Ulevo
Smash Master
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On F-air (/B-air):Fair:
Overall as a move, Fair is very good. It has fast start up, almost no ending lag, auto cancels, good damage, reasonable knock back, and average range. The words I am going to point out here are "average range". Because of Fairs transcended priority, overall Fair is not a reliably safe move to approach or space with, depending upon the match up of course. Any move longer than Fair is easily able to out prioritize it with proper spacing, thus leaving Meta Knight exposed. Donkey Kongs Bair, Snakes FTilt, Marths Standard A, FTilt, and Fair, Peaches Fair, et cetera... are all examples of attacks that beat this move.
Note: I did not cover Bair, as it is nearly identical to Fair, but with slightly longer range and more lag. It doesn't have as many applications as Fair, and Fair is usually a better move to use.
DTilt:
Another very good move, equal to that in use of FTilt. DTilt has blistering start up time, IASA Frames to end the DTilt into any other move, and it trips the opponent to allow safe follow up combos. Transcended priority on this move is close to irrelevant in most circumstances, simply because the hit box is usually too close to the ground to matter, and it's range is rarely ever beaten when properly spaced. One problem to note though is that Meta Knight leans very far forward during the animation of the attack, which leaves him very exposed during a transition of hits. I have punished Meta Knight players on numerous occasions with Marths DTilt, which is shorter than Meta Knights, by taking advantage of this positioning problem. Another problem associated with DTilt is how low the hit box is when used. Short hop approaches cause a lot of problems here, as it will leave Meta Knight exposed to spaced aerials.
Glide Attack:
Ridiculous range, speed, and power, yet very punishable. This move will clank with virtually everything. There are many characters that are capable of overriding Glide Attack through multi hit aerials, such as Pikachus Fair, Falcos Nair, ZSS Fair, Snakes Nair, Yoshis Bair, Charizards Fair and more. Power Shielding this move as an approach is also quite easy, and even regular shields will suffice at Shield Grabbing Meta Knight into any throw or Grab Release you desire. Really overused, very overhyped, good move when it counts, but very, very exploitable.
Meta Knights Shield Stun:
This is the main reason to space well with Meta Knight, and the reason why it is essential in order to by a good Meta Knight as opposed to "just another Meta Knight". For the majority of Meta Knights moves, his Shield Stun is simply crap. And by that, I mean bad by even Brawl standards. The hit boxes of his moves simply do not produce enough Shield Stun in order for Meta Knight to be safe. Many characters can Shield Grab Meta Knight mid Fair or Bair (Now, you might say argue that if Meta Knight spaces properly, this won't happen, which is false, which I will cover later). Even on Meta Knights stronger attacks, such as Glide Attack or DSmash, there is always enough time to either Shield Grab or drop a shield and punish. Example: If Meta Knight manages to hit Marths shield during a spot dodge war with the second DSmash hit box, even with perfect spacing, Marth has enough time to drop his Shield, and dash in to hit Meta Knight with Dancing Blade before the lag ends.
Not only does this present problems for Meta Knight if his spacing is poor, but it allows for a lot of OoS options even assuming proper spacing. Meta Knights Dair is a good example of this. A player just needs to keep proper reaction and attention, as most players will simply stay in their shield for fear of Meta Knights attacks, rather than smacking Meta Knight with an UTilt or Uair once he's hit your shield prior to another Dair or Tornado.
Dair is another good example of how Shield Stun can be abused. Dair is a very safe move for Meta Knight if spaced because of it's range. But many players will attempt to catch characters in DTilt traps. Most DTilt strings can be jumped out of during the small lag of the DTilt while in a Shield. From there, simply use an aerial.
Touché on aerial speed.Meta Knight and Directional Influence:
Bloody hell. One of my current pet peeves is the new trend of saying how "Meta Knight gimps x character". Dair is about the only move in Meta Knights arsenal that should be gimping you if you're playing any character with adequate recovery. Directional Influence against Meta Knight is a big hinderance to him, as a lot of characters are heavier than he is, and will out last him with proper DI. It also prevents him from getting early gimps on you, and makes Shuttle Loop much less effective if he lands one on you in the air. By using proper DI, you also avoid Meta Knights edge guarding game, which is by far the best in the game.
Meta Knight's Mobility:
This ties in with Meta Knights difficulty with dealing with projectiles, as well as his weakness to shields. Simply put, Meta Knights aerial mobility is garbage. On top of having simply average range in aerial attacks, he is unable to effectively weave his hit box or hurt box out of another characters range. This constitutes multiple problems:
• Meta Knight cannot retreat from Shield Grabs or OoS options very well from aerials
• Meta Knights aerial attack range is reduced significantly compared to that of other characters
• Meta Knight has difficulty maneuvering around projectiles due to his lack of mobility
• Meta Knight is forced to either Glide, Run, or Walk in many circumstances
If a Meta Knight Fairs a shield, he is caught. It's that simply. Even with spacing, he cannot retreat effectively because his mobility moves him no where. This is especially bad with characters that have long grab reach like King Dedede, or other tether grabs. Often times what I will do with Marth is wait to hear the three *tink* sounds on my shield, drop it, and retaliate with whatever I see fit.
Meta Knights range is also reduced because of this. Normally, Marths Fair barely beats Meta Knights. However, since Meta Knight moves hit hurt box inwards, and has transcended priority during his aerials, he is exposed more than normally. In this circumstance, unlike Marth, he cannot move inward for an attack, or retreat while attacking, in order to abuse this. Characters such as Peach will walk all over you for this sort of a fault.
One funny example I love to hear is the Falco vs Meta Knight match up. Many people refer to Meta Knight as "Marth with Wings". They automatically assume that because Marth does well against Falco, Meta Knight is even better. The difference is that Marth can actually by pass the projectiles without getting punished for it to a major extent at least reasonably well. Meta Knight cannot do this. This makes coping with projectiles rather hard, and brings me to my next point...
Defensively, SL might be MK's best move.Shuttle Loop is Meta-Knight's best move. Mach Whornado is just annoying.
Not really lol.And now, with their weaknesses overly-exposed, the Meta Knights will improve, trying as hard as possible to cover up any misteaks that could be seen from Ulevo's post-analysis of the matchup. Now MKs will be even harder to take out...
Way to go, jerk.
No problemo.And now, with their weaknesses overly-exposed, the Meta Knights will improve, trying as hard as possible to cover up any misteaks that could be seen from Ulevo's post-analysis of the matchup. Now MKs will be even harder to take out...
Way to go, jerk.
You can't just start a thread insisting that Meta Knight is weaker than people think he is and forbid anyone from disagreeing with you because "this is not a debate topic". Can i start a thread and say that Captain Falcon is a better character than Lucario, explain reasons why, and forbid discussion or disagreement because it's "not a debate topic"? If I successfully abuse the power of the mods the way you intend to, i guess so.The point of this thread is to effectively high light the weaknesses associated with Meta Knight statistically as a character, and to provide generalized advice and methods on how to exploit those weaknesses, to both a broad and specific degree. This is not a debating topic, nor will I allow it to be. If you feel the need to contribute, or correct, please feel free to do so constructively and with provided reason. If you insist on making comments that obstruct the the goal of this thread in an ignorant fashion, I will not hesitate to report you. This topic is meant to be productive, and I will not tolerate "lol mk has no weaknez".
tldr; If you put a gag rule on something, you can't put a gag rule on only one side of a debate, that's unfair. Gag rules can only go both ways Ulevo.As of lately, I've been picking up very noticeable problems associated with Meta Knight as a character, especially at tournaments. When the topic of Meta Knights ban became a large concern, I disregarded the idea of Meta Knight having a large Achilles heel given that his similarity to Marth would indicate he is a very covered character, match up wise, even if no match up ratios are largely agreed upon for Meta Knight. I instead chose to argue the the facts on why Meta Knights dominance wasn't enough to warrant a ban, among other reasons. I now am starting to realize Meta Knight simply is not as good as everyone likes to claim, despite him clearly being a Top Tier character.
By debate, I think he means "BAN METAKNIGHT! OMG UR WRONG THIS THREAD DOENST cHENGE NE THING MK IS OP HE SHUD STIL BE BANND LOL NO MATR WUT! LOL"You can't just start a thread insisting that Meta Knight is weaker than people think he is and forbid anyone from disagreeing with you because "this is not a debate topic". Can i start a thread and say that Captain Falcon is a better character than Lucario, explain reasons why, and forbid discussion or disagreement because it's "not a debate topic"? If I successfully abuse the power of the mods the way you intend to, i guess so.
If you wanted to limit this thread to which parts of Meta Knight are his weaknesses, and exclude whether he as a whole is a good or bad character from them, you could have. But you violated that yourself here:
tldr; If you put a gag rule on something, you can't put a gag rule on only one side of a debate, that's unfair. Gag rules can only go both ways Ulevo.
I don't think shielding glide attack has ever been a good idea.one thing to note, glide attack. If you put up your shield, a smart metaknight will jumpcancel the glide and then grab you. Any character that does not have an up b out of shield is vulnerable to a glide approach. Best way to avoid this is to run towards and under meta, or get the preemptive strike in the air.
Um... Marths Fair comes out on Frame 4, and is longer than Meta Knights Fair. Meta Knights Fair comes out on Frame 3. Meta Knight also has garbage for aerial mobility, so he can move in and out of a characters range pretty much at all. Not only does this mean Marth can slip in for a hit, but multiple character can as well. You really don't know what you're talking about.There is no move that is both faster than MK's Fair and has better range. All moves with longer range have enough lag that MK can severely punish you. All characters with faster attacks than Fair don't have enough range to slip in and hit MK.
No I totally agree with ^^^, I just meant SL is hard to see before hand, but fairly telegraphed after wards. I thought you were suggesting it was easy to spot like Falcon Punch (Obviously not THAT telegraphed, but you know what I mean.)As for Shuttle Loop being better than Tornado, I originally believed so too. The thing is, Shuttle Loop is too one dimensional, and very easy to telegraph and to punish once executed. Tornado is very useful against a lot of match ups Meta Knight otherwise would have difficulty dealing with, and is very low risk high reward when used properly, unlike Shuttle Loop.
Actually, I was forbidding this topic from becoming a discussion on banning Meta Knight. I'm perfectly fine with members disagreeing with me provided they can contribute to the discussion and state reasons as to what it is they claim.You can't just start a thread insisting that Meta Knight is weaker than people think he is and forbid anyone from disagreeing with you because "this is not a debate topic". Can i start a thread and say that Captain Falcon is a better character than Lucario, explain reasons why, and forbid discussion or disagreement because it's "not a debate topic"? If I successfully abuse the power of the mods the way you intend to, i guess so.
If you wanted to limit this thread to which parts of Meta Knight are his weaknesses, and exclude whether he as a whole is a good or bad character from them, you could have. But you violated that yourself here:
tldr; If you put a gag rule on something, you can't put a gag rule on only one side of a debate, that's unfair. Gag rules can only go both ways Ulevo.
Like Peach's Dair eh?I find fair rather useless. You can SDI out of it and punish it quite easily....
Then again I find all multi hit moves useless.
It doesn't matter if they cancel the Glide, you'll grab them anyway. Just put up the shield. If they attack, grab. If they land, grab. Done.one thing to note, glide attack. If you put up your shield, a smart metaknight will jumpcancel the glide and then grab you. Any character that does not have an up b out of shield is vulnerable to a glide approach. Best way to avoid this is to run towards and under meta, or get the preemptive strike in the air.
Yes, I know what you mean.No I totally agree with ^^^, I just meant SL is hard to see before hand, but fairly telegraphed after wards. I thought you were suggesting it was easy to spot like Falcon Punch (Obviously not THAT telegraphed, but you know what I mean.)
I'd love to see where you are getting these Frame rates from.Sorry, but you're wrong. Unless you have some amazing reaction time or anticipation ability. If the metaknight decides to jumpcancel the attack into a grab, that leaves probably around 5 frames to realize the jump cancel to hit grab (and the grab itself takes around 2-5 frames depending on the character to come out), by the time your reactions take place, meta will aready be grabbing thus getting it off first. If you just try to grab while metaknight is in range, then you're most likely going to be hit by the glide attack because you grabbed, lowering the shield.
In short. You have to hit the grab button earlier if metaknight decides to jump cancel. And only the metaknight player can anticipate what hes going to do 100% of the time.
3 frames is faster than 4, so the statement "Both faster *and* longer range" holds true -- Marth's is slower, if only by a tiny amount.Um... Marths Fair comes out on Frame 4, and is longer than Meta Knights Fair. Meta Knights Fair comes out on Frame 3.
I never argued Meta Knights Fair wasn't faster. I pointed out the miniscule difference between the two. The bottom line is Marths Fair wins. You're picking at straws here, I'm not sure what your intentions are.3 frames is faster than 4, so the statement "Both faster *and* longer range" holds true -- Marth's is slower, if only by a tiny amount.
5 frames sounds like enough time for me toI'd love to see where you are getting these Frame rates from.
You're not accounting for the time it takes Meta Knight to land, or the spacing between the two characters. If Meta Knight spaces Glide Attack, he is grabbed. If he cancels Glide, he needs to be close enough in order to grab, meanwhile the opponent can just grab out of their shield. If they cancel the glide too far away, it's irrelevant anyway. All my character has to do against a Meta Knight is grab, meanwhile Meta Knight has to cancel the glide, land, and then grab. What you're saying makes no sense at all.
I'm not playing Theory Bros Brawl. This is fact.
You mean ground to air right? Even then, DI away then airdodge down/back and buffer shield or step back. Marth's counter isn't that good, so that's an odd thing to compare it to.Shuttle Loop is one of his best moves on the ground. Invincibility frames ftl, he can use that almost like Marth's counter.
He waits for you to airdodge, then whacks you with SL. If you don't airdodge, then you eat an Uair or another aerial of his. Win-Win situation for MK. Now if you are talking about after he uses the move how it is easily telegraphed, then yes it's pretty easy to see he has a limited path to take. If you are talking about how easy it is to predict the move before he uses it however, then I disagree.
If you weren't disagreeing with the statement, you should have clarified. Your tone came across as complete disagreement, and I was pointing out the statement was in fact true.I never argued Meta Knights Fair wasn't faster. I pointed out the miniscule difference between the two. The bottom line is Marths Fair wins. You're picking at straws here, I'm not sure what you're intentions are.
Tone? Welcome to the internet.If you weren't disagreeing with the statement, you should have clarified. Your tone came across as complete disagreement, and I was pointing out the statement was in fact true.
I plan to.Oh yeah, you've totally got the edge on Meta Knight now! Go stick it to 'em!
Unless Marth Fairs as MK's Fair ends, Marth will be hit and fail his attack. Marth's range over MK's Fair is so minimal that it's near-useless. You failed to account the fact that MK and Marth will be moving during their attacks. Marth will just fly straight into the second or third hits of MK's Fair.Tone? Welcome to the internet.
And you only decided to assumed I disagreed with the first sentence in his post. You didn't pay attention to anything else. I was disagreeing with his over all statement, which implied that no character can slip in to Meta Knights range, which is false.
Nice try covering your *** though.
No. Marth has longer reach. That 1 Frame difference is minimal, and does not effect this. You have no clue what you're talking about.Unless Marth Fairs as MK's Fair ends, Marth will be hit and fail his attack.
No, it's not. Again you have no idea what you're talking about. I could tell you from attack to attack, what out ranges what, and by how much, between Meta Knight and Marth. I know exactly which attack overrides which, and by how much.Marth's range over MK's Fair is so minimal that it's near-useless.
Uh, this is half the reason why Meta Knights Fair won't work. Marth has free reign to position himself during any point in time, while Meta Knight cannot.You failed to account the fact that MK and Marth will be moving during their attacks. Marth will just fly straight into the second or third hits of MK's Fair.
Hi.And let's assume that someone could be accurate enough with Marth's Fair,
That "excellent" attack you mentioned likely has slower start up. It also lags a hell of a lot more. If you want to play "best scenario", I'll just say I'm using Bair and be done with this argument.MK has this excellent attack called "Bair" which outranges Marth's Fair.
Where do people come up with this stuff?What about MK's ability to live as long or even longer then Bowser from getting knocked back if they know how? Uair to jump cancels any momentum from any attack, and you can do it in under 3 frames I believe, so if MK can get 3 frames of areal control, he can't die.
That tends to be the problem whenever people argue how well Marth can get around MK...Great Ulevo. Now all you have to do is rank better than top MK players and Marth will reign supreme!
no u.What about MK's ability to live as long or even longer then Bowser from getting knocked back if they know how? Uair to jump cancels any momentum from any attack, and you can do it in under 3 frames I believe, so if MK can get 3 frames of areal control, he can't die.
I like this guy.Great Ulevo. Now all you have to do is rank better than top MK players and Marth will reign supreme!
The main problem with Meta Knight for Marth is that Meta Knight can recover each time he's sent off stage, and Marth can only edge guard him, meanwhile Marth can be gimped if he doesn't pay attention. That, and Marth's KO options are not a reliable. Other than that, the match up is fine.That tends to be the problem whenever people argue how well Marth can get around MK...