Meta Donkey Kong Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Krynxe]

Please use this thread to talk about the competitive aspects of the game regarding Donkey Kong.

If you want to socialize, or continue an off-topic discussion, please use the DK Social Thread

Discuss.

 

[Krynxe]

reserved

 

[Aninymouse]

Is dash attack to fair a true combo at high percents? If so, it looks amazing!

 

[itsaxelol]

after playing almost 400 online games ill give my thoughts

-the only buffs dk got were down b being faster and grounded up b being better and the roll. thats it
-everything else is a trade off, speed for less power and range, most notably fair and dair
-in some cases, there is flat out nerfs with no benefits whatsoever which for the life of me i cannot comprehend why DK would be nerfed. fsmash gap, downsmash hitbox, headbutt reducing knockback by 50%, punch taking an extra charge, cargo downthrow change
-its impossible to triple jump onto the stage without lag. the "perfect landing" still has lag thats easily punished
-his big frame does not come with the benefits they used to. his grab range isnt very impressive, and eveyone lives long anyway. so his weight doesnt seem as prominent. he constantly gets hit from jabs when the opponent is jabbing in the opposite direction
- i still cant believe they changed aerial cargo downthrow from the e3 demo to what it is now, lol, its so god damn lazy. they mustve thought it was too good (it sent them complelely downwards), so they changed the trajectory to horizonal.. but they didnt bother to change the animation. dk stil throws them down but they just go to the right or left.. looks stupid
-recovery is *** compared to half of the wall jumping/clinging cast. really pisses me off that mac who is supposed to be a jabroni in the air can jump off walls, but the king of the jungle cannot
- sdi nerfs hurts DK. all those characters with multi hit moves, yoshi bair dair, samus uair, etc all rack up damage big time now if you dont get out

what makes it worse, too many guys have too many things going for them. range, speed, power, superarmor, invincibility frames, small hurtboxes, projecticles... when i play robins, macs, zss and pits girlfriend i feel outclassed. mac literally has all of those except projectiles. and when he runs (and hes almost as fast as sonic btw) his hurtbox is smaller than olimar. and then he has a near 1 hit ko move. pits girlriend has insane range, very high run speed idk why, her fsmash for some reason is almost as strong as DKs, but is disjointed and even has a wind effect lol. robin literally has everything. counter moves are the most reliable way to kill now and that really sucks, too

dk will probably end up at the bottom of middle tier/top of low tier

 

[The Real Gamer]

after playing almost 400 online games ill give my thoughts

-the only buffs dk got were down b being faster and grounded up b being better. thats it

You wouldn't even consider his new side B a buff? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buhy-N20YJ4&feature=youtu.be

Based on what I saw in the video it looks devastating.

 

[Neon!]

I haven't played very many games but there a few other buffs DK seems to have received:
-Down B does more shield damage (I was able to break Sheiks shield with just three hits)
-Increased hitstun means bair can WOP more easily
-the inclusion of true pivots seems to mostly benefit DK as his ftilt has incredible range and can be angled.
-a far more usable dash attack

How much testing have we done on DK's custom moves?

 

[itsaxelol]

You wouldn't even consider his new side B a buff? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buhy-N20YJ4&feature=youtu.be

Based on what I saw in the video it looks devastating.

no, thats a trade off too. knockback is reduced by 50-60% when buried and mashing out is easier. the best case scenario with the headbutt is that they shield it and then you break it afterwards. if its a full shield it wont break either, unless they hold it there for a sec after like a deer in headlights

 

[san.]

Except for Bowser and I guess Ganondorf, the heavies seem to be different in a not so good way. They should all excel when being able to read faster opponents' movements. I don't understand why they decreased the power of most of the heavier characters like that. I think it's a little early to say how a character is worse with how mechanics are changed, but it's going to be different in an uncomfortable way for some.

 

[SpectreJordan]

after playing almost 400 online games ill give my thoughts
*all of this sad news*
dk will probably end up at the bottom of middle tier/top of low tier

M-m-maybe they'll buff him for the Wii U version?

 

[ADAPT Chance]

Interesting information.

Like most gotta wait till Oct 3rd to test DK, but I'm glad his Down-B has a strong potential to shield break now.

 

[Takehiko]

What I'm wondering is, if DK got all those nerfs, what is it that sakurai felt would become broken about him? I feel like it'll be a lil mac type thing.

 

[RomanceDawn]

When I watch Elijah's videos I don't see a nerfed DK at all. His dash is so much better with a little pushing utility behind it. His down b has much more range, grounded up-b can't combo into down smash and it ends with a pose but that pose kills. His down cargo throw works different but we'll figure things out. Dair comes out so much faster and breaking shields with the the head butt is something that will undoubtedly be worked with in the future.

I've played a lot but only of the unfinished version so my personal plays don't mean much. Again though Elijah's video show me DK is just as viable as he ever was. Characters with heavy projectiles will still be a nuisance but that's the price you pay for being a big heavy character.

I say give it a little more time before we start declaring doom and gloom. I just saw a Megaman the other night that blew my mind. Used Rush, Leaf Shield and the Metal Blade like no one had ever see. I'm not saying DK is going to be some top tier giant but what ever we can exploit with him(if anything) probably has not been discovered yet.

 

[Takehiko]

For all of the DK players who currently have the game, can you do the same moves and Combos (side B > NB) with this rage mechanic and report your finding to the DK fourm? I know it wouldn't be full without an ability to test KDI on the moves, but this will be able to give us a better range of our options.

Rage Mechanic

Specifically:
@ itsaxelol
@ Neon!

 

[itsaxelol]

dont get me wrong. im still winning online with him. but hes nerfed compared to his brawl and pm self. i already mentioned his roll, down b, and up b were better. but thats where it ends, lol

takehiko, i dont mind testing some things out for you but that one is pointless. side b takes away 50-60% of knockback

10 wind mega punch is DKs best kill option

 

[Takehiko]

dont get me wrong. im still winning online with him. but hes nerfed compared to his brawl and pm self. i already mentioned his roll, down b, and up b were better. but thats where it ends, lol

takehiko, i dont mind testing some things out for you but that one is pointless. side b takes away 50-60% of knockback

10 wind mega punch is DKs best kill option

I understand that. If you wouldn't mind please test it anyway. It'd be best to have Donkey Kong's data fully fleshed out early. And it'd be nice to see if there knock back changes with the rage mechanic.

 

[SpectreJordan]

Man, I'm going to be salt if Bowser ends up being a competitively viable character but DK isn't. Hopefully things will change, it is still really early on in the game's life.

 

[Mccdbz5]

I'm interested to see if the cargo up-throw to up air still works as a viable combo like in Melee and Project M. Has anyone attempted this yet? I feel like there's a chance it could work at small percents.

 

[itsaxelol]

I'm interested to see if the cargo up-throw to up air still works as a viable combo like in Melee and Project M. Has anyone attempted this yet? I feel like there's a chance it could work at small percents.

i did. some chars yes some chars not. only 1 hit. nothing like pm or melee. havent dont extensive testing yet though

 

[Takehiko]

i did. some chars yes some chars not. only 1 hit. nothing like pm or melee. havent dont extensive testing yet though

Can report which characters it worked on?

 

[1PokeMastr]

We should not be bashing what is different from Dk now and what was in brawl, everything is better.

With vectoring, Dk will live a lot longer than what he did in brawl.

As for the cargo u-throw -> uair.
We can probably assume it works on all fast fallers and some heavies like Ganon/ Wario/ Megaman, etc.

Donkey Kong will always be as good as the user believes him to be.

 

[RomanceDawn]

If my understanding is correct Donkey Kong can't get jab locked. That will always be a handy gift during early portions of the match.

I wish he had Tough Guy as well. Has anyone noticed anything interesting from Donkey Kong's in game tips?

 

[Renji64]

Can you do anything good with cargo grabs?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Except for Bowser and I guess Ganondorf, the heavies seem to be different in a not so good way. They should all excel when being able to read faster opponents' movements. I don't understand why they decreased the power of most of the heavier characters like that. I think it's a little early to say how a character is worse with how mechanics are changed, but it's going to be different in an uncomfortable way for some.

Even Ganondorf's gotten a couple of head-scratching nerfs. His overall kill power is probably a bit worse since most of the moves he actually used to kill in the past with have been made faster and weaker. This is generally a net benefit because it makes him less exploitable, but it also means his punish game is a bit worse. He also lost SH AC frames on his Dair, which while it being techable would already ruin Thunderstorming combos, would still have at least set up for a tech chase if not for the lag, so that's just a stupid nerf. I'm still pretty sure he's been buffed on net, but he's nowhere near as strong as he should be.

 

[Neon!]

I spent a few hours playing with Denti on his stream last night, I used primarily DK and Peach. I mostly played against Denti (Sheik) and Bwett (Little Mac) who were the top two placers at our most recent smash 4 tournament. Here are a few of the things I've learned about DK:

Weaknesses: One of DK's most notable weaknesses in Brawl was his struggle to land after being juggled and his lack of ledge options (getting back on stage after grabbing the ledge) due to his large frame and lack of quick forward hitting aerials. This problem is expounded in Smash 4 due to the increased landing lag from air-dodging to the ground and the loss of invincibility frames after grabbing the ledge a second time. When playing Denti's sheik he was able to keep me on the ledge/off stage for extended amounts of time with needles and grenades alone. After a certain percent the needles will knock you into the air which reliably forces DK to the ledge because he simply cannot land anywhere next to sheik because all of his aerials are unsafe on shield except for extremely well space bairs. I also attempted to land with DK's new aerial down-B but unfortunately it is unsafe on hit! It barely pops the opponent in the air but they recover almost immediately afterwards. I was able to connect with this attack on Sheik twice when she was above 80% but both times she simply naired afterwards and punished me.

Strengths: The biggest improvement to DK this time around really has absolutely nothing to do with his moveset at all. The primary reason DK was lower mid tier and not high mid tier in Brawl was his susceptibility to chain grabs.
(listed from worst to less worse)
DDD: Standing Infinite + dtilt finisher
IC's: lol this doesnt count they can CG everyone
Wario: 0 ~ 120
Pikachu: 0 ~ 60 + nair
Falco: 0 ~ 40 + dair (which put him in a terrible position to recover)
ZSS: 0 ~ 25 + Dash attack + Dsmash frame trap
Pit: 0 ~ 30

The lack of chain grabs is a great boon to DK but he is still easy for many characters to combo out of grab for the reasons I mentioned previously.

Notable Buffs/Nerfs
Please note: I didn't have time to test percents or flesh out every single one of his attacks since I was only playing matches on stream.
Jab: both hits connect more reliably and have more shield stun
Dtilt: still one of DK's most useful attacks, safe on shield when spaced well and it seems to still have it's 40% trip rate from Brawl which combos into Down-B.
Ftilt: feels like it has slightly less range but I'm not entirely sure, still useful for mid range pokes and killing at higher percents.
Down-B: has slightly more range and deals far more shield damage, breaking a full shield with just 3 slaps of the ground.
Unfortunately it does have more cool-down.
Up-B: each hit connects more reliably and the finishing hit stops opponents from punishing on hit like in Brawl.
Side-B: DK no longer stops his aerial momentum with this attack which makes its seem clumsier at first. It has more horizontal range and breaks shield with ease (about 90% damage to a full shield) On hit, however, its a bit more lackluster. Opponents are not trapped in the ground for as long, players who are efficient at mashing out will be able to avoid follow ups below
~ 70%

(I didn't use Fsmash or Usmash hardly at all so I'm not sure of their new uses)
Dsmash: I didn't use this as much as I should have so all I know is that is a fair bit weaker.

Uair: More knockback but more ending lag as well.
Bair: Still one DK's more important tools, he can do two in a single short hop and will combo into itself at mow-mid percents.
Dair: Less startup but the new animation is less manly
Fair: Less startup + new ledge mechanics makes this attack a lot more useful. If you see an opponent re-grab the ledge for the second time simply short hop fair them (like you've always wanted to) because they have no invincibility frames when re-grabbing.

Before going into DK's grab game (which everyone has been asking about) let it be known that I cant say anything with certainty yet since I did not have time to test it out extensively. It seems that opponents can avoid Cargo-utrhow - uair if they DI (or vector lol) upwards. There were multiple times that I was able to net kills on Sheik with Uthrow-uair at around 70% but other times they were able to AD which means it may act as a frame trap on certain character weights. The same goes for low% cargo options.

One of the more interesting cargo options I found that seems like somewhat of a gimmick goes like this:
After you have the opponent in cargo, simply short hop and wait for their response. If they escape the cargo hold while in mid air they will go into the aerial grab release animation, if the opponent releases at the right moment then DK will land first and have the ability to punish the opponents while they land with jab. This seems to heavily rely on when the opponent mashes out of the grab + character weight. I was able to land the follow up jab about 4 times our of the 6 that I tried it.

That's all I've got for now, if there's anything I need to explain or if you have questions let me know!

 

[itsaxelol]

Can report which characters it worked on?

no, with vectoring its pointless. i dont know if its hitting people because of their weight or because of their lack of vector

l might go to one of those tournaments tomorrow. sadly there is items, and its 1v1v1v1 with time and not stock. 1 person advancing. so jabroni rules. if i dont get drunk tonight ill go

 

[Krynxe]

@ Neon! You mention DK's difficulties keeping stage control and landing, and it's unfortunate to hear that's it's not only still an issue but more of one than in Brawl. Question though, which stages did you play on? I'm curious if you found any stages to be particularly helpful, or did you just play on FD variants? because I imagine platforms will be able to mitigate at least a bit of the problem.

Also, you forget to mention nair and dash attack in your attack descriptions. Is nair still fast, and good for platform pressure? I'm also curious about your opinions on the new dash attack, especially since I'm not sure how laggy it is or how much hitstun/shieldstun it gives.

Dair: Less startup but the new animation is less manly

lol but also

l might go to one of those tournaments tomorrow. sadly there is items, and its 1v1v1v1 with time and not stock. 1 person advancing. so jabroni rules. if i dont get drunk tonight ill go

man with rules like those i would need to be drunk to play that lmao

 

[itsaxelol]

yea i went to nyc and it turned out it was next week. lol

nair is faster, autocancels, and is better than brawl. its not pm nair though

heres my final thoughts about dk and the game.

after 1000 games

-while i mentioned all the nerfs dk got (range and power), now that ive played everyone, hes still strong and has better range than most non sword guys
-that jp tier list floating around, the guys they have on high are all the guys i hate playing and would put at the top. rosetta, zss, shiek, greninja, and especially yoshi will all give dk problems
-side b is fast and breaks shields but i dont know what they were thinking with the bury timer. half of the time, people get out at 80% before the side b animation even finishes. im hoping its just reduced for the 3ds game. side b also always ledgegrabs which is nice
- aerial down b can be useful offstage for spiking. especially characters like bowser that are big with predictable horizontal recoveries. too laggy and ****ty for much onstage use
-down b still hits through platforms
-be weary of onstage dair. they can tech it and act long before your laggy dair animation ends
-still very bitter about fair and dair range, fair kill power, and the fsmash gap
-10 wind paunch is boner inducing
- ledge trump to bair
-good against little mac due to cargo/bair/downb/massive biceps

i think he'll be the same DK as always. mid tier. some good match ups. some unwinnable ones. harassed by projecticles. i dont think the engine favors dk. being able to gimp, ledge hog and grab was always a dk staple. sucks that characters are protected from that. but at least we cant be chaingrabbed

 

[Neon!]

@ Neon! You mention DK's difficulties keeping stage control and landing, and it's unfortunate to hear that's it's not only still an issue but more of one than in Brawl. Question though, which stages did you play on? I'm curious if you found any stages to be particularly helpful, or did you just play on FD variants? because I imagine platforms will be able to mitigate at least a bit of the problem.

Also, you forget to mention nair and dash attack in your attack descriptions. Is nair still fast, and good for platform pressure? I'm also curious about your opinions on the new dash attack, especially since I'm not sure how laggy it is or how much hitstun/shieldstun it gives.

I played mostly on FD but he certinaly is aided by platforms in general even though he cant up-b cancel anymore. As Axe said, nair is better than brawl but worse than PM (obviously) I didn't use his dash attack too often but it is still fairly easy to punish on shield but certainly has far more uses than his previous iterations, it seems to be useful for catching landings.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Ok there are some zany new projectiles out there and Duck Hunt Dog seems to have some good ones. What should I be doing to approach? My fingers keep wanting to air dodge into the ground and I constantly get punished for it. What is the best way to go about handling guys like Ness and Duck Hunt Duo?

 

[IsmaR]

Pray they **** up.

In all seriousness, though, I use either tilts or Down B to knock back DH's cans/gunslingers, and Up B for the armor against Ness (though it's very situational).

Powershielding is crucial for both (moreso than other match-ups). DH has no obvious flaws, but Ness you could at least exploit his paltry off-stage game.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Pray they **** up.

In all seriousness, though, I use either tilts or Down B to knock back DH's cans/gunslingers, and Up B for the armor against Ness (though it's very situational).

Powershielding is crucial for both (moreso than other match-ups). DH has no obvious flaws, but Ness you could at least exploit his paltry off-stage game.

Cool man. Now explain Power Shielding exactly to me. I'm not sure if it's just because I am playing online but I know I am blocking before I am struck but my character gets stuck in the skidding animation a beat before the shield goes up. So it feels like a lot of lag. Probably just the games system but I swear I get hit by everything known to me and 3 things known to monkeys.

Edit: I realize now I go into neutral before I shield so there is massive lag. How long have I been doing this so wrong?

 

[Metalbro]

Is there anything DK can follow up with after D-Throwing out of Cargo at low percents?

 

[Neon!]

I attended my first tourney today and did fairly well. We ran a Swiss Bracket with 5 rounds but only the top 4 afterwards got to compete for first place. I lost my first set but won the next four but unfortunately was not able to compete in the top 4 since other people with the same record beat better people. It was kind of upsetting but I doubt we'll do that style again here.

I ended up getting 6th out of 31 in singles but I have no idea what I got in doubles since Pikachu/GW was legal today...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

This will likely be banned in future tournaments though. The top 3 teams used this strategy and Bo5 sets lasted only a few minutes.

Out of the 10-15 tournament matches I played I broke 5 shields. Ground Pound and Headbutt are great options, use them!
Shielding in general is such a great option in this game, especially on the 3DS where precise spacing is near impossible. Many players over rely on shield/rolling which is why down-b is such a great option.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

Is there anything DK can follow up with after D-Throwing out of Cargo at low percents?

No. Maybe if they don't shield you can get a Down-B in. Otherwise they can shield all of your options. You're better off Cargo U-throwing and using U-air. Works at lower percents.

 

[Corbyn Doty]

------------------------------------

 

[1PokeMastr]

Power shielding is shielding 1-3 frames before the move hits your shield.

As for DHD, I just use Up B's SA to eat his projectiles when I know he'll try to use them, then go on to hit him.

I love his U-Tilt as an Oos option it's fast and strong is you net the sweet spot.


There's one issue with Dk he has some blind spots.

The super weak hit on Punch that never kills has a much larger hitbox than in brawl.
Some character's landing animation actually duck under punch.

 

[Lex Jewthor]

So all the matches I've been watching have been using grounded up B fairly liberally. Is it that good?

 

[Brickbox]

From what I have tested it is a decent jump canceled Oos option. Also it can punish spot dodges and seems to have a decent amount of priority.

I wish I had a capture card so I could find out what the start up on it is.

 

[DKwill]

Guys, I had a suspicion about DK's Giant Punch charge canceling and I was right.

Every time you charge punch, when you cancel it, it decreases the overall charge by -1 charge.

An easy way to test this is to charge up to 10 swings, cancel, then attempt a full charge from there. It takes 2 charges to reach the max of 11!

What is also interesting to note is that both the 10 charge punch and the 11 charge punch both do 28% damage. The 10 charge one has much more knockback, however.

 

[MasterCheeze]

Guys, I had a suspicion about DK's Giant Punch charge canceling and I was right.

Every time you charge punch, when you cancel it, it decreases the overall charge by -1 charge.

An easy way to test this is to charge up to 10 swings, cancel, then attempt a full charge from there. It takes 2 charges to reach the max of 11!

What is also interesting to note is that both the 10 charge punch and the 11 charge punch both do 28% damage. The 10 charge one has much more knockback, however.

Whoah, whoah, whoah, wait a minute now, wouldn't that mean it's impossible to keep an 11 charge on hand since it'll always come out as a 10?

edit: Pfft, yeah, nevermind. Just had to test it and of course the punch comes out as an 11 since you don't to wind up anymore at that point. But yeah, stocking a 10 charge still only leaves you with 9. That sucks.