Doubles Strategy, G&W Bucket

[xTheAscendedOnex]

So, I recently lost in a Doubles tournament with a friend of mine after our opponents chose the G&W bucket combination. It was the first time I had ever seen this strategy and I was very disappointed that it was a viable strategy. I don't throw around the word "cheap" when describing smash often but I think that is a legitimate word to use for it.

If you and your teammate have a good synergy why would you need to use such a strategy? Running and filling the bucket I think is not only disrespectful to your opponents but doesn't do your reputation any justice. It kills insanely early and it can't be reflected. Plus, it's used often when G&W partner grabs the opponent. This shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. That's just my opinion. That being said because I'm sure I'll run into more people who hide behind this strategy, does anyone have a method of beating it?

 

[warriorman222]

It's not cheap. Nothing in this game is cheap. The only thing that constitutes as "cheap" in my book, is a kill entirely of your control (i.e: Shadow The Hedgehog's poor Homing physics). And,how is it disrespectful to use an optimal strategy and play keepaway while doing so? Also, reputation isn't really a priority when it comes to winning tourneys(Dabuz).

Besides, it's nowhere near the strongest strategy. Ever heard of MLG Ball? If not, click here.

A simple solution would to run a gimmick of your own, like the aforementioned Snaring Sphere+Pocket., or Dual Little Macs/Villagers... Just run a gimmick capable(or dedicated to) of beating it that is also fine on it's own.

 

[qwfwfq]

I think part of the fun in 2v2 is developing strategies that work well for you and your teammate. It's a completely different beast than 1v1.

 

[xTheAscendedOnex]

It's not cheap. Nothing in this game is cheap. The only thing that constitutes as "cheap" in my book, is a kill entirely of your control (i.e: Shadow The Hedgehog's poor Homing physics). And,how is it disrespectful to use an optimal strategy and play keepaway while doing so? Also, reputation isn't really a priority when it comes to winning tourneys(Dabuz).

Besides, it's nowhere near the strongest strategy. Ever heard of MLG Ball? If not, click here.

A simple solution would to run a gimmick of your own, like the aforementioned Snaring Sphere+Pocket., or Dual Little Macs/Villagers... Just run a gimmick capable(or dedicated to) of beating it that is also fine on it's own.

cheap (Urban Dictionary)
A tactic available in a game which is loved and loathed in equal measure. people who abuse a cheap tactic would call it "effective" as it is available for use in the game. As effective as it may be, abuse of a cheap tactic can detriment skill at a game as cheap tactics do not usually require a great deal of skill to utilise in the first place. People can also become reliant on it to win, further detrimenting skill. Cheap tactics tend to proliferate themselves as people adopt a cheap tactic to counter the same cheap tactic used against them. The debate about a particular cheap tactic can become never-ending, due to the mixed opinions on the debate of cheapness vs effectiveness.

G&W bucket and the MLG Ball would fall under the word "cheap." No matter which way you slice it, it is still a cheap strategy. However, for whatever reason it is accepted by the competitive community therefore arguing that it shouldn't be allowed is moot. Players like me who actually would like a battle to be based solely on skills, are the minority. An optimal strategy is finding a rhythm with your partner and working together to create combos by reacting on a dime to your allies smashs/movements etc. That is what, again, in my opinion a smash doubles should be. Reputation on the other hand seems to be handed out like candy on Easter, whether it be good or bad. Doesn't matter what any mainstream player does they'll always have a fan base.

I refuse to let gimmicks dictate how I play competitive smash.

 

[Pyr]

The game doesn't know what cheap is. It just knows what winning and losing is.

 

[clydeaker]

I actually want to use this strategy now. Ha ha!

 

[warriorman222]

cheap (Urban Dictionary)
A tactic available in a game which is loved and loathed in equal measure. people who abuse a cheap tactic would call it "effective" as it is available for use in the game. As effective as it may be, abuse of a cheap tactic can detriment skill at a game as cheap tactics do not usually require a great deal of skill to utilise in the first place. People can also become reliant on it to win, further detrimenting skill. Cheap tactics tend to proliferate themselves as people adopt a cheap tactic to counter the same cheap tactic used against them. The debate about a particular cheap tactic can become never-ending, due to the mixed opinions on the debate of cheapness vs effectiveness.

G&W bucket and the MLG Ball would fall under the word "cheap." No matter which way you slice it, it is still a cheap strategy. However, for whatever reason it is accepted by the competitive community therefore arguing that it shouldn't be allowed is moot. Players like me who actually would like a battle to be based solely on skills, are the minority. An optimal strategy is finding a rhythm with your partner and working together to create combos by reacting on a dime to your allies smashs/movements etc. That is what, again, in my opinion a smash doubles should be. Reputation on the other hand seems to be handed out like candy on Easter, whether it be good or bad. Doesn't matter what any mainstream player does they'll always have a fan base.

I refuse to let gimmicks dictate how I play competitive smash.

Your first mistake is using Urban Dictionary. that place is cancer for many definitions. Although you have a point, using Double Little mac or LM+ Robin isn't exactly a cheap strategy, and they're still effective. Doubles is still playable without gimmicks, it's just harder to win when playing honest.

 

[Pazx]

I refuse to let gimmicks dictate how I play competitive smash.

Your problem is you don't think people should play to win. You don't have to use those strategies, but calling them "cheap" or implying you're above them due to some code of honour does nothing for your credibility nor your results.

Out of curiosity which character did the G&W team with? Your best bet is trying to interrupt them when they try to fill the bucket, other than that there's not much advice I can give you.

 

[xTheAscendedOnex]

Your problem is you don't think people should play to win. You don't have to use those strategies, but calling them "cheap" or implying you're above them due to some code of honour does nothing for your credibility nor your results.

Out of curiosity which character did the G&W team with? Your best bet is trying to interrupt them when they try to fill the bucket, other than that there's not much advice I can give you.

Its unfortunate that many players think the same way. For the time being, no, it will do nothing for my results and maybe it won't do a thing to my credibility. To accept something like that as the norm to me is saddening. Perhaps my way of thinking is just to straight forward. I still stand by that such tactics are a cheap way to earn a W. That being said, I'm not going to throw a fit every time I see someone try something like this. I'll welcome the challenge. I want to learn how to beat it and rise above it without having to do the same sort of thing.

I've no doubt I will accomplish this, it may take some time but patience is a virtue. I was just hoping other people had a way to defend against it. Everyone who is content with gimmicks I respect as opponents. That is how they play smash even if I don't agree with it. This is how I play smash and it's brought me pretty damn far. Anyway, to answer your question it was Pikachu.

 

[warriorman222]

. Anyway, to answer your question it was Pikachu.

Of course. Your best bet are to use characters that can keep them away or have counters. Usually these players aren't actually adept with the characters, so seperating them and doing 2 1v1s, or ganging up on 1 will make winning easier. It also doesn't help them that G&W has trouble killing and gets killed extremely early, while Pikachu needs to kill off a read or gimp and dies quite early. Mega Man is actually a better teammate for G&W in this case, but people ignore that so your chances are higher than they should be.

If you fight the MLG Ball team, your chances are slimmer since both characters are at the lower end of top tier, the OHKO is easier to setup(and has a vaccum effect if you miss), and Villlager and Lucario are pains to fight alone. In that case, your only hope is to get them away from each other from the get-go, and stay away from Villager if he ever Pockets a Snaring Aura Sphere.

 

[1FC0]

Its unfortunate that many players think the same way. For the time being, no, it will do nothing for my results and maybe it won't do a thing to my credibility. To accept something like that as the norm to me is saddening. Perhaps my way of thinking is just to straight forward. I still stand by that such tactics are a cheap way to earn a W. That being said, I'm not going to throw a fit every time I see someone try something like this. I'll welcome the challenge. I want to learn how to beat it and rise above it without having to do the same sort of thing.

So you declared it cheap before you even knew if there is a counter or not? How is something that can be easily countered by any experienced player cheap? As far as you knew this could by easily countered by any experienced player.

Maybe you should hold your judgement on what is cheap and what not until after you have thoroughly researched something, instead of calling cheap on first sight.

 

[xTheAscendedOnex]

So you declared it cheap before you even knew if there is a counter or not? How is something that can be easily countered by any experienced player cheap? As far as you knew this could by easily countered by any experienced player.

Maybe you should hold your judgement on what is cheap and what not until after you have thoroughly researched something, instead of calling cheap on first sight.

Whether it can be countered by an experienced player easily or otherwise does not change anything. I said it was cheap, I didn't say it was unbeatable. There is a difference. This is why I am trying to gain information on the technique to beat it. Just to give you an example, the game Street Fighter, if you play someone online and all they do is use Shoryuken over and over to earn a victory, that is considered "cheap." In the same scenario, someone who is familiar with the Shoryuken and knows how to beat it, even if it is the single move being used pulls out a W. That doesn't make what the other person was doing any less cheap, there opponent just knew the ins and outs and was able to utilize that to overcome it.

Same thing I'm trying to do here. I wasn't trying to turn this into a flame war, I'm just trying to find some information to better my game.

 

[warriorman222]

Whether it can be countered by an experienced player easily or otherwise does not change anything. I said it was cheap, I didn't say it was unbeatable. There is a difference. This is why I am trying to gain information on the technique to beat it. Just to give you an example, the game Street Fighter, if you play someone online and all they do is use Shoryuken over and over to earn a victory, that is considered "cheap." In the same scenario, someone who is familiar with the Shoryuken and knows how to beat it, even if it is the single move being used pulls out a W. That doesn't make what the other person was doing any less cheap, there opponent just knew the ins and outs and was able to utilize that to overcome it.

Same thing I'm trying to do here. I wasn't trying to turn this into a flame war, I'm just trying to find some information to better my game.

So to you, spamming is cheap, even though by the Urban Dictionary definition, it falls apart by being hated more than it's loved, but agreed as afiar and eaily beatable tactic. Yeah... no. This is starting to show that the word cheap is thrown around so much, that it loses all meaning and cannot even be given one.

And if the anti-Shoryuken uses the same punish over and over, is that not spamming? Is that not cheap too? By that logic, staying in Relfector forever vs an opposing Hero Bow is cheap. By that, dsmash to punsih roll is cheap. And by that, counterpicking is cheap. Using top tiers is cheap. Playing the damn game is cheap.

That's what I meant about cheap not having a meaning. Right now, I just think it's used to describe something you don't like negatively.

SO if you're trying to better your game, why are you trying to justify yourself by calling "this" or "that" cheap? You don't need to. You wanted help, therefore you could just ask. You don't need to paint yourself in a white light, or make yourself look honorable and heroic. Just ask for help.

 

[xTheAscendedOnex]

Of course. Your best bet are to use characters that can keep them away or have counters. Usually these players aren't actually adept with the characters, so seperating them and doing 2 1v1s, or ganging up on 1 will make winning easier. It also doesn't help them that G&W has trouble killing and gets killed extremely early, while Pikachu needs to kill off a read or gimp and dies quite early. Mega Man is actually a better teammate for G&W in this case, but people ignore that so your chances are higher than they should be.

If you fight the MLG Ball team, your chances are slimmer since both characters are at the lower end of top tier, the OHKO is easier to setup(and has a vaccum effect if you miss), and Villlager and Lucario are pains to fight alone. In that case, your only hope is to get them away from each other from the get-go, and stay away from Villager if he ever Pockets a Snaring Aura Sphere.

Question for you then, would it be better to double team G&W/Villager or go after the ones that are setting up the gimmick?

So to you, spamming is cheap, even though by the Urbam Dictionary definition, it falls apart. Yeah... no. This is starting to show that the word cheap is thrown around so much, that it loses all meaning and cannot even be given one.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here. I agree with you that sometimes the word cheap is thrown out a lot sometimes unrealistically. To me in certain situations spamming could be cheap, but it depends entirely on the situation. Like in Smash, I like playing Yoshi and Link. I spam Link's arrows and Yoshi's eggs to set up some of my other move sets. My brother tells me all the time that "It's so cheap." Players like you and I know that it's part of the pressure game. Keeps the opponent guessing and forces them to sometimes make crucial mistakes. I don't consider that sort of spamming to be cheap at all.

 

[warriorman222]

Question for you then, would it be better to double team G&W/Villager or go after the ones that are setting up the gimmick?

Neither. because G&W/Villager is a horrible team strategy as the point of using G&W is completely moot when you don't have an OHKO projectile. And making atema designed to ebat it is hooting yourself in the foot for when you face something like Pikawatch or dual Villys or MLG Ball. Also, I heavily edited my post.

Okay, I know that's not what you mean.But making a gimmick designed to beat something is just as gimmicky. By any definition of cheap, if one is cheap, the other is too. And I would much rather being the person using a highly effective strategy regardless of how dumb it is to fight, than the guy forced to design my team around it. So my answer is to "double team G&W/Villager".

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here. I agree with you that sometimes the word cheap is thrown out a lot sometimes unrealistically. To me in certain situations spamming could be cheap, but it depends entirely on the situation. Like in Smash, I like playing Yoshi and Link. I spam Link's arrows and Yoshi's eggs to set up some of my other move sets. My brother tells me all the time that "It's so cheap." Players like you and I know that it's part of the pressure game. Keeps the opponent guessing and forces them to sometimes make crucial mistakes. I don't consider that sort of spamming to be cheap at all.

Okay. But using the same move over and over because they cannot adapt to it is not cheap, in my opinion. If they do the same approach over and over and I punish with Shoryuken over and over, is that any cheaper than them doing Shoryuken over and over and me countering is over and over?

Just a question.

 

[xTheAscendedOnex]

Neither. because G&W/Villager is a horrible team strategy as the point of using G&W is completely moot when you don't have an OHKO projectile. And making atema designed to ebat it is hooting yourself in the foot for when you face something like Pikawatch or dual Villys or MLG Ball. Also, I heavily edited my post.

Okay, I know that's not what you mean.But making a gimmick designed to beat something is just as gimmicky. By any definition of cheap, if one is cheap, the other is too. And I would much rather being the person using a highly effective strategy regardless of how dumb it is to fight, than the guy forced to design my team around it. So my answer is to "double team G&W/Villager".


Okay. But using the same move over and over because they cannot adapt to it is not cheap, in my opinion. If they do the same approach over and over and I punish with Shoryuken over and over, is that any cheaper than them doing Shoryuken over and over and me countering is over and over?

Just a question.

Okay, so double team them next time. Got it.

--

I see where you're coming from. I suppose in that sense, every individual person would define what cheap is differently. I'm sure some would argue that the constant Shoryukens are a form of the pressure game, others would agree with my last post. In the end, we've been doing exactly what the definition I posted earlier said. "The debate about a particular cheap tactic can become never-ending, due to the mixed opinions on the debate of cheapness vs effectiveness." I think despite whether a move/play style is truly cheap or not is irrelevant. It's finding a way to overcome them is what matters. I've no doubt that I'll face both the MLG Ball and more G&W buckets again in the future. I want to make sure I'm ready for both when I'm faced with it again. I just want to improve. ^_^

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait, does someone here seriously think MLG ball is more broken than Vanish Bucket?

 

[xTheAscendedOnex]

Wait, does someone here seriously think MLG ball is more broken than Vanish Bucket?

I don't think anyone is saying one is more broken as you say then the other. We're just discussing how to approach these strategys,

 

[1FC0]

Whether it can be countered by an experienced player easily or otherwise does not change anything. I said it was cheap, I didn't say it was unbeatable. There is a difference. This is why I am trying to gain information on the technique to beat it. Just to give you an example, the game Street Fighter, if you play someone online and all they do is use Shoryuken over and over to earn a victory, that is considered "cheap." In the same scenario, someone who is familiar with the Shoryuken and knows how to beat it, even if it is the single move being used pulls out a W. That doesn't make what the other person was doing any less cheap, there opponent just knew the ins and outs and was able to utilize that to overcome it.

Same thing I'm trying to do here. I wasn't trying to turn this into a flame war, I'm just trying to find some information to better my game.

So basically cheap means playing in a boring way. But with this definition winning in a cheap way requires a bad game where the optimal strategy is boring or a bad opponent where a non-optimal strategy succeeds. playing cheap is almost never if ever the fault of the person doing the cheap playing.

And the way to beat it is to not get hit .

 

[Tictrock]

There are definitely a lot of flaws with the bucket, but synergy is key and honestly i feel like to pull this off, you'd have to out play your opponents.
My friends and I made an entire video a while back about it.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

An optimal strategy is finding a rhythm with your partner and working together to create combos by reacting on a dime to your allies smashs/movements etc.

An optimal strategy is winning. If you aren't winning, you're using the wrong strategy.

 

[Stringsbatman]

The way I see it the g&w team looked at the available resources in the game, found a strategy that won, and executed it. As long as the rules of the tournament allow it they did the right thing. If someone were to identify a strategy that could win and decided to not use it because of a moral issue than all that team is doing is imposing an unnecessary barrier on themselves. Use what works to win. If it becomes a degenerative enough issue(ie. Every sm4sh teams tournament was won by a similar strategy) change the rules to accommodate that.