Does Marth have any true disadvantageous matchups?

[Spoice]

The only match ups that I can think of, that aren't in Marth's favour, are puff and Shiek. But from what I've heard, the puff - marth match up is changing pretty quickly and it's going more even or maybe even in marth's favour, and with shiek, I've heard opinions change lately. So what does everyone think, does Marth have any disadvantageous match ups, or is he toe to toe with these two? The way I see it is on certain stages, Marth may have an even match up against these two, but overall it's more even for puff and in Shiek's favour.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Well if marth wins against spaceys outside of fd is pretty arguable. (either side has to admit it's pretty close though) and falcon is kinda a matchup he struggles with. Yoshi is arguable also a bad matchup since marth doesn't really have moves to deal with armor. (But with the limited amount of yoshis around this is mostly speculation)
The rest of marths problems lie in that because of the endlag on all of his moves he has to know the matchup before he wins it and he's more likely than other toptiers to get cheesed. (whereas other toptiers can just wing it against lowtiers with their respective tools a lot easier)
That being said he doesn't have a single terrible matchup.

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't think he has any truly terrible MUs, but here's what I think

Sheik: Until you're super good with Marth (M2K/PPMD/PPU level), this MU is against Marth. I'd say that at most levels of play, it's like 55-45 in Sheiks favor really because she punishes so hard and doesn't struggle too much to land a lot of her attacks.

Falcon: I personally think that this is in Falcon's favor, but barely. I say this really just because he hits and punishes so hard, and his DD makes it tough to catch him in it. Marth's semi-floatiness doesn't help at all either for uair -> knee combos.

Spacies: Roughly even. If you can L-Cancel, DD, and grab well you should be okay. Not saying it's anywhere near being in Marth's favor, but it's very far from being against him.

Puff: Personally, I think it's extremely winnable if you stay patient and just zone her out.

Yoshi: Again, I think it's plenty winnable provided you just zone him out. Some people underestimate the value of zoning and think "Oh, Yoshis a low-tier, this shouldn't be too tough."

 

[Dandy_here]

I don't play Marth in either of those mu's, but they aren't too bad from what I've seen. JesiahTEG, specializes in the Sheik mu.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'm pretty good at the Sheik MU cuz my bro (main training partner), is a Sheik main, but I'm talking about general trends.

 

[Dandy_here]

I'm pretty good at the Sheik MU cuz my bro (main training partner), is a Sheik main, but I'm talking about general trends.

Oh, I think Marth has no truly bad mu's

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't think he has any horrible ones, but I think he struggles vs Falcon and Sheik at most levels. I don't think he has any MUs that are even as bad as 60-40 though

 

[Dandy_here]

I don't think he has any horrible ones, but I think he struggles vs Falcon and Sheik at most levels. I don't think he has any MUs that are even as bad as 60-40 though

That's why I play falcon against Marth sometimes, but I love the ditto because it shows how different everyone's playstyle is. And I really just dislike the Sheik mu.

 

[Dandy_here]

WNY also has a lot of sheiks too. It gets pretty annoying when the entire top is literally just 4 sheiks 2 falcos and 2 foxes.

 

[FE_Hector]

Lol that would make a pretty big difference. NCs top 10 is pretty balanced among top 10, but I don't think we have that many Sheiks. I also haven't really gotten into the scene here too much, but a proliferation of Sheiks would definitely change your views on the MU

 

[Dandy_here]

Lol that would make a pretty big difference. NCs top 10 is pretty balanced among top 10, but I don't think we have that many Sheiks. I also haven't really gotten into the scene here too much, but a proliferation of Sheiks would definitely change your views on the MU

I think the only other person who wins or gets top 8 without spacies or Sheik is JesiahTEG, but he specializes in the Sheik mu so it doesn't count in my mind because he automatically will get top 8. I actually prefer falcon over Marth vs Sheik simply due to falcons punish game, and I hate Sheik dittos, otherwise my fox will come out.

 

[Dandy_here]

But, honestly I just play who ever I feel I want to play as.

 

[FE_Hector]

Lol, makes sense. I'm a strict Marth main, with a pocket Falco that still needs a LOT of work before he's in tournaments. Makes sense to use Falcon vs Sheik imo, they both have crazy techchasing games and hit pretty hard, so I think it would probably be a good match.

 

[Dandy_here]

Lol, makes sense. I'm a strict Marth main, with a pocket Falco that still needs a LOT of work before he's in tournaments. Makes sense to use Falcon vs Sheik imo, they both have crazy techchasing games and hit pretty hard, so I think it would probably be a good match.

I played a few matches against a good Sheik and realized the match up is far better than people go about it. But I just go on how I'm doing that specific day. I have a pretty good falco actually, but I can't stand him.

 

[FE_Hector]

Well, the thing with the Sheik MU is that the play style for it is different than for the rest of Marth's MUs. I'll never say it's unwinnable-- I win it all the time. It's just plain different from his play style the rest of the time, especially cuz you can't chain grab her.

 

[Dandy_here]

Well, the thing with the Sheik MU is that the play style for it is different than for the rest of Marth's MUs. I'll never say it's unwinnable-- I win it all the time. It's just plain different from his play style the rest of the time, especially cuz you can't chain grab her.

Which is also why I don't play the match up. I like to chaingrab things. But as a Sheik player, I can say it doesn't feel the same chain grabbing. It feels real grimmy.

 

[FE_Hector]

I enjoy chain grabbing. It feels nice and I love the practically free damage. If I were to use Sheik, I would enjoy chain grabbing to be honest. Not at all because it proves to you that you're capable of super good techchasing.

 

[Dandy_here]

I enjoy chain grabbing. It feels nice and I love the practically free damage. If I were to use Sheik, I would enjoy chain grabbing to be honest. Not at all because it proves to you that you're capable of super good techchasing.

It feels a little too linear if I am simply going with the trend of Sheik. But, if I gotta play Sheik, I am gonna play Sheik. I play 3 characters to keep things fresh and have a solid counter pick if needed. Solo maining Marth sounds like the struggle sometimes.

 

[FE_Hector]

Uh, it can be a struggle sometimes, but it's not actually horribly difficult. My biggest issue with it right now is that I don't know a lot of MUs due to a lack of tourney experience. I plan on training up my Falco largely due to the fact that sometimes you aren't familiar with a play style. Kinda going for a PPMD-esque kinda thing.

 

[Dandy_here]

Uh, it can be a struggle sometimes, but it's not actually horribly difficult. My biggest issue with it right now is that I don't know a lot of MUs due to a lack of tourney experience. I plan on training up my Falco largely due to the fact that sometimes you aren't familiar with a play style. Kinda going for a PPMD-esque kinda thing.

I actually have practice against ganon, young link, and peach simply because they are characters my friends play, but I don't know too much about Marth vs Falcon in marth's POV.

 

[krazyzyko]

I say puff and sheik win 60-40 and the fast fallers are even.

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't think they're 60-40. I think Marth needs to zone Puff and play Sheik properly. I promise it makes a difference

 

[AirFair]

I have honestly not played any good puffs, so I can't say anything on the puff matchup.

Sheik mu depends on Marth's punishes, and whether he can solidly zone, because sheik combos are pretty bad for marth ( easy ftilt to fair, and dthrow chaingrabs when noobs di away)

Spacies are proabably 50/50 the way I see it, because all 3 characters have good tools against each other.

I would say that the Falcon mu is in Falcon's favor. Falcon has good neutral and punishes against Marth, but Marth also has punishes on him, so it just depends.

 

[vexoskeleton]

id agree the only two match ups that aren't even or better when you know them are shiek and falcon. Even shiek i think is 45/55 cause if you just know what to do and not do it becomes an even matchup while I feel falcon is a slightly more losing battle due to his speed but if you can get a falcon off stage they should be dying which isn't too hard when he has to approach when not at an advantage in terms of stock/percent

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

The problem with match-ups is everyone has a different opinion and experience with the match-up since we all play different people/styles/skill levels and other players experiences may differ from ours. With that said, I've read a lot about Marth's match-ups, on what he wins and doesn't and have talked to ranked players in my region(NorCal), this is what I've come up with:

[ vs Fox] - 50/50 - A lot of people will argue slightly Fox or slightly Marth, but this match-up is even.
[ vs Falco] - 50/50 - Another match-up that's even.

questionable match-ups* - These are match-ups that people say Marth wins or it's even, but honestly it is only that if the Marth knows what they are doing, and is capable of changing up their playstyle, otherwise they are not going to be in your favor( That kind of goes for any match-up tbh, but especially these)

*[ vs Peach] 60/40 - According to a lot people. Like I said above you really need to understand Peach and how she works and adjust your playstyle accordingly or you will have a hard time with her.

*[ vs Sheik] 50/50 - Most people recently have been claiming that this match-up is even, but unless you're at a fairly high level of skill and understand how fight Sheik perfectly this will be a losing match-up for most Marths mains. She is able to punish Marth very easily for messing up or being careless and her punish game is fairly simple to execute.

*[ vs Puff] 55/50? - Don't exact numbers, but just like the Peach match-up most people tell you Marth wins when there is hardly any evidence to support that. I don't have enough experience to tell you who wins or should win, but let me just tell you it is not easy match-up at all. You have to play very safe and patient and if lose your patience you will not have a fun time.

*[ vs Falcon] 50/50 - Yet another match-up that people will say is slightly in Marth or Falcon's favor. Which leads me to believe that it's 50/50. Falcon can punish the crap out of Marth, so it's another match-up where Marth has to play carefully and really abuse his Neutral game to make sure he doesn't get wrecked.

Out of the high tier characters Marth undoubtedly struggles with the most low tier characters. Some of the most difficult ones will be:

Yoshi
Pikachu
Link
Young Link

 

[-ACE-]

tl;dr

Marth's hardest matchup, as with almost every other character, is a top level fox. Fox's hardest matchup is marth on FD, and no one has a punish game on fox like marth (imo), but at top level getting grabs is ridiculously tough, even if you master all the cc/asdi tricks.

Next is sheik. Sheiks punishes will essentially never get whiffed. They require 1/10th the effort as top tier marth punishes. Still a very doable matchup.

Falco takes arguably even more patience and precision than with fox/falcon, but once you learn how to properly deal with lasers, marth has an easier time setting the pace of the neutral game than he does vs fox.

Marth beats puff. ground game, patience, DD, fair. End of story. Just don't get greedy.

Everyone else, abuse marth's ground game/dd, don't get greedy, space them out completely (mostly with intelligent fair walls and tipper dtilt/dd grabs/pivot grabs.... same applies to falcon but gl keeping him at bay), and know your matchup specifics. Utilize proper zoning and stage control. Pressure HARD but as safely as possible. Think grabs and gimps. Marth wins.

 

[FE_Hector]

tl;dr

Marth's hardest matchup, as with almost every other character, is a top level fox. Fox's hardest matchup is marth on FD, and no one has a punish game on fox like marth (imo), but at top level getting grabs is ridiculously tough, even if you master all the cc/asdi tricks.

Next is sheik. Sheiks punishes will essentially never get whiffed. They require 1/10th the effort as top tier marth punishes. Still a very doable matchup.

Falco takes arguably even more patience and precision than with fox/falcon, but once you learn how to properly deal with lasers, marth has an easier time setting the pace of the neutral game than he does vs fox.

Marth beats puff. ground game, patience, DD, fair. End of story. Just don't get greedy.

Everyone else, abuse marth's ground game/dd, don't get greedy, space them out completely (mostly with intelligent fair walls and tipper dtilt/dd grabs/pivot grabs.... same applies to falcon but gl keeping him at bay), and know you're matchup specifics. Utilize prettier zoning and stage control. Pressure HARD but as safely as possible. Think grabs and gimps. Marth wins.

tl;dr. If you're not greedy, he has no really crappy MUs

 

[The24thGanondorf]

Oh, I think Marth has no truly bad mu's

He's really good at long range because of his tipper effect, which is really good for spacing.