Customs don't exist... Now what the heck do we do with miis?

[Foie]

I'd like to pose a hypothetical situation and discuss the ensuing ramifications of such a hypothetical. Please, for the sake of argument, adhere to the hypothetical if at all possible

Assume that customs don't exist in this game. Equipment doesn't exist. The custom character menu doesn't exist.

This leaves all characters with just their single moveset, exactly like the DLC characters. No such thing as 1111, all the characters just have their moves and that's it.

Now throw in Mii characters as they stand with the ability to adjust their size and specials. This makes them the only characters with the ability to adjust their moveset, and there isn't even a "customs" switch. Miis are entirely special in this regard.

How as a community would we deal with this? Should we allow them to be used? What restrictions, if any, would be warranted and why?

 

[Tycon]

This is a hot topic atm with plenty of threads atm. Miis themselves exist on a fine lime between custom characters and baseline characters. I think banning them out right is utterly short sighted and arbitrarily removes 3 potential characters from the Meta. GimR made a video on this exact idea recently shown here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkkX3P0I5sY as well as Esam fighting for Mii rights (to a single golden set degree).

As long as the game rules are set to custom off limiting all those characters that can't use customs since they are considered customs, the fact that Miis are special exclusions of this rule and their main gimmick ( much like ryus multiple rule gimmick, clouds charge gimmick) being they get custom like moves, except they aren't customs and more of optional specials. Much like setting the items option off so they cannot spawn and will not be an option for most characters except those with kits that utilize items, customs off works for most except for a few (Miis) that can utilize optional specials though optional specials not considered customs. They each vary vastly from each other and are numbers arbitrarily.

While I do agree with the flexibility of specials I can see for tournament play a compromise being a specific agreed upon good set for practice and logistics, however 1111 is not a viable answer for this and is arbitrarily discriminatory offer way less than a Mii compromise.

While having a golden size would be great, it's most fair and quicker / easier to just use stock guest Mii making them as if they were actual characters. Blue guest Mii to me is Sword Fighter, Red guest Mii is Brawler and Pink guest Mii is Gunner.

 

[wizrad]

Before Evo, Miis were mostly let be. They could use whatever moves they wanted. I think that's how it would still be if it weren't for customs.

 

[Foie]

Aside from logistical concerns, what is the rational for standard size being "most fair"? Don't principals of competitive gaming say a character is innocent until proven broken?

Heck, many Brawl tournaments allowed metaknight and wobbling. Miis come nowhere close to harming the metagame like that.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Aside from logistical concerns, what is the rational for standard size being "most fair"? Don't principals of competitive gaming say a character is innocent until proven broken?

Heck, many Brawl tournaments allowed metaknight and wobbling. Miis come nowhere close to harming the metagame like that.

Non-standard size requires making use of software outside of the game itself, which should not be required imo.

 

[digiholic]

Aside from logistical concerns, what is the rational for standard size being "most fair"? Don't principals of competitive gaming say a character is innocent until proven broken?

Heck, many Brawl tournaments allowed metaknight and wobbling. Miis come nowhere close to harming the metagame like that.

I feel like the sizes aren't a balance issue, but a time constraint issue. Making a moveset is 30 seconds, making a size is 3 minutes.

 

[Foie]

Non-standard size requires making use of software outside of the game itself, which should not be required imo.

According to this logic DLC characters should not be allowed because it requires going into the Nintendo Store and downloading them.

I feel like the sizes aren't a balance issue, but a time constraint issue. Making a moveset is 30 seconds, making a size is 3 minutes.

This is a logistical concern that can be solved fairly easily. Requiring setups to have the most viable sizes (really it's only 2, tiny and .25/0) pre-loaded before the tourney starts. Alternatively a 3DS can be used to transfer a mii over.

The best argument against this is that "there are then a near limitless amount of different mii characters in the game, making precise matchup knowledge impossible/unrealistic to learn." I would argue that there is no such thing as precise matchup knowledge, with the scaling rage system creating an equally impossible to learn plurality of knockback range based on small health difference while factoring in move staleness, differing blast zones, and character weights.

If there are still concerns, the would likely be unwarranted and theoretical at best. Even still, a compromise can be made to create 1 alternate size per Mii type, a "golden size" if you will. This will minimize the mii character restrictions while eliminating the concerns of limitless unique matchups. Pre-load this size on Wiis and wa-laa, it also eliminates logistical and time concerns altogether.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

This is a logistical concern that can be solved fairly easily. Requiring setups to have the most viable sizes (really it's only 2, tiny and .25/0) pre-loaded before the tourney starts. Alternatively a 3DS can be used to transfer a mii over.

And how would a TO enforce this? This might be surprising to you, but most tournaments aren't EVO. Local tournaments don't have huge companies providing them with setups, they ask for attendees to bring setups and then waive the venue fee for them. How would a TO ensure that every setup has the proper sized Miis? If he/she asks someone and they say that they don't have the proper sized Miis, what's the TO going to do, not accept the setup? Most of the time, TOs will need every setup that they can get; they can't afford to refuse setups. And this means wasted time during the tournament making Miis on the setups that don't have them.

 

[DanGR]

And how would a TO enforce this? This might be surprising to you, but most tournaments aren't EVO. Local tournaments don't have huge companies providing them with setups, they ask for attendees to bring setups and then waive the venue fee for them. How would a TO ensure that every setup has the proper sized Miis? If he/she asks someone and they say that they don't have the proper sized Miis, what's the TO going to do, not accept the setup? Most of the time, TOs will need every setup that they can get; they can't afford to refuse setups. And this means wasted time during the tournament making Miis on the setups that don't have them.

"Hi I'm signing up for Smash4 singles and doubles. I brought a full setup and tv with all of the DLC characters. I get my venue fee waived, right?"

"Do you have the 0/0 and 25/0 Mii sizes on your Wii?"

"No."

"Well go ahead and make them before the tournament starts and then I'll waive the venue fee."

"Alright, cool. : )"

 

[T0MMY]

I feel like the sizes aren't a balance issue, but a time constraint issue. Making a moveset is 30 seconds, making a size is 3 minutes.

3DS upload. It takes less time than using Mii Maker, which should not be allowed, imo. Taking game offline should be against rules to ensure a properly run event. And the argument that out-of-game software means 3DS users shouldn't be allowed an upload would logically entail a 3DS couldn't be used as a controller, nor should DLC characters be allowed due to having to use the eShop software, which is out-of-game software. Facts are facts, and logic is logic, so it ultimately comes to a decision if the compelling free Mii are valuable enough to be used, and a point could be made that Guest Mii (50/50 height/weight) is more valuable for competition and logistics.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Honestly, I've seen a lot of TOs decline from Wii Us for not having DLCs.
And then they accept it but run into problems because they didn't have every stage unlocked.

There are just so many logistics issues that are way more difficult to solve than Miis (which are solved with one single master 3DS to transfer legal sets).