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Critique needed for my Kirby vs Wolf

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
5,520
Location
Portugal
Here's the video http://youtube.com/watch?v=LNC_1pM1ZEY

My first live smash tournament, both of us' first live brawl tournament.

There are plenty of mistakes to pick at, but what I really need help with is edge-guarding and maybe kirbyciding.

And I know Kirby's chain-grabs but most of the times I just forget about it :(
 

lockdown7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
54
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Ok, first thing first, you need to lead with bair. this is kirbys best move of all. You don't have to short hop your bairs every time. Its good to full hop them and drop them in, especially with people like wolf since he was a projectile.

Use your throw combos. Gonzo combo gets wolf to 42%. Can' really beat that.

I like your use of the rock but you used it a bit too much. Same goes with the hammer. You got punished going for a kill with the hammer way too many times.

The main aspect you should work on is your spacing with your bairs. Pressure your opponent so if he at all gets close to you he gets baired or grabbed. You have good potential so just keep playing and all of this will just come naturally. Also try and work in dair and utilts more.
 

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
5,520
Location
Portugal
Thanks for the input, but to be honest you haven't really told me anything new. I choose to mix in Fairs so that my Bairs won't turn completely stale. Fair, although not as awesome as the Bair, is a good aerial in it's own right.

I didn't really get as punished as you said I had using the aerial hammer. I got a lot more punished for using final cutter when I shouldn't have. I can admit I used the rock a bit too much though.

I did try to work in Dairs but they didn't work. I was almost never in a position for Utilt, but I do use it regularly (in other matches) as a follow-up for Dthrow and as a counter-attack when they approach from behind.


What I want to know is how to set up swallow-spit kills, which is too good vs Wolf and his awful recovery. What I should have done at 1:00'ish to get an easy gimp kill.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
You can't gimp Wolfs forward B - it's a waste of time. You can only try to gimp his Upward B, but a good Wolf can avoid situation, that force him to use it.

I found that Wolf pretty bad. He used Full Hop diar as approach, didn't force you to approach and just used fsmash for no real reason.

A good Wolf should have the advantage against Kirby. His bair outranges any of Kirbys aerials to prevent aerial combos but he never even tried to make a wall of pain. On the ground Wolf can force Kirby to approach and destroy him with bair. In close combat, Kirby is Shine fodder since he lacks disjointed hitboxes.

First of all, this Wolf didn't use any of his most effective tactics (Bair spam, Laser, Shine, 0 lag fair, shield Grab) but instead he used BS like upB, Dash attack as well as Dair as an approach. His close combat basically only contained Grabs althoug Ftilt, Jab and Dtild completely outrange Kirby (he ised it about once in the entire battle -_-). On top of that, he beat you up until 100+% althou his dsmash could've killed you earlier

About your Kirby: It's pretty good, you would've won, if Wolf hadn't had he advntage. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems, that you lack knowledge how to deal with Wolf, am I right?
Against Wolf you need to airdodge a lot. If he beats you into the air he tries to keep you up with his uair. Airdodge to get on the ground asap. Many of his attacks could've been shield grabbed (his dash attack) and spotdodging would've helped a lot too.
 

Tomato Kirby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
582
10 MINUTES?! Why does the tournament use 5 stock? If it is finals, they should just do best out of 5 or 7.

Oh, and a note about d-throw to u-tilt string: it is a character-specific combo

The basic combo is Down Throw -> U-tilt(2 times for some characters) -> Uair. Some of these you can do usmash. For some it is possible to di out by jumping up but not many. On the fast fallers you can do 2 u-tilts possibly backwards and after uair throw in a bair. You can modify this many ways to keep your opponent off guard. The main part of this combo is use D Throw and Utilt, the Uair can be changed for many moves. The number beside the name refers to the # of U-tilts. The fast fallers also can be u-tilted once, uair'd and then use down throw again.

Mario - No
Dk - Yes (1)
Link - Yes (1)
Samus - No
ZSS - No
*Kirby - Yes (1)
Fox - Yes (1 or 2)
Pika - Yes (1)
*Marth - Yes (1)
*GW - Yes (1)
Luigi - Yes (1)
*Diddy - Yes (1)
Sheik - Yes (1)
Zelda - No
*Pit - Yes (1)
*MK - Yes (1)
Falco - Yes (1 or 2)
*Squirtle - Yes (1)
Charizard - Yes (1)
Ivy - Yes (1)
Ike - Yes (1)
Snake - Yes (1)
Peach - No
*Gannon - Yes (1)
IC's - No
DDD - Yes (1)
Wolf - Yes (1 or 2)
Lucario - No
*Ness - Yes (1)
*Sonic - Yes (1)
Bowser - Yes (1)
Wario - Yes (1)
*TL - Yes (1)
Rob - Yes (1)
*Olimar - Yes (1)
CF - Yes (1 or 2)
Jiggs - No
*Lucas - Yes (1)

Characters marked with an asterisk (*) can di out vertically if they have reflexes of a super computer, but it's possible.
Now for the critiques...

Good:
1. Used aerials effectively
2. You DI aerial attacks well
3. Negligible input lag for aerials after jumping

Bad:
1. Spamming Final Cutter on stage (you did it 18 times)
2. Failure to scam a KO from Wolf's recovery
3. F-smashes were too far from the opponent
4. Kirbycides were ineffective...8:08 was a disaster. The deadly death manuever is for non-projectile foes. That shoud have been punished. Wolf is also a bad foe to copy due to lag of blaster and his ease of Reflector/Shine.
5. Ineffective Stone offensive manuevers...not the main tool for edge-guarding
6. Rolling for spacing
7. More Ground Hammer than I would like.
8. On the last stock, use Final Cutter anyway to recover; the opponent could still mess up. It might have been possible to recover to the floating Smashville platform.

To do:
1. Learn when to use Final Cutter
2. Learn hugging (drop off ledge and push control stick towards ledge=edge-guard)
3. Stop rolling so much
4. Learn what percents the Gonzo combo works at
5. U-tilt/b-air out of shield more?...I counted 3 opportunities the whole time, so it is hard to say. :ohwell:
6. Taunt more :)

Edge-guarding (VS Wolf)
1. The side special recoveries were huggable (the ledge) and there were also several frames for Kirby to launch b-air during Wolf's start-up lag. On the ledge when Wolf is below, a fast-falled b-air would do wonders. Probably b-air would have helped in knocking Wolf out before the attack was executed.
2. B-air outprioritizes, d-tilt, and f/d-smash against Wolf's up special are of equal priority. I never used u-tilt against that recovery, but it might work.
3. No Stone if they are on the ledge
4. Hug the edge
5. When Wolf has the edge, try standing away from the ledge enough that you can still attack with d-tilt/smash.
6. Off-stage pursuit is easy against Wolf

Kirbyciding (general):
1. Common setups (works best off-stage, chances of success dramatically less on it) are:
Ledge-hop~>Inhale
Dash~>short hop~>Inhale
Standing on the edge~>Inhale
Floating down in the air~Inhale
Stage spitting:
2. DI under the stage and use Star Shot. Keep in mind that several characters can get away.

Questions
1. What happened to n-air?
2. What is your experience against Wolf?

Epic Win:
1. 4:53 Brilliant Stone use. Best Stone I ever saw!


Obviously, this was a long, long match. You did OK. Just drop a couple of bad habits and learn how to scam KOs off space animals, and you should be fine.

...

Gheb_01: Yes, the Wolf definitely underutilized several techniques, though they were still there (barely).

However...

In this fight, the side special recoveries were huggable (the ledge) and there were also several frames for Kirby to launch b-air during Wolf's start-up lag.

Scamming a KO off of Wolf's up special is rather easy, even against a great Wolf with Kirby's b-air. If Kirby can afford about another 15% damage, more options are available (d-tilt, and f/d-smash). You sound like Wolf gets back on the stage easily.

Kirby VS Wolf is about an even fight. Wolf may be slightly better, but not to the point I find it an advantage.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
UpB is easy to gimp but SideB requires good timing or it spikes you. Shouldn't be a problem for Kirby though but it prevents abusive edgehogging.

About the match-up...I'll fight more Kirbys the next days, I need it anyways for the match-up thread
 

Tomato Kirby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
582
^Wow, that was fast!

I was talking about knocking Wolf out during start-up lag of his side special.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
I hate the Gonzo Combo. And yeah Corneria sucks, any Wolf mainer can tell you how true it is <_<
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
6,057
Location
Being the most hated
it was a different post asking for critique on a video, i put it on 3 different threads, once it got critiqued i erased the two that didnt get critiqued and replaced it with that

i did? thanks for the great avatar doooooooooooode
 

jtowns

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
111
Location
Roanoke VA
That wolf was pretty bad >_>

You need to use u-tilt and better spacing. There were many times where you were using final cutter at times that were absolutely not needed. I disagree about the aerial game vs. Wolf. If you just keep your airdodge finger itchy, you can easily airdodge his bair or fair, and instantly follow it up with a bair of your own. You were better than him, you shouldn't have lost :(
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
Thanks for the info Tomato Kirby. I too am having trouble against Wolf (Omniswell). Good Wolves are few and far between, but when I do fight them I generally get my *** handed to me. I do see that the gonzo combo works wonders, and uptilting is amazing (he gets stuck in it at low % so you can hit him like 4 times)

Wolf's blaster is annoying (online at least) and his freaking reflector has a huge range. I think what I need to do to get better is practice with Wolf, so I know what the hell his moveset is. His moves seriously don't make sense to me.

It can be pretty funny though, at one point I hit him with a hammer after he was doing usmash, or utilt, or uair, or SOMETHING, and he went in one direction and then another before he died. I wish I could have saved the replay.
 

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
5,520
Location
Portugal
You were better than him, you shouldn't have lost :(
I can't say I agree, he has notably faster reflexes than me and better aim/spacing. Or at least it felt that way the few times I played against him. The only thing keeping him back was poor move choices, as Gheb said earlier.
 

DrkKnight

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
61
that was a good wolf, i lost a tourney match to an amazing wolf, and i was metaknight, i should have tried kirby so he couldnt spam
 
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