Blixen
Smash Cadet
Does the Smash 4 community think should get nerfed?
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Cloud is not the best character in the game though, that would prolly be bayonetta/Diddy. And not every competitive player looks to have the highest absolute optimal chance at winning because it doesn't suit them and it's predictable and beatable.It'd be nice, but it's too late to save the competitive spirit of the roster. It would take too many nerfs to make him a skill based character.
High level smash is a gentleman's club that would all be playing Cloud if they didn't realize that they need viewers to make a buck or two playing this game. They bust their butts playing characters without invisible disjointed circumferential hitboxes with no lag so the few people who think this game isn't busted keep watching.
I'd nerf bayo's hitboxes on witch twist and ABK and dABK. and make witch twist startup later. Maybe reduce Diddy's Fair and Dtilt hitbox size slightly as well.Some things to keep in mind: When game developers balance games, they generally don't just balance for the top 50 or top 100 players, but rather aimed at higher levels of play that also helps make lower levels of play more enjoyable. So, maybe for like top 3% or so. At those levels of play Cloud is definitely too strong (and, let's be fair, even players like ZeRo think Cloud is super strong, so it's not like Cloud is bad at top levels of play). Cloud is a significant issue for many high tier characters and mid tier characters, so nerfing him a bit would likely make it a bit easier to play characters such as Ness, Pac-Man, and Yoshi.
Bayonetta and Diddy Kong should be nerfed as well. Sheik is less of an issue for top 3% players, but she's an issue for players higher up, and if Cloud, Bayonetta, and Diddy Kong get nerfed then Sheik should get some nerfs too. These nerfs do not have to be drastic, and chances are those characters will remain top tier and maybe even top 5.
Cloud does not need a nerf. He's great in doubles, but honestly not the best in singles.It'd be nice, but it's too late to save the competitive spirit of the roster. It would take too many nerfs to make him a skill based character.
High level smash is a gentleman's club that would all be playing Cloud if they didn't realize that they need viewers to make a buck or two playing this game. They bust their butts playing characters without invisible disjointed circumferential hitboxes with no lag so the few people who think this game isn't busted keep watching.
Shiek and Diddy also do not need nerfs. Shiek has no kill confirms, so even though she can rack up damage, it's usually to her detriment, especially against Cloud, as he builds up rage and juggles her to death by 90%.Bayonetta and Diddy Kong should be nerfed as well. Sheik is less of an issue for top 3% players, but she's an issue for players higher up, and if Cloud, Bayonetta, and Diddy Kong get nerfed then Sheik should get some nerfs too. These nerfs do not have to be drastic, and chances are those characters will remain top tier and maybe even top 5.
In a game with 58 character (55 if you disregard Miis) some characters are likely to be too strong and some characters are likely to be too weak. Cloud is likely top 5 in singles, and he tends to be a significant issue for a large portion of the cast. Nerfing Cloud would make a lot of characters more viable. I bet a lot of players would like to play some character but decide not to simply because of Cloud.Cloud does not need a nerf. He's great in doubles, but honestly not the best in singles.
Sheik is probably top 3, and her MU chart is amazing.Shiek and Diddy also do not need nerfs.
Didd is also probably top 3, and his MU chart is amazing. Nerfing him would probably increase the amount of variety in tournament characters. It's not like they need to nerf him hard in order to make him a bit more balanced.And sure, Diddy is a good character, but he's not broken. Learn the matchup, enjoy the game.
We shouldn't nerf to make other characters better. We should nerf to make sure every character's design is healthy. Same for the opposite.In a game with 58 character (55 if you disregard Miis) some characters are likely to be too strong and some characters are likely to be too weak. Cloud is likely top 5 in singles, and he tends to be a significant issue for a large portion of the cast. Nerfing Cloud would make a lot of characters more viable. I bet a lot of players would like to play some character but decide not to simply because of Cloud.
Sheik is probably top 3, and her MU chart is amazing.
Didd is also probably top 3, and his MU chart is amazing. Nerfing him would probably increase the amount of variety in tournament characters. It's not like they need to nerf him hard in order to make him a bit more balanced.
How common a character is also relevant. If a character is a bit too strong but really rare, then nerfing that character likely won't do much to increase character variety. Take Olimar, for instance. Let's say that Olimar is secretly a top 5 character. Nerfing Olimar wouldn't really help that much, since he's rarely played. Meanwhile, Diddy Kong and Cloud are fairly common characters, so nerfing them would actually help a lot.
Good game balance will need some nerfs and buffs. League of Legends and Dota 2 have been out for years, yet they still nerf the best characters and buff the weaker characters. Overwatch, too, has fairly frequent balance changes. Nerfs are an important part of balancing, without them we'll see major power creep. The game still has a lot of balance issues, so having more patches would be welcome (as long as the balancing is reasonable). Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Bayonetta have all been nerfed, yet they still remain top 3/top 5, thus proving that they were not overnerfed.
Why not do both?We shouldn't nerf to make other characters better. We should nerf to make sure every character's design is healthy.
You won't have to if the design aspect is fine.Why not do both?
Every character being strong is ideal. Ideally, every character should be strong, but not too strong, and not too weak either. It can be hard to balance, especially in a game with 55-58 characters, so we'll probably never get a truly balanced game. Still, there are some outliers who could be toned down, and then a few characters buffed (although at this point I'd be careful with buffing, it's easy to overbuff, see: Marth/Lucina/Mewtwo).You won't have to if the design aspect is fine.
Every character being strong means every character will have the tools to successfully battle their greatest demons.
Nah it's just people are tooooo picky of what they think balance should be. As long as characters are able to overcome their bad MUs, all is gravy. Slightly overpowered characters didn't keep games like ST, MvC2, USF4, KoF 98, 02, XI, Vsav, etc... from being successful competitive games.Every character being strong is ideal. Ideally, every character should be strong, but not too strong, and not too weak either. It can be hard to balance, especially in a game with 55-58 characters, so we'll probably never get a truly balanced game. Still, there are some outliers who could be toned down, and then a few characters buffed (although at this point I'd be careful with buffing, it's easy to overbuff, see: Marth/Lucina/Mewtwo).
Anyway. I certainly understand where people who are against nerfs come from. However, just buffing and never nerfing is likely to lead to power creep.
Smash 4 is better at version 1.1.6 than it was on 1.1.5, and 1.1.5 was better than 1.1.4. If so, then couldn't 1.1.7 be a better version than 1.1.6? If it turns out that 1.1.6 is the final version, then that's not too bad, but I think it could be improved, which includes nerfs to some characters.Nah it's just people are tooooo picky of what they think balance should be. As long as characters are able to overcome their bad MUs, all is gravy. Slightly overpowered characters didn't keep games like ST, MvC2, USF4, KoF 98, 02, XI, Vsav, etc... from being successful competitive games.
A buff to his Ftilt (slightly less endlag), Neutral B (less endlag) and slightly better Up-B.Smash 4 is better at version 1.1.6 than it was on 1.1.5, and 1.1.5 was better than 1.1.4. If so, then couldn't 1.1.7 be a better version than 1.1.6? If it turns out that 1.1.6 is the final version, then that's not too bad, but I think it could be improved, which includes nerfs to some characters.
We should also remember that balance changes don't have to be only buffs and nerfs. Perhaps Cloud could get some buffs to partly make up for the nerfs? What kind of buffs would you guys want to see (if we assume there'd also be some nerfs to make him overall slightly weaker).
Eh, Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, and Diddy Kong have all been nerfed in the past, and they're still top tier. Mewtwo and Marth (and Lucina, if you consider her top tier) got buffed a bit too much and are top tier as a result. I'm a bit worried the same might happen to other characters that are buffed. What if Link were buffed before Civil War, and he then ended up in top 10?I anticipate a kinda hard nerf based on how people feel about top tiers
I disagree. In Smash 4 I think the majority of the cast are actually pretty strong. Buffing characters can really upset the balance, so they should be careful. I do believe that some characters, such as King Dedede and Jigglypuff, should be buffed a bit, although they should not overdo it.I think what would be more important is who would we buff since there are more weak characters than strong ones.
(Not counting miis) Are all characters that have "secondary-required" MUs. They all need some serious buffing and I'd even argue and needs some slight buffs.Eh, Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, and Diddy Kong have all been nerfed in the past, and they're still top tier. Mewtwo and Marth (and Lucina, if you consider her top tier) got buffed a bit too much and are top tier as a result. I'm a bit worried the same might happen to other characters that are buffed. What if Link were buffed before Civil War, and he then ended up in top 10?
Has any character in Smash 4 been overnerfed, really*?
*Not counting transition from Brawl to Smash 4.
I disagree. In Smash 4 I think the majority of the cast are actually pretty strong. Buffing characters can really upset the balance, so they should be careful. I do believe that some characters, such as King Dedede and Jigglypuff, should be buffed a bit, although they should not overdo it.