarce goods spread like wildfire and promote your scarce goods.

 

[Eight Sage]

I get your point Buzz... maybe we can say that Downloading, copying, etc. is to take something without having permission or the rights to do it? but is that legal? I think no (unless you have the original program, game, Cd, etc.).
So there are two kind of things here, one: downloading stuff isn't stealing, and two: downloading stuff isn't legal.
But, for example, you go to the store and buy a Cd for 20 bucks, or you have the option to download it for free from the web... so, analyzing the situation, if you downloaded the Cd you didn't "stole it", you just "obtained it" in an illegal way.

Microsoft, tragically, is more interested in fighting piracy than keeping customers happy. What if I lose my key? Sorry, Microsoft wants you to pay for it again.

I have to differ on what you said. Microsoft "fights" piracy, yes, but it also let it "enters". For example on Windows; have you seen that annoying little star on the desktop bar? well it warns you that you're using an illegal copy of Windows, but it also doesn't stop you to continue using it, because Microsoft is afraid that you move to another Operative System (like Ubuntu) and loose a potential "costumer" that's used to work on Windows (they thought that some day, you'll buy it in a legal way). I learned that from my Operative System professor, who was with the Creator of Windows NT & VAX/VMS, Dave Cutler.

Also is known that Windows success started with Windows 95, thanks to the massive distributed pirated copies.

 

[gtkdltk007]

To the people who hade the previous 2 posts, I aoreciate yout thoughts. All I wanted was peoples thoguhts about this idea.