Did we have an official pac-man dream buffs for future patches?

[ZeoLightning]

I need someone to confirm this, because it's probably a placebo, but I believe they mightve fixed his hitbox problems on grab and dtilt...

nope

 

[NouveauRétro]

I need someone to confirm this, because it's probably a placebo, but I believe they mightve fixed his hitbox problems on grab and dtilt...

He had hitbox problems on dtilt? Would it go through characters?

 

[Kaiyedy]

He had hitbox problems on dtilt? Would it go through characters?

when he's too close to someone it'll miss and go throught them.

Also apperently Pac wasn't touched so idk if anything was changed or what.

 

[Direspect only!]

Only wierd thing I noticed was sometimes it would hit them backwards

 

[Furret24]

Can I do a dream patch/buff list for Pac-Man here?
- Give Forward Smash a small connecting hitbox before the ghost hitbox to prevent whiffing.
- Forward and Up Smash, either (both)-
- Make them both faster by 3 frames, as well as reducing their endlag by 5-10 frames. For their "okay" power, they're almost as laggy as Palutena's.
- Make them stronger. If they're going to be so slow, atleast make them powerful and threatening.
- Reduce start-up and endlag on Down Smash (5 frames on start-up and 5-10 on the endlag)) and make it stronger. Outside of it's decent damage output, the move is garbage.
- Fix our grab.
- Buff either Back or Up Throw's kill power so our reward for actually pulling off a grab is really worth it.
- Make Gaxlaxian do 11% again.

tl;dr version
- Buff smashes
- Improve grab game
- Revert Gaxlaxian to 11%

 

[NouveauRétro]

Why should Galaxian do 11% again? I picked up the game after the nerf so I'd like to know why we really need this back.

 

[Furret24]

Why should Galaxian do 11% again? I picked up the game after the nerf so I'd like to know why we really need this back.

It's not really a necessity, but it makes for better damage racking and combos.

 

[Kaiyedy]

It's not really a necessity, but it makes for better damage racking and combos.

I see what people mean by this, but if they buff it back then literally what's the point of using any other fruits besides galaxian bell and key?

 

[Furret24]

I see what people mean by this, but if they buff it back then literally what's the point of using any other fruits besides galaxian bell and key?

The apple is useful offstage due to it's diagonal angle, bell is good for setups, and orange can be useful for zoning.

I find most of the fruit to serve some sort of use.

 

[verbatim]

Apple kills and it's hard for your opponent to see it coming and shield if you b-reverse it mid-air

The primary use of the first 3 fruits is poking, tech chasing, and sniping offstage, when you want the kill you go Bell Apple or Key.

 

[xzx]

Here is my opinions to what they need to do in order to make PAC-MAN (more) viable and on par with solid, fine-tuned characters:

> Grab: less start-up, less endlag, the hand should have a grabbox, the whole beam should be covered in grabboxes, the whole animation needs to be sped up and the grab should be a little longer.
> Pummel: a little faster

> Up-throw: stronger and do 7.5% (from 5%) with less endlag
> F-throw: should send at a lower trajectory and more close to the ground and do 7% (from 6%)
> D-throw: fine as it is, but should have a little less endlag
> B-throw: stronger with much less endlag, do 13% (from 11%)

> Jab: fine as it is
> F-tilt: tweak it (animation and hitbox) and remove the "shortened" version where if PAC-MAN walks as he f-tilt it gets shorter (f-tilt glitch)
> Up-tilt: fine as it is
> D-tilt: all hitboxes should send forwards (and not backwards as some hitboxes tend to do), the tip should be stronger and do 8% while the rest 7% (from 6%)
> Dash attack: The chomps should be faster

> F-smash: less endlag
> Up-smash: a little bit stronger
> D-smash: less start-up, less endlag, do 14% (from 13%), should be stronger, back hit stronger than the front one

> Nair: fine as it is
> Fair: remove the landing lag when the attack has finished/PAC-MAN has spun (even after PAC-MAN has spun he can receive this landing lag), do 5.5% (from 5.3%), do more knockback/hitstun, less landing lag
> Up-air: a little faster start-up and less endlag, needs more knockback growth and a little more base knockback
> Bair: should linger more, more active frames on sweetspot, do 12% (from 11.8%), less landing lag, should be much stronger
> Dair: hits 1-3 should do 2% (from 1.5%) and hit 4 7% (from 6%; total 13%), should be stronger, last hit should be a meteor smash, hits 1-3 should give more hitstun and pull upwards a little, less landing lag, less endlag, should autocancel if PAC-MAN is not landing on the ground before the move ends

> Bonus Fruit: throws should have a little less endlag, should fire off quicker, hitbox renewal upon collision with attacks, shouldn't be able to be caught during the "flying time"

- Cherry: fine as it is
- Strawberry: fine as it is
- Orange: fine as it is
- Apple: should fire off at a steeper angle, more knockback growth
- Melon: do 14% (from 12%), should do more base knockback and knockback growth, do much more shield damage (shield breaker move)
- Galaxian: do 10% each hit (from 9%), travel faster, do more hitstun
- Bell: do 12% (from 8%), should be stronger, should travel faster, should always stun (not Z-dropped)
- Key: more knockback growth

> Hydrant: HP 15% instead of 13%, dropped hydrant shouldn't have a hurtbox (preventing it from being launched in the air), dropped hydrant should meteor smash, do 10% (from 9%), water should always spray to the sides even if an upwards blast comes

> Power Pellet: should be much stronger (especially the strongest hit), fully charged Power Pellet hit should do 19% (from 12%), attack in general should do more damage, should have much less endlag, do more shield damage, when PAC-MAN starts chomping on the dots the Power Pellet cannot be knocked off, all "dot-chomping" hitboxes should send the opponent to the Power Pellet if possible, "stage-to-offstage" crash animation should be halved

> Pac-Jump (Trampoline): last bounce (=PAC-MAN chomping) should be a KO move and do more damage, bounces made should send anyone making contact with them downwards, trampoline should stick out more


tl;dr: Mainly, PAC-MAN should be stronger, do more damage and get fixed in some areas (most notably, grab).

 

[Furret24]

I swear that list is almost as ridiculous as my initial G&W dream patch list. Pac-Man's already a pretty solid character. Outside of buffing our grab game, smashes, and the removal of the Side Special "crashing" animation, there's not much we really need.

 

[ZeoLightning]

Here is my opinions to what they need to do in order to make PAC-MAN (more) viable and on par with solid, fine-tuned characters:

> Grab: less start-up, less endlag, the hand should have a grabbox, the whole beam should be covered in grabboxes, the whole animation needs to be sped up and the grab should be a little longer.
> Pummel: a little faster

> Up-throw: stronger and do 7.5% (from 5%) with less endlag
> F-throw: should send at a lower trajectory and more close to the ground and do 7% (from 6%)
> D-throw: fine as it is, but should have a little less endlag
> B-throw: stronger with much less endlag, do 13% (from 11%)

> Jab: fine as it is
> F-tilt: tweak it (animation and hitbox) and remove the "shortened" version where if PAC-MAN walks as he f-tilt it gets shorter (f-tilt glitch)
> Up-tilt: fine as it is
> D-tilt: all hitboxes should send forwards (and not backwards as some hitboxes tend to do), the tip should be stronger and do 8% while the rest 7% (from 6%)
> Dash attack: The chomps should be faster

> F-smash: less endlag
> Up-smash: a little bit stronger
> D-smash: less start-up, less endlag, do 14% (from 13%), should be stronger, back hit stronger than the front one

> Nair: fine as it is
> Fair: remove the landing lag when the attack has finished/PAC-MAN has spun (even after PAC-MAN has spun he can receive this landing lag), do 5.5% (from 5.3%), do more knockback/hitstun, less landing lag
> Up-air: a little faster start-up and less endlag, needs more knockback growth and a little more base knockback
> Bair: should linger more, more active frames on sweetspot, do 12% (from 11.8%), less landing lag, should be much stronger
> Dair: hits 1-3 should do 2% (from 1.5%) and hit 4 7% (from 6%; total 13%), should be stronger, last hit should be a meteor smash, hits 1-3 should give more hitstun and pull upwards a little, less landing lag, less endlag, should autocancel if PAC-MAN is not landing on the ground before the move ends

> Bonus Fruit: throws should have a little less endlag, should fire off quicker, hitbox renewal upon collision with attacks, shouldn't be able to be caught during the "flying time"

- Cherry: fine as it is
- Strawberry: fine as it is
- Orange: fine as it is
- Apple: should fire off at a steeper angle, more knockback growth
- Melon: do 14% (from 12%), should do more base knockback and knockback growth, do much more shield damage (shield breaker move)
- Galaxian: do 10% each hit (from 9%), travel faster, do more hitstun
- Bell: do 12% (from 8%), should be stronger, should travel faster, should always stun (not Z-dropped)
- Key: more knockback growth

> Hydrant: HP 15% instead of 13%, dropped hydrant shouldn't have a hurtbox (preventing it from being launched in the air), dropped hydrant should meteor smash, do 10% (from 9%), water should always spray to the sides even if an upwards blast comes

> Power Pellet: should be much stronger (especially the strongest hit), fully charged Power Pellet hit should do 19% (from 12%), attack in general should do more damage, should have much less endlag, do more shield damage, when PAC-MAN starts chomping on the dots the Power Pellet cannot be knocked off, all "dot-chomping" hitboxes should send the opponent to the Power Pellet if possible, "stage-to-offstage" crash animation should be halved

> Pac-Jump (Trampoline): last bounce (=PAC-MAN chomping) should be a KO move and do more damage, bounces made should send anyone making contact with them downwards, trampoline should stick out more


tl;dr: Mainly, PAC-MAN should be stronger, do more damage and get fixed in some areas (most notably, grab).

Pac man really doesnt need all of that, and most of it is honestly unnecessary, its wishful thinking and i agree with alot of these but realistically, we just need a better grab, better grab rewards and the floor wall miss removed (best way to remove it is to reduce landing knockback from side b into floor or wall). he's pretty fine tuned as is

 

[verbatim]

idk I feel like Pacman would go top tier if fruits and hydrant cannot be clanked with/nullfied with a hitbox/grabbed, even if his grab didn't get fixed. It won't happen but I can dream.

 

[Nu~]

Here is my opinions to what they need to do in order to make PAC-MAN (more) viable and on par with solid, fine-tuned characters:

> Grab: less start-up, less endlag, the hand should have a grabbox, the whole beam should be covered in grabboxes, the whole animation needs to be sped up and the grab should be a little longer.
> Pummel: a little faster

> Up-throw: stronger and do 7.5% (from 5%) with less endlag
> F-throw: should send at a lower trajectory and more close to the ground and do 7% (from 6%)
> D-throw: fine as it is, but should have a little less endlag
> B-throw: stronger with much less endlag, do 13% (from 11%)

> Jab: fine as it is
> F-tilt: tweak it (animation and hitbox) and remove the "shortened" version where if PAC-MAN walks as he f-tilt it gets shorter (f-tilt glitch)
> Up-tilt: fine as it is
> D-tilt: all hitboxes should send forwards (and not backwards as some hitboxes tend to do), the tip should be stronger and do 8% while the rest 7% (from 6%)
> Dash attack: The chomps should be faster

> F-smash: less endlag
> Up-smash: a little bit stronger
> D-smash: less start-up, less endlag, do 14% (from 13%), should be stronger, back hit stronger than the front one

> Nair: fine as it is
> Fair: remove the landing lag when the attack has finished/PAC-MAN has spun (even after PAC-MAN has spun he can receive this landing lag), do 5.5% (from 5.3%), do more knockback/hitstun, less landing lag
> Up-air: a little faster start-up and less endlag, needs more knockback growth and a little more base knockback
> Bair: should linger more, more active frames on sweetspot, do 12% (from 11.8%), less landing lag, should be much stronger
> Dair: hits 1-3 should do 2% (from 1.5%) and hit 4 7% (from 6%; total 13%), should be stronger, last hit should be a meteor smash, hits 1-3 should give more hitstun and pull upwards a little, less landing lag, less endlag, should autocancel if PAC-MAN is not landing on the ground before the move ends

> Bonus Fruit: throws should have a little less endlag, should fire off quicker, hitbox renewal upon collision with attacks, shouldn't be able to be caught during the "flying time"

- Cherry: fine as it is
- Strawberry: fine as it is
- Orange: fine as it is
- Apple: should fire off at a steeper angle, more knockback growth
- Melon: do 14% (from 12%), should do more base knockback and knockback growth, do much more shield damage (shield breaker move)
- Galaxian: do 10% each hit (from 9%), travel faster, do more hitstun
- Bell: do 12% (from 8%), should be stronger, should travel faster, should always stun (not Z-dropped)
- Key: more knockback growth

> Hydrant: HP 15% instead of 13%, dropped hydrant shouldn't have a hurtbox (preventing it from being launched in the air), dropped hydrant should meteor smash, do 10% (from 9%), water should always spray to the sides even if an upwards blast comes

> Power Pellet: should be much stronger (especially the strongest hit), fully charged Power Pellet hit should do 19% (from 12%), attack in general should do more damage, should have much less endlag, do more shield damage, when PAC-MAN starts chomping on the dots the Power Pellet cannot be knocked off, all "dot-chomping" hitboxes should send the opponent to the Power Pellet if possible, "stage-to-offstage" crash animation should be halved

> Pac-Jump (Trampoline): last bounce (=PAC-MAN chomping) should be a KO move and do more damage, bounces made should send anyone making contact with them downwards, trampoline should stick out more


tl;dr: Mainly, PAC-MAN should be stronger, do more damage and get fixed in some areas (most notably, grab).

Pick shiek

 

[xzx]

Oh, I also forgot to add that Bonus Fruit should deal more shield damage.

Furret24 : Ridiculous or not, I don't care. I can't stand how other characters can get unnecessary luxury in the damage- and power department. PAC-MAN's bair cannot even kill at 150% but Captain Falcon's d-tilt can KO at around 130%? Peach's F-throw does 10% but PAC-MAN's b-throw 11%? Like, he literally swings full force and throws so hard he needs to catch a break... While all Peach does is slap you in the face. Why wouldn't I be mad? I guess I am in the minority of us PAC-MAN mains that believes PAC-MAN has many flaws and should be buffed. Why people think PAC-MAN is good in the first place is just because no one knows the matchup and the things PAC-MAN players do turns out to work even though it shouldn't, just because of the opponent's lack of matchup knowledge. Personally, I firmly believe that PAC-MAN is lower mid tier, and mid midtier at best. Just watch in a couple of years, if people haven't learned the matchup and counterplay us with our own tools. But maybe this is a discussion for another day...

ZeoLightning : Yeah, maybe, but I have to disagree. He's not as fine tuned as you think he is. Oh well, since people believe he is, maybe Sakurai should just carry on ignoring PAC-MAN and think he doesn't need anything at all, since PAC-MAN players think he doesn't need anything but a fix to his grab. Sorry, my fault. | Hey Sakurai, just fix the stuff that needs to be fixed and throw away that bair power buff you've got. | ;P

verbatim : No he wouldn't lol. Even so, is there a problem with that? You can still shield the Bonus Fruit, or dodge them or whatever, just like any other item/projectile, like Wario's bike, Wii Fit Trainer's sun salutation, Sheik's needles etc. PAC-MAN's best tool can be used against him, and that is something I want to be prevented, especially now since you can grab any item at like frame 1 of an aerial. If only Sheik's fair could be used against her...

Nu~ : Nah, why would I? PAC-MAN beats Sheik hard already anyway, so I see no reason for that...

 

[Furret24]

Oh, I also forgot to add that Bonus Fruit should deal more shield damage.

Furret24 : Ridiculous or not, I don't care. I can't stand how other characters can get unnecessary luxury in the damage- and power department. PAC-MAN's bair cannot even kill at 150% but Captain Falcon's d-tilt can KO at around 130%? Peach's F-throw does 10% but PAC-MAN's b-throw 11%? Like, he literally swings full force and throws so hard he needs to catch a break... While all Peach does is slap you in the face. Why wouldn't I be mad? I guess I am in the minority of us PAC-MAN mains that believes PAC-MAN has many flaws and should be buffed. Why people think PAC-MAN is good in the first place is just because no one knows the matchup and the things PAC-MAN players do turns out to work even though it shouldn't, just because of the opponent's lack of matchup knowledge. Personally, I firmly believe that PAC-MAN is lower mid tier, and mid midtier at best. Just watch in a couple of years, if people haven't learned the matchup and counterplay us with our own tools. But maybe this is a discussion for another day...

Pac-Man was not designed to be a powerhouse (unlike C. Falcon). He is a mix-up character, a character that uses his/her different moves to make them difficult to predict and get good damage and follow-ups out of. His damage output is fine. It may not be great, but hey, that didn't stop Sheik and Meta Knight doing good did it?

Also, as a Game and Watch main (and former Duck Hunt main)...

Please don't complain about killing issues. You've got it easy compared to us.

 

[Nu~]

Oh, I also forgot to add that Bonus Fruit should deal more shield damage.

Furret24 : Ridiculous or not, I don't care. I can't stand how other characters can get unnecessary luxury in the damage- and power department. PAC-MAN's bair cannot even kill at 150% but Captain Falcon's d-tilt can KO at around 130%? Peach's F-throw does 10% but PAC-MAN's b-throw 11%? Like, he literally swings full force and throws so hard he needs to catch a break... While all Peach does is slap you in the face. Why wouldn't I be mad? I guess I am in the minority of us PAC-MAN mains that believes PAC-MAN has many flaws and should be buffed. Why people think PAC-MAN is good in the first place is just because no one knows the matchup and the things PAC-MAN players do turns out to work even though it shouldn't, just because of the opponent's lack of matchup knowledge. Personally, I firmly believe that PAC-MAN is lower mid tier, and mid midtier at best. Just watch in a couple of years, if people haven't learned the matchup and counterplay us with our own tools. But maybe this is a discussion for another day...

ZeoLightning : Yeah, maybe, but I have to disagree. He's not as fine tuned as you think he is. Oh well, since people believe he is, maybe Sakurai should just carry on ignoring PAC-MAN and think he doesn't need anything at all, since PAC-MAN players think he doesn't need anything but a fix to his grab. Sorry, my fault. | Hey Sakurai, just fix the stuff that needs to be fixed and throw away that bair power buff you've got. | ;P

verbatim : No he wouldn't lol. Even so, is there a problem with that? You can still shield the Bonus Fruit, or dodge them or whatever, just like any other item/projectile, like Wario's bike, Wii Fit Trainer's sun salutation, Sheik's needles etc. PAC-MAN's best tool can be used against him, and that is something I want to be prevented, especially now since you can grab any item at like frame 1 of an aerial. If only Sheik's fair could be used against her...

Nu~ : Nah, why would I? PAC-MAN beats Sheik hard already anyway, so I see no reason for that...

Whatever man.

While the rest of the people here are innovators and problem solvers, you can sit back and hope for buffs that won't happen.

You honestly need a character change or a different frame of mind because that list is insanity. You are asking for another character. An overpowered one at that

 

[Kaiyedy]

Here is my opinions to what they need to do in order to make PAC-MAN (more) viable and on par with solid, fine-tuned characters:

> Grab: less start-up, less endlag, the hand should have a grabbox, the whole beam should be covered in grabboxes, the whole animation needs to be sped up and the grab should be a little longer.
> Pummel: a little faster

> Up-throw: stronger and do 7.5% (from 5%) with less endlag
> F-throw: should send at a lower trajectory and more close to the ground and do 7% (from 6%)
> D-throw: fine as it is, but should have a little less endlag
> B-throw: stronger with much less endlag, do 13% (from 11%)

> Jab: fine as it is
> F-tilt: tweak it (animation and hitbox) and remove the "shortened" version where if PAC-MAN walks as he f-tilt it gets shorter (f-tilt glitch)
> Up-tilt: fine as it is
> D-tilt: all hitboxes should send forwards (and not backwards as some hitboxes tend to do), the tip should be stronger and do 8% while the rest 7% (from 6%)
> Dash attack: The chomps should be faster

> F-smash: less endlag
> Up-smash: a little bit stronger
> D-smash: less start-up, less endlag, do 14% (from 13%), should be stronger, back hit stronger than the front one

> Nair: fine as it is
> Fair: remove the landing lag when the attack has finished/PAC-MAN has spun (even after PAC-MAN has spun he can receive this landing lag), do 5.5% (from 5.3%), do more knockback/hitstun, less landing lag
> Up-air: a little faster start-up and less endlag, needs more knockback growth and a little more base knockback
> Bair: should linger more, more active frames on sweetspot, do 12% (from 11.8%), less landing lag, should be much stronger
> Dair: hits 1-3 should do 2% (from 1.5%) and hit 4 7% (from 6%; total 13%), should be stronger, last hit should be a meteor smash, hits 1-3 should give more hitstun and pull upwards a little, less landing lag, less endlag, should autocancel if PAC-MAN is not landing on the ground before the move ends

> Bonus Fruit: throws should have a little less endlag, should fire off quicker, hitbox renewal upon collision with attacks, shouldn't be able to be caught during the "flying time"

- Cherry: fine as it is
- Strawberry: fine as it is
- Orange: fine as it is
- Apple: should fire off at a steeper angle, more knockback growth
- Melon: do 14% (from 12%), should do more base knockback and knockback growth, do much more shield damage (shield breaker move)
- Galaxian: do 10% each hit (from 9%), travel faster, do more hitstun
- Bell: do 12% (from 8%), should be stronger, should travel faster, should always stun (not Z-dropped)
- Key: more knockback growth

> Hydrant: HP 15% instead of 13%, dropped hydrant shouldn't have a hurtbox (preventing it from being launched in the air), dropped hydrant should meteor smash, do 10% (from 9%), water should always spray to the sides even if an upwards blast comes

> Power Pellet: should be much stronger (especially the strongest hit), fully charged Power Pellet hit should do 19% (from 12%), attack in general should do more damage, should have much less endlag, do more shield damage, when PAC-MAN starts chomping on the dots the Power Pellet cannot be knocked off, all "dot-chomping" hitboxes should send the opponent to the Power Pellet if possible, "stage-to-offstage" crash animation should be halved

> Pac-Jump (Trampoline): last bounce (=PAC-MAN chomping) should be a KO move and do more damage, bounces made should send anyone making contact with them downwards, trampoline should stick out more


tl;dr: Mainly, PAC-MAN should be stronger, do more damage and get fixed in some areas (most notably, grab).

Let me try and list some of the things that are wrong with this:

-Did you say that the bell should stun when it's z-dropped? That would be the most broken thing in the game...

-How/why would making the last hit on Pac's up b kill be useful in any way? You couldn't use in on the stage, even when someone is trying to land because you'd be in special fall. That's punish city.

-Wouldn't your proposition for f-throw just be another down throw?

-The power pellet is already powerful, it doesn't really need a buff...

 

[verbatim]

from my experience if you hit someone with the best hitbox on power pellet in the air or off stage you're going to kill them already, and even if you don't you can stage spike with the super armor. This isn't a move you should be using when both you and your opponent are level to each other on a flat surface.

 

[Kaiyedy]

Oh, I also forgot to add that Bonus Fruit should deal more shield damage.

Furret24 : Ridiculous or not, I don't care. I can't stand how other characters can get unnecessary luxury in the damage- and power department. PAC-MAN's bair cannot even kill at 150% but Captain Falcon's d-tilt can KO at around 130%? Peach's F-throw does 10% but PAC-MAN's b-throw 11%? Like, he literally swings full force and throws so hard he needs to catch a break... While all Peach does is slap you in the face. Why wouldn't I be mad? I guess I am in the minority of us PAC-MAN mains that believes PAC-MAN has many flaws and should be buffed. Why people think PAC-MAN is good in the first place is just because no one knows the matchup and the things PAC-MAN players do turns out to work even though it shouldn't, just because of the opponent's lack of matchup knowledge. Personally, I firmly believe that PAC-MAN is lower mid tier, and mid midtier at best. Just watch in a couple of years, if people haven't learned the matchup and counterplay us with our own tools. But maybe this is a discussion for another day...

ZeoLightning : Yeah, maybe, but I have to disagree. He's not as fine tuned as you think he is. Oh well, since people believe he is, maybe Sakurai should just carry on ignoring PAC-MAN and think he doesn't need anything at all, since PAC-MAN players think he doesn't need anything but a fix to his grab. Sorry, my fault. | Hey Sakurai, just fix the stuff that needs to be fixed and throw away that bair power buff you've got. | ;P

verbatim : No he wouldn't lol. Even so, is there a problem with that? You can still shield the Bonus Fruit, or dodge them or whatever, just like any other item/projectile, like Wario's bike, Wii Fit Trainer's sun salutation, Sheik's needles etc. PAC-MAN's best tool can be used against him, and that is something I want to be prevented, especially now since you can grab any item at like frame 1 of an aerial. If only Sheik's fair could be used against her...

Nu~ : Nah, why would I? PAC-MAN beats Sheik hard already anyway, so I see no reason for that...

Alright, for your first point, I have a couple of things to say. For one, my opinion on Pac is that, yes, he needs a few more buffs than just with his grab. However, those buffs are only so he can kill a bit earlier. But that's really only plausible for back/up throw. If you think Pac's underpowered, think about the hydrant and key. Those two are hard to dodge (and I'm pretty sure hydrant is one of the only moves that's safe against a Rosa's uair if you space right) and can kill pretty early, not to mention you can charge the key anywhere on the stage and throw it insanely fast.

Second, don't complain about how bad a character is, especially if that character is your main. If you think Pac is bad and that the only reason people are losing against him then do one of these things: Look up Abadongo; Get another main; or GET GOOD SON.

Thirdly, Daddy Sakurai is not ignoring him. He probably thinks that he's fine where he is, and since the opinions from Japanese smashers most likely get to his ears first (he actually goes to tournaments in Japan to take notes, I believe) and Abadongo plays there, Sakurai has seen what Pac can do.

Fourthly, yes, his tools can be used against him. However, someone shielding his fruits is exactly what you want. You should use that chance to go on z-dropping sprees and overwhelm them. And Sheiks fair being used against her? What?

Lastly, did you just go from complaining about Sheik to saying that "PAC-MAN beats Sheik hard"?

 

[Nu~]

Lastly, did you just go from complaining about Sheik to saying that "PAC-MAN beats Sheik hard"?

He was mocking me (albeit immaturely) because I previously explained why the sheik matchup is even.

 

[ZeoLightning]

Oh, I also forgot to add that Bonus Fruit should deal more shield damage.

Furret24 : Ridiculous or not, I don't care. I can't stand how other characters can get unnecessary luxury in the damage- and power department. PAC-MAN's bair cannot even kill at 150% but Captain Falcon's d-tilt can KO at around 130%? Peach's F-throw does 10% but PAC-MAN's b-throw 11%? Like, he literally swings full force and throws so hard he needs to catch a break... While all Peach does is slap you in the face. Why wouldn't I be mad? I guess I am in the minority of us PAC-MAN mains that believes PAC-MAN has many flaws and should be buffed. Why people think PAC-MAN is good in the first place is just because no one knows the matchup and the things PAC-MAN players do turns out to work even though it shouldn't, just because of the opponent's lack of matchup knowledge. Personally, I firmly believe that PAC-MAN is lower mid tier, and mid midtier at best. Just watch in a couple of years, if people haven't learned the matchup and counterplay us with our own tools. But maybe this is a discussion for another day...

ZeoLightning : Yeah, maybe, but I have to disagree. He's not as fine tuned as you think he is. Oh well, since people believe he is, maybe Sakurai should just carry on ignoring PAC-MAN and think he doesn't need anything at all, since PAC-MAN players think he doesn't need anything but a fix to his grab. Sorry, my fault. | Hey Sakurai, just fix the stuff that needs to be fixed and throw away that bair power buff you've got. | ;P

verbatim : No he wouldn't lol. Even so, is there a problem with that? You can still shield the Bonus Fruit, or dodge them or whatever, just like any other item/projectile, like Wario's bike, Wii Fit Trainer's sun salutation, Sheik's needles etc. PAC-MAN's best tool can be used against him, and that is something I want to be prevented, especially now since you can grab any item at like frame 1 of an aerial. If only Sheik's fair could be used against her...

Nu~ : Nah, why would I? PAC-MAN beats Sheik hard already anyway, so I see no reason for that...

The main issue i have is giving PAC-MAN too many benefits, i think the best part of playing PAC-MAN for me is working for setups, traps and follow ups. giving him all these safer options and power buffs would make PAC honestly a little OP, he's already very solid. i can agree with fixing hitboxes and possibly some advances in end lag or speeding up a move, but power buffs are unnecessary and making too many of PAC man's options safe would make him way to hard to punish. you might disagree but thats fine. but all i want is just some better grabs, better grab box, the floor wall miss removed and maybe those hitbox fixes you mentioned

 

[gamecubeguy214]

The thing that first comes to mind is that I want his grab to be from the slowest grab in the game to the fastest. The grab lasts one frame, making it ridiculously unpredictable. The grab's range will be buffed to the length of Samus', Zero Suit Samus', Link's and Toon Link's combined. His throwing game should be twice as good. PAC-MAN would be invincible for two seconds after he executes the grab, and still be able to move and attack. He will jump higher, move faster, and do 2% more damage for each attack. During these two seconds, PAC-MAN will be able to hit his opponents 100% of the time, even if they're air dodging, rolling, spot dodging, shielding, or in super armor. this only lasting two seconds. Some more buffs would be to help with getting gimped easily. You should be able to mash out of PAC-MAN's falling state after using a trampoline, but only if the trampoline is gone to avoid infinite recovery. Only PAC-MAN can mash out of the trampoline falling state after the trampoline disappears, and no other opponent who falls from landing on a red can mash out of it. The side B should be increased by two pellets, allowing for easier side B recovery. If PAC-MAN hits a wall with his side B, he should then be able to immediately up B into recovering vertically, instead of being helpless for an entire second. All of PAC-MAN's move should deal 5% more damage than they do now and do 1.5 times more knockback, allowing for more kill moves. I think all of these buffs will easily put PAC-MAN at the very top of the tier list.

 

[ZeoLightning]

I was thinking of making a video of my biggest issues with pac in hopes that maybe it'l reach the devs. mostly about his terrible grab and the floor wall miss

 

[Splebel]

I think I'm the only one here that actually likes Pac-Man's grab.

 

[Nu~]

I think I'm the only one here that actually likes Pac-Man's grab.

I have to ask, why?

 

[ToxoT]

i like pacs grab, but there's too much wrong with it to merit using it over trampoline in most cases

judging from kurogane's data, pac has 3 seperate grabs within the animation, making it pretty unique and lasting longer than any other grab. but it still falls short of others due to its startup and strange location of the hitboxes. it would be nice (if they dont bother to give it more range) to just give it another grab hitbox while the beam is retracting.

 

[verbatim]

I'd honestly be fine if they kept the start/stop time the same and just made the grab work at his glove + while the beam is disappearing. I already use it to punish spot doges (yes it is that slow), it'd at least be nice if it was better in that sense.

 

[Kaiyedy]

One of my biggest problems when I play Pac is that I can get grab happy (I've been getting better about it, though). I've been trying to train myself to do trampoline, but it always looks like the hitbox won't connect, and I always feel I'll get punished for it...

 

[gamecubeguy214]

I think I'm the only one here that actually likes Pac-Man's grab.

PAC-MAN's grab is good. It's just that missing makes you a bit easier to punish.

 

[Splebel]

I have to ask, why?

First off, because it's delayed, It may lose to other grabs but it can throw people off on the timing if done right. Also because it's multiple grabs, I like to combine it with the hydrant gush to cross the stage with it. My favorite is pivot grab towards hydrant, get pushed back, grab confused opponent and then back throw while still moving. +10 style points. It can also be used to control space unlike other grabs (although tethers maybe).

That being said it still has problems, whiffing at point blank, weird range, lousy throw combos, etc. but as for the grab itself, I like it more than I dislike it. His throws leave some thing to be desired but that's a different topic.

PAC-MAN's grab is good. It's just that missing makes you a bit easier to punish.

Grab doing a hydrant gush. It gives Pacman the best grab range in the game. Also it acts as a getaway if you miss.

 

[ZeoLightning]

First off, because it's delayed, It may lose to other grabs but it can throw people off on the timing if done right. Also because it's multiple grabs, I like to combine it with the hydrant gush to cross the stage with it. My favorite is pivot grab towards hydrant, get pushed back, grab confused opponent and then back throw while still moving. +10 style points. It can also be used to control space unlike other grabs (although tethers maybe).

That being said it still has problems, whiffing at point blank, weird range, lousy throw combos, etc. but as for the grab itself, I like it more than I dislike it. His throws leave some thing to be desired but that's a different topic.



Grab doing a hydrant gush. It gives Pacman the best grab range in the game. Also it acts as a getaway if you miss.

in my experience its never thrown off anyone who understands the character even alittle or has good reaction, and playing competitively its a very unsafe option especially since it can be easily avoided because of the delay. getting a boost from the hydrant helps, but the entire animation doesn't have a grab box so if it mistimed or misplaced your practically handing yourself to them on a silver platter. controlling space is for other characters is usually dependent, some characters dont really need to since they always wanna be in your face, other have disjointed attacks and better range. pac has a plathora of ways to control space grab is just a very unsafe one, but good for mixups.

Its not like the grab is unlikable, but it has less advantages then advantages in the current meta. the problems you mentioned and more. less rewards. however i dont think its not a good option, just extremely risky for very little rewards. and its very telegraphed from the delay.

i've tried getting pushed while using the grab, like i said the whole grab animation doesnt have a grab box so it may extend his range abit, (probably still making it the best int he game depending) its not a very viable option

 

[Splebel]

in my experience its never thrown off anyone who understands the character even alittle or has good reaction, and playing competitively its a very unsafe option especially since it can be easily avoided because of the delay. getting a boost from the hydrant helps, but the entire animation doesn't have a grab box so if it mistimed or misplaced your practically handing yourself to them on a silver platter. controlling space is for other characters is usually dependent, some characters dont really need to since they always wanna be in your face, other have disjointed attacks and better range. pac has a plathora of ways to control space grab is just a very unsafe one, but good for mixups.

Its not like the grab is unlikable, but it has less advantages then advantages in the current meta. the problems you mentioned and more. less rewards. however i dont think its not a good option, just extremely risky for very little rewards. and its very telegraphed from the delay.

i've tried getting pushed while using the grab, like i said the whole grab animation doesnt have a grab box so it may extend his range abit, (probably still making it the best int he game depending) its not a very viable option

I never said that it's good to spam or useful in every match up. However I find it good for mixups and reads. In some cases punishes but the move needs to be laggy enough.

 

[BSP]

While I don't agree with all of the buffs xzx said, I do think he has the right idea. Pac-Man is a mid tier right now who gets better results than he should because people still fall for his gimmicks. Right now, people still feel the need to smack hydrant for some reason and still don't pay attention to Bonus Fruit sound cues. Everything becomes 100 times harder once your opponent is smart enough to ignore hydrant completely, pay attention to what Fruit you have stocked, and shield at high % because you can't KO him for doing so.

TBH once people know Pac-Man as well as we do, he'll struggle because his main tools are so easily turned against him. Not having a proper response to a universal defensive option is also a big problem. Our trampoline is alright, but it's not nearly enough. As it stands, he is an overbalanced character that thrives on MU inexperience.

Also grab is bad, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Speed and safety are the two biggest factors at high level play, and ours has neither. Again, it doesn't beat spotdodge unless the opponent spotdodges outside of the point blank grab range and before the beam starts going at them. People who know the MU will take it a step further and roll backwards, which we have no answer to outside of Key, or roll forward behind you after reacting to your grab (very possible since the grab box after the F12 is F22, slower than a SMASH ATTACK). Enjoy getting smash attacked.

Once again I have an example of how familiarity with Pac-Man changes everything. First it was Brawlman with Sonic, and now it's Jonathan with Villager. When we first started out, I would win our matches pretty consistently. Now, it's a pure tossup of who's going to win. He knows my ledge setups, so he either waits them out or disrupts my setup (that's a villager thing though). He realizes that every hydrant I throw out is a free 17% projectile for him that KOs under 100%. Villager is probably just a bad MU for us at top level, but it's frustrating when you can't use your moveset without fear of it being turned on you.

 

[dragontamer]

Also grab is bad, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

very possible since the grab box after the F12 is F22, slower than a SMASH ATTACK). Enjoy getting smash attacked.

Every grab box after the first one is unreliable as all heck anyway. There is a significant amount of space between the first and second hitbox. I'm sure people have run up to grab a foe who is just charging a smash-attack... only to have the foe perfectly positioned in the "blindspot". :-(

Then the foe charges the smash attack all the way and KOs you at like 50%.

 

[Goggalor]

As far as dream buffs go..

-Less endlag at the end of the side-B.
-This would make our recovery even safer. I've been caught at times where I'll side-b towards the ledge, but come just short and get smacked during the lag. Lowering it would just help with acting out of it so much better.

-Less start up on D-Smash.

-Either make the entire grab animation a grab box and speed it up, or make our back throw a solid kill throw.
-I've mostly come to terms with Pacs grab. I'll still get frustrated whenever I do throw it out and doesn't grab when it OBVIOUSLY should, but the risk vs reward factor just isn't there. I'll usually just go for the grab and back throw as a mixup at high percents for a clutch kill, but I'd still like for it to still be reliable.

-A spike.
-This one is probably the most hopeful one that I highly doubt would ever happen due to how safe a Pac spike would be. Having a spike box on his dair, similar to Lucas would be nice.

 

[xzx]

Sorry for the late reply, but I will reply to all of you who replied to me.

Furret24 : My changes will not make PAC-MAN a powerhouse. Remember that Peach's dash attack is a KO move while most of PAC-MAN's moves aren't (Bair, for instance). And about the thing that "PAC-MAN has it easy [killing] compared to Duck Hunt Duo and Mr. Game & Watch" isn't necessarily right, but it could be true anyway. Not that the subject is about that. Robin mains tend to complain about their grab all the time, should I go over to them and show them PAC-MAN's grab? They can complain how much they want, even though our grab is worse. It is fine if they believe their grab is bad.

Nu~ : Well, everything isn't just theoretically. I would not say I am just sitting back and hoping for buffs that will never come. Since when is that on par with addressing a character's weaknesses? "You honestly need a character change or a different frame of mind because that list is insanity. You are asking for another character. An overpowered one at that" Care to explain more? Can you list at least five things (or rather, half the list, even though you meant the whole list) that would make PAC-MAN another character and an overpowered at that? Please explain you reasoning as well. Because I wanna know how.

K Kaiyedy : "-Did you say that the bell should stun when it's z-dropped? That would be the most broken thing in the game..." Read again. "-How/why would making the last hit on Pac's up b kill be useful in any way? You couldn't use in on the stage, even when someone is trying to land because you'd be in special fall. That's punish city." Why the heck not? Why are people so against minor things like this? (Please note that I am referring to the third jump/bounce, not the "fourth" one, the one that will put you in helpless.) But well, since you asked, I can explain: In some situations (like teams, for example) you escape a grab with the trampoline but the opposing character also lands on the trampoline, making it red almost immediately. I have never killed with it, not even high up on the stage or at 150% (<--opponents damage)... So yeah, why not? "-Wouldn't your proposition for f-throw just be another down throw?" Uhh, not really. D-throw sends along the ground (kinda) and f-throw is like in front of you but a bit far away. I'm not suggesting that f-throw should be another d-throw, but rather more close to the ground after the throw, so the opponent can choose whether to land on the ground or jump. (The current f-throw is higher up.) This could lead to some 50/50 situations. "-The power pellet is already powerful, it doesn't really need a buff..." You think so? Well, I think not. It isn't as strong as it should be. It takes long time to execute, can be interrupted AND is hard to hit with unless Bell setup at high %s. I want it to KO at around 100% (not like 120%-130%), which is reasonable for a move like that. And it also does too little damage. What a joke/shame...

"Second, don't complain about how bad a character is, especially if that character is your main. If you think Pac is bad and that the only reason people are losing against him then do one of these things: Look up Abadongo; Get another main; or GET GOOD SON." Why shouldn't I complain? Someone has to address his weaknesses. If nobody would ever complain, then that would mean the character is fine, which is definitely not PAC-MAN's case. Yes, I think PAC-MAN is underwhelming COMPARED TO other characters. Some tricks he has will not simply work in the future, like spamming trampoline for example, as some of you really like to put emphasis on. Sheik's bouncing fish, Diddy Kong's monkey flip, Zero Suit Samus's flip kick, imagine the salt of Luigi's misfire etc. But I digress. 1) I have looked up Abadango, but it's a bit disrespectful to say that his success is the cause of PAC-MAN and not on his skills (I believe his success lies in his skills and not entirely on the character). Would you claim that Mii Gunner is not an out-right terrible character if a Mii Gunner main won a notable tournament? 2) I will not get another main, as I main the one that matches my playing style the most and the one I have the most fun with. 3) A classical dumb argument. Why do people wrongly associate with someone being bad just because they think one's character is not viable? I don't know how good I am, but for my references, I placed ninth place at B.E.A.S.T. V (took place at the beginning of this year), Europe's biggest Smash tournament, and this was in the Hoo-Hah era. Now, while I believe I didn't played very well to be honest, like I didn't played optimally and as such, I still think I am pretty decent with PAC-MAN. I am much better now than I was back then. And oh, when I said "Sheik's fair being used against her", I meant it in a way that would shed light on PAC-MAN's Bonus Fruit being used against him.

ZeoLightning : I don't think these changed would make PAC-MAN OP in any way. He needs power buffs. His bair and d-smash are too weak, for example. But alright, it's just opinions.

BSP : THANK YOU!

 

[Furret24]

My changes will not make PAC-MAN a powerhouse. Remember that Peach's dash attack is a KO move while most of PAC-MAN's moves aren't (Bair, for instance). And about the thing that "PAC-MAN has it easy [killing] compared to Duck Hunt Duo and Mr. Game & Watch" isn't necessarily right, but it could be true anyway. Not that the subject is about that. Robin mains tend to complain about their grab all the time, should I go over to them and show them PAC-MAN's grab? They can complain how much they want, even though our grab is worse. It is fine if they believe their grab is bad.

Do you have any examples besides Peach? Pac-Man has a decent amount of KO options (Several Fruits, Smashes, Nair, Uair, and Back Throw to name a few).

Duck Hunt and G&W can't kill to save their lives (other mains of them agree on this). Pac-Man may take a while, but atleast his KO options are reliable.

Atleast our grab has range and a psuedo-lingering hitbox. Robin and Mewtwo's grabs don't work half the time and G&W's grab range is hilariously bad. Our grab may not be good, but it atleast has some perks to it.

 

[xzx]

Do you have any examples besides Peach? Pac-Man has a decent amount of KO options (Several Fruits, Smashes, Nair, Uair, and Back Throw to name a few).

Duck Hunt and G&W can't kill to save their lives (other mains of them agree on this). Pac-Man may take a while, but atleast his KO options are reliable.

Atleast our grab has range and a psuedo-lingering hitbox. Robin and Mewtwo's grabs don't work half the time and G&W's grab range is hilariously bad. Our grab may not be good, but it atleast has some perks to it.

Yes I have: Yoshi's bair. Diddy Kong's up-tilt. Sheik's f-smash. Sonic's f-throw. Luma's up-tilt. Roy's dash attack.

Yeah, of course PAC-MAN has KO options, but he needs to land them reliably. All can be lacking in some way. Some aren't strong enough. Some are situational-heavy. Others are just plain bad... His d-smash is too weak, nair isn't really a killing move, unless it's rage and near a blast zone. I'm pretty surprised you mentioned up-air. What makes you think it is a KO move? In order for it too kill, the opponent needs to be damaged over 150% and be hit way up. Though even if the back hit of up-air is surprisingly strong, you have to position yourself to hit with it. B-throw is only a killing move if PAC-MAN is at rage and near the ledge. It's too situational. And sometimes, when you finally land a KO option, it will not score the KO.

I am not deeply into G&W and DHD, so I can't really compare to them. Of course they struggle with maybe similar things PAC-MAN does, but at least they have a tool in grab in a heavily defensive game, with shields being way too overpowered. PAC-MAN hates rage (I know G&W does too), and that is why I think PAC-MAN loses to Bowser, for example. His tools is not enough to deal with rage, and he can't abuse it either. This even further his KO problems. PAC-MAN is weak, and his strongest moves/options are too situational as well. His Bonus Fruit are legit, but as I have said, they can used against him. And anyone who knows the PAC-MAN matchup can anticipate when he will use them. So I wouldn't really say his KO options are THAT reliable, even though he have them.

PAC-MAN's grab is the worst grab in the whole series and no one can convince me otherwise. I would much rather have Brawl Ganondorf's grab (!!!) than that of an utterly garbage one that PAC-MAN has. I commend you for thinking positively about that lackluster grab, but really, you are just fooling yourself if you think that it has some sort of merit to it no other grab have. You can't simply argue against data. (Once, a Captain Falcon has dash grabbed me while I grabbed, with the beam animation only reaching halfway.)

I still stand by my points. PAC-MAN needs buffs, and not only fixes.