DI/Momentum Cancel **** once and for all

[Lord Chair]

With all credit going to Grizzer because he did all the testing (my wiimote was broken, get@me).

Diddy dsmash, fresh, middle of FD:

FF dair > jump: Wario lives until 182%
Airdodge > bike: Wario lives until 174%
FF fair > jump: Wario lives until 175%
Airdodge > jump: Wario dies way earlier, something like 170%
Fair > jump: About as worthless as airdodge > jump, just not nearly so.

Diddy's dsmash was chosen because it's retardedly easy to DI, and it kills late enough to see a difference between airdodge/aerial/bike.

Bottom line is, airdodge > bike is superior over long distances, but I'd say those kind of distances aren't really common. Fastfalling a dair or fair usually has the best effect, especially over shorter distances.

Airdodging only seems to have a real purpose if you're going to Bike, because you'll make use of the momentum cancelling effect of the Bike earlier. In shorter timespans, the immediate influence fastfalling has on your survival is more profitable and the long term effect of the Bike (simply because that long term effect won't come into effect).

BLABLABLA airdodging gets you out of hitstun earlier: that is true, but the effect of fastfalling tends to be preferable quite often. One shouldn't necessarily think of airdodge>biking too often unless it is CLEAR that the momentum cancelling effect of the Bike has enough time to kick in, this usually happens when hit across the stage.

Conclusion: there's no way of momentum cancelling which is ALWAYS superior. Usually FF dair/fair (you should (imo) use dair since flicking the c-stick downwards is kinda like the easiest thing in the world) does the job of surviving the best, and sometimes you'll just have to think (yes: think) about whether or not Biking will have a positive influence on the whole ordeal.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Despite this I think people will still DI however, the hell they went to. Hell I provided a lot of info on the matter including videos but no one listened. *sigh*

 

[Lord Chair]

Frankly, pretty much everyone does it well. 'S just that there's people complaining about airdodge being superior and all that. It isn't, 90% of the time.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Frankly, pretty much everyone does it well. 'S just that there's people complaining about airdodge being superior and all that. It isn't, 90% of the time.

Yeah I agree with this I also disagree with bike breaking being legit to use.

 

[Lord Chair]

I figure you've spend hours testing it and made the educated conclusion that it really doesn't work.

'S not even a matter of opinion.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I figure you've spend hours testing it and made the educated conclusion that it really doesn't work.

'S not even a matter of opinion.

When I first heard of it I did. Then when I kept getting sucked into the blast zones I was like this is bogus. It's nothing like DK's up or G&W's bucket. He'll even sometimes with pika I'd get sucked into the blast zones. There's also a really good video on DI let me see if I can find it.

Here's the vid i was talking bout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njcYW0rFmUg

 

[toobusytocare]

you were momentum cancelling wrong <_<

you dont fast fall the aerial unless you are being sent up

ugh i dont even care anymore

You guys can DI/Momentum cancel however you want

also if you airdodge you have to jump then FF after or else you did nothing and might as well have just left yourself in hitstun

 

[Lord Chair]

Truth of the matter is, without fastfalling Wario'd die earlier. Not from the top, from the sides. Apparently FFing does somehow make sense, which is only obvious since even though you're not sent straight up, you're flying upwards regardless.

Point of this thread is that it's raw testing data which cannot really be unvalidated unless you come with proof yourself. Test it, get your lazy *** off that chair and look at what happens when you apply your 'superior' way of momentum cancelling, and compare it to ALL OTHER PROPOSED WAYS in DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.

Unless you've done just that and somehow our test results differ anyway, I don't think you have the right to not read my post (I explicitly stated that I also tried NOT fastfalling) and bash my results anyway.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

FFing has absolutely no effect on horizontal momentum

wrong. FF slows your momentum.

 

[Lord Chair]

Annoying thing is, people will stick to their own beliefs rather than believing in solid testing.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Lord Chair]

If you feel addressed, I probably am.

I see what AL means with people not listening. Do I really have to record my testing in order to have credibility? Fair enough, will take a while though :/

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Lord Chair]

Do elaborate.

Please refrain from slowchatting. Instead, try to elaborate every statement you make. Makes life simpler.

 

[toobusytocare]

FFing has no effect on horizontal momentum, just vertical, so it makes your trajectory lower and therefore the distance between you and the blastzone is decreased, which is why you jump to try and compensate for that

unless you're going mostly up and would die of the top, then just FF an aerial because you can't fast fall during airdodge

 

[Grizzer]

FFing has no effect on horizontal momentum, just vertical, so it makes your trajectory lower and therefore the distance between you and the blastzone is decreased, which is why you jump to try and compensate for that

unless you're going mostly up and would die of the top, then just FF an aerial because you can't fast fall during airdodge

if smash physics have anything to do with reallife physics, then reducing the vertical component from the speedvector will reduce the overall distance you travel, just picture yourself a triangle like this:

./|
/ |
---

the diagonal line is the direction you are knocked into, which consists of a combination of a vertical and a horizontal component. reducing the vertical component(fastfalling) will reduce the size of the diagonal one as well (i wont explain that one since i'd feel stupid explaining something that easy)

so yes, it lowers your trajectory a little, but it also decreases the speed at which you get smashed

the other way around, if you get (semi) spiked, fastfalling will actually increase the size of the vertical component so you will die faster, which is only logical XD

i have tested that when i got knocked out the sides just barely, while DI'ing only with fair i actually survived if i fastfalled it, so its usefull overall and not only when getting knocked upwards

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Grizzer]

1. You tested from "the middle of FD"... that's very imprecise and probably introduced some error

2. You only tested which form of DI is best against attacks that send Wario the same angle/knockback that Diddy's dsmash does.



What I say is not based on my beliefs, it's based on the testing I've done. I'll make a video when I have some free time, hopefully either this weekend or next weekend, since frankly these topics/discussions are getting stupid and it's embarrassing that so many people don't know how DI works.

the middle being when you drop down from spawning? which is as accurate as it gets
I DI'ed the dsmash straight up every single time which brought me to the diagonal blastzones
the whole point was figuring out which form of momentum cancelling techniques brought the best results, wether you get hit by mk's dsmash or diddies doesnt matter at all

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Grizzer]

Yes, actually it does mater. Depending on the angle and speed, sometimes no momentum cancel is best, sometimes it's better to FF then DJ, sometimes it's better to not FF then DJ. The distinction becomes more obvious/important at higher percentages where you can potentially kill yourself by FFing or DJing

i noted the fact that i died by jumping sometimes and then ofcourse tried it without jumping, jumping later, whatever, i tried different things

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969

 

[Lord Chair]

That thread is about DI. We're talking about momentum cancelling.

With regards to jumping: If you aren't already launched towards the corners, the height boost jumping gives you is enough to compensate for the boost away from the stage. This makes jumping in the tested situation null, since Wario was already flying towards the corner. The closer to the blastzone you jump, the worse the effect of the jump is.

Admittedly, the testing wasn't COMPLETE, but it wasn't flawed either. The whole point is to address the different sorts of DI available and explaining how each one of them works, since the general consensus usually seems to be leaning towards 'there's only 1 way to momentum cancel and thats X'.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That thread is about DI. We're talking about momentum cancelling.

With regards to jumping: If you aren't already launched towards the corners, the height boost jumping gives you is enough to compensate for the boost away from the stage. This makes jumping in the tested situation null, since Wario was already flying towards the corner. The closer to the blastzone you jump, the worse the effect of the jump is.

Admittedly, the testing wasn't COMPLETE, but it wasn't flawed either. The whole point is to address the different sorts of DI available and explaining how each one of them works, since the general consensus usually seems to be leaning towards 'there's only 1 way to momentum cancel and thats X'.

you clearly didn't read the the whole thread. *shrugs* Actually I think you just read the title of the thread and decided to comment on it.

 

[Lord Chair]

How insightful.

That thread is old and I'm pretty sure bike braking hadn't even come to light. It mostly addresses GENERAL momentum cancelling, but the sole existence of bike braking changes the whole process in and by itself.

 

[jbandrew]

is up air an effective way to momentum cancel? I like to immediately Upair after getting hit @ kill percents and FF on my control stick. Is this effective?

 

[Lord Chair]

No, it's terrible.

 

[Affinity]

How insightful.

That thread is old and I'm pretty sure bike braking hadn't even come to light. It mostly addresses GENERAL momentum cancelling, but the sole existence of bike braking changes the whole process in and by itself.

Isn't Bike Braking a myth?


That's what Bassem told me when I asked him about it.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[LordAizen]

based on the first post Fair is the what you want to use to Momentum break right?

 

[Affinity]

Bike Braking is real. Get mythbusted

Then why do I keep getting sucked into the blast zone when I do it after momentum canceling with D-air?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Then why do I keep getting sucked into the blast zone when I do it after momentum canceling with D-air?

because it's a myth and doesn't work and when you use a special move to close to the blast zone you go closer to the blast zone with the exception of DK's up B and Game & watches down B.

 

[Affinity]

Alright, makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[DMG]

Bike Breaking works, BUT it is most noticeable at much much larger distances. Like say I am at one edge of FD, and get hit going towards the OTHER edge's corner. Bike Breaking that kind of distance will save me better than fast fall/aerial/jumping/etc

Large distances: Bike Breaking Da Bess

Medium or Short distances: Something other than Bike Breaking

 

[toobusytocare]

Don't listen to AL, he is clueless.

There are two reasons why it could be happening:

1. For the purposes of bike braking, Wario's airdodge is unique somehow and is faster for exiting the "hitstun" portion of DI than dair/fair. .

actually every character can airdodge sooner than they can aerial

wario just had less cooldown on his airdodge than a lot of the cast so his airdodge ends sooner than an aerial would

ill edit with the frame data in a bit

EDIT:
explanation-
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=4377

frame data-
http://www.geocities.jp/kuso_dwi_lovers/list.html

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

actually every character can airdodge sooner than they can aerial

wario just had less cooldown on his airdodge than a lot of the cast so his airdodge ends sooner than an aerial would

ill edit with the frame data in a bit

EDIT:
explanation-
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=4377

frame data-
http://www.geocities.jp/kuso_dwi_lovers/list.html

So that's the blog you're we're talking about....how come he didn't explain the video posted by sagemoon?

This video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk

But whatever tired of dispelling this non sense over and over again.

He also said this

### this does NOT apply to auto fast falling moves (i.e. toonlink's down air) ###

Wario's dair auto FF's.....

 

[toobusytocare]

So that's the blog you're we're talking about....how come he didn't explain the video posted by sagemoon?

This video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk

But whatever tired of dispelling this non sense over and over again.

He also said this





Wario's dair auto FF's.....

everyones dair auto fast falls when c sticked

he meant stall then fall type moves like TLs dair, shiek's dair, etc


all that video showed was that when marth is in hitstun his fair ends faster than his airdodge (which matches up to the frame data posted) <_<

serious question though. why do you post here? you dont even play wario competitively

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

everyones dair auto fast falls when c sticked

he meant stall then fall type moves like TLs dair, shiek's dair, etc


all that video showed was that when marth is in hitstun his fair ends faster than his airdodge (which matches up to the frame data posted) <_<

serious question though. why do you post here? you dont even play wario competitively

I've used Wario in tourney before nice try mangz. I've also used him in MM's. So once again you're missing. I don't see the need for you to attack me though. Way to keep it classy *shrugs* It's like a guy can't take a break from tourneys so that he can get his money right.....whatever mangz. Once again if you have a problem with my tourney attendance you can always send me money and have me attend a tourney. Otherwise I'd advise you not to talk about my tourney attendance.

 

[Krystedez]

Just for the record I've been using FF after fair, dair, and accidental u-airs, and it works wonders, I been living to 200 per stock usually, and I sometimes survive long distances even with just FF'd aerials.

Also, I've never been able to bike-break before, but the airdodge->bike-break sounds legitimate compared to aerials, because I die instantly when doing aerials then bike. I'll test it out with my room mates later.