Difficult Matchups? - Ask Matchup Questions Here

[NocturnalQuill]

Now that we've had our hands on the game for a while and had a chance to fight plenty of other people, we should be getting some solid matchup information. Have you guys noticed any trends?


Here are a few recurring matchups mentioned, with some tips for overcoming them:

-Rosalina is the most mentioned matchup in this thread, and for good reason. Luma can make it very difficult to approach. They key to beating her is to bypass the Luma. Hit the Luma with PK fire, then go straight in and wail on Rosalina. Be careful though, she is still capable of putting up a fight without her Luma. Get her into the air if you can, since Luma does virtually nothing there.

-Robin can also be difficult to approach, since his thunder comes out quickly and can be a little difficult to absorb. Approach him from the air and harass him with PK thunder to keep him from charging it.

-Shulk seems to be a recurring issue, but nobody's really discussed how to beat him.

 

[Code Bread]

Rosalina seems like an issue. She fights from two points of the stage so I can't stall approaches as well. Plus she can use Luma to eat PK Fire, and Luma Shot's is strong enough that it demands an aggressive approach, which Ness isn't good at. Or at least, I'm not good at it (I usually go for patient approaches).

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Rosalina seems like an issue. She fights from two points of the stage so I can't stall approaches as well. Plus she can use Luma to eat PK Fire, and Luma Shot's is strong enough that it demands an aggressive approach, which Ness isn't good at. Or at least, I'm not good at it (I usually go for patient approaches).

Interesting. I haven't really fought any Rosalinas, but Luma blocking PK fire concerns me. How hard is it to actually get rid of the Luma, and how long do you have when you do?

 

[Wiisnake]

I had some trouble with Lucina actually.

 

[Code Bread]

Interesting. I haven't really fought any Rosalinas, but Luma blocking PK fire concerns me. How hard is it to actually get rid of the Luma, and how long do you have when you do?

It's not that hard to get rid of Luma. Push Rosalina back at all and for her it's either recover or protect Luma. Most choose recover. The issue I have, and I think it would be only me, is that I can't aim for crap. When I catch Luma sleeping, I miss my approach XD

Luma can be recovered relatively easily. I'd say less than a minute, but I'm not sure exactly how long.
From what I'm getting, dealing with Rosalina is pretty much dealing with Ice Climbers. Push one back so you can get rid of the wingman (or wingstar or wingsister/wife). Once you do, she loses a lot of options and a significant amount of power. So just grab combo Rosalina and sweetspot bair bair bair bair bair on Luma.

I had some trouble with Lucina actually.

What is Lucina doing to make it difficult? I've only played one Lucina so I don't know the matchup.

 

[joniho]

Personally, the only noteworthy matchup I've noticed so far is Robin. I didn't expect him to be much of an issue with absorbable projectiles and all, but fully charged thunder comes out almost instantaneously, usually before you can get magnet up. Disjointed hitboxes aren't fun to deal with either.

Approach from the air, and be ready to PSI Magnet when at range if Robin has Thoron charged. Ideally though you should be putting pressure with PK Thunder sniping to prevent Robin from charging.

Rosalina seems like an issue. She fights from two points of the stage so I can't stall approaches as well. Plus she can use Luma to eat PK Fire, and Luma Shot's is strong enough that it demands an aggressive approach, which Ness isn't good at. Or at least, I'm not good at it (I usually go for patient approaches).

Luma eating PK Fire is a pro, not a con. You can easily spam 3+ PK Fires into Luma's face to kill it. Then you can deal with a SoRo. The only issue is that Luma sometimes hovers too high to be hit by PK Fire, and Rosalina's dash attack has weird hurtboxes.

 

[Code Bread]

Approach from the air, and be ready to PSI Magnet when at range if Robin has Thoron charged. Ideally though you should be putting pressure with PK Thunder sniping to prevent Robin from charging.



Luma eating PK Fire is a pro, not a con. You can easily spam 3+ PK Fires into Luma's face to kill it. Then you can deal with a SoRo. The only issue is that Luma sometimes hovers too high to be hit by PK Fire, and Rosalina's dash attack has weird hurtboxes.

Does Luma have a set HP before it dies? I've been hitting it off stage.

 

[Wiisnake]

It's not that hard to get rid of Luma. Push Rosalina back at all and for her it's either recover or protect Luma. Most choose recover. The issue I have, and I think it would be only me, is that I can't aim for crap. When I catch Luma sleeping, I miss my approach XD

Luma can be recovered relatively easily. I'd say less than a minute, but I'm not sure exactly how long.
From what I'm getting, dealing with Rosalina is pretty much dealing with Ice Climbers. Push one back so you can get rid of the wingman (or wingstar or wingsister/wife). Once you do, she loses a lot of options and a significant amount of power. So just grab combo Rosalina and sweetspot bair bair bair bair bair on Luma.


What is Lucina doing to make it difficult? I've only played one Lucina so I don't know the matchup.

Counter too edge guard mostly.

 

[Code Bread]

Counter too edge guard mostly.

Why not just throw out some PK Fire and not approach? If all they're doing is countering, stay out of their range. Rack up with Fire and Thunder. And counter is free grab, too.

 

[joniho]

Does Luma have a set HP before it dies? I've been hitting it off stage.

Yes it has set HP, but not sure how much exactly. Your options to remove Luma are either destroy it (it'll "pop" and die) or push it off stage. Which you choose to do depends on the situation.

 

[Code Bread]

Yes it has set HP, but not sure how much exactly. Your options to remove Luma are either destroy it (it'll "pop" and die) or push it off stage. Which you choose to do depends on the situation.

Alright, this changes my options. Thanks.

 

[Wiisnake]

Why not just throw out some PK Fire and not approach? If all they're doing is countering, stay out of their range. Rack up with Fire and Thunder. And counter is free grab, too.

It is when I have too PK thunder too make it back.

 

[Code Bread]

It is when I have too PK thunder too make it back.

I don't understand.

 

[ottobot]

what he's saying is that when trying to get back to the stage after being knocked off, lucina is countering his pkt2 to knock him off again. of course, the easiest way to get around this is just go for the ledge or get above her to recover, the ledge being the most ideal.

 

[Flindigo]

I've had so much trouble with Ganondorf. Every single one I've faced has blocked all my attacks, and his Warlock Punch with super armor doesn't help either. It's amazing how good they made him this time around.

 

[Ph.D]

Worst match ups i've had:

good falcons (his dash grab is just too good)
robin is annoying
shiek/greninja are pretty harsh
but more than anything..... SONIC... ness is just too slow ):

Edit: campy dark pits, marios/dr. marios are annoying as well

 

[ShouPao]

While I do have some difficulty against Rosalinas, I've been facing hell against ZSS for whatever reason. I just played 3 different ones in a row and I only completely beat one. Can anyone give me some tips on this matchup?

 

[Scizor44]

My hardest matchups are definitely characters that have a better projectile than pk thunder, but that I can't absorb with down special. This includes Shiek, Link, Dr. Mario, and a few others I can't think of right now.

 

[Ganreizu]

Rosalina seems like an issue. She fights from two points of the stage so I can't stall approaches as well. Plus she can use Luma to eat PK Fire, and Luma Shot's is strong enough that it demands an aggressive approach, which Ness isn't good at. Or at least, I'm not good at it (I usually go for patient approaches).

Would the power pk fire custom (the one that does like, 50% damage on it's own) help in this matchup? Luma disappears after a certain amount of damage is done, and since she's an AI i'm sure she would have a lot of trouble getting out of it despite how easy it is for a normal person to do it. Rosalina might be distracted bringing luma back to her, so this situation can then be used to approach a luma-less rosalina.

 

[PKIvysaur]

I'm having soooo many problems with swordsmen and peach.

Range and turnips are really pissing me off

 

[ottobot]

i'm suprised that swordsmen would be a problem. i generally reply to them by outranging them with projectiles, which ness has a couple of. Also, in my experience fair works nicely but that really requires more data to be sure of.

 

[Swedish_Otaku]

I only had problems with Link, Sheik, Pikachu, Lucario, C. Falcon and Mii Sword fighter when fighting lv. 9 CPUs. Online it seems to be Shulk, Robin and Lucario that I have the biggest problems with. And obviously if someone is really good and uses one of the best characters like Bowser or ZSS it's gonna be difficult.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Since I got a decent number of replies, I'm going to update the original post with a list of difficult matchups and how to beat them, based on trends in this thread.

 

[kennypu]

currently by far, the worse match up for ness is Rosalina. She forces you to play as if you're playing little mac. Once you're off stage, all she has to do is follow you and wait for your upb, where she will just down-b and you die. Now that his dair is harder to hit with/spike, it is much harder to punish if she comes down with you as well.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

currently by far, the worse match up for ness is Rosalina. She forces you to play as if you're playing little mac. Once you're off stage, all she has to do is follow you and wait for your upb, where she will just down-b and you die. Now that his dair is harder to hit with/spike, it is much harder to punish if she comes down with you as well.

I actually had a good match with a pretty skilled Rosalina about an hour ago, and I was able to pick up on a few thing. Two key things, actually:
1. Rosalina is not like Ice Climbers. Don't focus all your efforts on taking out the Luma and neglect racking up damage on Rosalina. Luma is more of an extension of her, not half of her like Nana. She is perfectly capable of killing you without Luma. Additionally, the Luma respawns fairly quickly.

2. As far as positioning goes, I found that the best place to be was between Rosalina and the Luma after she sends it out. This more or less negates her Luma techniques. Rosalina loves to fight at medium range. Get in her face, PK fire her, throw her, everything. Approach her from air if coming from a ways away too, since Luma is stuck on the ground.

 

[Fachewachewa]

Hi there fellow Ness players, here's what I found :

- Rosalina : as you said, this matchup can be pretty hard, when luma is with rosalina, he's zoning out Pk fire, she's too far and he's too high. But you can jump Pk fire on Luma, then go for Rosalina. So I don't know if it's really that hard. I'd say she has trouble dealing with attacks coming from diagonal angles if luma's not there.

- Greninja : this one is hell. I had a lot of trouble with greninja's up smash, it's so fast and it covers a lot of space, you cant really approach from the air. Plus he has shurikens and he's faaast. I found the best way to fight him is to get him in the air while you're on the ground, maybe even bait a Dair. Look out for his shadow sneak too, you can jump and punish it easily.

- Shulk : I did not fight many good shulk, but his aerials are BIG, really hard to approach from the air

- Megaman : can be annoying. This may be just me, but I hate his up smash. Anyway I think PK fire are good against him, maybe against his sawblade too. Also absorb his smash, they tend to use it on the edge when you're recovering.

- Peach : Floating above PK fire, big Fair. Maybe keep her away with PK thunder, it's better than turnips.

- Sheik : i HATE her. The juggles are killing me, she's too fast. Just spam nair against her in the air, I think ?

Finally, i'd say Pacman and Sonic are annoying, but that just because I can't understand what they're doing, especially Sonic.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Mega Man's upsmash is scary, but we can absorb half his attacks. He's very, VERY punishable.

Updating the main post with a few matchups.

 

[Scizor44]

With Robin, just use you down b when he's at a distance and looks like he's ready to unleash fully charged thoron. Nair Works really well to edgeguard him when he's flying up with up b.

 

[thesage]

In the sonic matchup you have to use nair to outprioritize him. He has a lot of fast moves that are hard to react to online so you MUST predict him constantly. I'm sure offline he'll be pretty easy to deal with.

Rosalina is probably a very bad matchup. You can't realy pkt juggle her because her down b and luma eats pk fire. You have to get her in the air and then bait a down b and then punish. Make sure you don't let her set up her luma combos lol. Her d-smash combos with luma very well.

I really need to play some good people since I haven't really found "good" people on for glory.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

All of them are hard to me x.x

 

[Naeroon]

Shulk is probably the most infuriating for me. Crazy range, attack hitboxes last for so long, and so much radius with his moves that you aren't safe on either side of him. Plus he can make himself the heavies character in the game, making KOs even more difficult. I like to play any and all match-ups, but I usually quit against a shulk after a single game. Damn, I'm salty.

EDIT: I should also add that my biggest problem isn't due to the inherent challenge, but mainly that any and all responses I attempt are shut down and I've run out of ideas.

 

[Freikugel]

Greninja, Shulk and Game and Watch have been pet peeves of mine. Overall, I have trouble pinning fast characters.

My projectile-heavy playstyle feeds G&W's Oil Panic, which forces me to go physical. It isn't hard, but a nuisance nonetheless.

And Shulk automatically gets free Visions if he jumps into PK Fire (which is actually really smart). Same thing with other characters with a counter, but Vision's range aggravates it. It becomes a game of predicting the counter activation and punishing accordingly, preferably with a grab.

I haven't had much trouble otherwise.

 

[ScarletDragon]

i been getting walled by a good amount of Bowser, megamans, and Little macs. Anyone got tips for them?

 

[Fachewachewa]

I'll say what seems to be working for me, hope it helps

Bowser being a heavy, you can easily pull out PK fire (maybe another one or two) > downthrow > fair > fair > fair / nair / upair
You can also bait his down B and punish

Megaman : absorb everythin ! You can absord crash bombs, jump before your psi magnet to avoid megaman's sawblade. Megaman's pellet can be absorbed too, and of course his smash. But megaman tend to be predictable on his smash, so you can throw it back at him with your bat, it's VERY effective.

Little macs : hm... jump a lot, if you're high percent, they usually try to kill you with an upB, so you ban bait it, dodge ans punish. The biggest problem for me with little mac are his jabs, so watch out for this. His other attacks are easily avoided, I usually jumpdodge > bair, but you'll have to approche with some aerials before that. And don't be scared to PK thunder.

 

[JML]

Probably my most difficult match ups are against & . Mostly because I find it hard to approach both link & toon link, and game & watch has his bucket.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I got absolutely creamed by a Captain Falcon today. His grab range is a lot longer than Ness's and if he launched me into the air I had a really tough time not getting juggled. I managed to literally trip him up one match by mashing dtilt whenever he ran at me for the grab, but it wasn't foolproof and in the end he just felt like a much stronger character. Any tips?

 

[JML]

I got absolutely creamed by a Captain Falcon today. His grab range is a lot longer than Ness's and if he launched me into the air I had a really tough time not getting juggled. I managed to literally trip him up one match by mashing dtilt whenever he ran at me for the grab, but it wasn't foolproof and in the end he just felt like a much stronger character. Any tips?

Learn to avoid grabs? Honestly. You can punish his running grabs with a pika-fire if you're spaced well enough. Then I would either dash-A attack or down grab + fair + fair.

Most of the C.Falcons I've played as Ness tended to fall into the same habits, so when you're recovering in the air, learn when he normally tries to connect a hit and dodge then, especially since his moves tend to have one sweet spot only. That's more general advice haha.

I would say don't engage him in aerial combat when you're recovering. Especially because his moves have so much priority. You're going to have to play a little safer with him and punish his mistakes with your aerials/throws.

Also, short hops will jump over his grounded falcon kick. So if you're hopping a lot, he'll probably miss. I usually follow up grounded falcon kicks with a short hop + bair if I'm close enough.

Also once you get far enough from him, and he's recovering I would recommend using pikathunder to chase him and juggle him. This way you can stay away from his higher priority aerials and rack up some nice damage or a lucky KO.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Not sure if this is widely known, but for everyone having trouble with Pac Man, his fire hydrant is launchable with all of your smashes. If he tries to drop it on you, upsmash it. If he puts it down and gets behind it, fsmash it. Downsmash if it's behind you. It does pretty decent damage and knockback, and they never expect it.

 

[Code Bread]

The hydrant is useful for getting unexpected kills. But is upsmash fast enough to hit the hydrant before it lands? I've never tried, but it falls pretty fast.

 

[KingCesar]

Ganon gives me trouble.