Current Differences Between Melee and P:M?

[acdebega]

What are the current technical differences, either engine or mechanics or camera or whatever, between P:M and Melee. A list would be nice.

For example, shield mechanics aren't quite what they are in Melee, but I'm sure there's more.

Thanks for the help in advance.

Characters and stages notwithstanding.

EDIT: - techs not carrying momentum
- shield mechanics--pushback, light shield-- not currently implemented
- landing detection
- tethers
- 'supposed floatiness that wasn't present in Melee'

Keep them coming. Thanks to those who posted

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Well....... ummmm....... there`s... no....... um....... well......... there`s Turbo mode coming in the next release.

 

[acdebega]

I mean, certain gameplay features/mechanics that are in Melee, but not in P:M. If that helps.

 

[acdebega]

Sorry if I worded the question strangely. What I am trying to ask makes sense in my head.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Probably the biggest difference I've noticed is that landing detection is still not 100% accurate, its most notable with platforms. Techs are another thing, they still don't carry over momentum. The melee vets I've been exposed to usually believe that characters in pm generally are floatier and have less traction, but I'm unsure if thats actually true.

 

[acdebega]

Now when you say landing detection?

 

[Plum]

Basically the point on the character's model that has to touch ground for the game to determine that you have landed.
IIRC in Melee this is dynamic and varies between moves. Perhaps the most famous example of landing detection is Ganondorf's Dair in Melee; he doesn't land until his shins hit the ground, which leads to some funny situations where you hit people below you on platforms, or just barely through the stage as they try to recover.
In Brawl landing detection was static at the characters feet (yeah this makes more sense, but we're trying to emulate Melee's gameplay to create a sequel).

 

[cmart]

Uh brawl's landing detection was tied to TopN, bone 0 or whatever else you want to call it. A static spot right below a character's feet that never changes, no matter what they're doing in an animation. A lot of times, you can land from the air underneath you lol. Melee's is definitely a lot more natural since it moves with you.

 

[CORY]

Basically the point on the character's model that has to touch ground for the game to determine that you have landed.
IIRC in Melee this is dynamic and varies between moves. Perhaps the most famous example of landing detection is Ganondorf's Dair in Melee; he doesn't land until his shins hit the ground, which leads to some funny situations where you hit people below you on platforms, or just barely through the stage as they try to recover.
In Brawl landing detection was static at the characters feet (yeah this makes more sense, but we're trying to emulate Melee's gameplay to create a sequel).

kind of off on a lot of stuff. due to the topn bone you get really wonky looking stuff like link doing a sex kick and magically "landing" 3 feet off the ground.

though, you're correct about ganon/falcon stomping through platforms being a byproduct of melee landing detection, your reasoning is a bit skewed.

Uh brawl's landing detection was tied to TopN, bone 0 or whatever else you want to call it. A static spot right below a character's feet that never changes, no matter what they're doing in an animation. A lot of times, you can land from the air underneath you lol. Melee's is definitely a lot more natural since it moves with you.

^ this is it.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

For general physics, Melee has light shielding, tether recoveries (link Zair), dynamic landing detection and momentum carrying techs. PM has DACUS (certain characters can cancel dash attack with USmash), RAR, and one frame delay on momentum calculation. Wavedashing also feels a bit off, but that's probably a result of momentum and/or landing detection rather than an individual issue.

 

[Phaiyte]

The main difference is that P:M is not Melee.

 

[Rikana]

Another good example of stage collision detection (landing detection) is Link's teleporting nAir from Brawl. Someone can link it as I don't really have time to find the .gif

PM's ledge tethers vs. Melee's wall tethers is another example of a big difference. If we ever get wall tethers working though, we may use that instead.

Momentum during tech rolls (not standing teching).

How the shield works.

"Priority" of attacks.

I'm just going to stop the list here as these are the most obvious ones. The list is actually quite large and filled with really small details that make a difference between Melee and PM.

 

[Blondie.]

Can someone explain the tech differences? I never played melee so I'm not really aware of how it's different.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Jumpstart doesn't slide off edges in project m.

Sensitivity on the control stick for things like tilts/smashes/dashes/etc is a little different in project m. I'm fairly sure this is the case, gives me a hard time fluidly transferring my dashdancing between games.

Jab resets are based on a knockback threshold instead of a damage threshold. This is actually intentional and allows for high damage knockdown resets like luigi's dtilt as well as prevent that awkward hitstun/knockback/? glitch in melee where certain moves (falco's shine and falcon's side-b most notably) would launch a downed opponent with no hitstun.

Ledge grabs have one frame less invincibility, I think. Other ledge actions also occupy the ledge for less time, most particularly rolls. Ledge jumps can also be acted out of once the initial animation of leaping off the edge ends. These are all intentional I believe.

Momentum from walljumps can be shifted without interrupting the post-jump animation with an aerial, meaning repeated wall jumps by drifting back to the wall are improved since you don't have to do an aerial to start to drift back.

Various added mechanics like wallclings, RAR's, B-reversals, DACUS, etc.

Power shields of projectiles work differently than melee (I think?). If I remember correctly, powershielding projectiles in melee worked by shielding a projectile while it was in your maximum shield bubble size or something along those lines, whereas project m PSes projectiles for the first 2 frames. Not entirely sure on these details though.

Short hops are easier due to the window to release the jump button extending into the last frame of jumpstart in project m, unlike in melee where that frame was excluded from the window.

Dash pivots are easier as a tilt input opposite your dash direction will stop your character and turn them around immediately.

Ceiling bounces still work like brawl, at least that's the last I heard PMBR say about those.

Throws have static release points in project m whereas in melee the release point changed based on (I think?) weight or some other per-character basis.

These are in addition to the others mentioned. I'll add more obscure ones when I think of them lol. It's entirely possible that some of these are fixed already and I haven't paid attention well enough to notice, hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will correct me if that is the case.

 

[TreK]

^ nice summary.

There's also crawling, which is now your character's best taunt if he can do it.

 

[Qzzy]

Is the camera going to be changed? I think I read before that it wasn't, but not sure.

I feel it's so far away compared to melee. I notice I want to want to sit closer to the TV than for melee. I guess the greater stage presence is okay, but I'd rather have the focus on the characters. I'm finding it harder to notice exactly what happened on certain collisions, why something beat or loss something. I'm not doubting the results shouldn't have happened, I just want to see it more closely.

 

[SmashAmass]

Is the camera going to be changed? I think I read before that it wasn't, but not sure.

I feel it's so far away compared to melee. I notice I want to want to sit closer to the TV than for melee. I guess the greater stage presence is okay, but I'd rather have the focus on the characters. I'm finding it harder to notice exactly what happened on certain collisions, why something beat or loss something. I'm not doubting the results shouldn't have happened, I just want to see it more closely.

^ This. I feel that's really one of the biggest problems with the mod so far, it's near impossible to enjoy on smaller televisions! The camera needs to focus more on the characters when they approach one another, that is certainly the most noticeable difference right off the bat. Still, if camera positioning is one of only a couple of major flaws in your mod, I think you've done something right.

 

[Beorn]

^ This. I feel that's really one of the biggest problems with the mod so far, it's near impossible to enjoy on smaller televisions! The camera needs to focus more on the characters when they approach one another, that is certainly the most noticeable difference right off the bat. Still, if camera positioning is one of only a couple of major flaws in your mod, I think you've done something right.

Indeed, camera is probably the most jarring change for me from melee to pm besides the 1 frame momentum thing and landing detection still being off. I love melee camera, it makes everything seem so fast.

 

[Burnsy]

Throws have static release points in project m whereas in melee the release point changed based on (I think?) weight or some other per-character basis.

Pretty sure this isn't correct. One of Cmarts guides to Squirtles frame data specifically mentions that his fthrow has a low release point that benefits the throw and gives it stats similar to Marth's fthrow.

 

[dettadeus]

Don't forget things like grab armor and port priority

 

[Xinc]

Aside from those mentioned above, like the DACUS, obviously new characters and adjusted movesets, as well as some aesthetic changes, like Falco's Neutral A combo and Ganon's U-Tilt. I think there is still a slight difference in landing detection so teching has to be a bit earlier, right?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Pretty sure this isn't correct. One of Cmarts guides to Squirtles frame data specifically mentions that his fthrow has a low release point that benefits the throw and gives it stats similar to Marth's fthrow.

You misunderstand. Melee's throw release points change depending on the character being thrown. Project:M does not have that- a low release point on squirtle's fthrow doesn't have anything to do with that.

Don't forget things like grab armor and port priority

Grab armor doesn't exist- what happens is the grab out prioritizes the knockback animation. If a grab and a hit connect from opposing characters on the same frame, the grab wins. Melee has this as well. The only difference between the two is that in Brawl and P:M the damage goes through, while in Melee the attack is ignored completely, including the damage.

 

[DrinkingFood]

herp
10derps

 

[dettadeus]

Grab armor doesn't exist- what happens is the grab out prioritizes the knockback animation. If a grab and a hit connect from opposing characters on the same frame, the grab wins. Melee has this as well. The only difference between the two is that in Brawl and P:M the damage goes through, while in Melee the attack is ignored completely, including the damage.

...yes, and this interaction is called Grab Armor and has been since it became more noticeable in Brawl.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-lab-standard-terms-list-2-0.302576/#post-12633608
The reason I listed Grab Armor as a difference is because you take the damage in Brawl/PM, but not in Melee - not because it exists in Brawl/PM and not in Melee.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Suit yourself, I'll be over here making distinctions that aren't misleading. It's like calling B-reversals "Wave Bouncing".

 

[Caz1]

After taking a very long break from Melee and solely playing P:M, I tried out Melee again the other day. I could not believe how different it feels. My issue is that I can't quite determine WHY it feels so different. My gut instinct is to say speed and floatiness, but actually examining those things doesn't lead to a clear answer. On the whole, P:M characters feel slower and more floaty to me. Is this merely a psychological thing? As sold as I was/am on P:M, I can't shake this feeling that Melee physics feel much better. I find myself reluctant to pop the Brawl disc back in now that I've played around in Melee again.

Is this all in my head? I don't want to be that guy who spouts misinformation guided by nostalgia.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Probably the biggest difference in feel is how the game registers tilts/smash inputs. Melee requires a stronger/quicker input on the stick to get a smash input, meaning you have to flick the stick faster for dash dancing, and the timing for fast falling is slightly different, probably leading to missing your fast falls after playing melee and making P:M feel floatier. Otherwise though, in terms of feeling of the controls, unless you're playing different characters, the games should be so identical it's almost unnoticeable. Models/colors/animations often being different can't feel a little wonky though. Lots of characters have different landfallspecial animations that makes wavedashes look different.

 

[Caz1]

Hm, that definitely helps. I have noticed oddly failed dash dances and strange difficulties with fast falling and I just couldn't figure out what was going on. I believe the fast fall timing is what is throwing me off with the floaty feeling. My suspicion is that fast falling is possible at an earlier point in the melee jump, which would lead to spending more time in the air and "hanging" for a bit longer in P:M. My main comparisons are Falco and Marth, by the way. Perhaps the model/animation changes on Falco are throwing me off (this is actually very likely), but I swear Marth feels like he's less responsive on the ground with startup animations. It wasn't anything I noticed while playing P:M, but when I switched back to Melee I was legitimately shocked at how fast Marth felt moving around.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Hm, that definitely helps. I have noticed oddly failed dash dances and strange difficulties with fast falling and I just couldn't figure out what was going on. I believe the fast fall timing is what is throwing me off with the floaty feeling. My suspicion is that fast falling is possible at an earlier point in the melee jump, which would lead to spending more time in the air and "hanging" for a bit longer in P:M. My main comparisons are Falco and Marth, by the way. Perhaps the model/animation changes on Falco are throwing me off (this is actually very likely), but I swear Marth feels like he's less responsive on the ground with startup animations. It wasn't anything I noticed while playing P:M, but when I switched back to Melee I was legitimately shocked at how fast Marth felt moving around.

Also to note, P:M currently has a left over from brawl that makes all changes to momentum happen one frame later. My understanding is that it affects your jumps (full and short) like this:
In P:M, you jump, your character is technically in the air the frame after their jumpstart animation ends. This first frame though, they don't gain any height, they are as close to the ground as possible while still being airborne. The second frame is when they gain momentum upwards and begin to gain height. This means they reach the peak of their jump 1 frame later and (assuming both melee and P:M determine the first frame of possible fast fall is when the character has downward momentum) thus begin their descent 1 frame later meaning you must input the fast fall one frame later. Combined with the fact that the fast fall input on the control stick does not need to be as quick, you may be moving the stick downward at the right speed as far as melee requires, but as far as P:M requires, you may have actually pushed the stick downward to the appropriate angle one frame ago, meaning in total you angled the stick downward as much as ~two frames early*.

*based on speculation but it seems right based on my understanding of the differences in control stick senstivity

 

[Caz1]

It's hard to believe sometimes that individual frame differences can have such a large effect on psychological reactions to the game!

All of these single frame differences do add up to make an end result that is noticeably different to any experienced Smash player, I imagine. Is P:M meant to feel different, the way it does? Or is the back room still aiming to reduce these differences?

 

[DrinkingFood]

The PMBR aims (or seems to, atleast) to have an engine almost exactly like melee's, with brawl's negative physics anomalies removed.

That being said, melee and P:M have ranges of muscle memory that overlap and allow you to play both games optimally without the need to adjust for several hours. I now can actually flip between games fairly easy without regularly missing technical stuff so long as I have a few games to warm up. Give it a week or so of playing both games every day for a decent amount of time, you'll find that the only reason your muscle memory from melee doesn't work for P:M is because Melee gives you more room in one direction (tilts are easier I believe) whereas P:M gives you more lenience in a different direction (smash inputs, such as for dashing/fast falling, are easier). There's a range where the sensitivities overlap or almost overlap, and it's well within human ability to adjust quickly. Just give it some time.

 

[vegeta18]

ive heard people mention that project M isnt as fast as melee still, is that true?

 

[GP&B]

sweet necro dude