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Does rolling kill the fun?

xExcel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
101
Oh look, another wise-cracker trying to be all edgy and cool. Kid, Sakurai/Namco/whoever would of made an alternative to Sudden Death if they thought it was degenerate. I understand why tournaments go by %, but this is just for randoms.
Oh look another kid who thinks calling someone else kid makes them cool. The fact that you admitted to being a time wasting ***** instead of trying to make a comeback says everything i need to know about you.
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
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Oh look another kid who thinks calling someone else kid makes them cool. The fact that you admitted to being a time wasting ***** instead of trying to make a comeback says everything i need to know about you.
Let's just cut to the chase, shall we? Your opinion on how the game should be played is just that: an opinion. If we were going to stop doing things in games that some people dislike, Wavedashing and L-canceling wouldn't be used at all. I'm sorry you don't want to play to win, but I do and will, and you're not changing my mind.
 

Gawain

Smash Lord
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Sep 7, 2014
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Gawain
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Let's just cut to the chase, shall we? Your opinion on how the game should be played is just that: an opinion. If we were going to stop doing things in games that some people dislike, Wavedashing and L-canceling wouldn't be used at all. I'm sorry you don't want to play to win, but I do and will, and you're not changing my mind.
Well not to rain on your parade or anything, but that might net you some "wins" against weaker players on flat stages with latency, but it doesn't mean you'll ever win anything significant on all the other legal stages and it certainly doesn't make you a better player. I'm still failing to see what the point of this argument is. The OP asked if rolling ruins the fun, not if it's effective in a given situation.
 

LancerStaff

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Well not to rain on your parade or anything, but that might net you some "wins" against weaker players on flat stages with latency, but it doesn't mean you'll ever win anything significant on all the other legal stages and it certainly doesn't make you a better player. I'm still failing to see what the point of this argument is. The OP asked if rolling ruins the fun, not if it's effective in a given situation.
The game only knows winning and losing, and by playing the game you agree to it's rules. A win earned in one ruleset may be a loss in another, it goes both ways. Can't exactly rely on platforms in Glory can ya?

My point is that dealing with rolls is just about the same as before, just marginally more precise. If it isn't fun here, it isn't fun in any other SBB, and the only way to stop having to deal with rolling is to remove it altogether.
 

Gawain

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The game only knows winning and losing, and by playing the game you agree to it's rules. A win earned in one ruleset may be a loss in another, it goes both ways. Can't exactly rely on platforms in Glory can ya?

My point is that dealing with rolls is just about the same as before, just marginally more precise. If it isn't fun here, it isn't fun in any other SBB, and the only way to stop having to deal with rolling is to remove it altogether.
The platforms aren't even the big issue with regards to rolling. The primary issue is latency, which compounds with the severely low lag of rolls and spots to create a problem. It's not as much of a problem offline as many have already said. Unless you are suggesting that latency is part of the ruleset.
 

LightLV

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
748
The only real counter to this is to either predict and throw out long-frame moves, or chase with shorthops and low-lag aerials. The bigger problem IMO is shielding. It's even better than rolling. Nearly any shielded move is punishable in smash 4.

The answer is to just keep roll-happy people in the air.
 

LancerStaff

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The platforms aren't even the big issue with regards to rolling. The primary issue is latency, which compounds with the severely low lag of rolls and spots to create a problem. It's not as much of a problem offline as many have already said. Unless you are suggesting that latency is part of the ruleset.
Kinda is, although there's typically not much, if any, when I play. There's a hidden matchmaking system, and getting outta scrub valley is usually enough to cut down on the lag.
 

XxBHunterxX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
366
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Bryan
3DS FC
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Melee's overall balancing was as half-baked as Brawls, and it's only a shear coincidence that it's marginally more playable then Brawl. Rolls being useless even before what clearly wasn't taken into account for balancing is proof of this.

FD a counterpick? Uh, what crazy ruleset are you looking at? FD is more neutral then ever.
I do agree that Melee's balance isn't too good, no where near brawls level because most of the poor design choices in brawl were intentional due to the fact that sakurai wanted it to be as far away from melee competitively as it could. Rolling has only been useless in comparison to broken mechanics which melee and brawl had.

For final destination to be neutral it would have to not give players an advantages over another due to it's layout, a little mac would counter pick FD because his ground game is used the best on that stage due to lack of platforms same would go for mega man because when on FD you limit your opponents approach options. I personally don't really think that there are any real neutral stages in smash bros. so it's baffling that sakurai would only choose one stage to play on rather than have a pool of stages they deemed legal
 

xExcel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
101
Let's just cut to the chase, shall we? Your opinion on how the game should be played is just that: an opinion. If we were going to stop doing things in games that some people dislike, Wavedashing and L-canceling wouldn't be used at all. I'm sorry you don't want to play to win, but I do and will, and you're not changing my mind.
I do play to win but I have too much self dignity to stoop so low as to run out the clock because I know I can't come back. My mindset is that no matter what percent me or my opponent is at, a comeback is always possible, so I'll never resort to a scrub tactic like that. Sorry you don't have enough faith in your own abilities to actually play the game.
 

LancerStaff

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I do agree that Melee's balance isn't too good, no where near brawls level because most of the poor design choices in brawl were intentional due to the fact that sakurai wanted it to be as far away from melee competitively as it could. Rolling has only been useless in comparison to broken mechanics which melee and brawl had.

For final destination to be neutral it would have to not give players an advantages over another due to it's layout, a little mac would counter pick FD because his ground game is used the best on that stage due to lack of platforms same would go for mega man because when on FD you limit your opponents approach options. I personally don't really think that there are any real neutral stages in smash bros. so it's baffling that sakurai would only choose one stage to play on rather than have a pool of stages they deemed legal
You are correct about there not really being a neutral stage. Mac? Mac needs FD. He's barely useful with it. Without, well, lets just say a Mac probably won't be winning any decent sized tournaments any time soon.

Choosing one stage over many was an easy decision for Sakurai. No bickering about X stage being legal, no stage counterpick system or random stage choice online, and balancing for it requires much less playtesting. FD was also the most popular stage in Brawl's online modes and typically the go-to stage in casual-competitive play.

I do play to win but I have too much self dignity to stoop so low as to run out the clock because I know I can't come back. My mindset is that no matter what percent me or my opponent is at, a comeback is always possible, so I'll never resort to a scrub tactic like that. Sorry you don't have enough faith in your own abilities to actually play the game.
I won, fair and square. Game said so. Answer me this: How are your morals any better then a set that declares Wavedashing a scrub tactic? Yours are right, theirs are wrong? Heh.
 

Freezie KO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
248
I just don't like that I can clearly know the other person is going to roll and still not get the punish. I read it as best I can with a smash or other attack, and I still don't get the hit because they activate another roll immediately. It feels like I have a 1 frame window before they can roll again.
 

xExcel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
101
I won, fair and square. Game said so. Answer me this: How are your morals any better then a set that declares Wavedashing a scrub tactic? Yours are right, theirs are wrong? Heh.
It has nothing to do with morals. I'm just not a pathetic loser. Heh.
 

xExcel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
101
"I do play to win but I have too much self dignity..."

Dignity, morals, just a horse of a different color. Since it is indeed about morals, try actually defending your position this time.
I did defend my position in the post that horribly out of context quote is from. try reading it this time k? Or are your reading skills as sad as your mindset?
 

xExcel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
101
Then please explain. How do dignity and morals differ?
It's ironic that you're trying so hard to back me into a corner when the whole reason we're arguing in the first place is that you use and condone trash tactics like running away all game. How bout I ask you a question instead. Why don't you try to make a comeback instead of relying on the clock to save you like a scrub?


By the way, since you don't understand the difference between dignity and morals, morals are the principles of right and wrong, good or bad. Dignity is the state of being worthy of honor or respect, or a sense of pride.

Whether or not rolling all game or running out the clock is RIGHT or WRONG to you, nobody is going to RESPECT that playstyle. Do you understand now or do I have to put it into even simpler terms?
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
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It's ironic that you're trying so hard to back me into a corner when the whole reason we're arguing in the first place is that you use and condone trash tactics like running away all game. How bout I ask you a question instead. Why don't you try to make a comeback instead of relying on the clock to save you like a scrub?


By the way, since you don't understand the difference between dignity and morals, morals are the principles of right and wrong, good or bad. Dignity is the state of being worthy of honor or respect, or a sense of pride.

Whether or not rolling all game or running out the clock is RIGHT or WRONG to you, nobody is going to RESPECT that playstyle. Do you understand now or do I have to put it into even simpler terms?
Why use a worse option when something better presents itself?

So morals are an opinion on what's right or wrong, and dignity is earned/kept by having and using morals that others have. Not exactly unrelated.

You're honestly the first person to make a big stink about this. Even the guy I was fighting, a pro Mario, led off with his "hats off to you" taunt whenever I cheese out a win like usual. I'm sorry, but you acting all high-and-mighty isn't doing a thing for me. I've been lectured much the same way for edgeguarding and shield grabbing, so you should enlighten me how this is any worse.
 
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