[Discuss] What would happen, if Shield-Recovery takes longer!?

[Kunai KazeKun]

I wanted to ask in a competitive manner:

I just feel like, that defensive Options are to strong. Like in other Fighting-Games, where you must block low mid or overheads and where mixups are more rewarded. What do you think would happen, if Shield-Recovery time would be increased? Like 20 Second to recovery a really low shield. I dont have test it yet how fast the shield recoverys, but it feels like in 5 seconds your shield is restored fully.

Would it help Marth, DK or some other Character to get better?

In my opinion, aggressive playstyle would be more rewarded.
Also I have in mind, that Powershielding is more rewarded and needed to dont get hit through your shield. Also Shield-Moving is getting importanter.

It would also help if Shielding for to long would eat your shield really fast. As for now, you can stay in the shield for like forever. I know that a grab beats shield, but shielddrop frames got lower as well, so you can if jab him before he grabs you to break it.


So what do you think would happen, if Shield-Recovery takes longer?

 

[David Viran]

If they don't hit your shield then shield dropping takes longer in this game.

 

[Meek Moths]

everyone would cry and send letters to sakurai-san to revert the change

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You don't have a block bubble in Street fighter where if it breaks you are stunned for 4 seconds and they get the most powerful move they can muster on you.

It's considerable, but out of our reach and I don't know when this became the "what if" boards.
If I recall correctly shield health was decreased, a few characters have notable shield damage (donkey kong as a more obvious example) and absolutely can threaten a shield break as the game is.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I am kinda tired of all these hidden complaints. The game is the way it is, if you don't like it, we have project m for a reason.

 

[Kunai KazeKun]

@ RIP_Lucas
Its not complaining about the game. I was just thinking how to make the game a bit more difficulter and more rewarded for good players. Also to allow to play a bit aggressive, cause actual only fast character can play really aggressive.

And its just a discussion Just wanted to hear some opinion about what they are thinking. =)


@ ChronoPenguin

You don't have a block bubble in Street fighter where if it breaks you are stunned for 4 seconds and they get the most powerful move they can muster on you.

Are you sure these are still Bubble Hitboxes? It looks like it isnt anymore. Also in Street Fighter you get in tumble stat, who it doesnt matter if he is stunned for 1 second or longer, cause if you hit him, you will start a new combo.


To Break-Stun Recovery 4 Seconds:
Well than reduced it to 1 Second + Flying upwards. Should be ok =). And should not allowed to fullcharge any smashes =)

If I recall correctly shield health was decreased, a few characters have notable shield damage (donkey kong as a more obvious example) and absolutely can threaten a shield break as the game is.

We were not talking about decreasing shield health. All is staying the same, except for restoring shield time.



Btw. we dont know what Nintendo is planning, so this can be a thread (maybe next patch). Perhaps Nintendo ist reading this and thinks about this a bit o,o

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A small handful of characters would benefit, but the biggest effect of this would be that most people would roll when they would currently shield, pushing the metagame even more toward characters who can move backward well in neutral and making the game even campier than it already is.

 

[dragontamer]

This is the only fighting game I know of where dropping your shield causes 4-frames of punishability. Furthermore, holding block requires you to hold block for at least 14-frames, leaving you open to unblockables, grabs, and command-grabs for 18-frames. (The forced block period + 4-frames of let-go lag)

Shielding in this game is the most punishable out of all fighting games, which are otherwise frame-instant with no lag what-so-ever.

Furthermore, unlike MvC3 or other hyper-fighters (BlazBlue, GuiltyGear, Melty Blood, Arcana Hearts, etc. etc.), you don't auto-block combos. If you let go of shield during Yoshi's down-aerial, you get kicked in the face. If you let go of the block-button in MvC3 during your opponent's pressure string, you auto-block. Your opponent needs to input a frame-trap (or a high-low mixup) to get you to stop auto-blocking in your standard hyper-fighter.

In fact, the majority of hyper-fighters allow you to let go of the stick and buffer-spam DPs all day to auto-punish your opponent's frame trap.

 

[Thinkaman]

Reflex and dragontamer nailed it.

I might be inclined to complain about blocking in Smash if grabs weren't so good. We have pretty decent grab reward, no throw-escapes for instant-throws, and decent grab ranges. Smash's throws are relatively stronger than most fighting games, overall.

 

[Kunai KazeKun]

A small handful of characters would benefit, but the biggest effect of this would be that most people would roll when they would currently shield, pushing the metagame even more toward characters who can move backward well in neutral and making the game even campier than it already is.

Are you telling me that roll is in generel the better and not punishable option than shielding? Why should it get campier? In my opinion people would go aggressive, cause if the opponent shield is open lightly, you can hit him there to get throug his shield. If you attack into shield, you are getting Shieldgrabbed, if you didnt spaced well, but not many chars can Space really well and getting Shieldgrabbed, so options are limited. Also to handle the Defensive Option would take more precision, which is good for competitive gaming.

In my opinion it would also help, if the shieldstun is higher after blocking a smash-attack. Palutena's Smashes for example can all be punished, even if you hit the tip of her F-Smash and this make her F-Smash pretty useless, except for landing punish. You cant nothing risk against other people and test the reactions, without getting punisht. Thats some of the reasons, why fast chars in smash will always be better than slow ones.

Of course, Moves like Marths Neutral B, DKs Side-B or Yoshis Down-B should get a bit nerfed against a shield to not be overpowered. =)


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This is the only fighting game I know of where dropping your shield causes 4-frames of punishability. Furthermore, holding block requires you to hold block for at least 14-frames, leaving you open to unblockables, grabs, and command-grabs for 18-frames. (The forced block period + 4-frames of let-go lag)

Shielding in this game is the most punishable out of all fighting games, which are otherwise frame-instant with no lag what-so-ever.

Furthermore, unlike MvC3 or other hyper-fighters (BlazBlue, GuiltyGear, Melty Blood, Arcana Hearts, etc. etc.), you don't auto-block combos. If you let go of shield during Yoshi's down-aerial, you get kicked in the face. If you let go of the block-button in MvC3 during your opponent's pressure string, you auto-block. Your opponent needs to input a frame-trap (or a high-low mixup) to get you to stop auto-blocking in your standard hyper-fighter.

In fact, the majority of hyper-fighters allow you to let go of the stick and buffer-spam DPs all day to auto-punish your opponent's frame trap.

You are right, if you saying that the block has no ending lag, except you block attacks (Block-Stun).
But I dont agree to that Shiedling in Smash ist the most punishable situation, cause you have a lot of defensive options which makes it difficult for your opponent to attack you. Cause you can Spotdodge, Roll, Shieldgrab or do a OoS-B Attack, which makes it hard to attack.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Are you telling me that roll is in generel the better and not punishable option than shielding? Why should it get campier? In my opinion people would go aggressive, cause if the opponent shield is open lightly, you can hit him there to get throug his shield. If you attack into shield, you are getting Shieldgrabbed, if you didnt spaced well, but not many chars can Space really well and getting Shieldgrabbed, so options are limited. Also to handle the Defensive Option would take more precision, which is good for competitive gaming.

In my opinion it would also help, if the shieldstun is higher after blocking a smash-attack. Palutena's Smashes for example can all be punished, even if you hit the tip of her F-Smash and this make her F-Smash pretty useless, except for landing punish. You cant nothing risk against other people and test the reactions, without getting punisht. Thats some of the reasons, why fast chars in smash will always be better than slow ones.

Of course, Moves like Marths Neutral B, DKs Side-B or Yoshis Down-B should get a bit nerfed against a shield to not be overpowered. =)

Yes, rolling is generally better and less punishable than shielding. Many characters are physically incapable of punishing backward rolls without already touching the opponent before the roll (meaning they could've done another move, and the opponent could just attack/grab instead). It's a really safe bait option that is somewhat comparable to Melee's dashdance camping; every time Diddy Kong dashes toward you, you have to respect his banana, the potential range of F-Air, and his Forward-B grab. He can shield your preemptive attack if you go that route, letting him use the reliable punishes he's known so well for...

As such, you're largely forced to respond in some way. Diddy, on the other hand, can choose to roll backward after dashing forward, resetting the situation over and over again. If you use a move with great reach, it'll be out of range of his roll and will put you in a prime position to be punished. If you don't, then he does the same thing AGAIN, since he only lost a small amount of stage control and he only has to get you once to put you through the wringer. This isn't limited to Diddy; most characters can do this with little risk to themselves.

Prepare to see people do this an awful lot in high-level play once people get better overall.

 

[dragontamer]

every time Diddy Kong dashes toward you, you have to respect his banana, the potential range of F-Air, and his Forward-B grab. He can shield your preemptive attack if you go that route, letting him use the reliable punishes he's known so well for...

Sorry for nitpicking. But I don't believe the pressure comes from Diddy's Fair. You're probably thinking of Diddy's Forward-B Kick (which looks very much like Mario's Nair), which does protrude a fair amount of mental-pressure due to its priority and speed.

Diddy's Forward Air is inaccessible as long as he holds onto the banana. (If you try to Fair while holding an item like the bananna... you'd throw it)

You are right, if you saying that the block has no ending lag, except you block attacks (Block-Stun).

EDIT: Forgot to note. Block-stun locks you into more blocking, and also puts you in a state immune to grabs in GG, Arcana Heart, MvC3, BlazBlue, and Melty Blood. And again, block-state auto-blocks the next attack if it hits you within the block period.

Heck, in BlazBlue, MvC3 and Melty Blood, you're even immune to cross-ups during the block-stun state.

I'm going to have to say that those games have safer blocks than Smash. Now Smash doesn't have pressure-strings that are common in hyper-fighters due to low block-stun. But that just means you should focus more on the first strike against opponents, as opposed to playing character-specific mini-games every time you land a jab against your opponent's block.

But I dont agree to that Shiedling in Smash ist the most punishable situation, cause you have a lot of defensive options which makes it difficult for your opponent to attack you. Cause you can Spotdodge, Roll, Shieldgrab or do a OoS-B Attack, which makes it hard to attack.

Spotdodging and Rolling have ~4 frames of startup punishability on them. Shieldgrab is ~7 frames (typically). OoS-B attacks require you to enter the jumping-state before canceling to the attack. So all in all, Shielding adds some degree of lag to all of your options.

If you get a well-spaced, quick Marth Neutral-B off as your opponent starts to put his shield up... unless they powershield it, you pretty much are going to either hit them, or their shield. If you've got a well-timed command grab (in particular, Lucario's Force Palm) right when the opponent puts up his shield, its basically inescapable.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sorry for nitpicking. But I don't believe the pressure comes from Diddy's Fair. You're probably thinking of Diddy's Forward-B Kick, which does protrude a fair amount of mental-pressure due to its priority and speed.

Diddy's Forward Air is inaccessible as long as he holds onto the banana. Otherwise, he'd short-hop throw banana.

You can Z-Drop the banana immediately and F-Air or throw the banana and follow it up with any of those options, Forward-B grab and kick included. F-Air (and U-Air to a lesser extent) are really good at creating a "no-fly zone."

 

[dragontamer]

You can Z-Drop the banana immediately and F-Air or throw the banana and follow it up with any of those options, Forward-B grab and kick included. F-Air (and U-Air to a lesser extent) are really good at creating a "no-fly zone."

I haven't seen this technique used against me quite yet. I'll keep it in mind.

 

[Icebound]

I don't know how much this post applies, but I feel like a lot of the concerns/complaints, including mine, regarding defense options (rolls, shielding) are based on online experiences.

The problem with online is that there is always some degree of lag. And even minute lag plays a huge role in exacerbating shielding and rolling problems. I think that playing online DOES allow the opponent to shield or roll with "extra frames". This causes a lot of attacks to whiff that ordinarily wouldn't.


Does this thinking make sense? Idk it's just something I've noticed between playing lots of local and online.