Does Link Hard-Counter Mega Man?

[BBC7]

Is it just me, or is Link a pretty terrible MU for Mega Man? He can literally just stand in one place to make your Jab/F-Tilt/Nair, Neutral B and Side B obsolete. Down B doesn't fare much better in dealing with Link(arrows can pass through your leaves and hit you at times). To actually deal some damage to Link, you need to get into the fight using your melee attacks, which are all pretty punishable on block and will probably be expected, and Link deals some pretty harsh damage on punish. The best I find you can do is 1. Just use the lemons until Link loses patience, which doesn't happen too frequently against very skilled players or 2. Try to space yourself for grabs, and punish any of Link's grab attempts.

On a more positive note, Mega Man finds himself at a big advantage when Link is trying to recover. This helps Mega Man get his grab game going and it also helps to get some Smashes in, mainly U-Smash and F-Smash, although D-Smash is also viable if you are certain you can land it. Link also can't block projectiles in the air, so you can Side B him and try to gimp his recovery or get him to the edge so you can position yourself for an attack. Still, Mega Man has a hard time dishing out enough pain to get Link in this situation for aforementioned reasons.

What do you feel? This is just based off the demo, I don't have the full game because I do not have a Japanese 3DS. This could just be my personal vendetta towards Link shining, or it could be a legitimate issue with the match-ups.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

If Mega Man stands there pressing A, he has basically the same advantage. A will nullify basically any incoming projectile. Link's shield is a nifty thing to have, but I'm not sure how people think he could realistically stand in one spot literally doing nothing. If Link is trying to keep his distance, he's still going to need to be constantly pulling out and throwing projectiles to deal damage, so I don't see a huge advantage.

 

[Zaprong]

Yeah, and the only projectile Megaman can't eliminate is the bombs, which takes it's time to pull out while megaman can just
DownTilt


also lol there is no middleground option in the polls

 

[BBC7]

Yep, I realized after I remembered 50/50 matchups are possible. I feel like an idiot now, although it's too late to change it so I guess I'll just record any 50/50 votes manually.

 

[IsmaR]

Hardly.

Any character that gets killed by being shot/'jab'd" once off stage does not a hard counter make.

Additionally, Mega Man has NO trouble racking up damage. Metal Blades nor Leaf Shield don't get blocked, and all other projectiles work to stall Link or if he decides to shield, make him susceptible to other hits. Even then, projectiles aren't the only thing in Mega Man's repertoire.

The only thing that's even slightly jarring is the fact that Forward Smash becomes much harder to use effectively.

 

[Ragna22]

Megaman has the projectile advantage, Link has the close range advantage so it all comes down to who's the smarter player.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Link's shield is completely negligible and I'm not sure why people seem to think it is so incredible against Mega Man. It might save Link from a few weak hits but overall, it doesn't really lopside the fight against Mega.

 

[Ganreizu]

Metal Blades nor Leaf Shield don't get blocked

Both metal blades and leaf shield don't get blocked.

Additionally, Mega Man has NO trouble racking up damage

and all other projectiles work to stall Link or if he decides to shield, make him susceptible to other hits. Even then, projectiles aren't the only thing in Mega Man's repertoire.

It's true megaman has no trouble racking damage...when his projectiles are useful.

The shield basically makes it so megaman has to either not use projectiles, which is almost his entire moveset, or use his projectiles from angles that link can conveniently cover with his own.

The only thing that's even slightly jarring is the fact that Forward Smash becomes much harder to use effectively.

It's not simply harder, it's basically invalidated when link is on the ground and in the air mega probably has better gimp/kill options. I don't think it's possible to hit link with any charge of fsmash when he's standing. Link's shield is certainly a powerful option against him, but he doesn't really get anything out of it at the same time.

I think the match-up is probably fine, but it seems like it depends more on the megaman and what he does than it does on link. I don't even think rush cancelling is a viable tech to use on link because he doesn't have many light hitstun moves that he uses for combos.

 

[BBC7]

I thought Metal Blades did get blocked by the shield...I even tested it out and they got blocked.

*EDIT* Ignore this post, Metal Blades do in fact bypass the shield. Maybe my opinions on the match-up will change, heh.

 

[Ganreizu]

I thought Metal Blades did get blocked by the shield...I even tested it out and they got blocked.

What about from a diagonal angle?

On the upside...leaf shield is probably really strong (or, well, stronger) against link, even the custom options.

 

[Mega Hawlucha]

I thought Metal Blades did get blocked by the shield...I even tested it out and they got blocked.

*EDIT* Ignore this post, Metal Blades do in fact bypass the shield. Maybe my opinions on the match-up will change, heh.

You need to crouch to block the Metal Blades.

 

[BBC7]

That makes sense, and further proves my point that projectiles suck against Turtle Links. As I've seen in this thread though, there seem to be ways to counter Turtle Links that make the match-up just unfavorable, and not a hard-counter. No one seems to think Link is a hard-counter anyways.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Just remember that Link, like most projectile characters, is good at controlling space horizontally, but doesn't have the ability to challenge Mega Man diagonally, and smart Mega Man players can use this to their advantage and make Link do things that he doesn't do normally. Link still has plenty of stuff that can help him win the matchup, but it's not as simple as just standing there.

 

[Tornado_Man]

I'm pretty sure Mega Man can slide under Link's chain-grab, so there's something

 

[Fenrir VII]

Just going to come out and say "so what if Link can block projectiles?"

It's not a reflector, so it's not like you're getting punished for shooting at him anyway... so all it really does is stall the match a bit.
I'm racking my brain for a way that Link can bypass just jab spam + aerial coverage... assuming the Mega player jabs smartly, it stops link from doing any moves, so with that plus run away pivot jab and mixup grabs... Link is going to have a seriously hard time approaching (and he has to) in this matchup. If Link jumps, to my knowledge, he has almost nothing that can bypass the fair+usmash coverage (which has incredible priority).

Then once Link is offstage, Mega edgeguarding him is pretty cut and paste, honestly... fair, bair, jab, dair, fsmash, metal blade are all viable for different situations, so just go nuts.

imo, Link has issues killing Mega. Nair/bair gimps work, but Link has to guess right, as MM has a pretty adaptable recovery (and if he misses, he's likely dying). Link's usmash is actually a really good killer, but A) MM is heavy and B) MM can rush cancel out of it. So essentially he's relying on a random hit projectile into killmove... while you're just annoying him with the pew pew.

I'm going to go against the grain and say this is pretty heavily in Mega's favor at this point.


(I'm worried about how Fox is going to be though)

 

[Brendan Stepladder]

Since Link has to stand still or crouch to block projectiles, that means that Megaman players can try to fool Links into standing still , only to mix it up with melee attacks.

 

[Blade Knight]

Overall, I feel this matchup is stilted against Mega Man, but not severely so. Our aerial options have surprisingly long range and are very viable agianst his kit. The Crash Bomber, while not as good of a pressure tool as it is vs. most of the cast, still forces him to either stand still, or take damage, which can be used to close in. I believe Metal Blades and grabs are very important to this matchup, since Metal Blades deal decent damage and piece the hylian shield, and Link's air speed isn't the best, so grabs and throws set up Hard Knuckle pretty well after enough practice.

Also, Mega Upper is hilarious in this matchup. Use it to punish or trade vs. Link's who try to drop down using Down air or forward air and KO them at low%'s.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

Just going to come out and say "so what if Link can block projectiles?"

It's not a reflector, so it's not like you're getting punished for shooting at him anyway... so all it really does is stall the match a bit.
I'm racking my brain for a way that Link can bypass just jab spam + aerial coverage... assuming the Mega player jabs smartly, it stops link from doing any moves, so with that plus run away pivot jab and mixup grabs... Link is going to have a seriously hard time approaching (and he has to) in this matchup. If Link jumps, to my knowledge, he has almost nothing that can bypass the fair+usmash coverage (which has incredible priority).

Then once Link is offstage, Mega edgeguarding him is pretty cut and paste, honestly... fair, bair, jab, dair, fsmash, metal blade are all viable for different situations, so just go nuts.

imo, Link has issues killing Mega. Nair/bair gimps work, but Link has to guess right, as MM has a pretty adaptable recovery (and if he misses, he's likely dying). Link's usmash is actually a really good killer, but A) MM is heavy and B) MM can rush cancel out of it. So essentially he's relying on a random hit projectile into killmove... while you're just annoying him with the pew pew.

I'm going to go against the grain and say this is pretty heavily in Mega's favor at this point.


(I'm worried about how Fox is going to be though)

I agree with most of that. Standing there only works if Link has a significant lead, and even then it's not as though Link has a great defensive game like Zelda or Olimar to stuff approaches.

Link's air attacks lack the range of Fair, but they do start up much quicker, so with smart play Link can use his aerials to approach. His projectiles could also create an opening. As for killing, his dash attack will work on a hard read. Ftilt should work too. He may have some jab canceled combos that could work, and jab is an all around useful tool. In terms of recovery, Link's chain should be much more viable of an option with the new ledge grab options. Once people start mixing it up more, Link's recovery will still be subpar, but not horrid.

Overall, I wouldn't say the match is heavily in MM's favor, but it probably leans towards him. I'd be pretty shocked if Link hard countered anyone based on what I've seen. He has a few nice improvements, but a lot of the flaws he had in Brawl are still there.

 

[TypePositive]

From playing the demo all I've managedto conclude is that mega is really, really good at killing link AI. I think it'll be fine.

 

[BBC7]

I've actually played against my friends who use Link, I no longer consider Link a hard match-up. I actually realized something funny. If anyone is shutting off each other's movesets, it's probably Mega Man shutting off Link. With just the Jab, Mega Man can counter:

• Neutral B: This is kind of a grey area. Sometimes, the jab will beat the arrow. Sometimes, it won't. I believe this is mostly a percentage thing and keeping yourself at low percents will help you beat the arrows.

• Side B: From what I've seen, Jab has no issue beating the Boomerang. It's easy to see coming as well.

• Up B: Up B's range can't compete with Jab's range, and it is an ineffective aerial approach because of the helpless state.

• F-Tilt: Can't compete with Jab Range

• D-TIlt: Can't compete with Jab Range

• U-Tilt: Can't compete with Jab Range

• F-Smash: Can't compete with Jab Range

• D-Smash: Can't compete with Jab Range

• U-Smash: Can't compete with Jab Range

• Jab: Can't compete with Jab Range

Not to mention that the Metal Blade and Leaf Shield do an even better job of fighting the projectiles, since Metal Blade passes through the projectiles(as does Leaf Shield), and Leaf Shield can destroy Link's Down B. Not to mention that Metal Blade will actually hit a standing Link.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I seriously think a Mega Man that only uses Jab, Usmash, Fair/Bair, and Metal Blade would be a NIGHTMARE for Link. Glad to see people coming around here.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

I've actually played against my friends who use Link, I no longer consider Link a hard match-up. I actually realized something funny. If anyone is shutting off each other's movesets, it's probably Mega Man shutting off Link. With just the Jab, Mega Man can counter:

• Neutral B: This is kind of a grey area. Sometimes, the jab will beat the arrow. Sometimes, it won't. I believe this is mostly a percentage thing and keeping yourself at low percents will help you beat the arrows.

• Side B: From what I've seen, Jab has no issue beating the Boomerang. It's easy to see coming as well.

• Up B: Up B's range can't compete with Jab's range, and it is an ineffective aerial approach because of the helpless state.

• F-Tilt: Can't compete with Jab Range

• D-TIlt: Can't compete with Jab Range

• U-Tilt: Can't compete with Jab Range

• F-Smash: Can't compete with Jab Range

• D-Smash: Can't compete with Jab Range

• U-Smash: Can't compete with Jab Range

• Jab: Can't compete with Jab Range

Not to mention that the Metal Blade and Leaf Shield do an even better job of fighting the projectiles, since Metal Blade passes through the projectiles(as does Leaf Shield), and Leaf Shield can destroy Link's Down B. Not to mention that Metal Blade will actually hit a standing Link.

Pretty sure percentage has nothing to do with arrows. It's more likely that they have higher durability when charged. Assuming all of Link's movesare going to be shut down by pellets is as silly as assuming Link could stand there doing nothing and win.

 

[GHNeko]

...are people only approaching this conversation with the default moveset?

Doesnt the Hyper Bomb have an AoE/explosive effect that cant be blocked by the shield? And if it cant, doesnt it come from...you know, above?

And what about Shadow Blade? IIRC, it doesnt disappear on block, so it can still hit link in the back, no? And if it does, it can still be shot diagonally.

Also, the shield doesnt protect Link's head when standing/crouching right? You can still pop him in the head lol.

 

[Thani]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have seen a few people say elsewhere on these forum that the Hylian Shield can now also keep blocking as far as Link walking at full speed (but not when running), as he still holds the shield in front of him while walking. Is this true, and if so, isn't that something to be taken in consideration?

 

[BBC7]

...are people only approaching this conversation with the default moveset?

Doesnt the Hyper Bomb have an AoE/explosive effect that cant be blocked by the shield? And if it cant, doesnt it come from...you know, above?

And what about Shadow Blade? IIRC, it doesnt disappear on block, so it can still hit link in the back, no? And if it does, it can still be shot diagonally.

Also, the shield doesnt protect Link's head when standing/crouching right? You can still pop him in the head lol.

Given how new the game is and the fact that a metagame has yet to develop, it is fair to assume that Custom Moves will be banned unless said otherwise by tournament rules.

That being said, you actually can hit Link's head with a well-timed Nair.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have seen a few people say elsewhere on these forum that the Hylian Shield can now also keep blocking as far as Link walking at full speed (but not when running), as he still holds the shield in front of him while walking. Is this true, and if so, isn't that something to be taken in consideration?

It is, although I doubt many Mega Man players will fall for it unless Link is very, very close. (In which case, the Mega Man player should probably try a different method of approach). If a Link is just walking and blocking your shots, chances are you should stop shooting.

 

[「 Derk 」]

If Link counters Mega Man it won't be because of his shield. Although this puts the odds in his favor even more there is no reason for Link to idle in place when he has more projectiles that are faster and cancel out Mega Man's projectiles. Boomerang cancels out Mega Man's sticky bomb and metal blade. Link's arrows do the same and when charged it cancels Mega Man's move and continues to go forward to hit for damage. Link also has a 3rd projectile, bombs, which he can freely use 2 at a time. Link wins the projectile war easy if default movesets are being used. If that was not enough pressure to deal with Link has yet another advantage with the Z-air to cancel projectiles and space Mega Man out. Mega Man does have that annoying mega buster though.

Custom moves could be a completely different story. I am stuck with the demo until next week so I don't have access to test how Link and Mega Man's customs collide and cancel each other. I doubt it would be a huge difference to overcome the number advantage Link has though.

 

[TypePositive]

Doesn't the sweet spotted buster get through links shield? I've honestly never seen link's shield stop more than one pellet. I'll have to see how actual people play buffed up link once the game comes out, but from playing the demo, megaman isn't reliant on his specials at all. I think it's a non issue

 

[EvergreenChameleon]

If Link counters Mega Man it won't be because of his shield. Although this puts the odds in his favor even more there is no reason for Link to idle in place when he has more projectiles that are faster and cancel out Mega Man's projectiles. Boomerang cancels out Mega Man's sticky bomb and metal blade. Link's arrows do the same and when charged it cancels Mega Man's move and continues to go forward to hit for damage. Link also has a 3rd projectile, bombs, which he can freely use 2 at a time. Link wins the projectile war easy if default movesets are being used. If that was not enough pressure to deal with Link has yet another advantage with the Z-air to cancel projectiles and space Mega Man out. Mega Man does have that annoying mega buster though.

Custom moves could be a completely different story. I am stuck with the demo until next week so I don't have access to test how Link and Mega Man's customs collide and cancel each other. I doubt it would be a huge difference to overcome the number advantage Link has though.

Why Megaman would bother trying to spam his B projectiles at range against any other character is beyond me. He's infinitely more effective at medium range. In any case, Link's range game is not nearly as effective against Megaman as you suggest, since Megaman can cancel all of Link's projectiles with his buster whilst simultaneously moving forward, throw metal blades diagonally from the air, slide under arrows, etc. You have to be -really- incompetent as a Megaman player to hope to win a match up against Link by standing at distance and hurling crash bombs and metal blades at him. You want to come forward with the buster instead and jab away just at the edge of its range, which comes out far faster than any of Link's distance moves and forces him to try to approach (a difficult task given Megaman's aerial coverage).

 

[Nu~]

Why Megaman would bother trying to spam his B projectiles at range against any other character is beyond me. He's infinitely more effective at medium range. In any case, Link's range game is not nearly as effective against Megaman as you suggest, since Megaman can cancel all of Link's projectiles with his buster whilst simultaneously moving forward, throw metal blades diagonally from the air, slide under arrows, etc. Link also has a really difficult time approaching, between Megaman's constant jabs and his aerial coverage.

You do realize that a link player won't just stand there shooting arrows and throwing his boomerang right? They constantly move around the stage, hitting the opponent with the boomerang from different angles, and use arrows to apply pressure from different parts of the stage. Unless that megaman has pinpoint aim and super human reflexes, he isn't stopping link's entire arsenal with one move.

 

[TypePositive]

The buster has a tendency to stop whatever link is doing if it hits and can be used walking, standing, and jumping. you don't need pinpoint aim. I can't say how the meta game will look, but i know that mega wreaks link with just a wall of pellets and fairs for a while.

 

[EvergreenChameleon]

You do realize that a link player won't just stand there shooting arrows and throwing his boomerang right? They constantly move around the stage, hitting the opponent with the boomerang from different angles, and use arrows to apply pressure from different parts of the stage. Unless that megaman has pinpoint aim and super human reflexes, he isn't stopping link's entire arsenal with one move.

Obviously. I was replying to someone else's comment, where it was claimed that Link had an obvious advantage over Megaman due to the fact that his projectiles could be used to cancel out Megaman's crash bomb and metal blade. Neither character wants or needs to get into a situation where they're trading long distance projectiles, so the outcome of such a hypothetical match is irrelevant.