Custom Specials: Misconceptions and Publicizing

[John12346]

tl;dr - Many people who are against custom moves gloss over them because they are either misinformed, see it as jank for the wrong reasons, or are blindly following Apex. Is there a way to mass-inform the community at large? TOs also seriously need to step up and do something OTHER than sitting idly by because they affect the community the most by ignoring custom moves without considering/being aware of all of the arguments for/against it.

A lot of people have made many a discovery about Custom Special moves, allowing us to attain a much deeper understanding of how they work, both in game and out of game. We also understand the kinds of impacts they can have on the tournament scene. The more informed people have already fallen on to their respective sides of the debate, and the points of contention sound pretty much like this:

Custom Specials should be used because:
- they add an incredible amount of competitive depth into the game and do a great job of balancing out the game.
- they aren't that hard to unlock/you only need one 3DS with all the moves and you're good to go.
- none of them have really shown themselves to be broken beyond comprehension.
- they do not add a significant amount of time to tournaments.

Custom Specials should not be used because:
- they are janky things that take away our fundamental understandings of characters, similar to items, equipment, weird stages, etc.
- they are hard to unlock.
- some of them are super broken.
- they add a significant amount of time to tournaments.

And a lot of these points contradict each other, but that's all fine and good. That's how you debate, after all. What I'm worried about, though, are the existence of the following people:
- people who know absolutely know nothing about Custom Specials.
- people who do not run Custom Specials in tourney for no reason at all.
- people who do not run Custom Specials for the above reasons, but are misinformed.

I have this unsettling suspicion that a lot of people who do not use Custom Specials are not fully aware of what they can offer to the game, competitively. As a result, either due to lack of understanding, seeing them in a similar vein to items, or both, the potential these moves have seem to be glossed over to a rather large extent. The most problematic of these variants are those who see a strong custom move in use, and then decide, "Nope, this shouldn't be allowed in tournaments ever," without any further thought on the matter.

I'd say the second most bothersome would be, "Apex has Custom Specials off so screw it."

I guess the main thing I'm getting at is that I'm a tad frustrated because there appears to be a large number of people who dismiss Custom Specials without having a full understanding of what they're all about. Simply put, because they resemble items to a degree, and Apex isn't using them this year, AND it's just so much easier to leave them off, a large portion of the community seriously isn't giving it a fair shake. And that's kind of obnoxious, because they are brimming with such potential to bring this game to the next level.

Take note: If you fully understand what Custom Specials can bring to the competitive scene and still don't want to have them in tournaments, that's fine by me, as long as you're fully informed.

Of course, I'm not even sure if it's the community at fault here on the charge of not being well informed on the subject matter. According to two already established polls, this one and this one, a good 80 to 90 percent of responses came out in total favor of Custom Specials. Even if we extrapolate down to include conservatives who aren't exactly fans of taking polls, it is almost impossible that less than 2/3 of the community would like to see Custom Specials legal. Then, on the other end of the spectrum, we have Amazing Ampharos' shot at making Custom Specials very accessible to tournament scenes, which has also been quite well received.

We have all of this going for Custom Specials, and yet we don't see very many tournaments running them. I can't help but think that TOs, also following either an uninformed or Apex-biased state of mind may be stifling these processes as well. They seriously need to step up and make a change, at least by going the extra mile to understand all of the intricacies of Custom Specials, or at the very least polling their darn community about how they'd like to see their rulesets run.

I just want more people to understand, but I'm not sure how to do that.

I feel like this was more of a rant than a topic, but this is definitely a pretty big issue. Thoughts?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's a publicity issue, mostly. I think you alluded to this. But custom moves simply aren't getting a lot of exposure. They aren't "hype" to most people. Therefore most people don't care about them. (I say "most" possibly wrongly here. You get what I mean.)

I think if someone could put together a playlist of sorts that showcases how custom moves change the game for the better, we'd get more people on board with the idea. Here's a Palutena vs. Lucario set. (Then again, someone replied to it with "Pfft they both try so hard, especially the Palutena. Lol "look at me and my unnecessary jumping around like a fool!" They play the game like it's Project M and trying to make it look better than it actually is." There's just no pleasing some people I guess.)

 

[Raijinken]

If it's a matter of the moves not being "hype" to people, that's probably because they're busy entering tournaments as characters who don't benefit well from them. Sheik, Diddy, and the like really don't have much to gain, since they've already got their best custom moves set on by default. Whereas people who play Palutena, Samus, Doc, and the like have a far greater appreciation for the versatility (and indeed, viability) that comes from having better custom options.

I'd rather TOs stop just copying Apex, but I'm not a TO so I guess my opinion carries little weight. But I'd be far more inclined to enter local tournaments if they had customs legal.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If it's a matter of the moves not being "hype" to people, that's probably because they're busy entering tournaments as characters who don't benefit well from them. Sheik, Diddy, and the like really don't have much to gain, since they've already got their best custom moves set on by default. Whereas people who play Palutena, Samus, Doc, and the like have a far greater appreciation for the versatility (and indeed, viability) that comes from having better custom options.

I'd rather TOs stop just copying Apex, but I'm not a TO so I guess my opinion carries little weight. But I'd be far more inclined to enter local tournaments if they had customs legal.

You're probably right. One of the most common arguments against customs I see is that some characters with really good customs might then become completely OP. The irony is that the exact same argument can be turned around to say characters with really good defaults might be OP.

 

[Raijinken]

You're probably right. One of the most common arguments against customs I see is that some characters with really good customs might then become completely OP. The irony is that the exact same argument can be turned around to say characters with really good defaults might be OP.

Thing is, with the exception of Diddy, the "OP" characters are generally built around normals, not specials, at least so far (nothing like Melee's Shine, for instance). But when you consider things like Dense Charge Shot or DK's superarmored UpB with the wind (can't remember the name), they give characters a few extra tricks that they need, when otherwise they're pretty lackluster. Palutena might be the only one really dependent on her specials (and that just because Lightweight and Superspeed compliment her normals so dang well), and given how much it takes to be good with lightweight and superspeed, I'd hardly say those even let her approach OP. They change her playstyle completely, though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Thing is, with the exception of Diddy, the "OP" characters are generally built around normals, not specials, at least so far (nothing like Melee's Shine, for instance). But when you consider things like Dense Charge Shot or DK's superarmored UpB with the wind (can't remember the name), they give characters a few extra tricks that they need, when otherwise they're pretty lackluster. Palutena might be the only one really dependent on her specials (and that just because Lightweight and Superspeed compliment her normals so dang well), and given how much it takes to be good with lightweight and superspeed, I'd hardly say those even let her approach OP. They change her playstyle completely, though.

Eh, while it's true that there aren't any specials that truly dominate like Melee shine, we still have things like Shiek's needles, Diddy's banana, Sonic's spin dash, Pikachu's thunder jolt and quick attack, and so forth that are still very powerful moves in their own right.

Mostly an observation, I think we're basically in agreement.

 

[T0MMY]

tl;dr - Many people who are against custom moves gloss over them because they are either misinformed, see it as jank for the wrong reasons, or are blindly following Apex. Is there a way to mass-inform the community at large?
I just want more people to understand, but I'm not sure how to do that.

I'll help out with logic and reasoning and you can get some more sources to add to what I post here and see where you can take it.
The TL;DR you provided is a weak approach because burdening an argument with trying to disprove something is a difficult position and not the strongest approach - even if successful then an alternative reason will just be substituted (and it could be even "stupider" of a reason) which means you would have to disprove that as well; et cetera, ad ridiculum.
Additionally the pigeonholing of the contrary position is weak - "many" people doesn't mean important people who make reasonable conclusions. The way your statement can be interpreted is that there may be stronger arguments than what yours is.
I have a solution for you. Basically, try not to just "rant" as you describe it. Think about your approach in logic like you would an approach in Smash - you'll want a stronger position and more priority than what your opponent can sling back at you. If you are speaking to scrubs then you are spot on with the rants and weak positioning debates, but you posted this in the competitive discussion boards so what you need to do is find a solid foundation of competitive principles that every competitive player should agree with and then let the foundation do the work for you.

Finally I'll take a look at your path of reasoning and let you know how strong it is.

Custom Specials should be used because:
- they add an incredible amount of competitive depth into the game and do a great job of balancing out the game.
- they aren't that hard to unlock/you only need one 3DS with all the moves and you're good to go.
- none of them have really shown themselves to be broken beyond comprehension.
- they do not add a significant amount of time to tournaments.

1) Additional depth is not a requirement nor basis for competition. As an example, Rock Paper Scissors is competitively viable and attempts at adding in a fourth element distorts strategies with unnecessary complications... yet it provides more "depth". This illustrates the distinct difference between depth and competitive values.
2) Competitive rules are not subject to opinion. Competitive rulesets are standards which we measure ("rule") and set laws by. Opinion stands outside rulesets, so saying something subjective like how difficult/easy something is about the game really means nothing to rules and only serves to influence through rhetoric. Reality of the situation is that they still must be unlocked and a TO will not care how easy it is when they have a dozen other things they need to take care of. If they are looking for ease of tournament rules they will just turn Custom Fighters Off.
3) I don't think anyone is making the argument that they are broken and therefore should not be used because of that. There may exist valid arguments that would have them not used, but I think there is so much data that could potentially be "broken" people would rather have customization off for main tournaments and tested in side tournaments and when fully understood then bring it into a main event. This is both reasonable and, sadly, will be more accepted than a point of them not being broken, which nobody cares to argue.
4) Again, this isn't really the issue at hand. Anyone can argue this point, but it really won't be an issue. The stronger arguments will be the issue in what determines competitive rulesets and that is what is better to focus on. Although this point and the last point are good auxiliary points that can help support a pro-customs argument.

I feel like this was more of a rant than a topic, but this is definitely a pretty big issue. Thoughts?

I don't think it's that big of an issue. <= see how opinion really amounts to nothing? It's easily countered with a contrary position and we both just have to agree to disagree if neither side changes opinion and nothing progresses. This is why opinion has no swaying power ("weight") and should be avoided when forming argument.
Hope I helped, good luck.

 

[Raijinken]

2) Competitive rules are not subject to opinion. Competitive rulesets are standards which we measure ("rule") and set laws by. Opinion stands outside rulesets, so saying something subjective like how difficult/easy something is about the game really means nothing to rules and only serves to influence through rhetoric. Reality of the situation is that they still must be unlocked and a TO will not care how easy it is when they have a dozen other things they need to take care of. If they are looking for ease of tournament rules they will just turn Custom Fighters Off.

This is your only point I really disagree with. Competitive rules are almost entirely dictated by opinion. Sure, there's normally some reasoning behind things like stock vs time, or including time limits in stock matches, and so on. But despite these rules having wide support generally, that doesn't make them not founded on opinion or based on an enactment of a person's ideals (or opinions, if you will) about what makes the competition proper and fair in its ideal state. Look at any discussion about stage selection for a really good example. The general trend is that "conservative" stages are more competitively fair, but there exist people who are just as firmly convinced that hazard avoidance and utilization are skills just as worthy of being tested.

But the point here, regardless of opinions, is that there is evidence available that suggests Custom moves improve the balance of the game over-all. Unfortunately, most of this evidence is stuck in a state of anecdotality (I'm gonna pretend that's a word since it makes sense), with too little video and very little widespread support indicating validity. It thus boils down to an issue of logistics, which most TOs are evidently too busy or too lazy to accomodate, and I don't mean that in a necessarily derogatory way. TOs are certainly busy if they're running any sort of quality program, but the resources are certainly available for them to take a bit of extra time to set up at least the Custom Moveset Project or a similar implementation, and it boils again down to their opinion on whether or not enabling customs feasibly for the expected future is worth about hour of time per console after the initial 3DS version setup. It's a matter of setup cost like in any business. If they don't see it as profitable, they don't do it, and there isn't currently that much material showing validity.

 

[John12346]

Well, I would think the goal here isn't to talk about why customs should be utilized in tournament play; I feel like that's already been covered a great deal in other threads, to be honest. I'm not really taking an authoritative stance on whether custom moves should be used in or not in this topic because that's not exactly my focus. I mean, yes, I threw out some really rough arguments for both sides, and they were kind of lackluster, but I immediately followed it up with:

And a lot of these points contradict each other, but that's all fine and good. That's how you debate, after all. What I'm worried about, though, are the existence of the following people:
- people who know absolutely know nothing about Custom Specials.
- people who do not run Custom Specials in tourney for no reason at all.
- people who do not run Custom Specials for the above reasons, but are misinformed.

If anything, this is probably most central to what I'm getting at. It's perfectly fine if people want to oppose custom moves from being legal, because I can understand where that train of thought is coming from and it's always good to spark healthy debate. My main issue is with those who would dismiss them because it's entirely too easy to NOT use custom moves in competitive play, or legalize them in their tournaments. It's easier to run with reasoning like, "Oh, Apex left them off so I will too," or "This one move I saw is so broken and none of them should be allowed in tournaments," or "It takes too long to figure out how these stupid things work!" than it is to actually take a bit of time to gain a more thorough understanding of the process. And then when you have 50% or more of the regions not doing anything to rectify the situation it just kind of drags down the mood further...

And if years of Smashboards have taught me anything, it's that change in the Smash community is one of the most ridiculously hard ventures in the history of anything.

If any progress is to be made in helping to make customs legal, or at the very least get more people informed about all of these misconceptions, well... SOMETHING needs to be done, but I'm completely stuck on that. Finding a way to debunk the most common misconceptions in a timely way and then somehow getting that out to those who matter seems like one way. Finding a way to convince TOs to just poll their communities every so often may be another.

Short of a Backroom level event, which does not exist yet, I'm kind of stuck at this juncture.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I notice an awful lot of threads like this keep cropping up for stages and customs. It's almost like the will of the people is on this side or something.

I'm basically counting on people falling in love with custom moves as they actually use them. I believe a lot of regions are going to give them a far more fair shake post-APEX, and it's my hope that, once players get used to using them, they'll never want to go back. I mean, for a vast majority of characters, going back means using an inferior version of what you've been playing. Rosalina probably benefits less than most, but it's just a downer to play without Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit at this point. Who honestly finds the game more enjoyable and engaging using nerfed versions of all of the characters, nerfed versions that overall are less balanced than the full versions at that? Yeah, I'm pretty convinced unfamiliarity is our main enemy here; the more players get familiar with customs, the greater the demand for them will grow.

 

[T0MMY]

This is your only point I really disagree with. Competitive rules are almost entirely dictated by opinion. Sure, there's normally some reasoning behind things like stock vs time, or including time limits in stock matches, and so on. But despite these rules having wide support generally, that doesn't make them not founded on opinion or based on an enactment of a person's ideals (or opinions, if you will) about what makes the competition proper and fair in its ideal state. Look at any discussion about stage selection for a really good example. The general trend is that "conservative" stages are more competitively fair, but there exist people who are just as firmly convinced that hazard avoidance and utilization are skills just as worthy of being tested.

Ah, I see if you are drawing the line of a fundamental agreement of what constitutes "competition" vs "not competition" then I would agree with you on this.
But perhaps I can clarify by noting when I used "opinion" it is along the line of saying "mere opinion" vs fundamentals. I kind of want to stay away from fundamental constituents unless speaking specifically about principles and how those principles can be rejected based on something that can be described as "opinion" because I'd rather refer to that as belief.

I tend to be platonic when it comes to epistomology and think that knowledge is belief on something which is true. But to get into what would be a tautology (in terms of competition) is, I think, beyond the scope of this thread and I'd better vest that interest in a treatise to give a full, uninterrupted account to keep the path of reasoning in line.
Speaking of treatises... I still wonder about the direct use of fallacy when I was writing "Competitive Philosophy for Super Smash Bros."... it was in regards to exactly with what you disagree with! Which is why I like how you disagreed with me on that specifically.

In short, I admire that you challenged me on the matter of opinion, but for sake of simplicity I'd rather stay grounded to the belief that rules should not be based (merely) upon opinion. Because if we are agreeing to change fundamentals based merely on opinion then there's little point in having any universal fundamentals from which any greater concepts of competition can be built and communicated.
I'll stick to principles being greater authority than opinion and if anyone wants to argue against the principles specifically I'd like to entertain that sometime :^)

But the point here, regardless of opinions, is that there is evidence available that suggests Custom moves improve the balance of the game over-all. Unfortunately, most of this evidence is stuck in a state of anecdotality (I'm gonna pretend that's a word since it makes sense), with too little video and very little widespread support indicating validity.

The problem with that is if we err to opinion of "improve" which is to say equivalent to "better" which is reduced to an opinion, then we've essentially challenged Competitive Principles. Anyone who changes the standard may thus expect that anyone else may change the standard in a similar whimsy when meeting in competition.
The real-life results of this opinion over principle scenario would likely reduce to a chaotic state of opinion vs opinion (and neither one has swaying power, so we have endless debate rather than solid logical argument), which is anathema to forming rules of checks and balances to create a standard - at which point we really shouldn't be having a conversation, we should either work it out IRL or theorycraft battle in a war of attrition where one lacks the strength to continue in a fruitless battle over an empty victory

However, if the Competitive Arena is drawn in a clear-cut perimeter to show where the definition of the area of Competition lies, then stepping outside that area shows where we are not competing in a competitive form defined by the Competitive Standards.
Within this clearly defined framework, you could simply state that you wish to use Custom Fighters: On as a standard setting for competitions. And if I (and all other competitors) agree to the challenge issued forth then we have an agreement that sets the ground to stand on and battle it out as the agreed upon rules have defined. Competitively viable (for whatever reason we want, whether it be notions of "depth" or "neutrality" or whatever fluff that's usually thrown around).

That, I could agree with. And I really think it might be the point where you were headed and we can be happy to play it out and have some fun with it.

But that brings us to the next step...
That step which involves a larger audience.

If we enjoyed playing with our Custom Fighters and wanted to expand that to national events then we can pitch the idea to the TO's of the nationals.

• If they accept it, then great, mission accomplished.
• If they do not then the next viable option (complaining is not viable, so I'll skip that option) is to create our own event that utilizes Custom Fighters and offer it to the Free Market and see how well it does.

• If it is well received then it will be built to the next standard and nationals will adjust to imitate us (as free market dictates it should).
• But if it fails and nobody else wants it besides us then we should accept that you and I are truly the only ones that want to play by those rules and enjoy our games together for what it's worth.

It thus boils down to an issue of logistics

Yup, then there's logistics.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I would love to see someone here with an actual highly critical post arguing FOR having them banned.
At this point most, if not all, of the analyst people back here agree that Customs should be allowed.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

T0MMY arguing that depth doesn't matter. Color me shocked. It was a bad argument 4 years ago and it's still a bad argument. You know, I'm just gonna throw this out there - there's a reason we play Smash instead of Rock Paper Scissors. It may have something to do with, um... Depth. That there's more to the game than rock paper scissors

Also, "There may exist valid arguments" - well then let's hear them. Because we haven't so far. Don't just say "there's evidence for my position, and no I won't tell you".

 

[John12346]

So a key point I want to touch on, is the contradiction between the seeming acceptance of the community of Custom Specials, between all of the threads here and the results of those two polls(only serves as a rough indicator, but still), and the fact that tournament series do NOT seem to be following suit. You could say that Apex is a large reason, but many regions simply did not bother even before we knew the full Apex ruleset, so...

What gives?

 

[Firedemon0]

So a key point I want to touch on, is the contradiction between the seeming acceptance of the community of Custom Specials, between all of the threads here and the results of those two polls(only serves as a rough indicator, but still), and the fact that tournament series do NOT seem to be following suit. You could say that Apex is a large reason, but many regions simply did not bother even before we knew the full Apex ruleset, so...

What gives?

Honestly it seems like it may be just laziness. While the Custom standard project has made it awesome to load up a bunch of Wii U setups with non-editable setups, which is an added bonus in my opinion. I too have seen a lack of depth about why they do not want to be used, besides "its too difficult to unlock", "I don't want to learn the matchup", "it would be too hard to tell which special is being used for counterpicking" etc.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't get the "too difficult to unlock" argument.
Does the Wii U need to have them unlocked to get transferred from the 3DS? Or is it just a misinformed complaint?

 

[John12346]

It's a misinformed complaint. All a tournament needs to at least run Amphy's sets is a SINGLE 3DS that has everything unlocked and you're good to go.

It may get a tad more complicated if people want to make deviating sets since they'd have to keep asking the guy with the 3DS but it would still all be completely doable.

NinjaLink had also devised a fix which involved people who didn't have access to Custom Specials to message him what sets they would like to use, and he would load them up on his 3DS/WiiU the night before.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So a TO who wants Customs literally only has to know someone with a 3DS that has every Custom Move unlocked (or someone who knows someone), ask him to copy the presets (or ask him to lend the 3DS so the TO can do it himself), and then magic happens?

 

[John12346]

Absolutely. In fact, a few months ago before we decided to nix customs temporarily(Apex, of course...), one of our players, Frozen, went ahead and loaded up all of Amphy's sets to the 5 or 6 WiiUs present in the venue, and got it done before the tournament even began.

 

[Raijinken]

So a TO who wants Customs literally only has to know someone with a 3DS that has every Custom Move unlocked (or someone who knows someone), ask him to copy the presets (or ask him to lend the 3DS so the TO can do it himself), and then magic happens?

Precisely. Though, assuming you follow the Custom Moveset Project to the letter, we're talking eight sets (or more if you know ahead of time that someone prefers an oddball setup) per character setup time on the 3DS, for 51 characters.

I just timed a test run, and it took me about 20 seconds to make one setup, counting renaming to suit the #### naming scheme. Times eight per character, 2.6 minutes per character. 51 characters, just under two and a half hours. Miis probably take a few moments longer, so assume that for a practiced user of the interface, it would take two and a half hours to set up all characters to the CMSP standard. This time must be invested once, with periodic updates to the CMSP taking far less time. Following that initial 3DS setup, you have to copy them to the Wii U. This takes roughly 30-45 seconds, depending on if you have existing profiles to overwrite, and on slight load time variability. Fair to estimate a half hour for the entire process, plus a few for unfamiliarity. For larger tournaments, that half hour can add up, as this needs to be done (again, only once) for every console.

That process can be sped up if you have multiple 3DSes with the setup. However, due to copying limitations (you can't re-copy a copy-transferred setup), each 3DS will take a flat 2.5 hours to set up if you want to be able to parallel process the U's. The break-even point for that setup time is about five systems, so unless you have each increment of 6 U's, there's nothing saved by using an extra 3DS. So it looks kinda like this:

1-11 U's = 1 3DS
12-17 U's = 2 3DS's
And so on. Correct my math if I made a mistake, it's not my strong point but I think this is accurate.

The setup time DOES add up (a ten-console venue is looking at almost a work-day worth of setup), but there are ways to reduce (or rather redistribute) that time. If console owners are able to unlock enough moves to complete any individual character's moveset (or even just set Miis and Palutena up ahead of time, since those are free), that saves minutes per setup, which saves time over-all. And again, this setup time only has to happen once. Past that, you're looking at half an hour tops per new console brought to the venue. All of this can be reduced with more man-hours and whatnot, too. Changing the 3DS default Mii's name to something shorter will also save seconds, as you have to backspace through that to enter the numbers.

Basically, the setup costs once you're provided with a full-unlock 3DS amounts to 2.5hr+.5hr*U with U being the number of new consoles needing setup. The time grows linearly. And it's completely worth it.

 

[John12346]

Just to corroborate this, I actually went through the trouble of creating Amphy's sets on my Wii U after unlocking all of the custom moves. Between setting up the specials, naming each set, and double checking to make sure I made no mistakes, I can confirm the process takes somewhere between 2 and 3 hours to complete. But of course, the benefit here is that I only had to do it once, and that time spent never has to be spent again, so that's cool.

Even for tournaments that run customs but don't use Amphy's sets, it's still enough as long as you have a few, or even just one 3DS with all customs unlocked. Being able to request a set or two that you'd like to use, and having them make it on the spot, isn't ideal, but it still gets results.

And I'd like to reiterate the importance of requesting everyone's preferred sets days before the tournament even begins via social networking, because it would allow people to prepare a much, MUCH smaller amount of required sets than Amphy's project, saving a ridiculous amount of time.

 

[Raijinken]

Just to corroborate this, I actually went through the trouble of creating Amphy's sets on my Wii U after unlocking all of the custom moves. Between setting up the specials, naming each set, and double checking to make sure I made no mistakes, I can confirm the process takes somewhere between 2 and 3 hours to complete. But of course, the benefit here is that I only had to do it once, and that time spent never has to be spent again, so that's cool.

Even for tournaments that run customs but don't use Amphy's sets, it's still enough as long as you have a few, or even just one 3DS with all customs unlocked. Being able to request a set or two that you'd like to use, and having them make it on the spot, isn't ideal, but it still gets results.

And I'd like to reiterate the importance of requesting everyone's preferred sets days before the tournament even begins via social networking, because it would allow people to prepare a much, MUCH smaller amount of required sets than Amphy's project, saving a ridiculous amount of time.

On top of that, instead of using slots 7 and 8 for 2222 and 3333, you can fill those with more useful sets, since I doubt players would be "experimenting" during a tournament.

But yea. The goal of the CMSP is to cover the majority of players, but especially if you contact your playerbase before the event, it's not hard at all to pre-load the oddballs.

 

[deepseadiva]

I've heard but this following idea thrown around casually, but I think there's something viable here...

Bring back the 3DS version as the Custom Move Allowed tournament.

 

[John12346]

I had actually thought of that too, but then we're kind of alienating customs players to a somewhat lackluster control schematic, one that's inferior to Gamecube and Wii U Pro Controllers, to be sure.

I don't think anyone really wants to go back after seeing the world of good a real controller can provide.

 

[deepseadiva]

I mean the 3DS game needs anything it can get at this point, and as a way to start getting people to play with customs competitively it's one tool that can be used.

 

[Raijinken]

I've heard but this following idea thrown around casually, but I think there's something viable here...

Bring back the 3DS version as the Custom Move Allowed tournament.

It's a viable idea, but it's not a justification for not making the U version customs-allowed as well.

 

[deepseadiva]

No of course not. But the community at large clearly needs stepping stones.

I think it would be a good introduction for customs.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I legitimately don't enjoy playing on 3ds, the controls really are just too bad. I have a feeling a lot of players feel exactly the same way, and the reverse doesn't hold true since on Wii U players can link a 3ds if they actually prefer 3ds controls (I have run into a few players who do in fact, power to them). There's really no reason to hold 3ds events unless you think the 3ds stages are worth preserving in the tournament scene, and honestly, Prism Tower is the only real loss from the lot. It sounds simplistic, but we really do just need to push for customs on in standard Wii U events.

 

[Teshie U]

^Yoshis Island and Brinstar are great stages.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So is Tomodachi Life, but that's besides the point.
Apparently I'll be able to run tournaments in the short future (not exclusively Smash 4).
I'll push for this idea, and try my best to get matches uploaded.

 

[Wilyen]

i have a simple question? how will match ups work.

 

[Uniit]

So, at first, I'm not a active supporter of custom moves, but i would mind if this was the norm. I've already set the CMSP in my WiiU, and using them times to times.

But some needs to understand that tournament are competitive event, and the "APEX turned it off, so do I" argument is valid for those who plan to ever participate/win at major scale events. It goes like this : Major Event set rules => Pro player play with those rules => Folk play with those rules => TO want attendence, so they will apply those rules => Those rules becomes the norm => Major events apply them.

Not being the "I'm competitive, so do as i say" guy, as I'm probably not as competitive as many of you, but there is imo the reason behind the large scale norm. As long as major event don't want to use custom moves, it would remain in minor event, as side rules.

Again imo, time is the best ally of the custom moves, as well as people actively supporting it, because after some time, people would have onlocked custom move, and changed their mind. The best hope would be to run side by side with and without custom move tournament.

 

[ぱみゅ]

i have a simple question? how will match ups work.

That's precisely the point of this Custom Movement: getting to know how much different the Matchups would become.

So, at first, I'm not a active supporter of custom moves, but i would mind if this was the norm. I've already set the CMSP in my WiiU, and using them times to times.

But some needs to understand that tournament are competitive event, and the "APEX turned it off, so do I" argument is valid for those who plan to ever participate/win at major scale events. It goes like this : Major Event set rules => Pro player play with those rules => Folk play with those rules => TO want attendence, so they will apply those rules => Those rules becomes the norm => Major events apply them.

Not being the "I'm competitive, so do as i say" guy, as I'm probably not as competitive as many of you, but there is imo the reason behind the large scale norm. As long as major event don't want to use custom moves, it would remain in minor event, as side rules.

Again imo, time is the best ally of the custom moves, as well as people actively supporting it, because after some time, people would have onlocked custom move, and changed their mind. The best hope would be to run side by side with and without custom move tournament.

imo, it can go both ways.
Apex Ruleset is legit because most TOs are lazy, and top players tend to be EVEN MORE LAZY. Easy Ruleset, easy to enforce, easy to follow, and it DOES matter because it will be used a major event; why wouldn't I use it?
HOWEVER. It's a bad ruleset, has many issues as analysts back here pointed out in-and-out and have come better solutions. Hopefully the best articulated option (still being sculpted by the way) gets the upper hand at the very end.

 

[Raijinken]

That's precisely the point of this Custom Movement: getting to know how much different the Matchups would become.
imo, it can go both ways.
Apex Ruleset is legit because most TOs are lazy, and top players tend to be EVEN MORE LAZY. Easy Ruleset, easy to enforce, easy to follow, and it DOES matter because it will be used a major event; why wouldn't I use it?
HOWEVER. It's a bad ruleset, has many issues as analysts back here pointed out in-and-out and have come better solutions. Hopefully the best articulated option (still being sculpted by the way) gets the upper hand at the very end.

Unfortunately, the gap between theory in practice is, as pointed out in one of these theory threads, "profit". Whether that's from a finance stance or a popularity stance, most TOs operate to increase attendance, and while the scene is growing, the majority of people (current players and up-and-coming-former-spectators) are still familiar with the conservative rulesets, default loadouts, and simple (and inbuilt, not custom) stages. While big tournaments (where the payout is notable) run conservative rulesets, there's little profitable reason to swap those rules up. BUT, as you say and many hope, now that THE big Smash-focused tournament is done, we have effectively the largest available time in which to convince TOs and players to examine new rulesets and try to overcome laziness and comfort for the chance of a deeper and better balanced game (from both a stage and custom move stance that is). One can only hope they choose to do so.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So, at first, I'm not a active supporter of custom moves, but i would mind if this was the norm. I've already set the CMSP in my WiiU, and using them times to times.

But some needs to understand that tournament are competitive event, and the "APEX turned it off, so do I" argument is valid for those who plan to ever participate/win at major scale events. It goes like this : Major Event set rules => Pro player play with those rules => Folk play with those rules => TO want attendence, so they will apply those rules => Those rules becomes the norm => Major events apply them.

Not being the "I'm competitive, so do as i say" guy, as I'm probably not as competitive as many of you, but there is imo the reason behind the large scale norm. As long as major event don't want to use custom moves, it would remain in minor event, as side rules.

Again imo, time is the best ally of the custom moves, as well as people actively supporting it, because after some time, people would have onlocked custom move, and changed their mind. The best hope would be to run side by side with and without custom move tournament.

It's circular logic though. Players want Apex rules, Apex keeps the same rules because players are used to them, where's the room for change? This is why it's important to push for customs in the first place.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Unfortunately, the gap between theory in practice is, as pointed out in one of these theory threads, "profit". Whether that's from a finance stance or a popularity stance, most TOs operate to increase attendance, and while the scene is growing, the majority of people (current players and up-and-coming-former-spectators) are still familiar with the conservative rulesets, default loadouts, and simple (and inbuilt, not custom) stages. While big tournaments (where the payout is notable) run conservative rulesets, there's little profitable reason to swap those rules up. BUT, as you say and many hope, now that THE big Smash-focused tournament is done, we have effectively the largest available time in which to convince TOs and players to examine new rulesets and try to overcome laziness and comfort for the chance of a deeper and better balanced game (from both a stage and custom move stance that is). One can only hope they choose to do so.

I haven't actually seen evidence suggesting most players want more conservative rulesets. All polling suggests people want (somewhat) more liberal rules in fact (especially custom moves). My hypothesis is that attendance and popularity would rise with more widespread usage of custom moves and a slight expansion of stage lists in many places (just a few more, not a lot more). For most players it's not a dealbreaker so they're not losing *that* badly by using inferior rulesets, but I'm quite convinced they are in fact losing, not gaining, from being conservative. I just haven't talked to people or seen any kind of real evidence that suggests anything else; this forum seems to have a near consensus that custom moves make the game better, and the people I talk to in person (and who play 4 as their main game, important point that one) seem to mostly agree. Where are all of these people who demand we don't use custom moves? Note that players who aren't sure don't count; only those who have made up their minds that custom moves are definitely bad count as the anti-custom side. As far as I can tell, they're very few in number; it's not quite unanimous but the pro-custom move position is as close to a consensus as this community has ever had on any topic...

 

[DunnoBro]

I would love to see someone here with an actual highly critical post arguing FOR having them banned.
At this point most, if not all, of the analyst people back here agree that Customs should be allowed.

I remember the only person I talked to at apex vehemently against customs was a brawl player who seriously argued that they're "worse than PM" and "we should keep sm4sh traditional, the way sakurai intended it"

Honestly anyone who uses PM as a metric for a bad fighting game should be ignored, but the fact people not only don't think customs are official/traditional, but also don't see how they're playing a game with rules and metagames developed by players, not developers is seriously worrying. I won't allow ignorant naysayers to deny me my game.

 

[Raijinken]

I haven't actually seen evidence suggesting most players want more conservative rulesets. All polling suggests people want (somewhat) more liberal rules in fact (especially custom moves). My hypothesis is that attendance and popularity would rise with more widespread usage of custom moves and a slight expansion of stage lists in many places (just a few more, not a lot more). For most players it's not a dealbreaker so they're not losing *that* badly by using inferior rulesets, but I'm quite convinced they are in fact losing, not gaining, from being conservative. I just haven't talked to people or seen any kind of real evidence that suggests anything else; this forum seems to have a near consensus that custom moves make the game better, and the people I talk to in person (and who play 4 as their main game, important point that one) seem to mostly agree. Where are all of these people who demand we don't use custom moves? Note that players who aren't sure don't count; only those who have made up their minds that custom moves are definitely bad count as the anti-custom side. As far as I can tell, they're very few in number; it's not quite unanimous but the pro-custom move position is as close to a consensus as this community has ever had on any topic...

I was paraphrasing this post when I stated that. I also feel like many players, when of an indifferent opinion, will lean towards comfort unless they can be quickly convinced of the merits of a change. Much like opposition to stage picking revisions despite clear benefits, the status quo, no matter how inferior it may be, holds a lot of power.

 

[「 Derk 」]

It's unfortunate that people seem to be stuck in this mindset where custom moves are banned from tournaments since they need to be tested... but because these moves are banned nobody wants to waste their time testing (or unlocking) them in the first place. It's hard to get people to sit down and toy around with something they can't use in a competitive environment.

Is there something game breaking about customs? Nope, they actually give characters a better grasp on match ups. Most of the customs take the default move and tweak an effect or power in exchange of something else. They are balanced and deserve a shot at competitive play. People think the issue is unlocking everything, but @ Amazing Ampharos and a lot of people from the community already fixed that "problem". So honestly why are we not using customs yet? I will use Zelda for my examples since she is my main and I spent a great deal of my time playing around with her custom moves in my free time. I used her in a couple of online tournaments that allowed custom moves back in the 3ds version and even wrote a detailed analysis over her customs in my Zelda guide here on smashboards.

Singles Zelda:
Zelda struggles in close combat against fast characters because she has laggy moves and is a ranged based fighter. Default Din's Fire and Phantom Slash are too slow in 1v1 against these characters because they can just rush through them and punish her. Din's Flare is a faster version of Din's Fire that deals the same damage but loses it's vertical movement. This allows her to cover a larger area at a faster rate while sacrificing a large amount of her offstage pressure and landing traps. Phantom Strike deals more damage and fully charges in half the time, but it remains in front of Zelda and no longer functions as a kill move. This gives her a strong answer to fast approaches since the phantom charges faster and stays directly in front of her, removing the blind spot that fast characters could simply abuse by running through the default phantom. This 1213 set would specifically be to deal with fast characters and allow Zelda to adjust her set for a new style to deal with the default's weakness. She sacrifices a great deal of offstage pressure to make up for her weakness in close combat positions.

Doubles Zelda:
A lot of Zelda's customs were not designed for singles. Honestly, Zelda in general is much more viable in teams. Din's Blaze for example, takes the default Din's Fire and gives it a huge boost in control but the explosion is delayed. This allows you to set traps on the stage to edge guard, deny opponents parts of the stage momentarily, or even set up an attack for your partner to hit the opponents into. Farore's Squall removes the damage from Farore's Wind entirely, in exchange you can now push or pull players along your teleport path. This is a strong support option that has a lot of potential uses in teams. If your partner can't make it back to the stage you can go out and pull them back to stage with you, essentially saving a vital stock. You can also push your teammate around the stage while they charge attacks to hit the opponents (here is an example video). This is a set focused on supporting your partner and controlling the stage. You can also play a very aggressive support Zelda, which is how I play her personally.

Long story short: Customs add not only to the characters and the game, but to the players and they play styles as well. There is no reason for them to be banned with such an easy solution already available.

 

[guedes the brawler]

It's unfortunate that people seem to be stuck in this mindset where custom moves are banned from tournaments since they need to be tested... but because these moves are banned nobody wants to waste their time testing (or unlocking) them in the first place. It's hard to get people to sit down and toy around with something they can't use in a competitive environment.

Is there something game breaking about customs? Nope, they actually give characters a better grasp on match ups. Most of the customs take the default move and tweak an effect or power in exchange of something else. They are balanced and deserve a shot at competitive play. People think the issue is unlocking everything, but @ Amazing Ampharos and a lot of people from the community already fixed that "problem". So honestly why are we not using customs yet? I will use Zelda for my examples since she is my main and I spent a great deal of my time playing around with her custom moves in my free time. I used her in a couple of online tournaments that allowed custom moves back in the 3ds version and even wrote a detailed analysis over her customs in my Zelda guide here on smashboards.

Singles Zelda:
Zelda struggles in close combat against fast characters because she has laggy moves and is a ranged based fighter. Default Din's Fire and Phantom Slash are too slow in 1v1 against these characters because they can just rush through them and punish her. Din's Flare is a faster version of Din's Fire that deals the same damage but loses it's vertical movement. This allows her to cover a larger area at a faster rate while sacrificing a large amount of her offstage pressure and landing traps. Phantom Strike deals more damage and fully charges in half the time, but it remains in front of Zelda and no longer functions as a kill move. This gives her a strong answer to fast approaches since the phantom charges faster and stays directly in front of her, removing the blind spot that fast characters could simply abuse by running through the default phantom. This 1213 set would specifically be to deal with fast characters and allow Zelda to adjust her set for a new style to deal with the default's weakness. She sacrifices a great deal of offstage pressure to make up for her weakness in close combat positions.

Doubles Zelda:
A lot of Zelda's customs were not designed for singles. Honestly, Zelda in general is much more viable in teams. Din's Blaze for example, takes the default Din's Fire and gives it a huge boost in control but the explosion is delayed. This allows you to set traps on the stage to edge guard, deny opponents parts of the stage momentarily, or even set up an attack for your partner to hit the opponents into. Farore's Squall removes the damage from Farore's Wind entirely, in exchange you can now push or pull players along your teleport path. This is a strong support option that has a lot of potential uses in teams. If your partner can't make it back to the stage you can go out and pull them back to stage with you, essentially saving a vital stock. You can also push your teammate around the stage while they charge attacks to hit the opponents (here is an example video). This is a set focused on supporting your partner and controlling the stage. You can also play a very aggressive support Zelda, which is how I play her personally.

Long story short: Customs add not only to the characters and the game, but to the players and they play styles as well. There is no reason for them to be banned with such an easy solution already available.

and of not ehere is that this logn post proves that zelda likes custom move.s

and zelda is one of the characters that, imo, benefits the less from the addition compared to, say... nah, palu's too extreme, i guess ganondorf is a good comparison.