Dash Grab Spacing and Why We Suck at Brawl

[Sinister Slush]

The post was mostly sarcasm.
So yeah, I know.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I wanna use X>B

 

[Yikarur]

have fun, DR is the reason I switched my controller :D

 

[Sarix]

I think I mentioned it in the OP, but I didn't really draw specific attention to defining it.
...
Ideally, your Burst Option is the attack with the most range that the opponent cannot realistically react to, thus giving you the most Burst Range. You want to combine speed + range.

Yeah you only touched on it a little bit but thanks for the info Delta-cod. At least now I know I was somewhat on the right track with how to space as Samus now. I feel like this thread deserves a sticky for the info it brings up that is fairly universal.

 

[Delta-cod]

@Egg Lay Discussion: Scatz, I'd consider that we sooooooooort of have a Burst Option in the air (DJCIT or DJCEL), but the fact is, is that they're sort of obvious. I play Pierce a bunch, and he always knows when I'm going to DJCEL because "Yoshi's not going to jump into the air and just Bair you", which is sort of true. It's DEFINITELY a valid move, but the more familiar an opponent is with Egg Lay, the less powerful it is (at least at neutral) because it's sort of telegraphed.

Now, I'd definitely consider it a good Parry option, which is something I didn't really discuss. Parrying is basically taking a disadvantaged situation and completely turning it around. It's usually risky, but it's got good reward. Yoshi's really good at parrying, since he has DJ Armor and Nair, both natural combo breakers. DJCEL also works for these purposes. It's a quick command grab that can really break an opponent's attempt to follow you.

Yeah you only touched on it a little bit but thanks for the info Delta-cod. At least now I know I was somewhat on the right track with how to space as Samus now. I feel like this thread deserves a sticky for the info it brings up that is fairly universal.

Haha, thanks. I wouldn't be opposed to anyone sharing it and bringing people here. I'd consider putting it in like, the Competitive Brawl Discussion Forum, but I'd probably need to rework the thread first. I pretty much wrote this for the Yoshis, which is pretty obvious since everything is about these concepts in terms of Yoshi.

 

[Sarix]

Haha, thanks. I wouldn't be opposed to anyone sharing it and bringing people here. I'd consider putting it in like, the Competitive Brawl Discussion Forum, but I'd probably need to rework the thread first. I pretty much wrote this for the Yoshis, which is pretty obvious since everything is about these concepts in terms of Yoshi.

I say go for it, this would definitely help a lot of players and I plan to reference this to help tutor the new and old players at my college gaming club about how to use this mindset for spacing. I actually didn't think it was that directed at Yoshi myself, he was used in a quite a few examples but I could immediately translate into thinking of how it would apply to Samus pretty easily.

 

[Conviction]

It's amazing what you find when you get bored and search the boards.

This is amazing Delta, I remember about 6 months ago Kadaj tried to explain this concept to me but I didn't quite understanding what he was saying but now I got this completely now after reading it.

So let's use an example. ZSS's burst range would dash attack or approach SH Side B right?

This wouldn't just apply to horizontal spacing (ground spacing; tilts and SH aerials) it would apply to vertical spacing to right? So characters that control vertical spacing pretty well like Fox or MK you would look out for moves like Shuttle Loop when you think of Vertical Burst Range true? Knowing things like this would be able to allow you to punish people who dash while their in foxtrot animation and such I'm guessing as well.

Now that I've been messing around with this concept trying to get the real meaning I think I really got it now and I can effectively apply it.

Great Post

+1 Yoshi Boards.

I think this should go in the Tatical play subforum. Just say you're using your example as Yoshi. If people can't think for a little and apply to their character they need a lot more help than just this concept.

 

[Delta-cod]

So let's use an example. ZSS's burst range would dash attack or approach SH Side B right?

I'd say Dash Attack would be the ideal move. I'm not too familiar with ZSS, but I don't think SH Side B is...fast enough. It's probably viable, but not as good as dash attack.

This wouldn't just apply to horizontal spacing (ground spacing; tilts and SH aerials) it would apply to vertical spacing to right? So characters that control vertical spacing pretty well like Fox or MK you would look out for moves like Shuttle Loop when you think of Vertical Burst Range true? Knowing things like this would be able to allow you to punish people who dash while their in foxtrot animation and such I'm guessing as well.

Well, the thing is is that I'm describing spacing while at neutral here. Most neutral spacing (neither character has true momentum over the other) occurs with both characters grounded (or near grounded in the case of SHs), meaning that horizontal distance is what's most important.

I think Vertical Burst Range is important for juggling or escaping juggles. This is why Fox is good at escaping juggles because he has high vertical mobility (fast FF, high and fast DJ), but it doesn't give him much Burst Range because he can't move far horizontally with it. Like, if I'm spacing Fox well, I'm not particularly worried about him jumping at me and Dairing because he has to commit pretty hard to closing the gap between us and then Dairing, which makes him more telegraphed and sorta hurts the idea of a Burst Option.

So yeah, being able to Burst Vertically is really different than being able to Burst Horizontally. I'd say Horizontal Bursting is much more useful at a neutral state (and going back to my Fox example, he's good at that too cuz he runs fast. MK is as well), while Vertical Bursting is more useful in follow ups/escaping follow ups.

I also may have missed your point, so if you could please explain it a little more it'd be helpful. I was kiiiiinnnnnnnnnd of confused and so I just sort of explained my thoughts on Vertical Burst Range in general. @_@

Great Post

+1 Yoshi Boards.

I think this should go in the Tatical play subforum. Just say you're using your example as Yoshi. If people can't think for a little and apply to their character they need a lot more help than just this concept.

Haha, thanks. I'll either post this in there or ask someone to move it there for me. I'd like to keep all these discussion posts in there, so I think the move is a better idea.

 

[Conviction]

I'd say Dash Attack would be the ideal move. I'm not too familiar with ZSS, but I don't think SH Side B is...fast enough. It's probably viable, but not as good as dash attack.

Aight, I'm cool I'm just seeing if I really understand it. One of the people I play with a lot (Hero) co-mains ZSS/Peach and this past Friday he was playing ZSS and those were the two moves that I felt I had to look at for the most but were also one of the most easy to bait.

Well, the thing is is that I'm describing spacing while at neutral here. Most neutral spacing (neither character has true momentum over the other) occurs with both characters grounded (or near grounded in the case of SHs), meaning that horizontal distance is what's most important.

I think Vertical Burst Range is important for juggling or escaping juggles. This is why Fox is good at escaping juggles because he has high vertical mobility (fast FF, high and fast DJ), but it doesn't give him much Burst Range because he can't move far horizontally with it. Like, if I'm spacing Fox well, I'm not particularly worried about him jumping at me and Dairing because he has to commit pretty hard to closing the gap between us and then Dairing, which makes him more telegraphed and sorta hurts the idea of a Burst Option.

So yeah, being able to Burst Vertically is really different than being able to Burst Horizontally. I'd say Horizontal Bursting is much more useful at a neutral state (and going back to my Fox example, he's good at that too cuz he runs fast. MK is as well), while Vertical Bursting is more useful in follow ups/escaping follow ups.

I also may have missed your point, so if you could please explain it a little more it'd be helpful. I was kiiiiinnnnnnnnnd of confused and so I just sort of explained my thoughts on Vertical Burst Range in general. @_@

The bolded was more of in the direction I was going. Haha, I was thinking more along the lines of after someone has gotten in and they've either place themselves above the opponent or they've popped their opponent into the air for juggling.

Now that you mentioin it vertical bursts would be good for escaping, I didn't think of that.

The rest that's not bolded was still helpful (lol I'm trying to test these things via wifi atm since none of the people I play are available at the moment, I'll get better results at smashfest or something though I'm sure.)

Haha, thanks. I'll either post this in there or ask someone to move it there for me. I'd like to keep all these discussion posts in there, so I think the move is a better idea.

Definitely try to get a move to happen.

Oh I hope this doesn't go too far off tangent but after a little bit of thinking, go over some replays/videos of my gameplay recently and going to a smashfest yesterday and then watching that 2nd video that came next in the playlist that you link to the first video with, I'm starting to feel sheilding is a weak option in most cases.

Do you agree?

I share the same sentiments that Lucien had in the video I'm refering to. Soo many people sheild in fear. It just limits your options too much, like I feel as if you can get someone to sheild you can basically play a rigged game of rock, paper, scissors.

• Sheild; able to be beaten with a spaced attack, cross-up, grab, multi-hit (cross-up or spaced depends on your character, I'll just say Fox since that's my area of expertise. If I want to make your sheild smaller and I know you'll sheild I'll just Cross-up Dair and then maybe Utilt depending on how safe I feel. I might even stop and wait to see and react to a spotdodge or dodge roll), or just a well spaced attack that sheild pokes the opponent.
• Spotdodge; able to be beaten with a sex kick, multi-hit, can also be punished by baiting it with a jab or empty SH so you can punish the vunerablitiy.
• Dodge Roll; Can be beaten off reaction with almost anymove if baited or can just be read
• Out of Sheild Options; Can be baited, leaving the opponent hard committed and you can punish them. Say Peach Nairs OoS or Diddy's Bairs OoS, and you baited it, there is not much where she/he can go, so you punish it.

Obviously these moves still have their uses but I'm starting to see how weak you can make them and the video confirmed it for me.

 

[Delta-cod]

Aight, I'm cool I'm just seeing if I really understand it. One of the people I play with a lot (Hero) co-mains ZSS/Peach and this past Friday he was playing ZSS and those were the two moves that I felt I had to look at for the most but were also one of the most easy to bait.

Yes, Burst Option moves should definitely be baited and punished. They're usually a default option, so they should be expected. However, they're default options for a reason: They're good and they work. In most cases, at least with Yoshi, even if they know I'm gonna dash grab, it still connects because it's just so damn fast. It's one of the examples I use to demonstrate the idea to people when I'm explaining it to them. I'll sit at my Burst Range and tell them, "I'm going to Dash Grab. Avoid it." They still get grabbed anyways. This gets even harder to avoid in a real match without any form of pre-positioning (jumping back, for example, in anticipation of a dash grab), or a read of when exactly I'm going to approach.

The bolded was more of in the direction I was going. Haha, I was thinking more along the lines of after someone has gotten in and they've either place themselves above the opponent or they've popped their opponent into the air for juggling.

Ah, glad I covered it. XD

Yep, Vertical Speed is amazing for juggles. MK doesn't exactly have amazing speed when ascending, but he has a decent FF and a very good Uair that allow him to get around that flaw. I believe Fox is good at avoiding MK's juggles because he's able to fall through MK so quickly (correct me if I'm wrong. Just trying to give examples.)

Oh I hope this doesn't go too far off tangent but after a little bit of thinking, go over some replays/videos of my gameplay recently and going to a smashfest yesterday and then watching that 2nd video that came next in the playlist that you link to the first video with, I'm starting to feel sheilding is a weak option in most cases.

Do you agree?

I share the same sentiments that Lucien had in the video I'm refering to. Soo many people sheild in fear. It just limits your options too much, like I feel as if you can get someone to sheild you can basically play a rigged game of rock, paper, scissors.

• Sheild; able to be beaten with a spaced attack, cross-up, grab, multi-hit (cross-up or spaced depends on your character, I'll just say Fox since that's my area of expertise. If I want to make your sheild smaller and I know you'll sheild I'll just Cross-up Dair and then maybe Utilt depending on how safe I feel. I might even stop and wait to see and react to a spotdodge or dodge roll), or just a well spaced attack that sheild pokes the opponent.
• Spotdodge; able to be beaten with a sex kick, multi-hit, can also be punished by baiting it with a jab or empty SH so you can punish the vunerablitiy.
• Dodge Roll; Can be beaten off reaction with almost anymove if baited or can just be read
• Out of Sheild Options; Can be baited, leaving the opponent hard committed and you can punish them. Say Peach Nairs OoS or Diddy's Bairs OoS, and you baited it, there is not much where she/he can go, so you punish it.

Obviously these moves still have their uses but I'm starting to see how weak you can make them and the video confirmed it for me.

Well, as a Yoshi main, I don't shield much in general. But yes, I do agree somewhat. Shielding isn't always the greatest option, but it's also not a terrible one. I do want to say this, though:

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH RUNNING AWAY.

I often find that dashing away when you feel pressured is better because it doesn't force you to commit to an option. It also causes a reset in the situation. You'll both be back at neutral, but you'll just have less stage. Shields usually change the state of the game a bit too much if they're held too long. The only downside to this is that you lose stage control, so eventually you lose the ability to do this.

I'm no expert on shields because I don't really have a conventional one, but I don't see any harm in using them. If you use them too much during spacing like this, I can see you suffering some abuse, because as you said, it is limiting to a degree. I don't see a problem with quick dashing shields to space/bait a Burst Attack (dash attack or whatever) at neutral, as long as it's not overused because your opponent will just start grabbing you. It's a weakness I have when I use a character other than Yoshi - I run in and shield too much and get grab *****.

 

[Conviction]

Yes, Burst Option moves should definitely be baited and punished. They're usually a default option, so they should be expected. However, they're default options for a reason: They're good and they work. In most cases, at least with Yoshi, even if they know I'm gonna dash grab, it still connects because it's just so damn fast. It's one of the examples I use to demonstrate the idea to people when I'm explaining it to them. I'll sit at my Burst Range and tell them, "I'm going to Dash Grab. Avoid it." They still get grabbed anyways. This gets even harder to avoid in a real match without any form of pre-positioning (jumping back, for example, in anticipation of a dash grab), or a read of when exactly I'm going to approach.

So basically default options will most likely be the burst optioin. It's abused because it's good.

Ah, glad I covered it. XD

Yep, Vertical Speed is amazing for juggles. MK doesn't exactly have amazing speed when ascending, but he has a decent FF and a very good Uair that allow him to get around that flaw. I believe Fox is good at avoiding MK's juggles because he's able to fall through MK so quickly (correct me if I'm wrong. Just trying to give examples.)

Haha you're correct.

Well, as a Yoshi main, I don't shield much in general. But yes, I do agree somewhat. Shielding isn't always the greatest option, but it's also not a terrible one. I do want to say this, though:

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH RUNNING AWAY.

I often find that dashing away when you feel pressured is better because it doesn't force you to commit to an option. It also causes a reset in the situation. You'll both be back at neutral, but you'll just have less stage. Shields usually change the state of the game a bit too much if they're held too long. The only downside to this is that you lose stage control, so eventually you lose the ability to do this.

I'm no expert on shields because I don't really have a conventional one, but I don't see any harm in using them. If you use them too much during spacing like this, I can see you suffering some abuse, because as you said, it is limiting to a degree. I don't see a problem with quick dashing shields to space/bait a Burst Attack (dash attack or whatever) at neutral, as long as it's not overused because your opponent will just start grabbing you. It's a weakness I have when I use a character other than Yoshi - I run in and shield too much and get grab *****.

Yeah this is basically what I mean, just a general mobility thing (that Orion taught me).

Aight thanks homie, I got it now, time to actually apply it.

 

[Conviction]

Sorry for double post but this will help people understand what you are saying here.

4:40-4:46 was a perfect example of Burst Spacing and Kakera baited Otori to get the free shield grab.

 

[Delta-cod]

Sorry for double post but this will help people understand what you are saying here.

4:40-4:46 was a perfect example of Burst Spacing and Kakera baited Otori to get the free shield grab.

Yes, that's EXACTLY the kind of stuff I was talking about.

Thanks for the video.

It doesn't look like Otori was ideally spaced for the Dash Attack, though. He was visibly dashing to close space for a little bit before dash attacking, so Kakera was able to punish.

 

[Conviction]

Tbqh, as I watch more of their vids, the Japanese as a whole do this a lot.

I'm watch Earth vs. Otori right now and Otori is dominating because of his better mastery over this and just reading him

 

[Sharky]

good thing this guy doesn't play brawl, or this concept would be gone out the window =P

 

[Nicholas1024]

Someone sticky this thread in the competitive discussion forum, this is a great idea.

Anyway, what would you say Pika's best burst option moves? I'm guessing dash-grab/dash attack (up smash feels a touch too slow) and perhaps even QAC to aerial?

 

[Yikarur]

brokeen D:

 

[Scatz]

As a Pika co-main, I'd agree to those. I find that Pika expresses much better in punishing options, so his burst moves aren't as strong except for grab. Even then, I would say that he has some interesting ones since a correctly placed QAC can punish options fairly well (even long distance options). I also find that dash grab and upsmash to be pretty good burst moves (grab obviously being superior since it gives us combos).

 

[Conviction]

I'm likely wrong but QAC might be a really good mix-up for those who are spacing outside of your dash distance or tilt range.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I'll check everything out when I have the chance, but looks like a great and much needed thread Delta! Nice Job. I think those Will vs Karamity matches have what you are talking about...check those out

Edit: This reminds me of the new Street Fighter video where a high-level player is explaining the basics of high level play, but he mentioned Spacing as a #1 aspect of why moves work, and that one is limited to their range in relation to the opponents range of attacks.

 

[Deleted member]

About vertical burst spacing... isnt metaknights aerial shuttle loop a prime example. Id argue that the burst zone on Mks aerial up b and how impossible it is to react to (you have to make such a hard and risky read to avoid it a lot of the time) is what makes Mk the great character he is. I mean its not straight vertical i guess its diagonal, but i think thats important. I think aerial shuttle loop is at least as important as MKs strong burst range on the ground, probably more because his aerial mobility isnt great besides that.

 

[Conviction]

This reminds me of the new Street Fighter video where a high-level player is explaining the basics of high level play, but he mentioned Spacing as a #1 aspect of why moves work, and that one is limited to their range in relation to the opponents range of attacks.

I know that video series as well. This similiar but easier to digest since it's 100%, you don't have to do the SF to Smash conversion, you know?

About vertical burst spacing... isnt metaknights aerial shuttle loop a prime example. Id argue that the burst zone on Mks aerial up b and how impossible it is to react to (you have to make such a hard and risky read to avoid it a lot of the time) is what makes Mk the great character he is. I mean its not straight vertical i guess its diagonal, but i think thats important. I think aerial shuttle loop is at least as important as MKs strong burst range on the ground, probably more because his aerial mobility isnt great besides that.

Aerial shuttle is a prime example. MK's burst space is usually dash attack/dash grab, but I learn more into this I see that mix-ups are just important in this as anything else. MK's tornado is a reasonably good mix-up in burst spacing, punishing those that are playing around his dash grab/attack burst space. You follow me right?

So say for example Snake. His burst space at close is Ftilt, Utilt, Jab and Dtilt. His mix-ups for the person that wants to close that space would be grab (or at least I'd think so) plus his grenade game (which actually makes other character's burst spacing a lot harder to use if Snake is aware of this concept) and then for those who are playing outside of that range, Dash attack and Dacus would be his mix-ups.

There is so much that go into this because then you can bait, trap people, punish them by not hitting them but making them lose more stage control, etc.

So far (lol 1 days progress has actually come some way for me already) implementing this in my game has already helped me. I'll post some videos at the next tourney or smashfest, or whatever friendlies I get. Hopefully it'll show the concept being used, obviously it won't be at it's best though.

EDIT: Here are some lower level examples of burst spacing than the previous video. These two really don't put the pressure on enough, even though you can tell they have a grasp of the concept.

 

[Deleted member]

Well snakes dash attack isnt just a mixup, its a primary spacing option, much more than down tilt.

MKs foward roll is also a broken burst option. It doesnt have a hitbox but u know u roll and grab or roll and attack. Another reason MK controls space on the ground so well.

but yea i follow you

 

[Conviction]

It's the fact of his moves' range, his ground speed, and how when does moves like fair depending on his position he does while in move allows him not to commit. Enabling him to put up walls to close space.

 

[Deleted member]

And the fact that when you are taking into account all of these things and all of his rediculous amount of spacing options he can just roll behind you and grab you xD

 

[Delta-cod]

Having to take into account so many options also has a notable effect on reaction time. It's harder to react to options if you have too many things to think about.

Sorry for not being so active in this thread lately. But Iblis definitely has the right idea, and reading over his posts, his explanations are correct, so I don't need to say much else.

 

[Sharky]

dr is amazing for this, confirmed in copious amounts of friendlies today =D

 

[Conviction]

So when is that move happening?

 

[Delta-cod]

To be honest, I haven't put a request in yet, and I also haven't made some necessary edits into the OP (some credits, etc.).

I suppose I'll just have to get off my *** and do it, lol.

 

[Conviction]

I guess I'm just the most vocal advocate out a group of people that want this to grow and expand. Looking at it this might just be a stepping stone. So please it would be nice if you made a move to a more active place that would discuss this. (Even though I fear derailment)

OH here is a nice long little convo I had with Gheb over the subject.
[COLLAPSE="Burst Spacing Conversation"][2/7/2012 4:23:07 PM] GBizzle: k
[2/7/2012 4:23:49 PM] GBizzle: fyi i not good at randomly starting conversations 0_0
[2/7/2012 4:24:01 PM] GBizzle: if you wanna chat just go ahead <_<
[2/7/2012 4:24:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: ohhh I assumed so
[2/7/2012 4:24:26 PM] Jaleel Turner: after your k
[2/7/2012 4:24:30 PM] GBizzle: XD
[2/7/2012 4:24:35 PM] Jaleel Turner: hahaha
[2/7/2012 4:24:42 PM] Jaleel Turner: but um
[2/7/2012 4:24:55 PM] Jaleel Turner: Actually I guess I do have a reason to messsage you
[2/7/2012 4:25:42 PM] Jaleel Turner: What Japanese videos would reconmend for me to watch if I wanted to look at the use of footsies?
[2/7/2012 4:25:51 PM] GBizzle: what is that?
[2/7/2012 4:26:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: Footsies?
[2/7/2012 4:26:38 PM] GBizzle: yea
[2/7/2012 4:26:41 PM] Jaleel Turner: Basically, a different form of spacing
[2/7/2012 4:26:57 PM] Jaleel Turner: Eh, you've seen Delta-Cod's thread on Burst Spacing?
[2/7/2012 4:27:22 PM] GBizzle: i didn't read deeply into it
[2/7/2012 4:27:26 PM] GBizzle: I know what he means though
[2/7/2012 4:27:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah
[2/7/2012 4:27:37 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's the same thing
[2/7/2012 4:27:54 PM] GBizzle: wait a sec
[2/7/2012 4:32:13 PM] GBizzle: found it
[2/7/2012 4:32:22 PM] GBizzle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R5zjdmGTLA
[2/7/2012 4:32:27 PM] GBizzle: watch this
[2/7/2012 4:32:35 PM] GBizzle: and take a close look at his laser game
[2/7/2012 4:32:39 PM] GBizzle: especially from 2:40 onwards
[2/7/2012 4:32:39 PM] Jaleel Turner: aight
[2/7/2012 4:33:10 PM] Jaleel Turner: oh I've seen this
[2/7/2012 4:33:17 PM] Jaleel Turner: I watch the whole upload of this tourney
[2/7/2012 4:33:26 PM] GBizzle: you haven't seen it closely enough
[2/7/2012 4:33:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: here
[2/7/2012 4:33:39 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'll tell what he is doing then
[2/7/2012 4:33:44 PM] GBizzle: k
[2/7/2012 4:33:56 PM] Jaleel Turner: so you can see that I've started to get a grasp on this concept
[2/7/2012 4:34:04 PM] Jaleel Turner: (learned about 2 days ago)
[2/7/2012 4:34:15 PM] GBizzle: heh
[2/7/2012 4:34:25 PM] GBizzle: now i'm intrigued
[2/7/2012 4:34:31 PM] GBizzle: I wonder if we realized the same thing
[2/7/2012 4:34:35 PM] Jaleel Turner: so
[2/7/2012 4:34:38 PM] Jaleel Turner: he is lasering
[2/7/2012 4:34:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: not to camp
[2/7/2012 4:34:46 PM] Jaleel Turner: but waiting for an reaction
[2/7/2012 4:34:55 PM] Jaleel Turner: and he is playing outside MK's max range
[2/7/2012 4:35:04 PM] Jaleel Turner: i.e. Dash Attack/Dash Grab
[2/7/2012 4:35:06 PM] GBizzle: yes, that's part of it
[2/7/2012 4:35:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: and actually
[2/7/2012 4:35:26 PM] Jaleel Turner: at this point about 3:4-
[2/7/2012 4:35:28 PM] GBizzle: but take a closer look at ALL follow-ups to lasers
[2/7/2012 4:35:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: 3:40*
[2/7/2012 4:35:34 PM] GBizzle: from 2:40 onwards
[2/7/2012 4:35:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: he is outside of MK's tornado too
[2/7/2012 4:35:46 PM] Jaleel Turner: and okay
[2/7/2012 4:37:15 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay I'm done yet but I'm going to make a say on what I've seen so far (I'll continue though, it's hypothesis). So he is basically staying grounded for the follow up, only dashing in
[2/7/2012 4:37:30 PM] GBizzle: it's ... a lot more fundamental
[2/7/2012 4:37:49 PM] GBizzle: it's about what happens at the very core of the game
[2/7/2012 4:37:52 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah he did it again
[2/7/2012 4:37:54 PM] Jaleel Turner: ?
[2/7/2012 4:37:58 PM] GBizzle: watch the match again
[2/7/2012 4:38:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: I keep seeing him dash sheild grab
[2/7/2012 4:38:28 PM] Jaleel Turner: well not grab
[2/7/2012 4:38:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: but dash sheild
[2/7/2012 4:38:34 PM] GBizzle: from 2:40 onwards his follow up to laser don't get punished any more
[2/7/2012 4:38:44 PM] GBizzle: for the rest of the game
[2/7/2012 4:38:54 PM] GBizzle: whatever option he chooses straight after the laser
[2/7/2012 4:39:03 PM] GBizzle: he always ends up not getting punished
[2/7/2012 4:39:04 PM] GBizzle: that's pretty insane
[2/7/2012 4:39:12 PM] Jaleel Turner: Wait hold on
[2/7/2012 4:39:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: I saw him get punished though
[2/7/2012 4:39:43 PM] GBizzle: maybe one time
[2/7/2012 4:40:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: I see what you mean though
[2/7/2012 4:40:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: his mix-ups
[2/7/2012 4:40:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: are
[2/7/2012 4:40:52 PM] Jaleel Turner: well actually
[2/7/2012 4:40:56 PM] Jaleel Turner: psuedo-perfect
[2/7/2012 4:41:11 PM] Jaleel Turner: first his wasn't getting punished for dash sheilding
[2/7/2012 4:41:12 PM] Jaleel Turner: so
[2/7/2012 4:41:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: El switched to spotdodge to avoid what he taught was an incoming grab
[2/7/2012 4:41:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: but instead Yui dash attacked
[2/7/2012 4:42:09 PM] GBizzle: after 2:58 none of his direct follow ups to laser get punished
[2/7/2012 4:42:18 PM] Jaleel Turner: Yeah it's like
[2/7/2012 4:42:23 PM] GBizzle: and after that he stopped taking damage almost completely
[2/7/2012 4:42:27 PM] Jaleel Turner: he is inside El's mind completely
[2/7/2012 4:42:43 PM] GBizzle: from like 2:40 onward he wouldn't drop a stock anymore
[2/7/2012 4:42:51 PM] GBizzle: it's not even so much about being in his mind
[2/7/2012 4:43:05 PM] GBizzle: than about understanding when you can follow up with what
[2/7/2012 4:43:18 PM] GBizzle: Fox lasers have no stun
[2/7/2012 4:43:50 PM] GBizzle: yet he gets an upsmash or two, two or three grabs and at least three dash attacks in
[2/7/2012 4:44:24 PM] GBizzle: im pretty sure that has something to do with the "footsies" you're talking about
[2/7/2012 4:44:41 PM] GBizzle: because he doesn't just poop on MKs "burst spacing" range
[2/7/2012 4:45:04 PM] GBizzle: but he also enhances Fox "burst range"
[2/7/2012 4:45:10 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah he does!
[2/7/2012 4:45:22 PM] GBizzle: it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense
[2/7/2012 4:45:36 PM] GBizzle: but Fox' laser looks like a great spacing / zoning tool
[2/7/2012 4:45:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: probably because it doesn't do stun
[2/7/2012 4:45:57 PM] Jaleel Turner: physically
[2/7/2012 4:46:05 PM] GBizzle: im not sure about that
[2/7/2012 4:46:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: I think it's a psych thing
[2/7/2012 4:46:12 PM] GBizzle: possibly
[2/7/2012 4:46:17 PM] GBizzle: but really
[2/7/2012 4:46:27 PM] GBizzle: El has so much experience in this match-up
[2/7/2012 4:46:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: true
[2/7/2012 4:46:42 PM] GBizzle: I don't think he's unaware of MKs options against it
[2/7/2012 4:47:05 PM] GBizzle: [incidentally, this is one of the vey few sets vs MK that Yui ends up losing]
[2/7/2012 4:47:21 PM] GBizzle: [winning record vs El, Rain and Otori]
[2/7/2012 4:47:59 PM] Jaleel Turner: wow
[2/7/2012 4:48:15 PM] Jaleel Turner: Hmmm, I really want to know what's behind that then
[2/7/2012 4:48:27 PM] Jaleel Turner: everything works for a reason
[2/7/2012 4:48:36 PM] Jaleel Turner: once I can learn that reason, I could apply it
[2/7/2012 4:49:01 PM] Jaleel Turner: same with burst spacing/footsies, that's why I'm trying my best to understand it now
[2/7/2012 4:49:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: so as I apply it, I don't apply it the wrong way. In other words make my game worse because I added something I don't grasp
[2/7/2012 4:49:31 PM] GBizzle: SLS is also quite amazing at it [with Falco]
[2/7/2012 4:49:43 PM] GBizzle: even against MK
[2/7/2012 4:49:54 PM] GBizzle: his baits and approaches hardly ever get punished
[2/7/2012 4:50:05 PM] GBizzle: that's quite remarkable considering Falco's character design
[2/7/2012 4:50:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm listening
[2/7/2012 4:50:35 PM] Jaleel Turner: I trying to take this in right now
[2/7/2012 4:50:40 PM] GBizzle: let's see
[2/7/2012 4:50:47 PM] GBizzle: there's his two sets vs Kakera
[2/7/2012 4:50:51 PM] GBizzle: both best of 3
[2/7/2012 4:50:56 PM] GBizzle: he wins all 4 of them
[2/7/2012 4:50:59 PM] GBizzle: 3 of them are two stocks
[2/7/2012 4:51:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: Link please?
[2/7/2012 4:51:11 PM] GBizzle: not sure which one to look at first though
[2/7/2012 4:51:18 PM] Jaleel Turner: oh, okay
[2/7/2012 4:51:46 PM] GBizzle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-w2ZwKTC60
[2/7/2012 4:52:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay, let's see
[2/7/2012 4:53:13 PM] Jaleel Turner: Okay
[2/7/2012 4:53:25 PM] Jaleel Turner: soo at first glance (what I'm getting right now)
[2/7/2012 4:53:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: so he is burst spacing obviously
[2/7/2012 4:53:44 PM] Jaleel Turner: but he is slowly giving away his stage control
[2/7/2012 4:54:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: when in actuality he is lurring Kakera into spacing punishing him
[2/7/2012 4:54:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: but when SLS lasers
[2/7/2012 4:54:37 PM] Jaleel Turner: Kakera is in Falco's range to punish
[2/7/2012 4:54:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: *continues the match*
[2/7/2012 4:55:05 PM] GBizzle: hmm maybe that's not the best match
[2/7/2012 4:56:12 PM] Jaleel Turner: OK
[2/7/2012 4:56:19 PM] Jaleel Turner: now it's really obvious i think
[2/7/2012 4:56:21 PM] Jaleel Turner: look
[2/7/2012 4:56:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: at
[2/7/2012 4:56:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: 1:16
[2/7/2012 4:56:41 PM] Jaleel Turner: to
[2/7/2012 4:57:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: 1:28
[2/7/2012 4:57:13 PM] Jaleel Turner: so Kakera is offstage
[2/7/2012 4:57:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: but SLS is keeping the range I noticed earlier the same
[2/7/2012 4:57:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: even when he SH'd towards him and retreated DJ'd away
[2/7/2012 4:57:53 PM] Jaleel Turner: he made sure landed right back into that zone
[2/7/2012 4:58:17 PM] Jaleel Turner: and when Kakera landed on stage, SLS moved slightly back to retain that zone
[2/7/2012 4:58:29 PM] GBizzle: let's see if I can find something better
[2/7/2012 4:58:38 PM] Jaleel Turner: aight
[2/7/2012 4:58:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: but what I'm saying
[2/7/2012 4:58:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: does it make sense?
[2/7/2012 4:59:01 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm asking cause I want to know if I'm getting this concept right
[2/7/2012 4:59:02 PM] Jaleel Turner: haha
[2/7/2012 4:59:12 PM] GBizzle: it somewhat does
[2/7/2012 4:59:44 PM] Jaleel Turner: where is it lacking?
[2/7/2012 5:00:02 PM] GBizzle: you understand the concept
[2/7/2012 5:00:18 PM] GBizzle: but you're perhaps unaware of the extent and the minor details of it
[2/7/2012 5:00:26 PM] GBizzle: *the extent to which it matters
[2/7/2012 5:00:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: and that's what I really want to know
[2/7/2012 5:00:59 PM] GBizzle: OK, here's what I think is the best vid for that:
[2/7/2012 5:01:03 PM] GBizzle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsEeSIRijGM
[2/7/2012 5:01:06 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay
[2/7/2012 5:02:09 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm kind of seeing the same stuff from the last vid
[2/7/2012 5:02:22 PM] GBizzle: it's more extreme here
[2/7/2012 5:03:18 PM] Jaleel Turner: yes it is a lot
[2/7/2012 5:03:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: SLS is holding that zone
[2/7/2012 5:03:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: and every time Kakera tries to close it
[2/7/2012 5:03:38 PM] GBizzle: right
[2/7/2012 5:03:42 PM] Jaleel Turner: it doesn't work out most of the time
[2/7/2012 5:04:07 PM] GBizzle: he just doesn't find a way to get
[2/7/2012 5:04:19 PM] GBizzle: one thing I'll point out in particular once I watched the match
[2/7/2012 5:04:52 PM] Jaleel Turner: aight what's that?
[2/7/2012 5:05:38 PM] GBizzle: around ~0:40
[2/7/2012 5:05:59 PM] GBizzle: you'll see that he doesn't laser as soon as he's "out" of the zone
[2/7/2012 5:06:32 PM] GBizzle: between 0:37 and 0:38 it is
[2/7/2012 5:06:37 PM] GBizzle: where he does an empty SH
[2/7/2012 5:06:42 PM] GBizzle: not going for the laser
[2/7/2012 5:06:50 PM] GBizzle: because kkr was withing the burst range
[2/7/2012 5:07:29 PM] GBizzle: it's extremely calculated
[2/7/2012 5:08:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: seemed like he waiting for an reaction
[2/7/2012 5:09:53 PM] Jaleel Turner: while baiting him because he was in a SH, seemingly preparing to laser
[2/7/2012 5:10:13 PM] GBizzle: na he just didn't laser because he would've gotten punished
[2/7/2012 5:10:22 PM] GBizzle: once again take notes on the laser follow-ups:
[2/7/2012 5:10:34 PM] GBizzle: hardy does he get punished by anything worse than a mere dtilt
[2/7/2012 5:10:44 PM] GBizzle: after whiffing laser -> grab
[2/7/2012 5:10:48 PM] GBizzle: very calculated risk
[2/7/2012 5:11:50 PM] Jaleel Turner: because of his spacing correct?
[2/7/2012 5:11:57 PM] GBizzle: right
[2/7/2012 5:12:05 PM] GBizzle: he just stays "in the zone" as you say it
[2/7/2012 5:12:38 PM] Jaleel Turner: Mhhmm exactly
[2/7/2012 5:13:51 PM] Jaleel Turner: so I got to start noticing more defined details like that?
[2/7/2012 5:13:58 PM] GBizzle: well
[2/7/2012 5:14:10 PM] GBizzle: the first thing I watch out when observing players
[2/7/2012 5:14:13 PM] GBizzle: is punishment
[2/7/2012 5:14:18 PM] GBizzle: what did they get punished for?
[2/7/2012 5:14:32 PM] GBizzle: and what did they get punished by?
[2/7/2012 5:15:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay, I'm listening
[2/7/2012 5:15:31 PM] GBizzle: really, looking at those matches again
[2/7/2012 5:15:42 PM] GBizzle: as long as SLS / Yui remained in a neutral position
[2/7/2012 5:15:56 PM] GBizzle: the punishing options the opponents had seemed rather pathetic
[2/7/2012 5:16:22 PM] GBizzle: they just control the space
[2/7/2012 5:17:13 PM] GBizzle: which lies exactly one step behing the opponent's powershield
[2/7/2012 5:17:39 PM] GBizzle: that's the burst range they cover
[2/7/2012 5:17:52 PM] GBizzle: a very interesting approach to match-up
[2/7/2012 5:18:02 PM] GBizzle: and probably more conclusive than a lot of what has been discussed so far
[2/7/2012 5:18:34 PM] GBizzle: .... Falco and Fox can cover that space vs MK really well
[2/7/2012 5:19:12 PM] Jaleel Turner: listening
[2/7/2012 5:19:16 PM] GBizzle: all their powerful options lie within that space and MKs options to get in are all somewhat suspectible [sp?] to one option or the other
[2/7/2012 5:19:30 PM] GBizzle: it still comes down to reading
[2/7/2012 5:20:01 PM] GBizzle: but those two being able to force MK to constantly have to deal with some sort of "powerplay" must be hard to deal with
[2/7/2012 5:20:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: I see
[2/7/2012 5:21:09 PM] GBizzle: breaking the burst spacing of the opponent ... might just be the very key to effective offensive play
[2/7/2012 5:21:26 PM] Jaleel Turner: Which I think so too! I just wasn't sure
[2/7/2012 5:21:35 PM] GBizzle: setting up a good burst spacing zone against the opponent ... might just be the very key to effective defensive play
[2/7/2012 5:22:07 PM] GBizzle: both - breaking and setting it up - are related to each other
[2/7/2012 5:22:15 PM] GBizzle: to some extent at least
[2/7/2012 5:22:28 PM] GBizzle: wait
[2/7/2012 5:22:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: listening
[2/7/2012 5:22:48 PM] GBizzle: no i'm pretty sure that's right
[2/7/2012 5:22:56 PM] GBizzle: although the terminology might be off
[2/7/2012 5:23:23 PM] GBizzle: there might be a better word for "offensive" and "defensive" play
[2/7/2012 5:23:34 PM] GBizzle: ... Sonic isn't a very "offensive" character
[2/7/2012 5:23:58 PM] GBizzle: even though his play is all about breaking the "burst zone" as I will call it from now on
[2/7/2012 5:24:37 PM] GBizzle: no, I'm pretty sure I'm right
[2/7/2012 5:24:42 PM] GBizzle: XD
[2/7/2012 5:25:25 PM] GBizzle: yeah, I stick to what I said earlier about "offense" and "defense"
[2/7/2012 5:25:29 PM] GBizzle: I like that concept^^
[2/7/2012 5:26:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: I think it sounds pretty solid too
[2/7/2012 5:26:32 PM] GBizzle: ... you should talk to TKD about it
[2/7/2012 5:26:35 PM] GBizzle: if you have contact with him
[2/7/2012 5:26:45 PM] GBizzle: I'm sure he's very interested in that kind of stuff
[2/7/2012 5:26:45 PM] Jaleel Turner: Trying my best try to connect it to Fox
[2/7/2012 5:26:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah he is
[2/7/2012 5:26:54 PM] Jaleel Turner: next he gets AIM
[2/7/2012 5:26:58 PM] GBizzle: Yui gives you a good example how to do it
[2/7/2012 5:27:04 PM] Jaleel Turner: (probably in two months)
[2/7/2012 5:27:10 PM] GBizzle: Fox seems good at ... both
[2/7/2012 5:27:15 PM] GBizzle: setting it up and breaking it
[2/7/2012 5:28:05 PM] GBizzle: maybe that's why "conventional" characters without special gimmicks
[2/7/2012 5:28:16 PM] GBizzle: seem to be unable to go beyond even with him
[2/7/2012 5:28:24 PM] GBizzle: same as Falco who is also very good at both
[2/7/2012 5:29:21 PM] GBizzle: hmmm, and come to think of it
[2/7/2012 5:29:34 PM] GBizzle: characters that are really strong at setting up a "burst zone"
[2/7/2012 5:30:02 PM] GBizzle: are the ones I believe to either go even with MK or being potentially able to go even with him
[2/7/2012 5:31:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm still here
[2/7/2012 5:31:35 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm not sure if you want me to throw back my thoughts or so
[2/7/2012 5:31:45 PM] GBizzle: of course
[2/7/2012 5:31:53 PM] GBizzle: opposition is the most interesting thing in life
[2/7/2012 5:32:00 PM] GBizzle: everything else isn't a challenge
[2/7/2012 5:32:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: Well honestly
[2/7/2012 5:32:45 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's where I was going with my train of thought for burst zoning
[2/7/2012 5:33:00 PM] GBizzle: about what exactly?
[2/7/2012 5:33:09 PM] Jaleel Turner: the offensive and defensive
[2/7/2012 5:33:23 PM] GBizzle: ok
[2/7/2012 5:33:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: if you got a character that has solid options
[2/7/2012 5:33:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: not gimmicks
[2/7/2012 5:33:50 PM] Jaleel Turner: this concept will always work
[2/7/2012 5:34:02 PM] Jaleel Turner: because it's not something that is an extension of a gimmick
[2/7/2012 5:34:03 PM] GBizzle: hmmm
[2/7/2012 5:34:08 PM] Jaleel Turner: once a gimmick is learned
[2/7/2012 5:34:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: it's either useless or greatly diminished
[2/7/2012 5:34:45 PM] GBizzle: diminished being equal to "situational"
[2/7/2012 5:34:56 PM] Jaleel Turner: yep
[2/7/2012 5:36:46 PM] Jaleel Turner: so
[2/7/2012 5:36:56 PM] Jaleel Turner: characters like
[2/7/2012 5:37:09 PM] Jaleel Turner: let's ZSS or Lucario might benefit as much from this
[2/7/2012 5:37:16 PM] Jaleel Turner: as the previously mentioned Falco and Fox
[2/7/2012 5:37:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: I can see Lucario's defense being up but his offensive and I only see it as an add-on gimmick for ZSS
[2/7/2012 5:38:11 PM] GBizzle: hmmm
[2/7/2012 5:38:48 PM] GBizzle: I'm not sure if that's really true
[2/7/2012 5:38:53 PM] GBizzle: I'll think about it a little
[2/7/2012 5:39:19 PM] GBizzle: but you're probably right about Lucario
[2/7/2012 5:39:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: I could possibly be wrong I don't a lot about them besides the MU
[2/7/2012 5:40:27 PM] GBizzle: Lucarios burst zone ... it doesn't seem like its anything special
[2/7/2012 5:40:29 PM] GBizzle: in terms of space
[2/7/2012 5:40:36 PM] GBizzle: or in terms of powerful options within it
[2/7/2012 5:40:41 PM] GBizzle: it seems very average overall
[2/7/2012 5:40:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's what I think
[2/7/2012 5:41:18 PM] GBizzle: his ability to break an opponent's burst zone
[2/7/2012 5:41:27 PM] GBizzle: seems somewhat limited as well
[2/7/2012 5:41:31 PM] GBizzle: I'll give you that
[2/7/2012 5:42:20 PM] GBizzle: ZSS seems to be better at both overall
[2/7/2012 5:43:02 PM] GBizzle: I guess there are solid characers ... whose burst zone she can break through
[2/7/2012 5:44:05 PM] GBizzle: better than Lucario can
[2/7/2012 5:46:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: mus coming into play
[2/7/2012 5:48:19 PM] GBizzle: this allows for a somewhat fresh approach to characters
[2/7/2012 5:48:25 PM] GBizzle: and reevaluate some of them
[2/7/2012 5:48:49 PM] GBizzle: based on their ability to set-up or break the burst zone
[2/7/2012 5:49:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: Oh really?
[2/7/2012 5:49:47 PM] GBizzle: yeah, why not? <_<
[2/7/2012 5:50:49 PM] GBizzle: ... let's see
[2/7/2012 5:51:29 PM] GBizzle: as long as your own burst zone ... is as strong as your opponents ability to break it
[2/7/2012 5:51:40 PM] GBizzle: the match-up is [potentially] not in the opponent's favor
[2/7/2012 5:52:14 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm just trying to get you to speak more haha
[2/7/2012 5:52:19 PM] GBizzle: lol
[2/7/2012 5:52:26 PM] GBizzle: It's really hypothetical
[2/7/2012 5:52:28 PM] Jaleel Turner: worked
[2/7/2012 5:52:35 PM] GBizzle: I haven't gone really deeply into it just yet
[2/7/2012 5:52:56 PM] GBizzle: but looking at characters ... I can see a lot of ends meet
[2/7/2012 5:53:12 PM] GBizzle: let's look at MK
[2/7/2012 5:53:27 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay
[2/7/2012 5:53:27 PM] GBizzle: his ability to break the opponent's burst zone ... is outstanding
[2/7/2012 5:54:01 PM] GBizzle: ... the burst zones of ... Fox, Falco, Olimar can stand against it
[2/7/2012 5:54:11 PM] GBizzle: potentially that of Snake if he plays on point
[2/7/2012 5:55:21 PM] GBizzle: Pikachu, Wolf and Diddy aren't quite there
[2/7/2012 5:55:25 PM] GBizzle: but somewat close to him
[2/7/2012 5:55:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: because mobility and other factors right?
[2/7/2012 5:55:52 PM] GBizzle: those are factors that are part of the overall entity we labeled as burst zone
[2/7/2012 5:56:13 PM] GBizzle: is it a big coincidence that these 7 characters are pretty much agreed to be MKs most difficult match-ups?
[2/7/2012 5:56:54 PM] Jaleel Turner: dont think so
[2/7/2012 5:56:56 PM] GBizzle: marth might be in that mix as well but I'd base that more on gimmicks tbh
[2/7/2012 5:57:25 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'd agree
[2/7/2012 5:58:00 PM] GBizzle: ICs is goes into a different extreme
[2/7/2012 5:58:53 PM] GBizzle: it's probably the character that lies away the furthest from this concept
[2/7/2012 5:58:56 PM] GBizzle: for obvious reasons
[2/7/2012 5:59:29 PM] GBizzle: it seems neither being able to set up ... nor breaking a zone has an actual impact of the match-up
[2/7/2012 5:59:34 PM] GBizzle: or a lot less than any other
[2/7/2012 6:00:56 PM] GBizzle: im not sure how it applies here
[2/7/2012 6:01:02 PM] Jaleel Turner: 2 characters are akward
[2/7/2012 6:01:20 PM] GBizzle: but it's probably necessary to be able to break a zoning game REALLY well to beat them
[2/7/2012 6:01:34 PM] GBizzle: but atm I can't even tell who does beat them at all
[2/7/2012 6:01:55 PM] GBizzle: there seems to be no logical correlation between the hierarchy of how good characters are
[2/7/2012 6:02:04 PM] GBizzle: and how difficult a match-up is
[2/7/2012 6:02:10 PM] Jaleel Turner: Yeah
[2/7/2012 6:02:22 PM] GBizzle: usually that's not the case
[2/7/2012 6:02:31 PM] GBizzle: the better a character the more likely he is to be a tough match-up
[2/7/2012 6:02:48 PM] GBizzle: only ICs seem to be ... abnormal within that pattern
[2/7/2012 6:03:34 PM] GBizzle: they have a harder time with Peach than with ... like Diddy Kong
[2/7/2012 6:03:44 PM] GBizzle: at least atm I'd say so
[2/7/2012 6:04:01 PM] Jaleel Turner: Character attributes?
[2/7/2012 6:04:48 PM] GBizzle: i think their ability to 0 death any character ... is simply a more effective way to approach a match-up
[2/7/2012 6:05:37 PM] GBizzle: than the "traditional" or "standard" concept we've just established to be the main basis for most characters
[2/7/2012 6:05:57 PM] GBizzle: there are different concepts to play it
[2/7/2012 6:06:04 PM] GBizzle: but ICs are the only ones that actually benefit from it
[2/7/2012 6:06:19 PM] Jaleel Turner: I think this brings me to another tagent
[2/7/2012 6:06:46 PM] Jaleel Turner: while America has been focusing on who camp the best and make solid reads every now and then
[2/7/2012 6:07:03 PM] Jaleel Turner: while Japan has been focused on burst spacing
[2/7/2012 6:07:18 PM] GBizzle: hmmm
[2/7/2012 6:07:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: adapting came with their single elim. ruleset
[2/7/2012 6:07:23 PM] GBizzle: the thing is
[2/7/2012 6:07:33 PM] GBizzle: focusing on burst spacing = camping the best
[2/7/2012 6:07:44 PM] GBizzle: america ... has never been that good at camping all in all
[2/7/2012 6:08:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: honestly I think most americans camp mindlessly
[2/7/2012 6:08:07 PM] GBizzle: somebody mentione that at the apex commentary
[2/7/2012 6:08:18 PM] GBizzle: I think it was when Nietono played ADHD
[2/7/2012 6:08:22 PM] GBizzle: that vid is on youtube
[2/7/2012 6:08:41 PM] GBizzle: and somebody mentions how japan just camps "differently"
[2/7/2012 6:08:47 PM] GBizzle: mindlessly is a good word to put it
[2/7/2012 6:08:58 PM] GBizzle: or it's just that japan focus on the "burst zone" more
[2/7/2012 6:09:22 PM] GBizzle: and that's when choosing options becomes more effective, maybe more consistent or logical
[2/7/2012 6:09:38 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah
[2/7/2012 6:09:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: as I've started implementing this into my game
[2/7/2012 6:10:03 PM] Jaleel Turner: reads, and baiting and a lot other fundementals became suddenly easier
[2/7/2012 6:10:28 PM] GBizzle: interestingly ... some japanese player - I believe suinoko - made a blog about that on aib
[2/7/2012 6:10:55 PM] Jaleel Turner: Wow, I wish would could find that
[2/7/2012 6:11:19 PM] GBizzle: it's nothing groundbreaking lol
[2/7/2012 6:11:26 PM] GBizzle: just some ... confirmation
[2/7/2012 6:11:29 PM] Jaleel Turner: I just want to read
[2/7/2012 6:11:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: XD
[2/7/2012 6:11:47 PM] GBizzle: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=131846
[2/7/2012 6:11:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: I learn the best by hybrid techniques
[2/7/2012 6:11:50 PM] GBizzle: that's it
[2/7/2012 6:11:50 PM] Jaleel Turner: oh
[2/7/2012 6:11:54 PM] Jaleel Turner: cool
[2/7/2012 6:11:57 PM] Jaleel Turner: and quick
[2/7/2012 6:11:59 PM] Jaleel Turner: LOL
[2/7/2012 6:12:04 PM] GBizzle: he calls it "measure" and "countermeasure"
[2/7/2012 6:12:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: I see
[2/7/2012 6:13:16 PM] GBizzle: i think that + delta cod's thread are really a good foundation for some advancements
[2/7/2012 6:13:45 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's why I'm taking such a big investiment into it
[2/7/2012 6:13:52 PM] Jaleel Turner: and I wish others would too actually
[2/7/2012 6:13:58 PM] Jaleel Turner: instead of viewing it
[2/7/2012 6:14:06 PM] Jaleel Turner: I mean look at the view to post ratio
[2/7/2012 6:14:19 PM] Jaleel Turner: 600+ views but only 2 pages worth of post
[2/7/2012 6:14:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's complete BS
[2/7/2012 6:14:33 PM] GBizzle: .... only 10x times as much views as posts
[2/7/2012 6:14:46 PM] GBizzle: other have 20x or more
[2/7/2012 6:15:41 PM] Jaleel Turner: Still
[2/7/2012 6:15:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: I just think it shouldn't die
[2/7/2012 6:15:53 PM] GBizzle: true
[2/7/2012 6:15:59 PM] Jaleel Turner: so I'm trying my hardest to keep it alive
[2/7/2012 6:16:07 PM] GBizzle: why is this wasted on a place as obscure and pathetic as the yoshi board anyway?
[2/7/2012 6:16:16 PM] Jaleel Turner: Idk
[2/7/2012 6:16:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's why I pushed for the move!
[2/7/2012 6:16:41 PM] Jaleel Turner: but now that I think about it, I don't want people like Doc King walking in
[2/7/2012 6:16:52 PM] GBizzle: lol
[2/7/2012 6:16:55 PM] Jaleel Turner: because the thread will drop
[2/7/2012 6:17:04 PM] GBizzle: can't people be topic banned? XD
[2/7/2012 6:17:17 PM] Jaleel Turner: because he will change it to D3 and you know the routine
[2/7/2012 6:17:18 PM] Jaleel Turner: and yeah
[2/7/2012 6:17:25 PM] Jaleel Turner: but his stupidity isn't bannable
[2/7/2012 6:17:28 PM] Jaleel Turner: :/
[2/7/2012 6:17:52 PM] GBizzle: people in that thread focus too much on dash attack XD
[2/7/2012 6:17:59 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah
[2/7/2012 6:18:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: I did too day 1
[2/7/2012 6:18:10 PM] Jaleel Turner: not anymore
[2/7/2012 6:18:17 PM] GBizzle: most of them didn't understand the message XD
[2/7/2012 6:18:24 PM] GBizzle: or ... what lies beyond that message
[2/7/2012 6:18:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: yep, yep
[2/7/2012 6:18:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: I don't know if Delta even knows
[2/7/2012 6:18:51 PM] GBizzle: he might learn
[2/7/2012 6:18:58 PM] GBizzle: idk how intelligent a person he is
[2/7/2012 6:19:02 PM] Jaleel Turner: most likely
[2/7/2012 6:19:09 PM] Jaleel Turner: if the move happens
[2/7/2012 6:19:10 PM] GBizzle: be he has realized the first step
[2/7/2012 6:19:13 PM] Jaleel Turner: I want it to be good
[2/7/2012 6:19:20 PM] GBizzle: so ... the second should follow in due time
[2/7/2012 6:19:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: not Doc King ruined
[2/7/2012 6:19:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: I would hope so
[2/7/2012 6:22:50 PM] Jaleel Turner: continue though
[2/7/2012 6:23:04 PM] GBizzle: sorry I just read through the thread
[2/7/2012 6:23:20 PM] GBizzle: it's a scratch on the surfact I guess XD
[2/7/2012 6:23:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: mhm!
[2/7/2012 6:23:45 PM] GBizzle: if I were somebody ...
[2/7/2012 6:23:58 PM] GBizzle: and if I weren't a lazy SOB I might post something about this
[2/7/2012 6:24:10 PM] GBizzle: but I will try to improve upon this
[2/7/2012 6:24:14 PM] Jaleel Turner: you are somebody
[2/7/2012 6:24:14 PM] GBizzle: and gain first-hand experience
[2/7/2012 6:24:18 PM] GBizzle: not yet
[2/7/2012 6:24:19 PM] Jaleel Turner: but idk about the lazy part
[2/7/2012 6:24:29 PM] Jaleel Turner: oh you mean high level player?
[2/7/2012 6:24:40 PM] GBizzle: yeah
[2/7/2012 6:24:45 PM] GBizzle: give me a little more time
[2/7/2012 6:24:47 PM] GBizzle: I'll be there soon :3
[2/7/2012 6:24:57 PM] Jaleel Turner: Aight
[2/7/2012 6:25:06 PM] Jaleel Turner: and I'll reach mid-level
[2/7/2012 6:25:13 PM] Jaleel Turner: hopefully high-mid level
[2/7/2012 6:25:14 PM] Jaleel Turner: :D[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Delta-cod]

Interesting conversation. I should probably get in touch with Gheb to talk about this more and find out what he means about certain things.

I WILL edit this thread and make a request before the night is up. Hold me to that. I'd love to see discussion on this (although Doc King, lollllllll).

But yeah, Gheb is right. This really is just the surface. This should be a general concept. There's so much to explore with it, but so many people don't understand this basic thing. And that's why we all suck.

 

[Scatz]

Footsies =/= Burst option. Burst options are just a piece of footsies lol.

 

[Conviction]

Interesting conversation. I should probably get in touch with Gheb to talk about this more and find out what he means about certain things.

I WILL edit this thread and make a request before the night is up. Hold me to that. I'd love to see discussion on this (although Doc King, lollllllll).

But yeah, Gheb is right. This really is just the surface. This should be a general concept. There's so much to explore with it, but so many people don't understand this basic thing. And that's why we all suck.

Please don't let Doc King make it the DDD spacing thread or some random tangent

Soon, we should find ways general ways to practice it. Besides human opponents, wifi sucks for this in particular or at least bad connections do because of it's precision it entails. So I went to ask Orion for some help and the way he practices it since he doesn't have people 24/7to play, he sets a lvl 3 MK and walks in and out of the MK's burst range, and he uses this train his reaction time for when the MK commits to a tilt he punishes. Same with when the MK pushes into Orion's range he will punish it. That's the main focus during the whole time.

Overall it teaches you, your burst zone, basic concept of an opponents burst zone, and when you want to get a read, you'll naturally be ready to place yourself into your burst zone or will already be in your burst zone. Thus, making the read a lot easier.

Nonetheless I've picked this up now too LOL

Footsies =/= Burst option. Burst options are just a piece of footsies lol.

My bad. Explain to me next tourney we are at together

 

[Delta-cod]

That's an interesting way of practicing. I know for sure that there are good ways to train using the CPUs, you just gotta know what to do. That's one of them.

Footsies sort of entails Burst Option/Spacing because footsies are what occur at a neutral state. They're basically the term used to described what you do at neutral to trick your opponent into doing something punishable. Lots of safe pokes/baits.

Burst Options are a part of that, but not everything. When you space according to Burst Range, you're usually losing a lot of your other poking options. For example, as Yoshi (disregarding DR), when I space at max Burst Range (Dash Grab Spacing), I lose access to a lot of pokes, such as my tilts, potentially my jab, etc. Burst Range is just a generally safe range of playing footsies, but it's not the end all be all. It's VERY important at neutral, and it is very powerful, but playing only to Burst Range isn't always the best idea. Just like always being perfectly safe and camping isn't always the best idea. The safest, sure, but not the best. You miss out on opportunities that way.

 

[Sarix]

Here's a question I have while reading this great discussion: How do Zair attacks (i.e. Samus & Link) play into Burst Range/Option Spacing if it's applicable to them? Even though technically they are not approach options like other attacks with a defined Burst Range they do play large roles in spacing.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'd tie Zairs like that into projectile/camping game. While they're not necessarily used as an approaching burst options (because they're usually too slow/obvious), they mess with your opponent's spacing due to their range/safety. They basically make it so your opponent has to commit to something while spacing, either an approach or a defensive option (usually shield).

Like, you can't really space optimally against a Zair because they're not usually punishable when spaced/retreated. They usually cause a loss in stage control, but they're typically AMAZING pokes, which is something Burst Spacing/Options don't do. They don't poke, they're just spacing/part of footsies. So are pokes. A Burst Option is either a read or a punish, not a poke. You'll typically get punished for messing up a Burst Option, since it's pretty commital. A poke, not so much.

Uh, I feel like I didn't define anything too well there, but I don't really know what else to say at the moment. Please ask for further questions on what I just said to help me focus my thoughts. @_@

 

[allshort17]

Thanks for the write up. It's very insightful and written well. You should put it in the competitive Brawl section.

Please don't let Doc King make it the DDD spacing thread or some random tangent

I will be taking his place for now. But seriously, this as inspired me to make a whole section in my notes on burst ranges. However, I have 5 categories for burst ranges.

*Both at neutral
*Opponent in the air and me at neutral
*Me in the air and opponent at neutral
*Opponent shielding and me at neutral
*Opponent on ledge and me at neutral.

Some questions I have:
*Is that too much to worry about or are there any situations I should add?
*Characters with bad burst ranges are generally characters that have bad horizontal mobility, correct? Because I feel since I play Dedede (here you go Iblis), even though he has a very long reaching tilt, ftilt, his burst range is still pretty bad because he can't go horizontally well.

 

[Sarix]

Okay thanks Delta, I figured Zairs didn't really count as part of Burst Range because they are safe and poke extremely well like you said, but I thought I would ask anyway.

Hopefully as Burst Spacing becomes more widespread topics like how projectile pressure affects Burst Spacing will become more discussed. The reason I say that is because I was practicing as Samus and applying her projectiles/Zair with Burst Spacing by conditioning hasty reactions and approaches similar to the Fox in Iblis's post and found it made her Utilt an interesting Burst Option that lead into a few combos.

Of course maybe I have the wrong idea but that's my input.

 

[Conviction]

Here's a question I have while reading this great discussion: How do Zair attacks (i.e. Samus & Link) play into Burst Range/Option Spacing if it's applicable to them? Even though technically they are not approach options like other attacks with a defined Burst Range they do play large roles in spacing.

Zairs would be good to punish people who think you are giving away stage control. Simply put, they can punish those who are trying to close space.


Easier done on dashing opponents opposed to walking due to the options given during either dashing or walking.

Thanks for the write up. It's very insightful and written well. You should put it in the competitive Brawl section.



I will be taking his place for now. But seriously, this as inspired me to make a whole section in my notes on burst ranges. However, I have 5 categories for burst ranges.

*Both at neutral
*Opponent in the air and me at neutral
*Me in the air and opponent at neutral
*Opponent shielding and me at neutral
*Opponent on ledge and me at neutral.

Some questions I have:
*Is that too much to worry about or are there any situations I should add?
*Characters with bad burst ranges are generally characters that have bad horizontal mobility, correct? Because I feel since I play Dedede (here you go Iblis), even though he has a very long reaching tilt, ftilt, his burst range is still pretty bad because he can't go horizontally well.

Honestly since it's DDD, I think this concept would help his defensive game. I don't see how he would close space effectively. Maybe you could when characters are airborne.

Note to everyone: Make sure to always punish opponents when they give away some stage. This does not mean with hitting them, this can simply mean closing the space. This limits the options they have and room to move, forcing them to commit eventually.

Hopefully as Burst Spacing becomes more widespread topics like how projectile pressure affects Burst Spacing will become more discussed. The reason I say that is because I was practicing as Samus and applying her projectiles/Zair with Burst Spacing by conditioning hasty reactions and approaches similar to the Fox in Iblis's post and found it made her Utilt an interesting Burst Option that lead into a few combos.

Of course maybe I have the wrong idea but that's my input.

I wish I could help, but I don't understand Samus at all

 

[Delta-cod]

I will be taking his place for now. But seriously, this as inspired me to make a whole section in my notes on burst ranges. However, I have 5 categories for burst ranges.

*Both at neutral
*Opponent in the air and me at neutral
*Me in the air and opponent at neutral
*Opponent shielding and me at neutral
*Opponent on ledge and me at neutral.

Some questions I have:
*Is that too much to worry about or are there any situations I should add?

Well, I feel like Burst Spacing is a largely neutral concept. If I'm understanding correctly, you mean that the opponent is in the air above you/vice versa? If so, that's not really a true neutral, and different "rules" are applied, those of juggling/following momentum. What I'm referring to in the OP is spacing/baiting at neutral, in terms of footsies.

If the opponent voluntarily jumped into the air at neutral to use an aerial/bait something, then Burst Range still applies, they just have a different set of options.

If you just mean the opponent is shielding, then the state of the game isn't necessarily out of neutral. You don't have a distinct advantage, although it's important to note that characters reduce their Burst Range(typically) and options(definitely) when shielding. This allows you to close space to add pressure, which is why overuse of shield isn't really a great thing.

When the opponent is on the ledge, the state of the game is most certainly not neutral. There's a clear advantage/disadvantage here, with the character on the ledge being disadvantaged (supposedly, assuming LGL). This allows you to add additional pressure because the opponent has severely reduced options and is in a bad spot.

However, despite all this, the idea of spacing still applies. You want to be able to deal with your opponent's quickest, farthest ranged option. On the ledge, quick, ranged options are pretty rare, and characters usually have poor options in coming up from the ledge. In fact, most options can be beat by shielding and then punishing a landing/dodge/whatever if necessary.

It just comes down to being aware of options, really.

*Characters with bad burst ranges are generally characters that have bad horizontal mobility, correct? Because I feel since I play Dedede (here you go Iblis), even though he has a very long reaching tilt, ftilt, his burst range is still pretty bad because he can't go horizontally well.

This is typically true, although DDD might have a sort of exception in that his Ftilt is pretty quick (I think so, anyways), and it has a lot of range. Burst Options and pokes aren't mutually exclusive, and I feel like DDD's ftilt might be one of the options that mixes the two. Even thought Ftilt might not seem like an amazingly rewarding hit to land, it pops your opponent up (changes his set of options to an aerial set) and breaks his spacing, which allows you to add more pressure.

Okay thanks Delta, I figured Zairs didn't really count as part of Burst Range because they are safe and poke extremely well like you said, but I thought I would ask anyway.

Well, everything is related. It might not exactly be used to enhance your own Burst Range, but it can definitely be used to limit/break your opponent's, which is important.

Hopefully as Burst Spacing becomes more widespread topics like how projectile pressure affects Burst Spacing will become more discussed. The reason I say that is because I was practicing as Samus and applying her projectiles/Zair with Burst Spacing by conditioning hasty reactions and approaches similar to the Fox in Iblis's post and found it made her Utilt an interesting Burst Option that lead into a few combos.

Of course maybe I have the wrong idea but that's my input.

Nope, it seems like you're on a good course. I won't claim to be the expert on all things like this, but it looks like you're using this concept to enhance your baiting game at neutral, which is good.