Do you feel guilty?

[|RK|]

Right, so what gives him the right to complain about any character being cheap?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Right, so what gives him the right to complain about any character being cheap?

What gives anybody the right to complain about any character in a game where anybody can choose any character?

I didn't play MK in Brawl, but I never complained about him... I actively chose not to play him, so I had no right to judge (smarter) players who did.

And let's be honest.... Lucario isn't Brawl MK. Lol

 

[_Nives_]

No

Coming back thanks to aura feel so good =D

 

[Loota]

No

Coming back thanks to aura feel so good =D

And yeah, why should I? Some people get mad way too easily after they think they've clearly been outplaying Lucario until he hits 100% and start losing after that. I can't assume everyone knows how aura works but I'm already dead tired of the whining. Oh well, I guess it's an occupational hazard I'll just have to endure.

 

[Pitbuller26]

And yeah, why should I? Some people get mad way too easily after they think they've clearly been outplaying Lucario until he hits 100% and start losing after that. I can't assume everyone knows how aura works but I'm already dead tired of the whining. Oh well, I guess it's an occupational hazard I'll just have to endure.

iPK got second at a Smash 4 tournament, more Lucario crying is happening.

 

[RT]

Delicious tears.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

smash 4 is a fun game

 

[RT]

I think you're missing the point of Lucario's gimmick.

He does low damage output and can't kill when at low percents. Once he has high damage, he has high damage output and can kill very easily. How do you stop him? Kill him before he becomes a threat. It's not a design flaw, it is working as intended. He follows high risk-high reward gameplay. Again, how many times have you been killed by a Lucario that is at 0% 30%? How many times have you survived against a low percent Lucario that hits you with fresh Fsmash and it doesn't kill even past 100%? Aura goes both ways, but people conveniently forget the low percent parts...

It's almost like you should...counterpick a different character (he has bad matcuhups *gasp*) or stage to beat him.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[delete] [delete]

 

[RT]

I'm curious, would you argue that Fox shine in Melee was unbalanced? Because it was literal death for most characters that got hit by it off stage.

I've tried killing people at 100+% with a fresh Fsmash after respawning and they've survived. So again, Aura goes both ways. Doing a 5 hit aerial combo at low percents gives you a mediocre 20% damage. Most characters can do that much with two hits at ANY percent. It's a double-edge sword that cuts both ways, but again, people never seem to care about the low percent side...hmm...

Other characters have more ridiculous kill moves at any percent vs Lucario only getting them at high percents. Falcon Knee? PK Thunder2? Aura is a gimmick and a defining character trait, just like the other moves I listed.

I totally agree that the Aura mechanic will never truly be balanced, but only because it's current design lends itself to not be balanced. I can think of other ways to make it more balanced, but people need to deal with it and move on and stop crying. Not too many people play Lucario, and when you meet one, just know what you are up against and what to exploit.

 

[Croi]

In the second match of this video I hit Ganondorf sixteen times and he didn't even break 100%.

But we're getting rewarded for playing badly and that's what's important at the end of the day.

 

[RT]

Shhh, you're not allowed to talk about Lucario when he has low percent and are doing good.

Bad players only plz

 

[Fenrir VII]

Nobody complains about chars like Marth and Megaman who can edgeguard gimp chars at 50% or less... or those with a spike that does the same thing. I truthfully don't see the difference except Lucario has to wait a while to "activate" his... he's not the best edgeguarder at low %s, so there's nearly no way that he's ever going to kill you if he's below 60% or so.

I almost posted pictures of my Fox getting killed by Ganon's DownB at 76% after the hit, but I was too lazy... just saying, this is fairly asinine to complain about.

 

[RT]

It's more amusing to see them not able to address the ugly side of low Aura, as Croi already mentioned.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[nothing was here, dont mind me]

 

[Nysyr]

It's more amusing to see them not able to address the ugly side of low Aura.

Moreso that they usually only get the damage on Lucario due to frame and damage advantage.

He has Startup and Ending lag like heavies do, the only things that are not a heavy weight thing about him is his floatiness and his weight, lol.

Hopefully a more punishable recovery shuts people up and seperates the bad Lucarios more from the good ones.

No, because it's pretty hard to land a shinespike inn high level of play and against good players, and its one move, as opposed to Lucario where almost every move of his gets radically stronger. Fox also has to be able to follow up with his onstage shine, where he's prone to mess up and thus punished.

I'm not arguing that at low percents Lucario is good. I agree that low percent lucario is pretty bad and hard to rack up damage with, but getting that much kill power at high percents, that you can easily be in this game, is not justified. No character should have aerials and smashes that can kill you at sub 40, especially when there really is no huge risk when using them

Knee and PKT2 are not good exaples, the former being very risky because of a lot of end lag, and the latter being easily escapable for the opponent/hard to hit with (plus ness is vulnerable as he initiates pkt2). Puff Rest and Luigi Up b also fall under the a lot of risk, but high reward, if we want to use those as examples, as well. And again these are just one move that those characters have to commit to. Not to mention that they can't rely on those moves either to win.

It's called critiquing a character design; it's not crying, but merely questioning the design of said character. Sorry that some people don't blindly accept everything given to them.

I get that most characters don't have frame data yet, but have you actually bothered to look at Lucario's? Unless the patch changed something, even Ganon is faster than Lucario move wise.

Just take a look at Villager in comparison to how slow Lucario's moveset actually is overall.

 

[RT]

Oh lordy, the tired "don't blindly accept everything" argument...if you wanna complain about Aura mechanics, complain about all parts. Stop picking only the positives to argue.

If you do only address the good and not the bad, you really are just nitpicking for the sake of crying.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[what even is smash, really]

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[cringing at my comments rn]

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[ZSS is bae and only good character in smash 4[

 

[Space thing]

@ ThegreatVaporeon1

His smahses all have like 15 frame+ start up time and 30+ frames of ending lag with mediocre range. That has no risk? Also, nothing kills under 40 outside of some of the most absurd circumstances. His aerials aren't as strong as you suggest and FP has huge ending lag if the grab misses (and he has to get right up in someone's face to grab with it without the benefit of a dash grab). Seems like he needs to commit a lot to me.

 

[Croi]

I'm not arguing that at low percents Lucario is good. I agree that low percent lucario is pretty bad and hard to rack up damage with, but getting that much kill power at high percents, that you can easily be in this game, is not justified. No character should have aerials and smashes that can kill you at sub 40, especially when there really is no huge risk when using them

I'm reading this as "Lucario sucks at low Aura but he shouldn't be good at high Aura. Lucario should just suck no matter what."

 

[RT]

Did you purposely skip Croi's post?

In the second match of this video I hit Ganondorf sixteen times and he didn't even break 100%.

Please..PLEASE try to rationalize that. I dare you.

Aura...goes..both...ways. You still refuse to acknowledge the weakness of it. STOP WHINING

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[i love zero suit samus]

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[make the cringe stop..please!]

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[wow, i said some dumb things lmao]

 

[Nysyr]

I used to have a replay before the 1.04 update where a lucario's bair killed me at 34% with vectoring when he was at 130-ish.

If a bair killed you from that range you were either jigglypuff and should be ashamed of ever being hit by bair, or were off the stage so far that any decent bair like Falco or Ganon would have killed you anyways.

Would you be salty if you got spiked by mario fair in the same situation, which has the same or less startup lag?

Also you probably copied ZeRo's tweet and are lieing rofl.

FP does have end lag, i agree but the reward for getting it outways the risk hugely in this case because 1) the rest of the attack has a ton of range at high percents, which allows lucario to keep his opponent away and 2) the end lag isn't all that much to warrant the power of the move.
I'm not saying he doesn't have weaknesses. He does; but his strengths outweigh them.

Force Palm FlameThe projectile portion of the move, launched if the grab isn't landed
Hits on Frame29
Shield on Frame65

Like seriously have you even read the thread?

 

[Croi]

I know it goes both ways. I understand that at low percents its bad, but the strenghts of aura greatly outway the weaknesses here. That's what I'm trying to get at.

I know you haven't even tried Lucario because if you knew how frustrating he was at low percents, you wouldn't think this. He is so unbelievably stunted at low percents. He has no strengths. He is not a character. Rather than question "why can he only kill when he himself is in danger of dying," you should question "why is he not a character until he himself is halfway to death?" Rather than assume that his high power at high percent is his only flaw, you should note that his no power at no percent is equally as devastating.

So no one is allowed to question a character's moveset and design? We should all just accept a character despite flaws?

Yes. Unlike what you seem to think, Lucario is balanced in his own, extreme way. And I bet that if you were to quote this post, that last statement will be all you focus on.

Define to me a way to balance a character that "has good neutral game, comprised of good aerials, smashes, mobility, etc." WITHOUT making comparisons to other characters ("he should have quick jabs like Mario," "his recovery should be as bad as Ganondorf's."). You want to make a totally original character that has his own strengths and weaknesses without resorting to making a character that already exists. If you can't, then you don't even know what you want.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[I seriously thought lucario was broken lmao]

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[dumb dumb is me]

 

[RT]

Let's go a different way then.

Why does Lucario have a different moveset compared to Brawl? Maybe they looked at his design and since they planned him to have stronger Aura, they thought he needed a different moveset and properties because of this. They took away a majority of what made him good in Brawl, mostly lingering hitboxes, which took away most of his original options, thus changing how he plays. Hell, many Lucario mains hate the changes they gave him. But in the designers' minds, this is how they balanced him. They gave him a so-so moveset that doesn't do much until he gets Aura, then he becomes a huge threat. His moveset was redesigned with the Aura mechanic in mind this time around.

Is it a good design? Who knows. I'm not the design police. You're not either. It's not our game or place to decide. But it is how it is, and people need to to deal with it. You can question and critique it, but it won't change anything because it's not our decision. And if you keep going after acknowledging this, then what are you hoping to accomplish except looking like you are whining/complaining? And given how they only nerfed UpB's landing recovery, it looks like the creators are currently happy with how he is playing since it meets THEIR design.

tl;dr: Lucario is exactly they way the creators wanted him. Complaining/critiquing/whining/whatever won't change it no matter what you think in your mind. Just learn to live with how it is and move on.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[welp, smash 5 will be fun]

 

[Space thing]

I used to have a replay before the 1.04 update where a lucario's bair killed me at 34% with vectoring when he was at 130-ish. He is able to kill at sub 40. And you're also forgetting that his smashes have range to them. FP does have end lag, i agree but the reward for getting it outways the risk hugely in this case because 1) the rest of the attack has a ton of range at high percents, which allows lucario to keep his opponent away and 2) the end lag isn't all that much to warrant the power of the move.
I'm not saying he doesn't have weaknesses. He does; but his strengths outweigh them.

I just went into a game on FD, with a lucario handicapped to 150% and a level 1 AI Jigglypuff at 30%. I Bair'd the AI by the ledge twice, killing myself in between Bairs. Bair barely killed the Jigglypuff first time, and didn't the other time. Now that isn't to say that Lucario can't kill super, but still.

His smahses do not have much range. His Fsmash is notably shorter than Mario's. And that's Lucario's normal with the greatest range!

And if you miss a FPG at high percents, there's a good chance you're going to die. The flame also is not safe on block against most characters at like any range. Still a great move though.

And Every top tier is going to have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses. Lucario does it in a unique way. What's wrong with that?

 

[Steam]

It's not 192..it's around 110-120 where his moves can kill the opponents at laughably low percents, 125-130 where it really gets stupid. I had a lucario kill me with bair when he was at 120 and when I was at 40%. It's a huge design flaw in the character and I don't understand why none of these patches fix it. I would rather give lucario an actual neutral game rather than him being a ridiculous powerhouse.

Understand that if lucario's damage was balanced out so he's mid tierish, and there was no aura scaling, you would have been at ~60%+ and due to rage (which every character has) you probably would have died anyways. A balanced lucario with no aura in this game would still hit rather hard, as power is all he has going for him in this game.

 

[chaos_Leader]

"all of the above"

As someone who very regularly plays Smash4 Lucario in high-level play (my roommate is also my eternal smash rival), I will attest to the monumental difficulty a Lucario player will have vs. excellent players.

Since its the low% KO that's gets the most flack, let me explain in-depth what pretty much any given Lucario player has to go through in order for infamous absurdly low% KO to occur. Lets present the hypothetical combatants: Lucario at roughly 120%-140%, and the opponent at roughly 40%-50%. In getting to this position, the opponent would have had a few successful attack strings, some good reads and well played decisions vs. the Lucario player, since they've taken significantly less damage than they've given. In the opponent's mind, they're probably feeling in a pretty good spot: they've got a significant % lead, they can start winding up for the KO, and perhaps in the heat of the match, they're thinking maybe they can take a few risks...

Many players, when faced with being so far behind in the % this way, understandably may start to panic. They may start taking risks of their own, and leave themselves wide open for punishment; I know I have on more than one occasion, and cost me some matches in doing so.

However, because Lucario's own punishing/intercepting options are so risky themselves, good Lucario players tend to have the patience of a freaking saint to wait and wait and wait for that one good opening they need to catch their opponent off-guard, and turn the stock around. This simple fact tends to lead to an absurdly conservative and defense-oriented playstyle and player mentality when using Lucario.

In my experience, these kind of Smash4 Lucario players, who are well accustomed to the Aura mechanics, typically don't panic at all in scenarios where they are significantly further behind. These players know their opponent is likely to stick their neck out a little if they have a large % lead, and thus serve them punish opportunities on a silver platter if they wait or carefully bait.

Most of the time, the kinds of openings Lucario players get in these situations are smaller ones: ones that we can punish with a regular grab, jab combo (risky), a tilt or dash attack, or one of the quicker aerials. Landing something with a little more raw firepower from Lucario's arsenal is a bit more complicated, typically requiring the player to predict the opponent's next few decisions, place Lucario in the appropriate striking position (IE: where we can hit where we believe the opponent will likely be), and execute the move with perfect timing and precision.

This is because all of Lucario's high-powered KO moves (the Smash attacks, and the infamous Bair) have huge windup, huge cooldown, hitboxes that last all of a few frames, limited range, and Lucario's poor mobility on top of it all. Literally the only saving grace of these particular moves is the fact that when aura is built up (IE: when at high-risk) Lucario can potentially KO the target at those absurdly low percentages.

FP grab is a more reliable KO option, but again, it necessitates Lucario being nose-to-nose with his target, and just about every character has a means to intercept being in the grab-zone. It also doesn't KO at the absurdly low% either.

I personally have had much more consistent results using Aura Sphere as a KO move. But bear in mind, AS is a move that must be fully/near fully charged for optimum effect (which can take some time to set up), and it will more than likely have gone stale if the player has been using it for zoning purposes (like I typically do). My KOs from AS come largely from punting the target off-stage and sniping them from afar, which reeeeeally isn't easy, requiring similar predictive prowess and positioning as landing a Bair, if not more.

With all of these KO options that Lucario has, with the risks the player must make when committing to one of these moves, actually scoring that absurdly low% killing blow (or even a killing blow at reasonable %s for that matter) requires either pinpoint accurate reads/predictions, an inattentive opponent that let their guard down or didn't think to block/evade the blow, or extremely circumstantial setups.

I've already posted somewhere the secret to beating Lucario. It basically boils down to pressure, not aggression, but pressure. Because so much of Lucario's moveset is so risky, punishing a well-covered high-mobility approach (or even forcing Lucario to approach himself) is really really nerve-wracking for those of us who use him. You simply don't let Lucario play his patient game: stay in his face, stay on top of him, force him to make those punishable mistakes that are so easy for us to make. But above all: don't let your guard down, don't leave yourself open in such a way that Lucario can punish in return, because if Lucario gets to successfully punish, it will hurt, a lot.

 

[XeroForeverxf]

I understand his gimmick, I think everyone understands his gimmick. I'm saying that a character should not be rewarded that much for taking damage. It IS a design flaw when a character can kill you at under 50 for being only at around 115+%; no character should be able to kill that early, especially when kill moves in this game are for the most part are toned down. Fsmash can kill under 100%, it's obviously not as strong as high percents (where it can kill opponents who are at 40%), but it can do the job.

Again, I would rather him have an actual netural game rather than just "lol hit me as much you want so I can kill you." He rewards bad plays, and nothing more.

Sure I can counterpick a character; that doesn't take away the fact that his design is flawed.

Look man, if you got hit by bair, like at ****ing all, you deserved to be ****ing killed.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[shut up vaporeon]

 

[sparkaura]

stuff.

This is pretty much Lucairo in a nutshell. You trade getting smacked around, bullied, etc all the time at early % to wreck at the end. My roommate mains Shiek, and Early %'s im getting juggled and cant do squat. Sometimes he gets an early kill with some good reads but most of the time I wait it out and play patiently till he makes a mistake. Thats when I shift the momentum and kill. Basically, dont lose your momentum, be patient, and abuse Lucario's bad neutral and you'll do fine against him.

Also, B-air is pretty hard to land, its slow and easily avoidable. Its not as easy as you are making it seem . Try playing around with lucario and see if you can find a reliable way to b-air. If you do let me know lol

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[wow i was an idiot lol]

 

[Steam]

I do play him from time to time; landing a bair isn't easy, but it's not as difficult as you make it out to be. Just need to be able time it correctly and be a little precise with it, not to mention how rewarding that move is if you get a kill at high percents.

it's easily avoidable by almost any opponent. In tourney my opponents regularly live to 200%+ despite aura because it's easy to just opt out of his kill moves.