Considering lag...are the outcomes of online matches truly a reflection of skill?

[SKnickers03]

we all know how horrible the lag is...its something we've all had to grow accustomed to...and i bet that pretty much everyone who has played online has encountered a moment in which that split second of lagged framing closed the window on a perfectly positioned combo, smash, or spike...not to mention the overall feeling of disorientation

with that in mind...are these online matches really reflection of a person's skill?? it occurred to me that the legitimacy of online Brawl tournaments (which have already started popping up everywhere) hangs in the balance. should we even waste our time with them??

 

[Truethirdeye]

I don't know about the lag, I know I don't really lag that often ever since I slipped a piece of tin foil under my wii, I think the 2 minute brawls with anyone don't decide a persons skill. I remember I ran into a guy who was Ike a straight 6 games in a row and he kept winning, until I was Ike and I kicked his rear. But when people use the best character to get the most kills in 2 mins over and over, thats a slap to the face in terms of style. I of course don't do this and choose a different character each time. I wish nintendo would allow you to change the rules for brawls with anyone, 2 mins is ********.

 

[Kruton]

Lag is NOT horrible for Brawl, I'm tired of hearing this. It's your connection nucca. If I can play someone from California (from PA), and not notice a delay more than like .1 sec, lag isn't bad. Go ahead and tell me an online game that NEVER (ever) experiences lag. Or shut up.

I'll still 3 stock you online.

 

[aaron123]

Lag is NOT horrible for Brawl, I'm tired of hearing this. It's your connection nucca. If I can play someone from California (from PA), and not notice a delay more than like .1 sec, lag isn't bad. Go ahead and tell me an online game that NEVER (ever) experiences lag. Or shut up.

I'll still 3 stock you online.

I think you misspelled something--you meant to say: Lag IS horrible for brawl.

I think I've gotten a green connection only once against someone. The rest have had moderate button lag which you can play through, but is still a big nuisance. Yesterday, however, I had this awful, awful lag against a guy in PA (I'm in FL). It would go to a standstill for about 40 sec-1 minute then there would be regular gameplay for about 2 minutes then go back to lag, rinse repeat.

Saying lag isn't bad for Brawl is total BS. I don't think I've never had this kind of bad lag for any online game I've ever played online since I got into online gaming back in 2001. If there's ever lag like this, it's usually something up with the server that fixes itself within the same day or the next. There's never this kind of lag that Brawl is having a ****ing month after it comes out. Cut the crap.

 

[SKnickers03]

Lag is NOT horrible for Brawl, I'm tired of hearing this. It's your connection nucca. If I can play someone from California (from PA), and not notice a delay more than like .1 sec, lag isn't bad. Go ahead and tell me an online game that NEVER (ever) experiences lag. Or shut up.

I'll still 3 stock you online.

i can see ive brought up a touchy subject for you

 

[Zenonfury]

Haha.. lag isn't that bad...worst i played in was about 1.5 second lag, you just have to have some extra foresight, I think its fine. There is luck in any game so yah 2 mins increases chance of lucky wins but overall if your good, you'll win

 

[zeionut]

i think lag is horrible
i hate the fact that yesterday i got 3 stocked by a dk because there was such a big move delay that wenever i tryed sweetspotting with marth on FD i got sucked into the little corner under the edge or i was like 3 inches below the edge
online takes no skill in my opinion and nintendo needs to fix this move delay crap

 

[Kruton]

There are some network issues that need to be resolved, but I still don't see how it's justified saying lag is BAD for Brawl. I would easily say that 9 out of my 10 matches are lag free or minimal, hardly negligible lag, with maximum contiguous distance included. My connection is nothing remarkable, it's standard DSL.

 

[Ganny]

Lag isn't an issue for testing a person's strength in brawl. It isn't substantial enough. At best, it is just a bother just like tripping. Lag DOES slow down the speed of the game compared to playing offline. Although it is not enough to make the game too fast, just takes about 2-3 seconds to get used to again.

 

[Vice Lord]

I have noticed some lag, but usually against friends its non-existant, or half a second. I'm Canadian and only play other Canadians online though, and if said Canadian people would like a match with someone from Ontario they could message me...

 

[Truethirdeye]

"At best, it is just a bother just like tripping. "

I like tripping...MUSHROOMS! HAHAHAHAHA

 

[GraveNeedle]

With Friends, right? O_o With Anyone obviously doesn't show skill. It shows who can use Ike's FSmash the most.

In With Friends though, I've almost never had a problem. Granted, I've only fought two friends so far, but the only time there was lag was when all three of us were in one match.

Of course there's button-delays in there, but that's perfectly normal. Remember that this is a peer-to-peer connection. Sparring the technological stuff, it's actually a blessing that there's a bit of delay. And maybe it's just me, but I don't even find it a hinderance...it takes a few matches getting used to it, but afterwards, I don't play any differently with the delay then without it.

In answer to your question, even after what I just said, I don't think online tournaments should be taken seriously. You'll always have some crybabies out there whining that "they would have won if there wasn't lag/delay," or some crap like that.

 

[LoGiKAeRiS]

Haha.. lag isn't that bad...worst i played in was about 1.5 second lag, you just have to have some extra foresight, I think its fine. There is luck in any game so yah 2 mins increases chance of lucky wins but overall if your good, you'll win

1.5 second lag is terrible for any online games... you can register instantly and that can only make you weaker

 

[Greenpoe]

Guys, it isn't the lag, it's your lag, since it is your fault for not having a connection to meet your expectations.

 

[kenkowtow]

Guys, it isn't the lag, it's your lag, since it is your fault for not having a connection to meet your expectations.

... I do not seem to understand why it could be person X's fault when he has FiOS and going against person Z who has Dial-up.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I've played great matches on wifi, the lag isn't really a problem at all. The only lag that bothers me is the slowdown type of lag...

And no I don't actually have dialup lol

 

[Kyle29]

I don't like playing online because like the TC said it feels very disoriented. I dont have the best connection, but yes... face it the online is pretty awful. There are games old and new that I play through the internet lag free (keep in mind my connection is horse****) and a lot of those games were created SIX years ago. Those of you who say there is no lag either only play online, or have blazing superfast internet.

Yeah but online isn't worth my time it takes about 15 min to find people anyway.

 

[SKnickers03]

I don't like playing online because like the TC said it feels very disoriented. I dont have the best connection, but yes... face it the online is pretty awful. There are games old and new that I play through the internet lag free (keep in mind my connection is horse****) and a lot of those games were created SIX years ago. Those of you who say there is no lag either only play online, or have blazing superfast internet.

Yeah but online isn't worth my time it takes about 15 min to find people anyway.

since nintendo has supposedly improved their servers following the online fiasco that occured during the few days post-launch after everyone and their mother was trying to connect online, finding ppl has become less of a problem...and in comparison to the initial online experience, online battles have improved somewhat...

i wonder, though, if this would have been be less of an issue if nintendo wouldve just allowed for hardline connections on the wii

 

[Syde7]

Its a problem for me. Im on a super fast internet connection at school, but the thing is- there are literally dozens of people using the same connection. That can't be helped.

When I complain about lag, its not the LAG ITSELF, that bothers me... but what I can't do because of it. I think of it like diabetes ('m diabetic btw)... I don't hate the condition, I hate that lit limits what I can and can't eat. I've accepted it as something that I've gotta deal with, but that doesn't mean I gotta like it.

Comparing it to Lag in brawl... I know it happens, but I've come to realize that w/ my situation there's not much I can do to stop it. BUT, that still DOES mean that I can gripe about it b/c it seriously hinders what I (and the other person can do).

Example: I've baited someone into my fav combo, but because of the lag, It is impossible for me to react as quickly. Im assuming they're responding one way, and so I input the commands accordingly... only to find out too late they did the opposite. I find it extremely frustrating when chasing people off-stage w/ a WoP and Up+B (Im a ROB user) because I find out too late that they've jumped or airdodged. Im so used to inputting the commands quickly and accurately, that it is nearly impossible to do it w/o adjusting the timing that I've practiced so hard to get down for "real life" play.

Of course, the other person suffers from the same weakness, so you COULD say that puts us on an even playing field. And, to some extent it does. But, its like watching two boxers box eachother with their dominant hand tied behind their back. Sure they are on an equal field-- but they're skills are 'dumbed down' so much that its a toss-up as to which one is really better.

 

[Jester Kirby]

I think online shows plenty of skill. You're both equally hindered by the lag so it shows who can adabt better. IMO the button delay only takes a few minutes at the most to get used to.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I think online shows plenty of skill. You're both equally hindered by the lag so it shows who can adabt better. IMO the button delay only takes a few minutes at the most to get used to.

this is true ONLY if you ONLY play online, i platy more Offline with friends then i do online so every time i try to swich back its like =.= ugh...

And to the person who FLIPPED OUT about lag and nintendo, heres a chill pill...err take two, there small

 

[Ganny]

I guess you have to realize that you can give someone everything in the world but they will still find something to complain about.

Be happy with what you have

 

[aznegglover]

Meh, one of the forums I visit has a whole stickied thread dedicated to Brawl

There's usually no lag for 1 v 1, and lag only appears in the very beginning (with the entrances), if any

 

[SKnickers03]

i just finished playing an "anyone" match online...it felt like i was flipping through a photo album filled with progressing pictures...turning the page every 15 seconds or so

 

[HolyChef]

i would say no. i say that because one can be better than someone online, but not in person, which is the true reflection, because that one person has adapted to the lag and integrated it intentionally or unintentionally to their playstyle.

 

[Dime]

Yes and No. Even the best player will not win every match because of lag but they should win a majority of the time. Online matches are still a good test of skill even with lag, however it takes a series of matches to determine skill and compensate for losses due to lag.

 

[shadydentist]

Online play is truly reflective of skill in online play, which differs slightly from skill in an offline setting. You can adapt to lag, and certain strategies are more effective than others in online play.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

It depends on your play style, characters, connection, and how well you've adapted to the lag. Some people, who complain about lag on a TV set, probably wouldn't do as well online. And it's a lot harder to approach online than IRL, because you have to do things based on where you think the opponent will be 2 seconds from now. Some characters, such as Zelda, can't sweetspot their attacks as well online because of the amount of lag.

If you want to see a true reflection of skill, play them in real life.

 

[Lenvil]

I guess you have to realize that you can give someone everything in the world but they will still find something to complain about.

Be happy with what you have

you're so right.

 

[Firestorm88]

Of course it's a reflection of skill. However, it's different from the skill required for offline. They're almost two seperate games. I rarely play online as I would rather be a good offline player. However, there are plenty of people who are very skilled online and play online.

Only truly lag-free match I had was with someone a block or two away.

 

[Illesial]

Of course it's a reflection of skill. However, it's different from the skill required for offline. They're almost two seperate games. I rarely play online as I would rather be a good offline player. However, there are plenty of people who are very skilled online and play online.

Only truly lag-free match I had was with someone a block or two away.

I agree. It's not that it doesn't take skill, it's a different set of skills.

 

[aaron123]

you're so right.

No he's not. Sure, people will complain about anything through hyperbole, but this is an actual legitimate problem.

PC has had online play since the 90's. Right now, you could go on a game of Counter-Strike/Battlefield/etc. and not have any sort of problem with button delay whatsoever if you get on a stable server (which the vast majority are).

Nintendo has had forays into online in the past since Mario Kart, and even their first attempt they got it right. There's a slim chance you get stuttering on MK, but definitely not button lag.

Then along comes SSBB. Fans, such as myself, are in awe waiting for it to come out, simply because it's a Smash that you can actually play online. It's been one month since it came out, and there are still button lag problems. The thing of it is, it's only very rarely where the lag is negligible. On average it's about .5-1 sec. That's ridiculous, by today's standards. I've rarely even played my Brawl copy in the last 2 weeks because I was hoping mainly to play it online, and since my friends irl always get whooped they don't want to play. I'm sure that, looking at the "Brawl Online: Pathetic" thread that's gotten to 10 pages, other people feel the same disappointment that I've felt.

You can say people are just whining or complaining on things like "Ashley didn't make it in wtf?!!" but not this. A lot of people were hoping this feature would be great. Nintendo failed on that, despite flaunting the feature in our faces and delaying the game twice just to work out all of the kinks.

 

[Eff_Soul]

I almost never lag and thats because I use my NEW wireless broadband connection.Dont blame lag,blame yourself for your lackluster connection and rolling into fsmashes like a *******.Fueling a game and a internet is two different things.Just because your internet runs fine,doesnt mean that your game will because its going to need more effiency.

 

[Blazer]

Lag fails. Period. But that doesn't mean it doesn't take skill to win still. I play the exact same on and offline with, or without lag, unless there's that massive freeze frame like lag, which is rare. It's really not that different, you people are just overexaggerating the problem IMO. Improve your connection, and stop whining. At least you have the game online.

About a week ago, I couldn't even play the game online for some random reason, I didn't touch the game at all, you know why? It's no fun facing the computers. Be glad you're not one of those people with no online connection, cause you'd never make it. (BTW, Aluminum foil ftw)

 

[SKnickers03]

No he's not. Sure, people will complain about anything through hyperbole, but this is an actual legitimate problem.

PC has had online play since the 90's. Right now, you could go on a game of Counter-Strike/Battlefield/etc. and not have any sort of problem with button delay whatsoever if you get on a stable server (which the vast majority are).

Nintendo has had forays into online in the past since Mario Kart, and even their first attempt they got it right. There's a slim chance you get stuttering on MK, but definitely not button lag.

Then along comes SSBB. Fans, such as myself, are in awe waiting for it to come out, simply because it's a Smash that you can actually play online. It's been one month since it came out, and there are still button lag problems. The thing of it is, it's only very rarely where the lag is negligible. On average it's about .5-1 sec. That's ridiculous, by today's standards. I've rarely even played my Brawl copy in the last 2 weeks because I was hoping mainly to play it online, and since my friends irl always get whooped they don't want to play. I'm sure that, looking at the "Brawl Online: Pathetic" thread that's gotten to 10 pages, other people feel the same disappointment that I've felt.

You can say people are just whining or complaining on things like "Ashley didn't make it in wtf?!!" but not this. A lot of people were hoping this feature would be great. Nintendo failed on that, despite flaunting the feature in our faces and delaying the game twice just to work out all of the kinks.

i agree 110%

and i see a lot of criticism in here regarding other people's internet connection...i guess in the tech world the issue of internet connections can be likened to a ***** contest

 

[lumberheartwood]

In responding to the original question, every second matters in a battle, especially in tournament battles. Lag means a second where the opponent might have got ahead and earns the title of the victory. So no, online matches don't necesarrily reflect a person's skills. However, thats just one match. If you play someone consecutively and they are horrible in those such as being all over the place or just spamming a few moves, then that could necessarily reflect their gameplay and shows how bad they are.

Lag however is just one factor that can be overlooked. If your dedicated to Smash, practice makes perfect and a person can learn how to deal with lag and turn it into an advantage. See, this question is truly testing a person's ideals. Bravo for making this thread.

 

[lengeta]

It takes a different play-style to deal with lag. IMO, it's still most definitely skill, but online skill says little for your offline skill.

 

[Sculelos]

It takes a different play-style to deal with lag. IMO, it's still most definitely skill, but online skill says little for your offline skill.

I agree with this and everyone's been saying it. I pretty much just stick to stronger characters that don't need to sweetspot most of their attacks because I find that seems to bring the best results online.

Sometimes when playing online there is no noticeable lag and other times I'm absolutely crippled in my playstyle because of it. For those reasons I don't think online will ever be as good as offline in smash until we can connect instantly with people around the internet.