DK vs Ness... Opinions?

[PKNintendo]

I think the matchup is pretty even. They both have a something that can be used against them.

DK has his weight, great reaching tilts, powerful smashes, spike, and giant punch which IMO kicks ***.


Ness has PK fire (especially B-sticking PK Fire) Nice aerials, defense yo-yo's, PK Thunder 2. Spike.

Things that need to be cleared up though. DK doesn't infinite Ness using his cargo. Debunked (I just tested it too)

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158858:p

So, does anyone else feel this way?

 

[Ripple]

actually, it is an infinite, the last time that chain grab list was updated was in June. go to the ness boards and look it up, it is an infinite. I've done it against simna, vicegirp, and a few others.

as far as the match up goes I think it is really easy now. I have not lost to any ness player yet, you know why??? IT"S BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID. Really, the only way they ever try killing me is with PKT 2, and I see that coming from a mile away and just shield it and grab and gets lots of damage or I just F smash because they have so much lag.

the dair is another problem but I don't worry about it too much it may kill DK at 30% but never see them use it off stage.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Pk Fire can be a ***** to get out of with Dks huge frame 0_o

 

[PKNintendo]

actually, it is an infinite, the last time that chain grab list was updated was in June. go to the ness boards and look it up, it is an infinite. I've done it against simna, vicegirp, and a few others.

as far as the match up goes I think it is really easy now. I have not lost to any ness player yet, you know why??? IT"S BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID. Really, the only way they ever try killing me is with PKT 2, and I see that coming from a mile away and just shield it and grab and gets lots of damage or I just F smash because they have so much lag.

the dair is another problem but I don't worry about it too much it may kill DK at 30% but never see them use it off stage.

It was re updated. Ness cannot be infinited by DK. Sure, an inexperienced player (to the cargo hold of course) may be infinited, but with proper DI, DK cannot reach him again. Of course, I've tested it with multiple people. Why don't you test it out again?

PS: But if it is true.

 

[Tujex]

actually, it is an infinite, the last time that chain grab list was updated was in June. go to the ness boards and look it up, it is an infinite. I've done it against simna, vicegirp, and a few others.

as far as the match up goes I think it is really easy now. I have not lost to any ness player yet, you know why??? IT"S BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID. Really, the only way they ever try killing me is with PKT 2, and I see that coming from a mile away and just shield it and grab and gets lots of damage or I just F smash because they have so much lag.

the dair is another problem but I don't worry about it too much it may kill DK at 30% but never see them use it off stage.

I'll have to let you play my friend then. His Ness is the only one who can give my DK any problems.

 

[PKNintendo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167365&highlight=DK

Phew. Found proof.

Originally Posted by Masky View Post
Ulevo, did you test Lucas's CG on Ness? I don't see it listed on your "DOES NOT WORK" list. Ness can not DI out of it, but you were able to dodge the followup grab somehow?

Also, were you able to dodge DK's followup running grab? If not, it is still an infinite.

I tested Nessbounder's list with DI too. I had already narrowed it down to Marth, Charizard, Squirtle, DK, and Lucas in Nessbounder's thread (read my post: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?...5&postcount=42 ).

EDIT: And lol, I love the fact that the only people trying to minimize the impact of this besides Ness and Lucas mains are Falco and Ice Climber mains (don't have a problem with that though)
I did test Lucas's CG on Ness, and you can spotdodge out of it, it just requires precise timing or mashing down while holding R or L. I'll throw up Lucas in the "does not work" section, I kinda forgot.

Also, something important to note. DK, along with anyone that needs to run for a re-grab against these two, will not successfully re-grab them. It takes too much time for DK to run and grab them, and by that time, they've spot dodges or hit you with Standard A. It might work against a wall, but I'm sure there are a lot of things that work against a wall. (I'm looking at you Dedede)

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

lol ripple you take the wrong things too seriously

everything that happens in online matches is a joke

oh and by the way....Ness has the absolute HUGEST disadvantage in 1v1 online matches....beating ANY ness online is about as noteworthy as ...well its not noteworthy at all

 

[PKNintendo]

Simna ibn Sind!

How do you pronounce your name?

I say, Sima in before sind. (weird)

Again, I believe Ness is a 50-50 DK.

 

[Big O]

I am pretty sure the cargo release is an infinite on Ness and Lucas because if DK turns around after initiating the cargo throw they (and any character) cannot DI far enough away to force DK to run. Basically if DK turns around after starting the cargo throw, they will always be released within grab range (and Dsmash range too). DK just has to react quickly enough to the DI and it becomes infinite if you cannot mash fast enough to escape before DK turns around. DIing so that you are inside DK might help them psyche out DK though.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

You can break the cargo and fall out too far away for DK to just grab you even if he does turn, but he can still dash grab at you and trade his grab with whatever attacks u do in the short time....but his grab still hits


i believe there is a way out of it tho

 

[Fatmanonice]

lol ripple you take the wrong things too seriously

everything that happens in online matches is a joke

oh and by the way....Ness has the absolute HUGEST disadvantage in 1v1 online matches....beating ANY ness online is about as noteworthy as ...well its not noteworthy at all

Your online experience =/= Everyone else's. Not every match suffers from completely monstrous lag. This is one of the things that I prefer in Allisbrawl over this place: you're not considered a skill-less "scrub" (as I often hear poetically said here) if you win online tournaments or even just like to play online. It strikes me as beyond comical that a site that constantly preaches "no johns"does almost nothing but when it comes to the subject of online play. "If the match hadn't have been online, I would have kicked the crap out of you" sounds an awful lot like "I would have won if you hadn't have used Metaknight" to me.

The timing is different therefore it's basically another playing field and, with everything else, you learn to adjust to the 1/5 of a second lag on a good connection. Yes Virginia, it is possible for Ness to recover, the Ice Climbers to chain grab, and Snake to Mortar Slide online. Can't beat your friend's King Dedede? Tweak your playstyle a little bit and adjust. Can't win online? Do the same thing. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Really, I don't care if you don't like Brawl's online but it really irks me when someone talks about online as if it's nothing but ******* trying to spell words with cherrios or that the lag is so impossibly bad with everyone that you actually have to draw your characters on the TV screen in order to make them fight.

I would go to tournaments if St. Louis bothered to have any so the only way I can get competition is through online. Please, allow me at this moment to not only aplogise for the city that I live in but to also say I'm sorry for not being willing to drive all the way to Kansas City or Chicago in order to play a couple of matches and go back home. Yes, pardon me, pardon me...

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

fatman....playing online is like playing tennis on a court that is constantly changing from grass to clay to cement to oatmeal unpredictably and each player's side of the field is not always the same as their opponent's

even with the very BEST connections between wiis that are two FEET apart there is a lag BUILT IN to the game's online play as a safety net

What does this mean for Ness? It means his recovery which requires INSANE PRECISION is boiled down to BASIC RECOVERY which means he gets destroyed off the stage always(and that's if there is just the built in delay....with more lag he cant even do that).

Oh and did i mention upB is Ness' PRIMARY ATTACK MOVE? Generally Ness can use upB from long/mid/short distances in such a way that he is for the most part not vulnerable while using it. Online he lacks the control over it to protect himself while using it and is pretty much vulnerable everywhere.


You can't simply tweak your playstyle for online. Not only is the lag with each opponent different, but the lag between matches of the SAME opponent are different and often every FIVE SECONDS of a single match has its own unique amount of ping/packetloss in addition to the lag the game has built in for wifi matches.

Wifi play is definitely a GAME and can be FUN, but it being competitive is a joke.


oh and while we're here let's talk about the "honor system" needed for online tournaments...a person could flat out LIE about the results of a match and there is nothing anyone could do. The way around this is to have a third party/spectator player in the match as well as the two competing players....but even after the spectator SDs the game still has to send/receive packets to/from that player's wii which makes the lag that much more intense

like i said before online play can be a FUN thing to do....it even might test some type of skill, but its not anything near the same skill tested by offline play....and it is not any kind of skill that can be measured

 

[PKNintendo]

You can break the cargo and fall out too far away for DK to just grab you even if he does turn, but he can still dash grab at you and trade his grab with whatever attacks u do in the short time....but his grab still hits


i believe there is a way out of it tho

You can spot dodge the running grab. Attacking is slower than spot dodging.
I retested this, and I still couldn't get the CG down, EVEN WHEN I turned around.

 

[Big O]

You can break the cargo and fall out too far away for DK to just grab you even if he does turn, but he can still dash grab at you and trade his grab with whatever attacks u do in the short time....but his grab still hits


i believe there is a way out of it tho

I am not so sure you are doing it right. If DK faces the opposite direction that he grabs them from during the cargo carry, with DI they can only go barely in front of DK, a little behind DK, or somewhere in between (or within DK but they will be pushed out of him). All of the places they can DI to are within grab range or turn around grab range (no need to run or even walk). When DK faces the opposite direction he grabs them from their DI becomes much more limited and most characters are too big to even DI in front of him (Ness and Lucas are small enough though) and are forced a set distance behind DK. Although they will break out behind DK when he turns around without DI, DIing behind DK will not change the distance they break away from him. Maybe they slid far enough behind you because the momentum of you walking made DK slide to far away? If you just stand still and turn around they should not be able to go very far behind DK. Can you explain how you tested this because I am getting different results.

 

[PKNintendo]

Actually, to escape DK's regrab, you must DI backwards when he turns around, so you end up behind him.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

u u can escape the grab outside of DK's range forcing him to run-grab

i tested it in matches with cbk

 

[The Director]

Ness can give DK a run for his money, but DK will always have the killing power.

This Ness gives me a run for my money:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9_QPoAg7eM

 

[Blacksharkey]

Ppl with ness just only do attacks like pk fire so you can't get close that's what i hate about ness and lucas
but dk will kick *** if he comes close ...

 

[PKPower]

Ppl with ness just only do attacks like pk fire so you can't get close that's what i hate about ness and lucas
but dk will kick *** if he comes close ...

Yep. That is all us Ness/Lucas users EVER do. This man deserves a medal.

Edit: Mis spell >.>

 

[Crystanium]

Simna ibn Sind!

How do you pronounce your name?

I say, Sima in before sind. (weird)

Again, I believe Ness is a 50-50 DK.

It's pronounced "e bin." It's Arabic for "son of," kind of like the Hebrew variant, "ben."

On a relevant note, it looks like you took my advice, PKNintendo.

Ness hasn't been a problem for my Donkey Kong.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Yep. That is all us Ness/Lucas users EVER do. This man deserves a metal.

a "medal"? lolcano.

close game goes to dk... the hard part is getting it close. Doesn't ness' arial beat every arial except bair though?

 

[PKPower]

a "medal"? lolcano.

close game goes to dk... the hard part is getting it close. Doesn't ness' arial beat every arial except bair though?

The matchup does seem pretty even to me. Both DK and Ness have great range to their attacks, they both have great killing power. But DK's is better.

Just don't let Ness get a Fthrow -> Dair gimp off, because you will die if you aren't quick enough with the meteor cancel, even at 0%. Ness's spike is the second most powerful in the entire game keep in mind, it kills at 1% more then Ganondorf's. Just so you guys know what you are dealing with.

 

[i1337]

close game goes to dk... the hard part is getting it close. Doesn't ness' arial beat every arial except bair though?

o_O took the words right out of my keyboard.

 

[BurtonEarny]

o_O took the words right out of my keyboard.

pk mindreading! On a side note, I really wish d.k. would be lower on the tier list...

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

im pretty sure ness' dair spikes more than dorf's


also on the one hand DK has a mad grab game against ness

on the other hand DK gets ***** by pk fire and pretty much cant do anything about pk thunder when he is in the air

 

[Ripple]

im pretty sure ness' dair spikes more than dorf's


also on the one hand DK has a mad grab game against ness

on the other hand DK gets ***** by pk fire and pretty much cant do anything about pk thunder when he is in the air

DK just needs to attack PK thunder instead of air dodge it. I'm pretty sure a well timed dair, fair, bair will cancel it.
and with PK fire, DK can just up b out of it for some reason without getting hit by all of it

and everyone has a good grab game on ness, grab release to d smash is ****.

 

[manhunter098]

DK might have enough time to air dodge PK thunder and then cancel it depending on the direction it is coming back from, since an u-air or b-air shouldnt be too difficult to time so you can cancel it out and both of those moves have very little after lag.

 

[Tujex]

I've played my fair share of Ness' and I haven't had much of a problem. PKFire spam can be annoying, but they can become rather predictable. If you see one coming, it's fairly easy to dodge....and they're very easy to see coming because of start lag (his pull back before he shoots).

His dash attack and Fair can be a pain because of the stupid disjointed hitbox of that sparkly ball thing, and his Dair is a pain because it has hella knockback (or "down" in this case). PKThunder is also avoidable. It can be hit or dodged, and leaves Ness wide open afterward...Not to mention (since his doesn't go through people like Lucas') his recovery is easily gimped.

But yeah...nothing in his match that a good DK player can't handle. Someone who's never played a good Ness, or doesn't have much experience against one, can and more than likely will have problems with him....but it's nothing you can't get around.

 

[The Director]

A good Ness who can control his aerials very well is a problem for DK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3_ASyRixdI

Also Ness has an incredible back throw, even against DK.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

DK just needs to attack PK thunder instead of air dodge it. I'm pretty sure a well timed dair, fair, bair will cancel it.

that's what most ppl say....except there are other things to factor in...for instance....the part of PKThunder that you have to attack to break it(the head) makes up less than 25% of the entire pk thunder. The rest of it(the tail) you can't attack and if you come in contact with the tail its a guaranteed combo into the head.

So you can try to attack/destroy it, but its going to be HARD and at the risk of taking 1-4% extra damage....(ESPECIALLY hard to attack with any of the slower aerial: Dair/Fair)

 

[BurtonEarny]

I've played my fair share of Ness' and I haven't had much of a problem. PKFire spam can be annoying, but they can become rather predictable. If you see one coming, it's fairly easy to dodge....and they're very easy to see coming because of start lag (his pull back before he shoots).

His dash attack and Fair can be a pain because of the stupid disjointed hitbox of that sparkly ball thing, and his Dair is a pain because it has hella knockback (or "down" in this case). PKThunder is also avoidable. It can be hit or dodged, and leaves Ness wide open afterward...Not to mention (since his doesn't go through people like Lucas') his recovery is easily gimped.

But yeah...nothing in his match that a good DK player can't handle. Someone who's never played a good Ness, or doesn't have much experience against one, can and more than likely will have problems with him....but it's nothing you can't get around.

Actaully, I believe ness' arials outrpioritize MOST of dk's moves (at least fair, and I think bair). So a shorthopping ness may actaully prove to be a real problem, but I think dk's bair can beat ness' arials. So when you see a ness shorthop try to turn and bair or get off a WELL timed uptilt, but I think if ness is in range to get hit with an uptilt you'll already be hit with the fair.

 

[Crystanium]

Ness can give DK a run for his money, but DK will always have the killing power.

This Ness gives me a run for my money:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9_QPoAg7eM

I've seen better. I have Donkey Kong as my third alternative character, and my brother plays as Ness. Crio's Ness doesn't look as impressive as my brother's, let alone any of the Ness players I've come across. I'd say Earthbound360 is more of a challenge. Joe seems to use his Giant Punch a lot, especially at times when it's unnecessary.

 

[blakinola]

I find this an easy matchup for the most part. The only thing that'll give DK a lot of trouble is PK Fire (huge DK hitbox). And Ness's ridiculous spike. Even if Ness doesn't sweetspot, the attack will send you up. And when you're below the stage, that sets you up for a stage spike.

Ness is easily edgeguarded as well. I give this match to DK, 60:40

 

[PKNintendo]

DK just needs to attack PK thunder instead of air dodge it. I'm pretty sure a well timed dair, fair, bair will cancel it.
and with PK fire, DK can just up b out of it for some reason without getting hit by all of it

and everyone has a good grab game on ness, grab release to d smash is ****.

No they don't. And I just tested today. Grab release to down smash doesn't work. DI + shield. You need to test this more dude.

 

[7734]

I got pwnd by a ness player on all is brawl today.. He was insane! can't remember who it was though.. I'll get back to you on that!