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Does melee take more skill?

DonutSD

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
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2
I ran a search for a thread like this and failed.

Anyways, I was arguing with someone about soul calibur and tekken. They said both games required more skill then melee.. is this true? Needless to say I disagreed with them to no end.

Some answers with facts would be helpful. Nothing like "OMGZ MELEE IZ TEH PWNZ! DOSE GAMZ SUK!" If you want to reply make your response as unbiased as possible, use numbers, experiences whatever to back it up.
 

Dav657

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 16, 2008
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Ohio, Lorain/Amherst
Yes melee takes more skill. Am quoting alhpazealot here :)

Originally Posted by AlphaZealot
So, let me get this straight, your comparing a game with preset button combinations to a game where you literally adlib each combo you perform? Let's break it down. To perform a shuffled drill shine you have to press the following button combinations,
-Short Hop, pressing down on X/Y for (in Fox's case) less than 3 frames (you finger must have left the button after 2 frames, or 1/30th of a second).
-Press down+A or down on the C-Stick.
-Press down on the control stick to fast fall the attack.
-L Canceling the Drillkick (you must press L/R/Z 6 frames before hitting the ground, or on the frame you hit the ground, which in total gives you 7 frames or slightly more than 1/6th of a second to hit it).
-The L canceling means the lag after the attack is canceled after 9 frames (instead of 1, meaning 10 frames after the attack is the soonest you can shine, the closer to the 10th frame the better.
-Shine, press down B, it hits on only the first frame, or 1/60th of a second.
-Wavedash out of the shine as soon as possible (after the 4th frame that the shine comes out [IIRC]). To wavedash, press X/Y, followed by L/R and a direction. You must press this before the 4th frame because on the 4th frame Fox leaves the ground and jumps (therefore press L/R within 3 frames or 3/60th's of a second).
-Every wavedash with every character has 10 frames during which you cannot do anything (which is why you can't always attack during a wavedash with characters whose sliding animation ends before the 10 frames of lag is up). After this 10 frames you have to make a decision, all this set of moves did was begin a combo. That's it, and all of this happens in around 1-2 seconds time (the majority of this time is spent before you initiate the drill kick in the air, IE the frames during which you are jumping upwards).

Wow, two buttons certainly can do a lot. Traditional fighters decided to expand on the number of combinations by doing 2 things. 1)added more buttons to the arcade (from 2, to 3, to 4 to 5, to 6 and so forth) and 2) made the buttons combinations longer, essentially just adding to the order of memorized buttons you need to press. Is there frame specific timing required? Not for pulling off combinations, but yes, for some things (for example parrying), you must time things very very precisely. However, the length of time you hold a button has no bearing on anything (for most traditional fighters). In traditional fighters its more a game of rock-paper-scissors on who can predict the other persons button combination and then choosing the best button combination to counter this. You you need to time on button after another? Not really, just enough so that the computer can register a combination as a chain and not two separate actions.
Originally Posted by AlphaZealot
I love the chess versus checkers arguement because of what it implies, simply that with more iterations/branches you can make a game more skillful/complex. This is mostly true, but you cannot apply it to the SSBM versus 3S/GG/what have you.

Smash doesn't work the same way most traditional fighters do. In 3S you have a move or a block to counter a move and not much else. What you lack is freedom of movement, a dimension added in Smash that creates a complexity that simply can't be computed in numbers. Think of all the jukes and fakes that exist in professional sports, these jukes and fakes are essentially what makes a player smart (the ability to predict or the ability to out manuever your opponant).

Now, in most traditional fighters, you don't have movement fakes, you can attempt to get your opponant to wrongly predict a move, but it is only by using other moves that you can do so. In Smash, because of double jumping and wavedashing you have both on the ground movement jukes/feints and in the air jukes/feints. The result, anytime I play 99.998% of the people who own SSBM I will win, usually without losing a single stock. I could actually degrade the game into a SINGLE attack, a simple tilt even, and still win because I can create openings by movement. How can such a concept be represented in numbers? The number and ways to juke can be infinite yet they don't actually take up any buttons (unless you want to use wavedashing, but it doesn't require an attack button).

Even shielding (AKA blocking) in Smash is incredibally complex. For starters, you have two types of shield, light and full. Each type will give you a differant result and will last a certain amount of time (IIRC 5 seconds versus 8 seconds). It not just the shield that matter though, its how you get out of it. The ability to jump cancel the shield added a huge amount of depth to the defensive tactics in Smash. In any other figher you can block until you run out of room, in Smash, it is possible to actually run away from your opponant for an entire match. Think about that for a second. Running away, for an entire match. When you block in any other figher you almost always have to exit the block by attempting to attack/counter the opponant. In Smash you can simply wavedash out of the shield away from them, forgoing the actual fighting until the defender chooses to engage or the offender predicts the opponant correctly.

The mere point I'm trying to make is that citing the number of buttons a game has doesn't give you an accurate representation of all the iterations and possibilities each game has. Hell, I didn't even touch on DI, which again adds a huge amount of depth to play. Imagine if in other fighters you actually had the ability to control you own characters trajectory after recieving an attack. Now imagine you can do this with not one, but two control sticks. Now pretend your the offensive player, do you think you could still land all those combo's (in a traditional fighter) if you didn't know where the opponant would go because he can control his own hit/flight path.
I know looks like tl;dr but trust me read it. Its definitely worth it, especially when someone is arguing that smash isnt a fighting game. Its just isnt a traditional.
 

Qzzy

Smash Journeyman
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Depends on what kind of skills you're talking about, though i'm assuming you mean technical/input skills.

The way the game was made and possibly expected to play, with such simple controls, it can be seen as a very simple skill-less game. No need for quarter cirles just to shoot a laser, you know.

But at competitive play, the community has figured out many techniques that require a lot of technical skill.

Also, your question is a little vague. More skill than what exactly? Than which game? It shouldn't really matter.

Also, I like to think that the technical skill of a game shouldn't determine whether it's good or not. There are many kinds of games that don't require crazy inputs and are very competitive.
 

choknater

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Yes, Melee takes far more skill. I'm a Brawl lover and I love tournaments, but I'm sure anyone would contend that it takes much less skill to get good at than Melee does.
 

chamberlin

Smash Ace
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I've played Melee for 4 years now, and I still haven't mastered some of the advanced techniques. I've played Brawl on and off since it game out, and I can do pretty much anything I want with little effort.

Melee takes more training and skill than Brawl. Brawl = all mind games and prediction.
 

choknater

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Brawl = all mind games and prediction.
Heh, not even. Melee has FAR more capacity to utilize mindgames and prediction.

Brawl's more about spacing and brick-wall strategies. No one likes tripping and messing up, so people just use the cheapest strateigies possible to win. It's just a matter of avoiding them and using your own cheap strategies. Mindgames isn't so much an issue.... Consistency, knowledge, and spacing are.

Just saying. I agree with you that Melee takes much more skill :).
 

pdk

Smash Lord
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topic did not say brawl folks

really you should be asking on somewhere like srk or 8wayrun what the concensus on the other two games is, they'd know better than the land of 2 games here

also AZ is the last person to quote on this, if someone is talking about 'how skillful' a game is and points to more combos vs less combos or canned strings vs 'adlibbing' as he calls it then you shouldn't be wasting your time listening

'you don't have movement fakes' just shows lack of real familiarity with other games in general, but this is 0% surprising in the message board for armchair PhDs on the genre so carry on
 

corhor

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Melee takes alot of skill lol comapred to SC games. My friend has been playing SC forever and my little brother almost beat him the first time he played.
 

Overload

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Melee takes alot of skill lol comapred to SC games. My friend has been playing SC forever and my little brother almost beat him the first time he played.
You realize that proves nothing right?
 

'Fro

Smash Lord
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As a traditional fighting game player as well as a Smasher, I think Alpha Zealot underestimated the freedom you have in certain traditional fighters, particularly 3rd Strike. 3S usually gives quite a bit of freedom, and the best players are the ones who can limit their opponent's options by forcing them into unfavorable situations.

That being said, as far as execution and options go, Melee is fantastic. It trumps Soul Calibur easily as far as that goes. Tekken, on the other hand, requires very precise, frame-perfect execution. It's not an easy game. It does, in the end, revolve around spacing your combo starters to get your huge juggles/ground combos/ whatever, but it's not easy. Let's not forget that wavedashing DID originate in Tekken.

Not saying that Tekken is a better game, though. Melee for life!
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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Winning takes skill. You can't really say that a certain game takes more "skill" then another, imo. Unless the game has some kind of broken unbeatable strat that you can't do anything about regardless of how well you read your opponent (but this obviously isn't the case with smash)
Unless we're talking about tech skill.
and lawl, tekken is far less technical then smash (unless you're playing sheik or something)
 

IrArby

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topic did not say brawl folks

really you should be asking on somewhere like srk or 8wayrun what the concensus on the other two games is, they'd know better than the land of 2 games here

also AZ is the last person to quote on this, if someone is talking about 'how skillful' a game is and points to more combos vs less combos or canned strings vs 'adlibbing' as he calls it then you shouldn't be wasting your time listening

'you don't have movement fakes' just shows lack of real familiarity with other games in general, but this is 0% surprising in the message board for armchair PhDs on the genre so carry on
Seeing as you are apparently so knowledgeable feel free to enlighten us. Maybe we are playing the part of would-be armchair PhD holding Smash enthusiast, but to be a condesending naysayer requires niether knowledge, skill, or ability as you have aptly examplified for us.

I've posed this question to Smashers that play other traditional fighters such as Guilty Gear and Virtual Fighter and they'll tell you that Melee has elements that those fighters can never have. Don't get me wrong, those games are highly technical and require great amounts of skill and reaction but skill is defined by more than efficency and accuracy at pressing a series of buttons.

I myself looked in GG for a little while and its perfectly true that Melee has greater movement capabilities. DI goes along way as do platforms and an ability to move about on stages that have more to offer than different backgrounds. AZ didn't even go in to edgeguarding or for that matter an edge! In GG if you trap someone in a corner they try to perfect shield your attacks and block them while you keep the combo going a maybe mix up the timing a little so they don't perfect shield you all while taking chip damage for blocking. Then theres percentages which affects knockback thus affecting combos and chaingrabs. Oh yeah and teching! The list goes on.

Final proof that Melee involves more knowledge if not neccesarily skill (depending on your definition) compare these two and decide for yourself which sounds more involved.

http://www.dustloop.com/ggac/data/def.html

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749
 

NES n00b

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Which tekken and which soul caliber? I am going to guess tag and three and soul caliber 2. Tekken has alot of excution, but it's offense is very broken. Wavedash to gain invulnerability to attack then tech chase when they get on the ground and they might die. In Soul caliber 2......it is mostly about poking the opponent due to how the defense in that game works.


So eh....I dunno trying to compare 3D games to a 2D game is sort of unfair but I guess I got to give it to Melee though my knoweledge of Melee is much greater than those other games so it is sort of biased..
 

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord
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Canton, Ohio
Well, all the games you're talking about involve many command inputs that are best if performed frame-perfectly (1/60 of a second), and top pros at the game still have room to improve technically. So I think that the argument is null. This is the conclusion me and my tekken friend came to after a lot of arguing.

Also, a good example of melee's tech skill possibilities...

Melee takes alot of skill lol comapred to SC games. My friend has been playing SC forever and my little brother almost beat him the first time he played.
This means nothing.
 

pdk

Smash Lord
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Jul 20, 2006
Messages
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Final proof that Melee involves more knowledge if not neccesarily skill (depending on your definition) compare these two and decide for yourself which sounds more involved.

http://www.dustloop.com/ggac/data/def.html

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749
(i apologize this thing is huge, i forget the tags and junk so if someone knows some way to collapse it that'd be grand)

Shield Stun: When hit by attacks while shielding, you will lag for a number of frames during which you can't do anything. The number of shield stun lag frames varies depending on which character hit you and with what attack, the lag is not based on who you are. This is different from shieldhitstun in that it is the person shielding, not the attacker, that receives the lag.

Smashfest: Smashfests are held by players just looking to play smash with other people. To find out if there are any fests near you check the Regional Zones. Fests are usually held by individual players or there respective crews. There are also events known as biweeklies which are essentially Smashfests every 2 weeks. If you want to get your name out there and become more known in the smash community, fests are the way to do it.

Short Jumping/Hopping (SH): If you tap the jump button quickly, you will do a shorter jump than usual. Short hops actually come out faster than full jumps. This is very useful in quickening the pace and removing vulnerabilities in your character.

Shieldhitstun: When you hit a shield with an attack, you will suffer shieldhitstun. During these frames, you can't do anything.

Sand Bagging: There are essentially two ways players sand bag. The first is when a small amount of money is on the line, where the stronger player may intentionally play poorly in hopes of winning a larger sum of money later on. The second and more common way of sand bagging is when a strong player doesn’t use his best character and intentionally plays poorly during friendly matches, usually to keep the other player from learning his style or to have an excuse for losing later on.

Sex Kick: The nickname given by Matt Deezie's crew to the nair attack of some characters, this nickname has since become common place after several years of usage. It is defined as a kick that sticks out and still hits people even when the foot is no longer moving (Samus, Mario, Doc, Yoshi, etc). Some people use it as a term for all nair’s, although such a reference would be incorrect.

Rising Pound: JiggyPuff’s pound can give horizontal distance with almost no loss in vertical height. To perform it, do the pound, then slide the control stick upward, the effects are quite obvious if it is performed correctly.

Priority: If two attacks come out at the exact same time, they will clank, no matter if it's a jab against a jab, or a jab against a smash. [too long to copy here]

Mind Games: One of the most misunderstood terms within the community. Mind games are first were used to describe a single trick used against an opponent, but have since come to describe how a player thinks during an entire match. [snip]

John's: A john is just an excuse used to make a victory or loss illegitimate because of external or internal factors during a match. Common johns include cell phone distractions, controller “malfunctions”, coughing, talking, itching, and in game suicides.

Infinites: Several characters have infinites, of which none are regularly banned at tournaments except as a means to stall.

Grab/Throw: Press Z, R and A, or L and A to attempt to grab your opponent. After you grab them you can attack them with A, and then throw them by tapping the joystick in the direction you want to throw them. Eventually, they can wriggle free (faster by pressing buttons and moving the joystick/c-stick) so you can't just attack them with A forever. A grab is the only move that is unaffected by shielding (although hitting L/R does reduce the time of the grab).

Hitbox: The area that an attack covers and can deal damage.

BYOC: Stands for “Bring Your Own Controller”. Don’t expect any tournament or Smashfest to provide controllers for you.

[it goes on...]
list is not in any way shape or form padded with special names for things that are simple common sense or not unique (this includes your dear teching)

also the only terms on that short, short primer that are actually guilty gear 'things' and not common to just about any game are dead angle and clean hit; it doesn't even cover stuff you see outlined in the manual for a guilty gear game, not very thorough or specific to GG wouldn't you say

Don't get me wrong, those games are highly technical and require great amounts of skill and reaction but skill is defined by more than efficency and accuracy at pressing a series of buttons.
BINGO, this is why i keep telling you guy it's just silly when you even mention combos or how it takes X frames to do Y trick with fox like in AZ's super duper amazing argument; i thought the idea with depth was what went on in your head and on the screen whenever someone isn't doing a combo, if combos automatically played themselves out then the meat of the game between combos is just about unchanged (yes i know 'but then they'll have to fear every hit at the cost of big damage', they already do since not all big damage combos are impractical)

looking at a list of specific tricks you can do or new names for things that never warranted names before is just as bad as 'it takes 6 buttons so it's deeper', just with more words; the abstract is what makes any game deep, it's like analyzing whether you should pick up the pieces in chess with your index + thumb or all 5 fingers
 

Vect0r

Smash Journeyman
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Melee obviously requires more skill. There's no doubt about it.
But I still happen to like Brawl more ^_^
 

chamberlin

Smash Ace
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Oct 3, 2005
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Little Rock, Arkansas
Heh, not even. Melee has FAR more capacity to utilize mindgames and prediction.
True that... I didn't mean to sound like Brawl was MORE about mindgames, because it isn't. Melee still takes more thought than Brawl.

I was mistaken about what this thread was about when I posted before. Melee takes more skill than MOST fighting games. It takes a long time to master games like Guilty Gear.

If you want my opinion, and I don't know if you do or not, Melee = Guilty Gear > Tekken = Virtua Fighter = SF3.
 

DippnDots

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Alphazealot nails it, love ya man ;0

Smash has the most dimensions, basically, which is why I love it the most.
 

'Fro

Smash Lord
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True that... I didn't mean to sound like Brawl was MORE about mindgames, because it isn't. Melee still takes more thought than Brawl.

I was mistaken about what this thread was about when I posted before. Melee takes more skill than MOST fighting games. It takes a long time to master games like Guilty Gear.

If you want my opinion, and I don't know if you do or not, Melee = Guilty Gear > Tekken = Virtua Fighter = SF3.
Tekken being equal in difficulty to VF is not true, and most fighting game enthusiasts will tell you that. Learning combos is the tip of the iceberg in VF. Leanring everything else (Spacing, timing, frames, etc.) takes much longer, and then the application... ARGH! IT'S TOO MUCH:dizzy:

Tekken is hard execution-wise, but once you learn the combos and the spacing then it's all about who gets their combo starter in 1st.

3S is more of a mental game. It's about forcing your opponent into bad situations so that you have more options where they have less. Educated guesses and frame-based set-ups go a long way in 3S. As far as its mental aspect goes, I would place it equal to Melee.

Giulty Gear I'll stay quiet about, because I have no experience with it on a higher level at all.
 

ranmaru

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I wish I was as good at Guilty Gear as I am in Melee. :3 I have a PS2 and have no Guilty Gear either. : <
 

DonutSD

Smash Rookie
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Oct 28, 2008
Messages
2
Wow didn't expect that many replies xD! Dav's post was really helpful.

Also, definitely should have clarified more when I said which takes more skill. It's a little late to now but I meant pretty much overall skill, mind games, advanced techniques, move execution, learning curve.

I didn't have any facts to support my argument VS the other person this has helped a lot thanks.
 

Dav657

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Wow didn't expect that many replies xD! Dav's post was really helpful.

Also, definitely should have clarified more when I said which takes more skill. It's a little late to now but I meant pretty much overall skill, mind games, advanced techniques, move execution, learning curve.

I didn't have any facts to support my argument VS the other person this has helped a lot thanks.
Melee is more technical overall.
-Sheildstun
-Hitstun
-COMBOS
-L-Canceling

There is alot more, hell I think the orinal smash has more of a challenge than brawl.:ohwell:
 

lordXblade

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Marvel vs. Capcom 2 takes the most technical skill by far, but revolves more around speed and technical ability than hardcore strategy. Third Strike has the largest pool of depth in strategy and mixup, but doesn't require the same level of technical prowess as marvel. Smash is a mesh of the two.

Those 3 games are even IMO in terms of skill. Starcraft ***** the **** out of everything.
 

FunkMaster

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i believe melee is the most complex fighting game out there.

mostly because of the freedom of movement and edgeguarding.

also the stages. as far as I know there aren't many other fighting
games where the stage matters. it's just a background, unlike in smash.

second most complex would go to guilty gear. a lot of stuff in that, though
many people don't play it for some reason and instead go to nonsense like
TEKKEN, SOUL CALIBUR, and STREET FIGHTER.

but smash isn't perfect of course. melee, i mean. the game could be so much
greater if there was more character balance.

whatever yah
 

IrArby

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Wait is Starcraft like way more technical than Warcraft or something? I figured the strategies would be somewhat similar but I never played them that in depth (without using the mouse I should say).
Then again Warcraft has less races. I heard some Korean guy died while playing Starcraft since he wouldn't leave his computer?

It makes sense for Starcraft to be really involved as you're controlling many more people I guess.
 

Prominent

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Because Brawl and Melee share many many similar game aspects, when comparing the two and taking them for what they are Melee takes more skill, quicker reflexes and requires much more from the player than playing Brawl well.

Brawl limits the freedom Melee gave us...and in turn and in comparison Melee takes more skill as people state. Brawl takes a different kind of skill, but is NO WHERE NEAR AS DEMANDING AS MELEE IS. The learning curve is pretty steep.

Brawl made everything difficult to perform in Melee really easy. It almost forces players to play on the same level, making it a huge disappointment for anything competitive. /end thread
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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For the people who say that smash is more skill-demanding then other fighting games, how much do you know about other fighting games? Are you any good at them, have you played anyone who's REALLY good at that game?
Not saying I do, but seriously >.>

EDIT: @ above post... keep brawl out of this thread, lol
 
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