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Corrin's Weaknesses?

Friendly_Fire

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So recently I've been playing Corrin quite a bit, and I'm really enjoying the character. However, my friends who I train with for locals say that she's completely broken. I was wondering what weaknesses Corrin has so I can explain to them. So far all I have is mediocre recovery and average movespeed.
 

GreenMonkey

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So recently I've been playing Corrin quite a bit, and I'm really enjoying the character. However, my friends who I train with for locals say that she's completely broken. I was wondering what weaknesses Corrin has so I can explain to them. So far all I have is mediocre recovery and average movespeed.
"Mediocre" and "average" are not weaknesses. These adjectives are neutral, so really they're neither assets or flaws to Kettle Korn. It would be like saying a character has a disadvantage if they have average height.

Since the DLC was released about only five days ago, not everything is known about the character. But the biggest thing that I can pick out is her recovery being very linear and easy to predict, which may allow your opponents to get easier edgeguards and gimps on you.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Corrin's air speed is on the mediocre side, which does hurt his recovery. In a way, Corrin's problems are the opposite of Roy's. With Roy, his air speed is good, but not Blazer's horizontal recovery distance. In Corrin's case, while Draconic Ascent offers good horizontal distance, Corrin's mediocre air speed can be a problem if you're trying to recover low.
 

Sovereign

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Corrin's air speed is on the mediocre side, which does hurt his recovery. In a way, Corrin's problems are the opposite of Roy's. With Roy, his air speed is good, but not Blazer's horizontal recovery distance. In Corrin's case, while Draconic Ascent offers good horizontal distance, Corrin's mediocre air speed can be a problem if you're trying to recover low.

Ummm... Roy's horizontal distance on Blazer, when compared to Dragon Ascend does not fall that far behind. Roy is capable of making some very solid horizontal recoveries.

Corrin's issue is that most of his moves have to be committed to, but this is hidden by the incredibly great range he possesses and the additional attack on Dragon Shot. Outside of the commitment issue, I don't see very many problems.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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I love when they say Corrin's broken, which is really not the case. And, again, it is true Corrin is a very new character, so I can see them falling into silly gimmicks like The Bite (when trying to punish a whiffed Shot), Dragon Lunge, Counter (which kill ridiculously early if you're dumb enough to fall for it often).

Weaknesses? I've actually come across these a lot earlier than others seemed to have had. In fact, I pretty much noticed them right off the bat, as soon as I picked her up. For starters, our recovery is indeed very linear (though some may have trouble intercepting it, as they're looking to challenge our super priority Up-B), we aren't the best at approaching (even if we do have great hitboxes, I find them to be punishable at times), and then, there's the fact that we aren't that great at killing when our moves can be intercepted rather easily against smarter players (aka, no falling for F-Smash across the stage, no dumb Counter, Biting or U-Smash).

That's pretty much it, as it goes. This is actually a lot more noticeable against people who know how to counter this. But against less-experienced people, you're the boss.
 

iVoltage

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I love when they say Corrin's broken, which is really not the case. And, again, it is true Corrin is a very new character, so I can see them falling into silly gimmicks like The Bite (when trying to punish a whiffed Shot), Dragon Lunge, Counter (which kill ridiculously early if you're dumb enough to fall for it often).

Weaknesses? I've actually come across these a lot earlier than others seemed to have had. In fact, I pretty much noticed them right off the bat, as soon as I picked her up. For starters, our recovery is indeed very linear (though some may have trouble intercepting it, as they're looking to challenge our super priority Up-B), we aren't the best at approaching (even if we do have great hitboxes, I find them to be punishable at times), and then, there's the fact that we aren't that great at killing when our moves can be intercepted rather easily against smarter players (aka, no falling for F-Smash across the stage, no dumb Counter, Biting or U-Smash).

That's pretty much it, as it goes. This is actually a lot more noticeable against people who know how to counter this. But against less-experienced people, you're the boss.
For a character with so many kill options it can be kinda hard to kill below 130 lol
 

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I've read somewhere that Corrin has difficulty hitting short characters who can avoid his f-smash, just by crouching.
 

SubconsciousRose

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Based on my own experience after playing Corrin a lot for the past week and talking with someone about it:

1. Lacking defensive options
-Very bad OoS options

2. A terrible recovery
-Very susceptible to edgeguarding due to linear nature
-Lunge on wall>jump is punishable during the jump itself having a period of time where nothing can be input
-Bair propels you forward for distance needed but you're completely open when doing so as the hitbox is only behind you

3. Lack of shield safety
-Many moves Corrin has do little damage such as Fair as they're meant to string together but this leads to little shieldstun which reduces her safety against shield

4. Mediocre attack startups on many moves
-Sword characters in general don't have the best of startup but this is usually compensated by large range and shieldstun (which Corrin lacks on many moves)

5. Laughable grab range(and reward)
-The grab range she has is downright poor and that's just a fact
-Fthrow and Bthrow are only positonal and do poor damage with 7%/8% each
-Uthrow and Dthrow can kill but not until pretty late and Dthrow absolutely requires rage in order to kill at reasonable %
-Poor grounded mobility really doesn't help the grab range either

6. Some of the worst move prioritization in the game
-Corrin suffers from something called item priority on her fsmash and neutral b, which is lower than that of a standard attack. In other words, you can literally cancel out her fsmash and neutral b by throwing out a jab, tilt, or aerial of your choice with good timing/spacing

7. Poor mobility (particularly grounded)
-Corrin's movement on the ground is nothing worth writing home about and air mobility isn't particularly crazy either

That being said, I do like Corrin a lot as a character so far regardless of the weaknesses. But having an understanding of your own character's weaknesses and playing around them/minimizing them is a part of the game.

For now people just have MU inexperience with both Corrin and Bayonetta so people going crazy over the positives of the character is pretty much inevitable.
 

JosePollo

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6. Some of the worst move prioritization in the game
-Corrin suffers from something called item priority on her fsmash and neutral b, which is lower than that of a standard attack. In other words, you can literally cancel out her fsmash and neutral b by throwing out a jab, tilt, or aerial of your choice with good timing/spacing
Can you explain to me what this is? As far as I know attacks only clank when they're within a 9% damage difference, anything over that the stronger attack prevails. Corrin's f-smash at close range is 11/12% damage, so anything above 2/3% damage will cause it to clank (indeed, like many jabs or tilts), but well-spaced the hitboxes do 15.2/16.5% damage, meaning only attacks that do 6.2/7.5% damage can clank with it, ruling out almost every jab and a lot of tilts. Also, due to the pretty extreme disjoint, it beats out every transcendent attack. I've yet to have any problems with f-smash outside of normal priority rules.

As for neutral b, however, I did notice that almost anything that hits it nullifies it, but the maximum damage the hitbox can be charged to is 13%, and it's not a transcendent hitbox, so any mild attack is going to beat it out. Aerials are especially good for this since they don't have a clanking animation that causes the character to stall the way grounded moves do.

Also, speaking of mobility, Corrin's initial dash cancels very quickly, which makes his one of the better dash dances in the game without having to double fox trot in order to reverse direction. It makes it very easy to dash in and dash out of someone's space to bait a reaction.
 
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Splebel

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Can you explain to me what this is? As far as I know attacks only clank when they're within a 9% damage difference, anything over that the stronger attack prevails. Corrin's f-smash at close range is 11/12% damage, so anything above 2/3% damage will cause it to clank (indeed, like many jabs or tilts), but well-spaced the hitboxes do 15.2/16.5% damage, meaning only attacks that do 6.2/7.5% damage can clank with it, ruling out almost every jab and a lot of tilts. Also, due to the pretty extreme disjoint, it beats out every transcendent attack. I've yet to have any problems with f-smash outside of normal priority rules.

As for neutral b, however, I did notice that almost anything that hits it nullifies it, but the maximum damage the hitbox can be charged to is 13%, and it's not a transcendent hitbox, so any mild attack is going to beat it out. Aerials are especially good for this since they don't have a clanking animation that causes the character to stall the way grounded moves do.

Also, speaking of mobility, Corrin's initial dash cancels very quickly, which makes his one of the better dash dances in the game without having to double fox trot in order to reverse direction. It makes it very easy to dash in and dash out of someone's space to bait a reaction.
As some one who plays tons of Pac-Man I am familiar with this. Pac-Man fruits are items and key is the strongest at 15% but it will lose to like any hitbox that is not a projectile. This is especially true with disjoints because the hurtbox isn't anywhere newar the hitbox. I'm not sure what priority the hydrant has because it beats more projectiles than key but it will lose if it is hit by a disjoint hitbox or is shielded. I've never tried against Corrin but basically that's what it is.

Another example is Megaman's Fsmash because it seems to have very low priority as every fruit Pac-Man has beats it and cherry only does like 4%.
 

JosePollo

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As some one who plays tons of Pac-Man I am familiar with this. Pac-Man fruits are items and key is the strongest at 15% but it will lose to like any hitbox that is not a projectile. This is especially true with disjoints because the hurtbox isn't anywhere newar the hitbox. I'm not sure what priority the hydrant has because it beats more projectiles than key but it will lose if it is hit by a disjoint hitbox or is shielded. I've never tried against Corrin but basically that's what it is.

Another example is Megaman's Fsmash because it seems to have very low priority as every fruit Pac-Man has beats it and cherry only does like 4%.
Ahh ok. I know what it is now. I'm still not sure Corrin's f-smash has that propery, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dragon Fang Shot does. Like I explained in my earlier post, I haven't had scenarios where my f-smash loses to, say, a multi-hit attack (since most multi-hit attacks are weak, even at the last hit).

I think his f-smash should have transcendent priority :^)
 

SubconsciousRose

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Can you explain to me what this is? As far as I know attacks only clank when they're within a 9% damage difference, anything over that the stronger attack prevails. Corrin's f-smash at close range is 11/12% damage, so anything above 2/3% damage will cause it to clank (indeed, like many jabs or tilts), but well-spaced the hitboxes do 15.2/16.5% damage, meaning only attacks that do 6.2/7.5% damage can clank with it, ruling out almost every jab and a lot of tilts. Also, due to the pretty extreme disjoint, it beats out every transcendent attack. I've yet to have any problems with f-smash outside of normal priority rules.

As for neutral b, however, I did notice that almost anything that hits it nullifies it, but the maximum damage the hitbox can be charged to is 13%, and it's not a transcendent hitbox, so any mild attack is going to beat it out. Aerials are especially good for this since they don't have a clanking animation that causes the character to stall the way grounded moves do.

Also, speaking of mobility, Corrin's initial dash cancels very quickly, which makes his one of the better dash dances in the game without having to double fox trot in order to reverse direction. It makes it very easy to dash in and dash out of someone's space to bait a reaction.
To quote the person I was discussing Corrin with directly about that:

"She also suffers on most moves by the laws of standard prioritization as well. Her fastest move (also out of shield if we take the pitiful grab out of the equation, mind you) deals a mere 2/3% damage (jab 1) after taking 5 frames to execute; you only need a ground attack with 11% damage to beat it out. And most of her moves, being designed to combo into each other, are similarly weak on average and can be beat out by various smashes.

Also keep in mind that, for similar reasons, on clank she will more often than not have a greater recovery time off collision than her opponent.

When combined with her slow startup on most moves, she is at a definitive disadvantage in any situation where both players are throwing out attacks within range of each other."

Also as far as fsmash goes it definitely does seem to have item level priority as I've had numerous instances of people going right through it with moves that do around the same damage if not less than the fsmash.

Also that is a fair point on initial dash but there are many instances I find it difficult to punish with her regardless due to overall mobility and not the greatest of startup on moves. (frame 11 dash attack and etc)
 

JosePollo

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To quote the person I was discussing Corrin with directly about that:

"She also suffers on most moves by the laws of standard prioritization as well. Her fastest move (also out of shield if we take the pitiful grab out of the equation, mind you) deals a mere 2/3% damage (jab 1) after taking 5 frames to execute; you only need a ground attack with 11% damage to beat it out. And most of her moves, being designed to combo into each other, are similarly weak on average and can be beat out by various smashes.

Also keep in mind that, for similar reasons, on clank she will more often than not have a greater recovery time off collision than her opponent.

When combined with her slow startup on most moves, she is at a definitive disadvantage in any situation where both players are throwing out attacks within range of each other."

Also as far as fsmash goes it definitely does seem to have item level priority as I've had numerous instances of people going right through it with moves that do around the same damage if not less than the fsmash.

Also that is a fair point on initial dash but there are many instances I find it difficult to punish with her regardless due to overall mobility and not the greatest of startup on moves. (frame 11 dash attack and etc)
This is true for all swordsmen, though, when talking about frame data. That's why you play them at a specific distance. If you're playing Corrin up close and personal you're probably not going to do as well as you could. You have to kind of strafe around and zone your opponent using his disjoints and space-eating aerials. You have to force your opponents into unfavorable positions with his aerials and punish when they over-extend to try to reach you. It's why I feel he does best against QCQ and doesn't exactly fare well vs. projectiles. The speed of his frame data is not the best, clearly, but it's more than adequate for his playstyle and doesn't really count as a weakness, in my opinion.
 

Hydde

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I have found that speedy characters who can go in and out of corrins moves are the ones who wreck him...specially dudes like little mac who doesnt give a *** about fancy jabs and shids because of power armor ,speed and unreal power.

Mac can go in and out with his rolls and jabs will set you up for some ugly surprises. Also,e Corrin´s bad out of shield options and really mediocre grab game doesnt help, because a pressing mac will quickly put you on the defensive.

He is pretty rough for Corrin
 
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SubconsciousRose

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This is true for all swordsmen, though, when talking about frame data. That's why you play them at a specific distance. If you're playing Corrin up close and personal you're probably not going to do as well as you could. You have to kind of strafe around and zone your opponent using his disjoints and space-eating aerials. You have to force your opponents into unfavorable positions with his aerials and punish when they over-extend to try to reach you. It's why I feel he does best against QCQ and doesn't exactly fare well vs. projectiles. The speed of his frame data is not the best, clearly, but it's more than adequate for his playstyle and doesn't really count as a weakness, in my opinion.
Agreed and I have been playing the zoning game as such with Corrin as that's nothing new to me as a Day 1 Rosalina (or Luma rather) main since Luma is basically her sword of sorts and she's the literal definition of zoning.

Though I agree it does feel legitimately difficult to contest the characters that force Corrin to approach and that is a weakness I find true. One of the people I practice with most is a Pac-man main and it really feels rather difficult to get near him using Corrin between the hydrant and the fruits and his higher mobility with Corrin. I can powershield hydrant/fruit and catch his fruit all I want but it still seems troublesome to actually get near him.

Usually it's the reverse scenario when I play Rosalina because she forces him to play the game at her pace with tools like Gravitational Pull so heavily negating/limiting tools like the fruit and hydrant and even his side b recovery, (bless his soul for putting up with that nonsense as a projectile heavy character on a regular basis) but I digress.
 

CanadianMegaMan

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Another example is Megaman's Fsmash because it seems to have very low priority as every fruit Pac-Man has beats it and cherry only does like 4%.
Mega main here, fairly certain megas fsmash is transcendent priority, in my experience, I've never seen it clank with anything, including pac mans fruits and various other projectiles and items. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure. Video evidence would be nice if you have it. (Sorry if this is off topic)
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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For a character with so many kill options it can be kinda hard to kill below 130 lol
When you're fighting people who h
For a character with so many kill options it can be kinda hard to kill below 130 lol
Like I said, it's not as obvious as it seems. You got kill moves everywhere, but it doesn't help when the stronger ones are rather easily telepraphed. A good player won't likely wait at the ledge for you to F-Smash him, so you either have to carefully aim to punish a landing (by reading their jumps, aerial mobility and wether or not they can weave with B-Reversals). D-Smash requires similiar precision, although it's a bit easier to net punishes off of rolls and even landings when they like to fall with airdodge. U-Smash is sort of out of the question, since it has a horrendous horizontal hitbox that ever rarely kills. Then it's only up to Pinning and Dragon Shot (where you're getting kills off from, rather than The Bite itself). You won't find a smart player falling for the Dragon Shot too often, if at all.

I think our fastest and most reliable KO moves are probably our Throws and F-Tilt, lol. );
 
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SubconsciousRose

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As some one who plays tons of Pac-Man I am familiar with this. Pac-Man fruits are items and key is the strongest at 15% but it will lose to like any hitbox that is not a projectile. This is especially true with disjoints because the hurtbox isn't anywhere newar the hitbox. I'm not sure what priority the hydrant has because it beats more projectiles than key but it will lose if it is hit by a disjoint hitbox or is shielded. I've never tried against Corrin but basically that's what it is.

Another example is Megaman's Fsmash because it seems to have very low priority as every fruit Pac-Man has beats it and cherry only does like 4%.
Speaking from experience and talking about Pac-man with my friend who mains him, I believe the reason Pac-man can beat so many projectiles with his fruit is because each fruit has hurtboxes. (not certain if that's the proper term so sorry if not) So whenever certain(?) projectiles hit them, they can be cancelled out completely.

An example of this is how Samus' fully charged Charge Shot which deals 25% gets completely cancelled out by a Cherry since the Cherry basically just takes the hit completely and negates it. So I don't think Megaman's fsmash priority if anything has to do with it since the fruit can just takes blows from projectiles to stop them.
 
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Splebel

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Speaking from experience and talking about Pac-man with my friend who mains him, I believe the reason Pac-man can beat so many projectiles with his fruit is because each fruit has hurtboxes. (not certain if that's the proper term so sorry if not) So whenever certain(?) projectiles hit them, they can be cancelled out completely.

An example of this is how Samus' fully charged Charge Shot which deals 25% gets completely cancelled out by a Cherry since the Cherry basically just takes the hit completely and negates it. So I don't think Megaman's fsmash priority if anything has to do with it since the fruit can just takes blows from projectiles to stop them.
Yes but the charge shot negates the cherry while Megaman's Fsmash does not. Also most of the time his fruits clash and don't outright beat projectiles but it also depends on the fruit.

Mega main here, fairly certain megas fsmash is transcendent priority, in my experience, I've never seen it clank with anything, including pac mans fruits and various other projectiles and items. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure. Video evidence would be nice if you have it. (Sorry if this is off topic)
That could explain it as Cloud's Limit break blade beam does the same thing.
 
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Jamble

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Corrin suffers from one of the worst games vs shield in the entire cast IMHO. Not only are most of Corrin's moves able to be punished brutally vs shield, but it isn't helped by having a really awful grab game. Corrin requires such tight and precise spacing and timing for attacks to chain together properly and to actually land his/her finishers, that even a half-decent defense can be quite the hurdle. I also find that I have some serious issues against both Mario's and Pit's projectiles too. Corrin's own projectile is also pretty vulnerable from aerial approaches I find. Just my two cents from playing around with Corrin on and off for the last couple days. Corrin is a ton of fun but relies pretty heavily on mind games, a lot of precise spacing and timing, and good reads.

Is it me, or are even a lot of Corrin's quicker moves suffering from pretty significant ending lag too?
 
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Corrout

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I wouldn't necessarily call what I'm about to say weaknesses, but I suppose they are under certain circumstances.

After picking up Corrin and playing around for a long while, in training, against CPUs, and against one of my friends, Corrin is definitely an odd swordsman.

Through testing, the first of his jabs, which sends out a dragon arm, does indeed tipper. But it also knocks the opponent inwards. Which is not particularly good when you're trying to space as a swordsman.

His recovery can be pretty good, but only on stages that reach downwards. Any floating stage like Final Destination? You basically have Up-B to recover and B-air and N-B (releasing the shot immediately and holding B again to charge the bite) to stall somewhat and mess with anybody trying to chase off stage. On stages with walls going down though, a Side-B into a jump into Up-B works pretty much until around you're out of screen.

Having played as a Lucina main on launch, the movement speed is fine if you can work around it.

The problems with shield I couldn't find much help with. The only thing that seems to be an option is to try and space yourself from shield with rolls and hope you aren't punished, or try for an Up-B from shield if they're close enough. Anything else takes too long to come out when shield ends for it to be really effective without getting lucky in my experience so far.

From my play time, B-air is pretty good at killing, but if you're facing away from them, they may predict it. N-air and F-air don't work too well in my opinion since they deal knockback at a high angle, and it's just awkward at high percentages when you hit them off stage with a F-air and they can recover without using a jump.

N-B, however, is surprisingly effective at killing, granted not at lower percentages. As I stated earlier in parentheses, if you tap B and then hold it, it will release a small projectile, but charge the bite. The projectile stuns long enough for a full bite to hit. As of right now, I am testing this against Shulk. It kills at around 107% from center stage of Omega Battlefield (the cool kid FD). I was getting kills as low as 104%, but 107% is when Shulk is completely unable to act before dying. THIS BEING SAID, HOWEVER: Neutral B can be rather predictable. It does however come out quickly, especially within the bite range.

S-B can kill around equal percentage if you don't skewer, but do tipper. Not much else to say about that other than the predictability because you aren't closing the gap as much as if you were going for an aerial.

The weaknesses to most of his moves (bolded and in pink):
  • N-air has ending lag until the mask is gone (double jump allows 1 N-air and the start of a second)
  • U-air less ending lag, full 2 in double jump. Throwing out an U-air at the peak of full hop allows barely enough time to jump before hitting the ground. You practically need to be right at the ground to hit equal height characters in front of you if they are on the ground.
  • B-air has a good amount of starting lag to it. In a short hop, you must do it at the peak of the hop to about 1/3 of the way back down otherwise it won't come out fully. Also predictable. Who ever heard of a swordsman facing away?
  • D-air... [bingo free space] Lasts an extremely long time and sends you straight down to hell (or the stage), CAN SPIKE, BUT RARELY DOES (if the opponent gets hit once and you get hit out of it or the move ends, from my understanding. I would supply a video but 3ds recording. RIP), I only recommend using it if you're up stocks, are good at footstooling into a recovery, or are on a stage with walls down the sides.
  • F-air is a pretty average swordsman swing. Starts above you so it can stop someone above and in front of you.
  • N-B is just odd with having two separate held charges. Not particularly the most useful move in the arsenal, and the projectile is pretty weak to boot. Kind of a weird mix of Samus's charge shot and ZSS's paralyzer. The bite is pretty good if you can get it off, but it's pretty predictable if you're just going for a ranged shot with it, as it has some ending lag to the bite, but not much. I would not recommend charging it unless you're trying to off-stage snipe.
  • U-B is very predictable, both as recovery and out of shield, but does have good priority and range on the hurtbox. Not all that good vertical and horizontal though. Still decent.
  • S-B is pointless to do on the ground if you don't double-tap B for a fast skewer and a bit predictable if you're setting up for a tipper on it as it has a noticeably longer range. The sword does not stop projectiles if you miss the skewer and you're still in the air when the attack stops, and then slide a bit before you can act. Cannot be used again until you land on a platform, kind of like a damaging short range tether. It is possible to hit a target and skewer the ground, but not the target. Kind of a "sourspot tipper", as in it does knockback and damage as if it was a tipper, but you still skewer the ground.
  • D-B is a good counter that hits either side of Corrin straight upwards. It can be used near the top of the stage to get a start kill somewhat easily if you break out of an opponent's combo and they don't retreat, or if you bait them trying to counter one of your combos near the top. Other than that, it's good on occasion, but, like the other swordsmen, it is a noticeable counter, due to the iconic sound and the large shift of the body and positioning.
  • Jab is... strange. Only the first jab has a tipper, which can have inward knockback at the tip, has outwards knockback otherwise. Second and third jab are decent, nothing to write home about. Jab-spam (or whatever the technical term for it is) seems typical to me. If anybody can further comment on jabs, that would be great. But yeah, inwards knockback tipper. I'm counting that as a stupid spacing disadvantage.
  • F-tilt, I have no complaints. Maybe somebody else does.
  • D-tilt, same here
  • U-tilt will not hit short characters, but that's an understandable flaw, since it is an up tilt after all. Edit: it can hit short characters, but you have to be close as the sword raises at a high angle.
  • Dash attack is a cool animation, nothing more. Stays out for a while and has only a bit of ending lag, but the animation is pretty readable, as that's the only move of Corrin's to stay along the ground but stop for a moment before lunging. Yep, Corrin does a bit of a standing slide while starting the dash attack.
Now, by no means am I an expert at the inner workings of Sm4sh. I did not go through and record the frames and cross reference them with every other character or anything, this is what I took at face value through playing Corrin. If anyone sees any corrections or notes I should make, don't be afraid to tell me. Especially since this character is new.



Corrout, out
Edited utilt and a few writing mistakes. And man, mobile is bad at editing. Or my phone is.
 
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