Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[osby]

As a side note, Ryu Hayabusa would absolutely get flack for being the final character.

He's "too safe/boring/predictable" thanks to various factors including rumors, he's a "generic ninja" who'd no doubt would be accused of being a Greninja/Sheik clone, he's not as big as the other guest fighters in this pass and you know more than a few people would call him a promo pick because of the Ninja Gaiden collection.

 

[Knight Dude]

As a side note, Ryu Hayabusa would absolutely get flack for being the final character.

He's "too safe/boring/predictable" thanks to various factors including rumors, he's a "generic ninja" who'd no doubt would be accused of being a Greninja/Sheik clone, he's not as big as the other guest fighters in this pass and you know more than a few people would call him a promo pick because of the Ninja Gaiden collection.

Literally any character, no matter how good or bad each of us think they are would be considered a waste of time to some other people. Nothing to avoid that. But it is what it is.

Personally, I think Hayabusa's Legacy between his NES and Modern games is enough, and he even has an arcade game, a GB game that has ties to another ninja game, and a DS game to boot. And that's not even getting to the DOA stuff he could pull into his kit or potential tracks.

Though there's other Ninja options since it seems like he isn't being added. Joe Musashi, Strider, Scorpion or Sub-Zero to name a few.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A lot of people are perfectly willing to ignore or downplay character and franchise legacy.

Even Steve had people argue Minecraft wasn't a "real game" and had no place in a "gaming hall of fame."

It's the people, not the characters. Every character in the roster has good reasons to be here if you're willing to look and accept reasoning you may not initially agree with.

 

[osby]

Literally any character, no matter how good or bad each of us think they are would be considered a waste of time to some other people. Nothing to avoid that. But it is what it is.

Personally, I think Hayabusa's Legacy between his NES and Modern games is enough, and he even has an arcade game, a GB game that has ties to another ninja game, and a DS game to boot. And that's not even getting to the DOA stuff he could pull into his kit or potential tracks.

Though there's other Ninja options since it seems like he isn't being added. Joe Musashi, Strider, Scorpion or Sub-Zero to name a few.

I think Hayabusa would be a really cool legacy pick who actually stayed relatively popular to this day. I don't really have a personal connection to him but he'd make a respectable final character for me. I'm just sure he wouldn't pass the fandom's current sky-high standards, judging by the treatment Kazuya got.

Also, it would be pretty funny if this pass was a 50/50 divide between colorful, stylized characters ( ) and dark, realistic fighters (, Hayabusa).

 

[ceterisparibus]

Does he have his merits? Yes, but there isn't really a straight tierlist of priority. Persona 5 was added before other, much older JRPGs like Monster Hunter, Tales, and Dragon Quest (Though the latter did get added later), which was the general pattern at the time. It's generally agreed that it's because Persona 5 was a recent smash hit, which made Nintendo go for it over any older series. On the flipside, Fatal Fury and it's successor, King of Fighters, isn't quite as big worldwide compared to contemporaries like Tekken (Though that also ended up added the following pass, admittedly), but it was added for it's stature in the arcade scene and it's legacy for Smash and fighters as a whole. Then there's Steve, who was added just for the sheer size of Minecraft. And then there's Min Min, Byleth, and Pyra, who were all from recent Switch releases.

In short, there isn't a "main" reason for being added. Sometimes it's recency, sometimes it's legacy, sometimes it's just sheer size. I'm not going to limit myself to thinking that if a pattern is broken, it has to be one specific character and nobody else.

...And either way, you haven't really given anything that really proves how big Bomberman is beyond your word, so it's kinda hard to judge it based on that alone

Not really going against the broader points of your argument, but i don't disagree with the points where the bigger IPs from a particular genre tends to be "prioritized" over others. It's not that much of a surprise that Nintendo would want to get the biggest stars in a genre first into their fighting game as there's a much bigger reach, and its pretty consistent with Final Fantasy getting in over DQ/persona, Street fighter over SNK and now tekken over other potential 3d fighters.
With that said using this argument to "decide" who will get in first from a company is going to result in disappointment.

 

[Theguy123]

What’s everyone’s opinion on the 40 name list leak. I see people still saying it’s real because Kazuya was considered, Rex was considered and min min was an in house decision at the last minute.

I personally don’t want it to be real. I’d be squire disappointed if the last character came from that leak because it would mean it was all leaked around jokers reveal. Do we have a solid argument to debunk it other than saying

“Kazuya was considered, Rex was considered and min min wasn’t on the list”

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What’s everyone’s opinion on the 40 name list leak. I see people still saying it’s real because Kazuya was considered, Rex was considered and min min was an in house decision at the last minute.

I personally don’t want it to be real. I’d be squire disappointed if the last character came from that leak because it would mean it was all leaked around jokers reveal. Do we have a solid argument to debunk it other than saying

“Kazuya was considered, Rex was considered and min min wasn’t on the list”

Remind me who was on the list.

That said, I think Min Min not being there is a pretty big killer anyways. Unless the list said "ARMS character" like the Gematsu leak, I think it's dead.

An ARMS character was decided on pretty early on in the development cycle.

 

[Curious Villager]

That was Cranky Kong in his younger years.

Well that and they're two separate Donkey Kongs in canon anyway.

tbf so are the two Toon Link's, who still gets replaced if Toon Link and the other two Link's (for whatever reason) are on stage too...

bscure Donkey Kong lore to flex on people
doesn't point out that Piranha Plant is a species, so it's not weird if there are multiple of them

I see how it is...


Regardless, they're both recognized as the same icon so it still counts.

Not to mention that Sakurai used the arcade DK as modern DK's retro form anyway if Duck Hunt's reveal Trailer and Pac Man's promotional artwork are anything to go by, so yeah, I doubt he cared too much about that piece of lore, or at least, he cared about it as much as he cared about the Link one...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What’s everyone’s opinion on the 40 name list leak. I see people still saying it’s real because Kazuya was considered, Rex was considered and min min was an in house decision at the last minute.

I personally don’t want it to be real. I’d be squire disappointed if the last character came from that leak because it would mean it was all leaked around jokers reveal. Do we have a solid argument to debunk it other than saying

“Kazuya was considered, Rex was considered and min min wasn’t on the list”

It's as legit as a certain someone who bragged that he predicted Corrin and Bayonetta. The larger the net, the liklier you'll get something right even if the other 30+ are wrong

 

[Dinoman96]

Simians on keyboards

 

[Evil Trapezium]

What’s everyone’s opinion on the 40 name list leak. I see people still saying it’s real because Kazuya was considered, Rex was considered and min min was an in house decision at the last minute.

I personally don’t want it to be real. I’d be squire disappointed if the last character came from that leak because it would mean it was all leaked around jokers reveal. Do we have a solid argument to debunk it other than saying

“Kazuya was considered, Rex was considered and min min wasn’t on the list”

You're referring to this 4 chan list? https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/464169792/

Looking at this objectively, lets see what the list has similar to the Fighter passes.

(Fighters)

• Luminary
• Banjo & Kazooie
• Terry Bogard
• Byleth
• Steve
• Sephiroth

(Mii Costumes)

• Arthur
• Erdrick
• Heihachi
• Lloyd
• Monster Hunter
• Shantae
• Yu Narukami

So from this we can see that 13 characters have become true in some form over the course of both fighter passes. It has been very consistent during pass 1, however it's not as reliable for Pass 2 as it misses out on characters like Min Min, Pyra/Mythra and Kazuya Mishima. While the latter two characters are related to some characters on the list such as Rex and Heihachi respectively, Min Min is the sole outlier.

However one thing to note is that Sakurai has said that he considered both Rex and Heihachi in both Pyra/Mythra and Kazuya's presentations, but then again he's also considered Ninjara which is not mentioned in the list. Hypothetically if this list was true then Fighter Pass 2 will most likely end with someone related to a character on this list so don't be too surprised when you see Globox stealing Rayman's letter. Otherwise, 13/40 characters is not reliable.

 

[Phoenixio]

Plus, aren't most leaks nowadays leaked minutes before the direct? That doesn't really count as leaks if you ask me...

 

[Peripuff]

The leak acts on the premise that Nintendo gave Sakurai a list. This information on its own is questionable considering the process that has been informed to us for character selection in the Sakurai presents doesn’t seem to involve a list. There’s also the whole thing that Nintendo seems to ask for characters from particular games or series rather than specific characters, so I’m not sure if we can really trust that this leak is true based on what we know. That being said, even if it were real, the fact that they just added an ARMS character indicates that it doesn’t really matter, CP11 could be another newly decided one anyway. In my opinion, I’m willing to bet that this leak was just a series of lucky guesses.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Sora fans: Sora doesn't count! He's 100% Disney!

That's only partially true. Sora won't get in partially because of Disney, and he also won't get in partially because of a Square Enix character being hard as f**k to get in Smash anyways.

 

[StrawHatX]

shadow zero waluigi are all very cool but that is objectively false

Yeah…………..no.
Maybe in like 2001, but nowadays Waluigi, Shadow, and possibly Zero are way more recognizable than Bomberman.

I’d be willing to bet if you show some 10 year old kid a picture of Waluigi, Shadow, and Bomberman they’d be able to tell you who the first two are and would have no clue who the other was. It helps when you’re a character that’s part of the Mario and Sonic series.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

As a side note, Ryu Hayabusa would absolutely get flack for being the final character.

He's "too safe/boring/predictable" thanks to various factors including rumors, he's a "generic ninja" who'd no doubt would be accused of being a Greninja/Sheik clone, he's not as big as the other guest fighters in this pass and you know more than a few people would call him a promo pick because of the Ninja Gaiden collection.

I wont lie, to constant rumors that happend for him at every turn kinda made me get sick of seeing his name

 

[3BitSaurus]

I don't think I'll ever get the logic behind "an AT promotion would get huge backlash because it's nothing new".

Min Min got some backlash post release, but that's only because of the way she plays which makes her annoying to fight against.

Pyra and Mythra didn't get a lot of it outside the "anime swordsman" crowd.

Sephiroth didn't get any significant backlash at all.

Byleth is really the only exception, but it definitely wasn't simply because Fire Emblem already had some content in the game, I'll tell you that. These were all franchises that already had representation in Ultimate, but still got characters as DLC.

Sure, it's the last character, so some people will be salty anyway, but hell, regardless of who it is, we're already going to miss out on so many games that have little or no content at all in Ultimate. An AT promotion won't change that in the slightest.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't think I'll ever get the logic behind "an AT promotion would get huge backlash because it's nothing new".

Min Min got some backlash post release, but that's only because of the way she plays which makes her annoying to fight against.

Pyra and Mythra didn't get a lot of it outside the "anime swordsman" crowd.

Sephiroth didn't get any significant backlash at all.

Byleth is really the only exception, but it definitely wasn't simply because Fire Emblem already had some content in the game, I'll tell you that. These were all franchises that already had representation in Ultimate, but still got characters as DLC.

Sure, it's the last character, so some people will be salty anyway, but hell, regardless of who it is, we're already going to miss out on so many games that have little or no content at all in Ultimate. An AT promotion won't change that in the slightest.

That's because it doesn't exist, the only pushback would be from people going "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MY FAVOURITE THIS SUCKS"

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I don't think I'll ever get the logic behind "an AT promotion would get huge backlash because it's nothing new".

Min Min got some backlash post release, but that's only because of the way she plays which makes her annoying to fight against.

Pyra and Mythra didn't get a lot of it outside the "anime swordsman" crowd.

Sephiroth didn't get any significant backlash at all.

Byleth is really the only exception, but it definitely wasn't simply because Fire Emblem already had some content in the game, I'll tell you that. These were all franchises that already had representation in Ultimate, but still got characters as DLC.

Sure, it's the last character, so some people will be salty anyway, but hell, regardless of who it is, we're already going to miss out on so many games that have little or no content at all in Ultimate. An AT promotion won't change that in the slightest.

As I've always mentioned with Byleth before, it was basically the perfect storm to maximize antipathy. A mystery reveal (with no other announcements to mitigate it) from a first party franchise that was already criticized for having too many reps as the last character in a fighter's pass that had been all third parties, in a trailer that wasn't all that well paced in terms of announcing them. Honestly I think Byleth was such a hard surprise for so many that a lot people became a bit more reserved in regards to their anticipation about fighters, because once a selection like that was on the table, a lot fans did not want to be struck dumb or be hit by that much disappointment again.

And I think that phenomenon has occurred on top of overall investment in Smash gradually dying down over the past year so there's less overall emotional reaction in general to reveals, good or bad. There will be an uptick for Fighter 11 by virtue of being the last, but I don't believe it will quite be the same as that first 14 or so months after Ultimate's release. I think even solid, but unspectacular choices like a Gen 8 Pokémon or Octoling will get equivalent reactions closer to cynical sighs and disappointed shrugs than outright angry hostility because there's just not the same level of hype as there once was.

 

[Gengar84]

I like Ryu Hyabusa and I'd be happy with his inclusion but he isn't my most wanted Koei-Tecmo rep. I haven't really played any Ninja Gaiden games so I don't have any real connection to him other than thinking he's a cool looking ninja. Personally, I would go with Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors. I've been a huge fan of Dynasty Warriors and other Warriors games since Dynasty Warriors 2 on the PS2. Lu Bu would also be a very unique fighter and the only character with a dedicated polearm moveset.

 

[Momotsuki]

I think there's a lot of blind pessimism regarding the final challenger pack. I wouldn't expect anything huge but I think it'll be something interesting.

 

[DanganZilla5]

In terms of Koei Tecmo I would be happy with either Hayabusa or Dynasty Warriors. I would prefer Hayabusa since I have more of a connection with his games and Unbreakable Determination is one of my top favorite songs, period. But Dynasty Warriors would also be sick. I would be fine with any of the major characters making it in but I think Lu Bu would be a great choice as I dig his ruthless attitude and I think he would just be all-around a badass.

 

[Bobthealligator]

You're referring to this 4 chan list? https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/464169792/

Looking at this objectively, lets see what the list has similar to the Fighter passes.

(Fighters)

• Luminary
• Banjo & Kazooie
• Terry Bogard
• Byleth
• Steve
• Sephiroth

(Mii Costumes)

• Arthur
• Erdrick
• Heihachi
• Lloyd
• Monster Hunter
• Shantae
• Yu Narukami

So from this we can see that 13 characters have become true in some form over the course of both fighter passes. It has been very consistent during pass 1, however it's not as reliable for Pass 2 as it misses out on characters like Min Min, Pyra/Mythra and Kazuya Mishima. While the latter two characters are related to some characters on the list such as Rex and Heihachi respectively, Min Min is the sole outlier.

However one thing to note is that Sakurai has said that he considered both Rex and Heihachi in both Pyra/Mythra and Kazuya's presentations, but then again he's also considered Ninjara which is not mentioned in the list. Hypothetically if this list was true then Fighter Pass 2 will most likely end with someone related to a character on this list so don't be too surprised when you see Globox stealing Rayman's letter. Otherwise, 13/40 characters is not reliable.

It's quite easy to get it right when you're "predicting" that the characters came from a list of 40. Honestly it's pretty funny that they got as many wrong as they did.
Also forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't the "Nintendo gave Sakurai a list to pick from" debunked? I remember him saying that he had a veto if he thought a character would be too difficult but otherwise Nintendo had picked every character (And that he hadn't used said veto), though it does seem that they didn't care which Tekken, Arms or Xenoblade 2 character he ultimately went with..

 

[Evil Trapezium]

It's quite easy to get it right when you're "predicting" that the characters came from a list of 40. Honestly it's pretty funny that they got as many wrong as they did.
Also forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't the "Nintendo gave Sakurai a list to pick from" debunked? I remember him saying that he had a veto if he thought a character would be too difficult but otherwise Nintendo had picked every character (And that he hadn't used said veto), though it does seem that they didn't care which Tekken, Arms or Xenoblade 2 character he ultimately went with..

Regardless if this list is true or not, I do find it a little impressive they put down Sephiroth and Terry as characters on the list since they are rarely discussed anywhere in the Smash fandom. Sure you can list down fourty characters and eventually get some of them right but are there that many lists that even discussed the possibility of an SNK character being considered?

 

[SNEKeater]

The last character is going to be interesting, that's for sure. And not because it's going to be the last one but because I have total faith in Sakurai and his team. The character itself might be not a big deal for me personally, but I'm sure the fighter will be fun to play as all of the other new additions and will bring some cool content.

Like, I barely play with Steve since his release because his playstyle isn't for me but I can totally appreciate what they did with him moveset-wise.

If CP11 is a big name or not will only matter for a few weeks. If it's a big character we'll have people saying how great Ultimate is and things like that, if it's a character that doesn't meet with the "standards" of the community then people will be negative for a while. After that, people won't care anymore. Some will stick to play Ultimate and others might move on from the game completely, so I personally kinda don't care if we get a popular character or not for CP11.

I mean, getting someone like Chief, Sora or Crash would be dope and I can see the appeal in ending Ultimate with a big name, I totally do. But if we end getting a "low profile" character... I won't be mad at all. It might excite me more than Chief or Sora depending in who is.

I just want something cool. And when I say that, I mean it in terms of content of the challenger pack, moveset, and so on. Not necessarily the fighter's identity.

lol bro if any AT is getting promoted it’s bomberman first, he literally does have priority due to his status

I really thinkyou’re underestimating how well known he is, especially in japan

You say that but people also assumed that if we got a spirit promotion it would be someone like Geno, Rayman or Shantae. Not Min Min.

Not to say, I personally don't see how Bomberman is that of a lock for being our first AT promotion. At cost of being proven wrong if we actually get a promotion with CP11, I think Waluigi or Isaac are far more likely than Bomberman for CP11. For next Smash game, I could see Bomberman getting in, but I'd still feel he's less likely to make it in comparison to not only Waluigi and Isaac, but also Shadow or Zero.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

What's this list again? Anyone mind giving a link.

 

[Theguy123]

What's this list again? Anyone mind giving a link.

/v/ - Video Games » Thread #464169792

arch.b4k.co

 

[Paraster]

I actually decided to rank all the not-deconfirmed characters on that list leak based on how much I'd like them (note that this isn't necessarily exact, particularly for the ones I'm less familiar with).

1. Quote
2. Bandana Waddle Dee
3. Porky
4. Spyro
5. Sora
6. Linkle
7. Amaterasu
8. Phoenix Wright
9. Doom Slayer
10. Rayman
11. Crash
12. Captain Toad
13. Crono
14. Ezio
15. Ryu Hayabusa
16. Chun-Li
17. Yuri
18. Lara Croft
19. Jibanyan
20. Professor Layton
21. Lana
22. Bill Rizer

 

[Guynamednelson]

Regardless if this list is true or not, I do find it a little impressive they put down Sephiroth and Terry as characters on the list since they are rarely discussed anywhere in the Smash fandom. Sure you can list down fourty characters and eventually get some of them right but are there that many lists that even discussed the possibility of an SNK character being considered?

But just because we didn't think that much about Smash riding the SNK guest fighter train, or Sephiroth being a way to turn FFVII's nothing into something, doesn't make it really shocking that a long list of video game characters includes them.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

List can be ruled out because Kazuya ain't on there.

 

[Momotsuki]

I can't shake the idea that this "list" is a bit of a hodgepodge of bogus nonsense and actual info. Even taking so many shots, that's a lot of hits considering the sheer number of characters that would make plausible additions. I don't think it's useful to us considering - as said above - not every eventual DLC fighter is on the list - but I also have a gut feeling it wasn't pure guesswork, either. I dunno.

 

[Inferno7]

As a side note, Ryu Hayabusa would absolutely get flack for being the final character.

He's "too safe/boring/predictable" thanks to various factors including rumors, he's a "generic ninja" who'd no doubt would be accused of being a Greninja/Sheik clone, he's not as big as the other guest fighters in this pass and you know more than a few people would call him a promo pick because of the Ninja Gaiden collection.

I'd personally like Hayabusa, his design is cool even if I'm not familiar with his games. I also don't see the similarities between him and Sheik/Greninja (both of whom are wannabe ninjas), but this is the Smash fanbase we are talking about, the one that unironically called Kazuya "Electric Ryu".

The only "bad" thing about him is pretty much what you said, the fact he's been brought up ad nauseam as this sort of lock, but now that things have calmed I don't really care.

 

[Momotsuki]

I'm only familiar with Ninja Gaiden on a surface level, but seeing Ryu Hayabusa in Smash, my reaction would essentially boil down to "yeah, he deserves it." It's a similar case to Pyra/Mythra, another character I didn't particularly want but felt should be in the roster nonetheless.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Ok I'm not saying I believe the list is real..
But just saying..
Ezio is on it and not Altair... kinda funny especially considering we've been speculating on Ezio ever since Kazuya because there could potential similarities between the situation where we got a Heihachi Mii Costume but got a playable Kazuya, and the situation in which we also got a Altair Mii Costume.

 

[Eldrake]

Despite slapping forty names on it, it still failed to get Min Min, Pyra, Mythra and Kazuya. Why are people still giving an attention-craving typewriter monkey post the time of the day?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I thought we were discussing the list under the assumption that it guessed Kazuya. Now I’m just wondering why we’re discussing a list that came out of the gates swinging with a total lack of anything ARMS-related.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

List can be ruled out because Kazuya ain't on there.

It doesn't have Pyra/Mythra either.
It does have Heihachi and Rex though, so maybe it was outdated info like the Gematsu leak?

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

I would be psyched if the final character was Bomberman. Wouldn't mean much for Ultimate, but at least "Miis deconfirm" and "ATs deconfirm" would be dead going in to Smash 6.

For Ultimate? Or Smash 6?

Nope, then the arguments would just be “well that was a one time DLC, that’s different”. The goal posts never get taken down, they just get moved

 

[TCT~Phantom]

List can be ruled out because Kazuya ain't on there.

It should be ruled out due to ARMS. If you wanted to split hairs, you could say Heihachi and Rex count for Kazuya and Pythra. Arms is the one out of place on the list due to not being there.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

I think there's a lot of blind pessimism regarding the final challenger pack. I wouldn't expect anything huge but I think it'll be something interesting.

Being pessimistic instead of optimistic this whole pass has made me enjoy this pass a lot more than I would’ve otherwise, so I’m gonna personally continue the trend

also that list is fake as soon as they put Porky on it, like they would actually put in a Mother rep now of all times