Dawn of a New Day: Vectoring (Mostly) Removed in Patch 1.0.4

[Thinkaman]

Patches! Crazy, huh. We got nerfs to the suspected top tiers, buffs to the suspected low tiers, and lots of bugs fixed. A great time for everyone.

Oh, and vectoring was removed.

DATA

Me and @ Big O tested this independently. I first tested the damage required to kill Mario with Gooey Bombs from the center of FD:

1.0.4 No Input: 45%
1.0.4 Holding Down After Hit: 47%
1.0.4 Holding Down Before Hit: 70%

1.0.3 No Input: 45%
1.0.3 Holding Down After Hit: 58%
1.0.3 Holding Down Before Hit: 84%

Then I tested the superior vertical hit of Mute City's track, which is strictly vertical and shouldn't be affected by crouch canceling:

1.0.4 No Input: 104%
1.0.4 Holding Down After Hit: 104%
1.0.4 Holding Down Before Hit: 104%
1.0.4 Holding Right: 107%

1.0.3 No Input: 104%
1.0.3 Holding Down After Hit: 134%
1.0.3 Holding Down Before Hit: 134%
1.0.3 Holding Right: 107%

Big O's data was as follows:

Tested on BF with DK facing right and Blast Box on right

Both Patches

60% No Input = Barely lives
61% No Input = KO

Pre-Patch

77% Holding down/left = Barely lives
46% Holding up/right = KO

Post-Patch

64% Holding down/left = Barely lives
58% Holding up/right = KO

IMPLICATIONS

Well, the big obvious one is you cannot live longer vertically by holding down. Kills should be sooner, especially vertically, and games should be shorter.


The second change is that certain moves may combo or follow-up better against humans, specifically predominantly vertical throws like Mario d-throw throw.

This is obviously a super broad subject that will ultimately take several thousand games to explore the full ramifications of, across the game's 1200+ matchups. There will likely be a lot of placebo effect, but it doesn't really matter; the game in front of us is the one we have now.

To be clear, it is moves where people could escape by holding up (not just SDI) that will be harder to escape.


Edit:
To be clear, as evidenced by the data, traditional angular DI is still in the game.


Thoughts?

 

[Jaxas]

VI is dead, DI returns

Interesting, the only potential problem I foresee with this is the One-Inch-Punch tech; wasn't vectoring the only way to escape it?
Anyways, nice work figuring this out!

 

[Thinkaman]

Interesting, the only potential problem I foresee with this is the One-Inch-Punch tech; wasn't vectoring the only way to escape it?
Anyways, nice work figuring this out!

Yeah, that's how I tested that rage was still in, and I realized how awful it is now...

 

[Exor]

this is crazy

 

[Antonykun]

i guess this means i can get away with down throw upair with more consitently

 

[Big O]

Is the angle you get from DI'ing sideways enough to survive the 1 inch punch?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

All of this makes me wonder if Vectoring and Vectoring were glitches.

Thoughts?

 

[Thinkaman]

Is the angle you get from DI'ing sideways enough to survive the 1 inch punch?

As who? In what context?

Ceiling height, jump position, target weight, and rage all influence it.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

All of this makes me wonder if Vectoring and Vectoring were glitches.

Thoughts?

Maybe. Not sure why they would remove it if it was intended.

 

[Big O]

Let's say you are Mario on FD and get hit by the throw setup for it (Mii Brawler being at 100%). Do you live by DI'ing sideways?

 

[Luigi player]

This is the worst change ever. Skillgap got lessened so much. Now everyone is the same.

 

[Locuan]

Great post Thinkaman. I look forward to how the game evolves from this.

 

[Empyrean]

Certainly a welcome change in my book. Now it'll be much easier for people to switch between smash games without having to adjust for the nonsense that was vectoring.

Oh, and no more horribly useless VI/DI naming debates. That stuff hurt my brain

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Wait time out.
This means Upperdash arm, KO punch, and Rest are essentially buffed? Given their trajectory?

 

[NinjaLink]

We just tested this with 2 players and vectoring seems to still be in. The effects may have possibly be weaker but holding towards and away definitely has its differences.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait time out.
This means Upperdash arm, KO punch, and Rest are essentially buffed? Given their trajectory?

All vertical kill moves that were penalized by vectoring now are not.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Have you tested to see if momentum canceling has returned?

 

[Antonykun]

Now that i think about it most combo based characters got a buffed right?

 

[san.]

We just tested this with 2 players and vectoring seems to still be in. The effects may have possibly be weaker but holding towards and away definitely has its differences.

I honestly hope this is the case. I like the intuitiveness of VI but felt it was a bit too strong.

 

[Asdioh]

So can you explain how crouch canceling works in smash4? I didn't realize it was in until today ._.?
Does it work at all like Melee? It's obviously different because you don't see ridiculous counters happening like Melee's crouch canceling.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Nucking futs.

Can't wait to see how this changes Smash 4's gameplay. And characters, too.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

We just tested this with 2 players and vectoring seems to still be in. The effects may have possibly be weaker but holding towards and away definitely has its differences.

Are you sure you're not using Crouch Cancelling?

 

[Jaxas]

We just tested this with 2 players and vectoring seems to still be in. The effects may have possibly be weaker but holding towards and away definitely has its differences.

Tested on Mute City's track:
- Height while pressing nothing, holding up, and holding down is exactly the same
- Holding sideways angles your knockback trajectory

Have you tested to see if momentum canceling has returned?

Judging from the BF data with DK, it looks like holding right (DI) lets you survive an additional 12% from pre patch to post patch, meaning DI is nearing the effectiveness it had in Brawl.

Not sure relative to v1.03, but all actions (jump/attack/AD) can be done at the same point out of hitstun from what I've found, and it didn't feel earlier; more testing will be needed though.

EDIT:

So can you explain how crouch canceling works in smash4? I didn't realize it was in until today ._.?
Does it work at all like Melee? It's obviously different because you don't see ridiculous counters happening like Melee's crouch canceling.

Lowers knockback, but doesn't stop hitstun basically.

 

[M@v]

Have you tested to see if momentum canceling has returned?

Judging from the BF data with DK, it looks like holding right (DI) lets you survive an additional 12% from pre patch to post patch, meaning DI is nearing the effectiveness it had in Brawl.

I hope to goodness Momentum cancelling doesn't exist. If it does it should be patched. It was a bug, but more importantly, people lived way too long.

Melee DI was the best DI. It was effective, but you couldn't live forever because no momentum cancelling.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Tested on Mute City's track:
- Height while pressing nothing, holding up, and holding down is exactly the same
- Holding sideways angles your knockback trajectory


Not sure relative to v1.03, but all actions (jump/attack/AD) can be done at the same point out of hitstun from what I've found, and it didn't feel earlier; more testing will be needed though.

Yeah I looked at the data again and realized I goofed reading the numbers, so ignore what I said.

 

[Thinkaman]

Let's say you are Mario on FD and get hit by the throw setup for it (Mii Brawler being at 100%). Do you live by DI'ing sideways?

Keep in mind that One-Inch Punch has a lot of trouble killing mid-weights. I'm at 120% and can't kill a CPU Mario off of a decent jump. (Not even close...)

We just tested this with 2 players and vectoring seems to still be in. The effects may have possibly be weaker but holding towards and away definitely has its differences.

What do you mean? The angular DI is still in. It is only the additional vertical vector-based component layered on top of that that has been removed.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The good news about this is that Dr. Mario has a true combo on the cast if DI is back. D-Throw into Fair at specific percents works on every character I believe, and with vectoring out of the equation...

YES

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd like more testing then a goofy stage hazard. I'm kinda disappointed if it's been reverted to the old, unintuitive imputs.

 

[Big O]

We just tested this with 2 players and vectoring seems to still be in. The effects may have possibly be weaker but holding towards and away definitely has its differences.

Since most attacks send you at a diagonal angle, DI towards and away should still effect survival (just like it does in Brawl/Melee). Try using a purely horizontal launching move and hold left/right as the defender. Then check to see if you notice any differences.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I did some testings on the subject of DI with Mute City's floor hitbox:

Mario dies at 104% without DI and at 107% with DI
Monado Shield Shulk dies at 208% without DI and at 211 with DI
Jigglypuff dies at 75% without DI and at 77% with it

Whoever was hoping for DI to make a big difference as far as survival is concerned will probably be disappointed as it makes a difference of only 2 or 3% depending the character's weight.

 

[NinjaLink]

We just tested with bowsers fsmash against jiggs. Got varying distances holding each direction. Holding towards bowser was shorter and away sent further.

 

[M@v]

The good news about this is that Dr. Mario has a true combo on the cast if DI is back. D-Throw into Fair at specific percents works on every character I believe, and with vectoring out of the equation...

YES

Doc had true combos even before vectoring. Dthrow fair didn't work though unless you read an early airdodge.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

I'm so looking forward to seeing how gameplay changes with this! I just hope they don't make another patch that nullifies everything they did.

 

[Jaxas]

I did some testings on the subject of DI with Mute City's floor hitbox:

Mario dies at 104% without DI and at 107% with DI
Monado Shield Shulk dies at 208% without DI and at 211 with DI
Jigglypuff dies at 75% without DI and at 77% with it

Whoever was hoping for DI to make a big difference as far as survival is concerned will probably be disappointed as it makes a difference of only 2 or 3% depending the character's weight.

So DI is now a combo breaker, but hardly effects survival?
Interesting...

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc had true combos even before vectoring. Dthrow fair didn't work though unless you read an early airdodge.

Well yes but at specific %s now this becomes much more reliable thanks to the removal of Vectoring. It just lets him do his classic Melee setup, which is awesome.

 

[DanGR]

It's interesting that only Rosalina's upsmash and Sheik's upair were the two vertically sending kill moves whose knockback was was reduced in 1.0.4.

Also, vector removal makes villager's buffed upsmash knockback even more significant. If only I could land the thing reliably...

 

[Starbound]

This is such a welcome and substantial change. Thanks for finding this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So DI is now a combo breaker, but hardly effects survival?
Interesting...

This is only Mute City though. Different moves may have different DI multipliers. I have nobody to test it with right now...

 

[GimR]

There can only be one of us Thinkaman

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Stocks take shorter

I'm ecstatic