Corrin has the best Counter ?

[Erotic&Heretic]

If he had a weight value of 0 they would. I saw Counter Surge kill Ike at around 13% from a forward smash. Can you imagine what would happen to Mewtwo if his weight was 0?

I guess something like this would happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55T97ZBy58Y

 

[ZephyrZ]

If he had a weight value of 0 they would. I saw Counter Surge kill Ike at around 13% from a forward smash. Can you imagine what would happen to Mewtwo if his weight was 0?

If you're using Ike's Forward Smash against someone with a counter, you're asking to die. Solution to not getting killed early; don't throw around stupidly powerful, stupidly slow attacks.

I personally consider most counters to be very underwhelming. They're so risky to use if your opponent knows how to play around them. If anything, I'm just glad Corrin's is good enough that the reward can outweigh the risk.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If you're using Ike's Forward Smash against someone with a counter, you're asking to die. Solution to not getting killed early; don't throw around stupidly powerful, stupidly slow attacks.

I personally consider most counters to be very underwhelming. They're so risky to use if your opponent knows how to play around them. If anything, I'm just glad Corrin's is good enough that the reward can outweigh the risk.

He was trying to catch Corrin's landing. To his credit, it was beautifully timed, and had it not been for the Press This Button To Win button, the Corrin would've died.

I guess something like this would happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55T97ZBy58Y

That's pretty accurate, yeah.

 

[OceloT42]

Just saw this thread.
So about that little Mac, I'd it possible that the whole match was a setup? You know you can go to settings of a match and set the damage ratio to 2.
I only mention this because my friend and I once had a fun match with this setting on 99 stock, and we were getting hilariously low % kills. We were Clouds.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Just saw this thread.
So about that little Mac, I'd it possible that the whole match was a setup? You know you can go to settings of a match and set the damage ratio to 2.

It's not a setup. Little Mac's Hook Fsmash is meant to deal lots of %, therefore, it's a dangerous move to uses on counters. You can also add that Little Mac does a bad DI here, as he is send perfectly vertically.

What makes Corrin's counter so efficient is the angle, making it good everywhere. On the edges, Ike and Shulk can kill really early too against the hook Fsmash, and they can even kill from the center of FD if Little Mac is around 20%.

I tried all this by charging a bit the Fsmash, of course.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I don't understand this move. Marth's down air doesn't even do THAT much damage! Sakurai, please.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

This time, I guess that rage does matter. I mean, Corrin have 148%. And again, there's the angle.

 

[OceloT42]

I don't understand this move. Marth's down air doesn't even do THAT much damage! Sakurai, please.

Tippered down air against a 130% rage Corrin? What were you expecting, really?
Having said that, it seems almost guaranteed that they're is a nerf waiting around the corner for Counter Surge: Globally Offensive.
(Disclaimer:I love CS pls don't nerf Sakurai.
Also, pls don't kill me CSGO fans)

 

[MarioMeteor]

Tippered down air against a 130% rage Corrin? What were you expecting, really?
Having said that, it seems almost guaranteed that they're is a nerf waiting around the corner for Counter Surge: Globally Offensive.
(Disclaimer:I love CS pls don't nerf Sakurai.
Also, pls don't kill me CSGO fans)

I damn sure wasn't expecting him to die at 33%. I thought it was just the usual ******** when I heard talk that Counter Surge was broken, but now I'm starting to wonder...

 

[OceloT42]

I damn sure wasn't expecting him to die at 33%. I thought it was just the usual ******** when I heard talk that Counter Surge was broken, but now I'm starting to wonder...

I know, mate, I'm starting to wonder as well...

 

[atreyujames]

Counter Surge is NOT broken. It has a wide hitbox and a nice KBG, as well as a good angle for killing anywhere. It is GOOD. but not broken.

As an example, CS can kill a bowser at 0% from a fully charged F smash on FD. From the same distance from the blastzones, Roy's kills Bowser at about 10%. The ~10% is only because his KBG is a bit lower. But Roys has a higher multiplier. Hell, Ikes kills at ~13% and Shulk's Back hitting counter kills at ~5%! Corrin's counter is stronger when an opponent is extending too far with their juggles. Which is good. But the other counters are just as good at what THEY can do.

If CS gets nerfed I will be really salty. It isnt OP or Broken. All it is, is good at catching scrubs who don't learn and throw out unsafe moves. Same as any counter. The only counter that is Broken imo is Witch Time because of how safe it is. Even if you mistime it, BatWithin covers for you.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I would not say that it's broken, but really good because of it's angle.

And still, technically there's stages where it becomes suddenly not that good: Wrecking Crew (if done at the bottom), Hyrule Castle, huge stages such as Palutena's Temple... In a nutshell, stages with a high ceiling.

Let's not forget that the game isn't balanced solely with duels on FD.

 

[Metallinatus]

Ok, I don't know how many people know that.... but Lucina can OHKO Ness from the middle of FD with a countered PK Flash lol
Or at least she could many patches ago.... don't know if that changed.

 

[Jamble]

He was trying to catch Corrin's landing. To his credit, it was beautifully timed, and had it not been for the Press This Button To Win button, the Corrin would've died.

That's pretty accurate, yeah.

That Marth died because he over-extended, not because Counter somehow became a super-op mechanic overnight. Marth's tippers are incredibly strong, and he hit a counter from a character at 130%. I'm pretty sure that's a death sentence against most counters.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Why is this such a big discussion? This is a counter we're talking about. It's incredibly situational, and these crazy results only come from people betting too much on their big, poorly timed attacks. A good or bad counter doesn't really make Corrin better or worse as a fighter; it's only especially effective against worse players desperate for early kills. Since it's only marginally better than any others, I don't think it deserves any special attention.

 

[ARGHETH]

Oh, ffs.

He was trying to catch Corrin's landing. To his credit, it was beautifully timed, and had it not been for the Press This Button To Win button, the Corrin would've died.

Ike was using an Fsmash against a Corrin in the air who wasn't in hitstun. What was he expecting?
Even without Counter, Corrin could have just DL'd him. Or land, shield, and punish the endlag.

I don't understand this move. Marth's down air doesn't even do THAT much damage! Sakurai, please.

130% rage and countered tipper Dair vs a medium weight character. Also, tipper Dair does 14%.
Fun fact: Roy's counter is stronger than Corrin's. 1.35 multiplier vs 1.3 multiplier.
Seriously, at high levels, people land counters maybe once every couple matches, and usually for recoveries. It's a situational move that can get you heavily punished; if you seriously call this broken, then I'd hate to think what you think of Witch Time. Brawl MK level?

 

[OceloT42]

I regret that I can only like the above posts, and not shake the hand of the posters.
You explained it better than I ever could, my dear friends.

 

[abx]

[...]if you seriously call this broken, then I'd hate to think what you think of Witch Time. Brawl MK level?

I think that this is an important point to note: The difference between a move being really good (at least for a counter move) and broken. As a vague definition (don't mind the oxymoron), a broken character would make it unviable to enter any tournament with someone else unless you're super confident that you have enough skill gap in your favour in every round.

 

[Papa Knosp]

I think that this is an important point to note: The difference between a move being really good (at least for a counter move) and broken. As a vague definition (don't mind the oxymoron), a broken character would make it unviable to enter any tournament with someone else unless you're super confident that you have enough skill gap in your favour in every round.

If mewtwo had a weight value of 0 he would literally not be affected by gravity, thus even be killed by little mac's nair at 0%...

 

[Steelballray]

This is a really powerful tool. One that I advice you guys to learn to utilize to its full potential. Some of the scariest combos in the game can be DI'd till they're more of frametraps where you can't hit them back and can't airdodged reliebly. Like the down throw to uair of Sheik and ROB. Learn how to DI and counter. This might give Corrin a serious competitive edge. I mean, if you manage to reduce Sheiks killing abilities and make her scared of using her confirms you could pretty much realistically have made the MU a 50/50 or even better.

Of course, with people adapting to the counter and feeling scared comes a plethora of mind games. Will they attack or wait for you to counter? Conditioning will become a serious factor in any Corrin MU.

You go guys and make Corrin shine. Cloud didn't take more than weeks to shine. I wish for the same to be the case with Corrin.

Edit: also, **** everyone who tries discouraging you from using Corrin or his counter. We are the players. We are given tools and we learn to utilise them. We are not giving the authority to govern what should be and shouldnt be used. That's the definition of a scrub mentality. Don't you dare be affected by such people.

 

[Hydde]

Lets hope nothing happens. They should have tested corrin extensively..so i assume his counter power is intended.

Cloud didn't take more than weeks to shine. I wish for the same to be the case with Corrin.

The thing with cloud is that he has just too many good tools and mobility that it was plain obvious he was very good from minute 1. . His killing power , speed and frame data is off teh charts. All this without even taking his B moves into the equation. is worth noting that his proyectile spam can press opponents too.

Corrin has some glaring pros like range and his counter...but he is not that good once the enemy figure out how to press him and bait his laggy moves. He is not that fast also, but fast enought.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Counter Surge is NOT broken. It has a wide hitbox and a nice KBG, as well as a good angle for killing anywhere. It is GOOD. but not broken.

As an example, CS can kill a bowser at 0% from a fully charged F smash on FD. From the same distance from the blastzones, Roy's kills Bowser at about 10%. The ~10% is only because his KBG is a bit lower. But Roys has a higher multiplier. Hell, Ikes kills at ~13% and Shulk's Back hitting counter kills at ~5%! Corrin's counter is stronger when an opponent is extending too far with their juggles. Which is good. But the other counters are just as good at what THEY can do.

If CS gets nerfed I will be really salty. It isnt OP or Broken. All it is, is good at catching scrubs who don't learn and throw out unsafe moves. Same as any counter. The only counter that is Broken imo is Witch Time because of how safe it is. Even if you mistime it, BatWithin covers for you.

Witch Time can't one-shot you in the middle of the stage, and at least it becomes less effective the more you use it.

Oh, ffs.

Ike was using an Fsmash against a Corrin in the air who wasn't in hitstun. What was he expecting?
Even without Counter, Corrin could have just DL'd him. Or land, shield, and punish the endlag.

I don't think so. It didn't look like he had enough time to do anything, he was just above the ground.

130% rage and countered tipper Dair vs a medium weight character. Also, tipper Dair does 14%.

And that justifies dying at 33%?

Fun fact: Roy's counter is stronger than Corrin's. 1.35 multiplier vs 1.3 multiplier.
Seriously, at high levels, people land counters maybe once every couple matches, and usually for recoveries. It's a situational move that can get you heavily punished; if you seriously call this broken, then I'd hate to think what you think of Witch Time. Brawl MK level?

I really don't see much wrong with Witch Time, sorry to say.

 

[Metallinatus]

Witch Time can't one-shot you in the middle of the stage, and at least it becomes less effective the more you use it.

Uhhh so does CS, counter moves can stale too....

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Uhhh so does CS, counter moves can stale too....

Shulk's Vision obviously does with each consecutive use. Every time you use it, the counter frame windows become smaller, and this happens even when you don't counter any attacks.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Uhhh so does CS, counter moves can stale too....

That's Stale Move Negation, a different mechanic entirely. In addition to staling, the more you use Witch Time, the shorter amount of time they're frozen for.

 

[Metallinatus]

That's Stale Move Negation, a different mechanic entirely. In addition to staling, the more you use Witch Time, the shorter amount of time they're frozen for.

Ok, I may be wrong, but doesn't the slow-mo time gets back up if you let the move cooldown? Which is very similar to how staling works too....
The move has a big flaw if it's time only keep going down and never go back up lol

 

[OceloT42]

That's Stale Move Negation, a different mechanic entirely. In addition to staling, the more you use Witch Time, the shorter amount of time they're frozen for.

why don't u post the link to that Ike video, and then I'll judge.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ok, I may be wrong, but doesn't the slow-mo time gets back up if you let the move cooldown? Which is very similar to how staling works too....
The move has a big flaw if it's time only keep going down and never go back up lol

You refresh moves by using other moves. If you stale your up smash, you have to use a certain number of other moves (I.e. jab, forward smash, pummel, etc.) in order to refresh that up smash.
Witch Time and Vision refresh automatically by you simply not using them.

why don't u post the link to that Ike video, and then I'll judge.

2 minutes and 49 seconds in, unless you want to watch the rest of the video. It's pretty funny.

 

[Steelballray]

Witch Time can't one-shot you in the middle of the stage, and at least it becomes less effective the more you use it.

I don't think so. It didn't look like he had enough time to do anything, he was just above the ground.

And that justifies dying at 33%?

I really don't see much wrong with Witch Time, sorry to say.

Lmao. Stop complaining ffs. People like you are the reason we can't have good things.

You don't get to decide what's op and what's not. Especially not for a character released few days ago. Bayo with witch time can f or b throw you and dsmash you and unless your recovery is one of the few best you're ****ed.

All characters must have powerful tools. Even if they seem really powerful at first. If you're so pissed about Corrin I advice you to learn to play on reaction instead of anticipation like FG scrubs do. You don't throw smashes off of reads unless you're prepared for the consequences.

P.s Ike's f-smash uncharged can kill at like 40% near the ledge. Go complain about it.

 

[Metallinatus]

You refresh moves by using other moves. If you stale your up smash, you have to use a certain number of other moves (I.e. jab, forward smash, pummel, etc.) in order to refresh that up smash.
Witch Time and Vision refresh automatically by you simply not using them.

So it is similar to staling.... both will refresh, if you do something else instead of spam counter.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Lmao. Stop complaining ffs. People like you are the reason we can't have good things.

You don't get to decide what's op and what's not. Especially not for a character released few days ago. Bayo with witch time can f or b throw you and dsmash you and unless your recovery is one of the few best you're ****ed.

All characters must have powerful tools. Even if they seem really powerful at first. If you're so pissed about Corrin I advice you to learn to play on reaction instead of anticipation like FG scrubs do. You don't throw smashes off of reads unless you're prepared for the consequences.

P.s Ike's f-smash uncharged can kill at like 40% near the ledge. Go complain about it.

First of all, nobody is complaining, second of all, who said I was deciding what is and what is not OP. I don't know who pissed in your Cheerios but you can **** right off.

So it is similar to staling.... both will refresh, if you do something else instead of spam counter.

I see what you mean, I suppose on paper it's similar.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Corrin's counter might be better than Bayonetta's, it might not. However, don't use Witch Time's deterioration as a reason why it's a worse counter. After ten seconds you only lose about .5 a second of slow motion, and it becomes fully charged at 20 seconds. If you're spamming the move enough for it to deteriorate then you're probably not playing correctly.

A good or bad counter doesn't really make Corrin better or worse as a fighter; it's only especially effective against worse players desperate for early kills. Since it's only marginally better than any others, I don't think it deserves any special attention.

I was on board with your post until the second half. I also don't believe Corrin's counter is broken (people are just overreacting because there's finally a useful counter in the game), but lets not delude ourselves into thinking that it's not good. Its existence alone force opponents to think twice before throwing out an attack at you. (This is mostly to everybody trying to downplay the move, not just you)

 

[ARGHETH]

That's Stale Move Negation, a different mechanic entirely. In addition to staling, the more you use Witch Time, the shorter amount of time they're frozen for.

But it recharges. If you use it every 20 seconds, the time shortening is negated. Also, Bat Within exists.

2 minutes and 49 seconds in, unless you want to watch the rest of the video. It's pretty funny.

Okay, this is even more stupid. Ike was charging an Fsmash after Corrin had jumped and was moving towards him. He was obviously out of hitstun at that point...He most likely was trying to bait out the counter and failed completely.

And that justifies dying at 33%?

With that much rage against a midweight in the air after countering a 14% move? Yes.

I really don't see much wrong with Witch Time, sorry to say.

You think Counter Surge is broken and think Witch Time is fine?
...
I don't even.

 

[MarioMeteor]

But it recharges. If you use it every 20 seconds, the time shortening is negated. Also, Bat Within exists.

I don't see your point.

Okay, this is even more stupid. Ike was charging an Fsmash after Corrin had jumped and was moving towards him. He was obviously out of hitstun at that point...He most likely was trying to bait out the counter and failed completely.

Maybe. His reasons for doing it aside, the sheer fact that Ike, one of the heaviest characters in the game, can die that early to a Counter, of all moves, is kind of disgusting to me.

With that much rage against a midweight in the air after countering a 14% move? Yes.

I always said Rage was a stupid mechanic... Regardless, from the looks of things, he could've died even before 33%.

You think Counter Surge is broken and think Witch Time is fine?
...
I don't even.

Witch Time isn't fine, but it isn't broken either. I'm just sayin, Ganondorf can't kill at 33% unless he somehow lands a Warlock Punch. You don't think it kind of ridiculous that Corrin can with a Counter?

 

[ARGHETH]

Maybe. His reasons for doing it aside, the sheer fact that Ike, one of the heaviest characters in the game, can die that early to a Counter, of all moves, is kind of disgusting to me.

It was Ike's charged Fsmash, sweetspotted by the looks of it. On 3DS FD (bigger blastzones than WiiU's FD/Omegas), Ike's charged Fsmash starts killing on Ike from ~35. With smaller blastzones and counter multiplying damage, it's really not that ridiculous.

Witch Time isn't fine, but it isn't broken either. I'm just sayin, Ganondorf can't kill at 33% unless he somehow lands a Warlock Punch. You don't think it kind of ridiculous that Corrin can with a Counter?

Bayonetta can kill at 0 if she lands it anywhere near the ledge. This is in addition to Bat Within, which means if you try attacking her after the counter frames are over, she takes no knockback, while Corrin's just stuck in endlag, and the fact that WT slows for the same amount of time no matter what it was hit by while CS does proportional damage.

 

[Nah]

Why is this such a big discussion?

Same reason ZSS and Meta Knight are often complained about: people don't like knowing that they can die at like 40% from one mistake.



Some of you could probably use to chill a bit though lol
I don't think that Counter Surge is broken really, and while I do like watching people swing at me and I go RAWR and they die at like 40% in some situations, I really wouldn't mind if it got nerfed either. At the end of the day it's a counter, and you shouldn't be relying on a counter for damage or kills or protection, especially if you're at high or top level play. It's not the crux of Corrin's game plan, so it becoming "worse" (worse in quotations marks because even if it got nerfed it'd probably be roughly Ike or Roy level power, which isn't even bad lol) wouldn't really make any significant impact on the character.

What I don't understand is why anyone would think that Witch Time+Bat Within isn't as bad as Counter Surge.

 

[Metallinatus]

Same reason ZSS and Meta Knight are often complained about: people don't like knowing that they can die at like 40% from one mistake.

It's literally better than dying at 70% from an OP Falcon Fair without without making a mistake....

 

[Splebel]

This might not be the best place for this comment but because of the animation of Corrin stomping the ground making no sense in the air I kinda feel like if they were to nerf it a good way would be to cut the knockback/multiplier of his counter in the air while keeping it the same on the ground. Like Little Mac's KO Punch. That way, it's a great counter on the ground still but doesn't have the problem of killing super early if used in the air. Doesn't prevent kills from higher platforms but those should be expected.

 

[OceloT42]

Fellows, please stop using Witch Time to compare. You can't really classify it as a counter, just like Dragon Lunge isn't exactly a tether. Witch Time only functions like a counter.

You refresh moves by using other moves. If you stale your up smash, you have to use a certain number of other moves (I.e. jab, forward smash, pummel, etc.) in order to refresh that up smash.
Witch Time and Vision refresh automatically by you simply not using them.

2 minutes and 49 seconds in, unless you want to watch the rest of the video. It's pretty funny.

What were you expecting? Ike has the third strongest smash in game, at full charge, going up against a counter. Had the directions been reversed (i.e Ike at the ledge and someone approaching him) literally any counter would have destroyed him. You can't seriously tell me that you're annoyed about that, because that kill was fully justified.

 

[MarioMeteor]

What were you expecting? Ike has the third strongest smash in game, at full charge, going up against a counter. Had the directions been reversed (i.e Ike at the ledge and someone approaching him) literally any counter would have destroyed him. You can't seriously tell me that you're annoyed about that, because that kill was fully justified.

It would've been justified if Ike were about a good 40-50% higher. And so you know, counters are damage dependent, not knockback dependent, so the strength of Ike's attack doesn't matter, which is why the Marth one is ridic. I'm pretty sure no other counter would've killed him that effectively from the middle of the stage. I don't even think it was at full charge.