Complete Series Discussion

[Louie G.]

This is a thread I created to talk about which series are "complete" in terms of character representation and which characters other series need to become complete.
This is a popular topic when it comes to selecting characters for Smash 4, and is brought up frequently in threads like the Roster Discussion Thread. I figured that this was important enough to make a thread about.
For me, I believe that Zelda, Kirby, and Star Fox are complete as they are at the moment.
Mario can never truly be completed, as there are too many reoccurring and important characters. We have the main 4, but Toad, Bowser Jr, and/or Paper Mario wouldn't hurt.
DK, Mother, Kid Icarus, and Metroid are four series that I don't consider complete.
DK needs K. Rool and Dixie to be completed, as many people can agree on.
Mother, although a niche series, can warrant Porky to complete the series if Sakurai decides to do so.
Kid Icarus needs Palutena, and that's about it. KI is small as well, although Palutena is to KI as Zelda is to Zelda (the series is named after Palutena in Japan).
Metroid needs Ridley. That is all.
I think that this topic can help us decide which characters are most important to be added to the next Smash, and which characters are a little bit unnecessary.
So let's discuss, shall we?

 

[YoshiandToad]

Hmmm...technically Starfox COULD have Krystal, Kirby COULD have Waddle/Bandanna Dee and Zelda COULD have Tingle/Impa/Tetra/Toon Zelda/Toon Ganondorf. But most agree these franchises don't require any more candidates.

I think the topic is somewhat down to opinion when it comes to Mario. Some believe it's fine with the main four Mario characters, others see Bowser Jr as rounding it off, some see Toad as finishing off the Big 8 and the last playable protagonist as important, some think Waluigi would round out the villains to heroes ratio whilst giving a nod to the spinoff sports games(which sell really well) and some would prefer Paper Mario to extend a nod towards the popular Mario RPGs(being the most popular series of these overall). I've been seeing Rosalina popping up sporadically as well, and of course there's Geno...I still don't get Geno.

Basically the big three of Mario importance are

Toad; very famous, been in the games longer than any other, last playable protagonist character yet to be included, last member of the "Big 8" to be included.

Bowser Jr.; most important villain outside Bowser at this point, hugely popular, large active role in the games.

Paper Mario; branches out to the popular Mario RPG games and is instantly recognisable from regular Mario.

Should Waluigi, Rosalina or Geno also be considered to round out the Mario roster and make it complete? Are any more important than the above three? I'd like to hear cases for all of them, as I feel it'd make for interesting debate(and maybe someone can finally explain Geno's popularity to me).

 

[SuperBrawler]

What about F-Zero.

 

[Louie G.]

Hmmm...technically Starfox COULD have Krystal, Kirby COULD have Waddle/Bandanna Dee and Zelda COULD have Tingle/Impa/Tetra/Toon Zelda/Toon Ganondorf. But most agree these franchises don't require any more candidates.

I think the topic is somewhat down to opinion when it comes to Mario. Some believe it's fine with the main four Mario characters, others see Bowser Jr as rounding it off, some see Toad as finishing off the Big 8 and the last playable protagonist as important, some think Waluigi would round out the villains to heroes ratio whilst giving a nod to the spinoff sports games(which sell really well) and some would prefer Paper Mario to extend a nod towards the popular Mario RPGs(being the most popular series of these overall). I've been seeing Rosalina popping up sporadically as well, and of course there's Geno...I still don't get Geno.

Basically the big three of Mario importance are

Toad; very famous, been in the games longer than any other, last playable protagonist character yet to be included, last member of the "Big 8" to be included.

Bowser Jr.; most important villain outside Bowser at this point, hugely popular, large active role in the games.

Paper Mario; branches out to the popular Mario RPG games and is instantly recognisable from regular Mario.

Should Waluigi, Rosalina or Geno also be considered to round out the Mario roster and make it complete? Are any more important than the above three? I'd like to hear cases for all of them, as I feel it'd make for interesting debate(and maybe someone can finally explain Geno's popularity to me).

Thanks for starting up the discussion. Hopefully we can get a heated debate going soon, who knows.
I agree with your points, especially about the Mario big 3. Those are the 3 I always consider, but I have Rosalina and Waluigi in the back of my mind as slight possibilities.
I don't understand Geno's popularity either. He just kind of blew up during Brawl speculation somehow.

What about F-Zero.

I'm a bit iffy about F-Zero.
It's relatively big compared to some other series with 2 reps (Mother) so I guess it could warrant a 2nd character.
The question is Goroh or Black Shadow. Both are villains of the series, who could be used to round out the F-Zero cast and give it a well deserved 2nd rep.
The only problem is how F-Zero is "dead," so Sakurai might just be done with it.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

Mario has way too many characters too many characters too be called complete.
Zelda is compete (for now).
Pokémon needs Mewtwo.
DKC needs K. Rool. Dixie too, if time allows it.
Kirby, though complete, it wouldn't hurt if it got another rep (as long as DKC got its fair share as well).
Metroid only truly needs Samus and Mr. I'm Too Big! ( ), but Kraid would be nice as well.
Star Fox is and will always be complete.
Yoshi could use Kamek.
F-Zero's good.
EarthBound (See Star Fox)
Fire Emblem could use Chrom.
Wario's fine.
KI doesn't need anything (yet).
Pikmin's all good.
AC doesn't need anything either.
Wii Fit... is Wii Fit.

 

[SuperBrawler]

What about the return of Dr.Mario? I would totally love that.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

What about the return of Dr.Mario? I would totally love that.

Only if he counts as his own series and is a bit different this round.

 

[Louie G.]

Dr. Mario?
Well, I think that he would be better as an alternate costume, as alt. costumes will likely be making an appearance in Smash 4.
I love Doc, and I would be happy to see him back in action. I just think the only chance he's got is as a costume.

 

[LoneKonWolf]

Mario - too many characters to be fully complete, though it is rounded off at the mean time (Mario, luigi, peach, bower, and technically Yoshi)
Zelda - fully complete as It can ever be (triforce trio, plus younger link)
Kirby - its rounded off good and it does not technically need anybody else, but it can always use the side kick(waddle dee)
Pokémon - Brawl Pokémon plus mewtwo is all the series needs
DKC - for donkey Kong to be fully complete, it will need donkey Kong, diddy Kong, Dixie Kong, and K Rool. though there is a great chance that might not happen
Metroid - needs samus and Ridley
star fox - all star fox really needed was fox and wolf, it doesn't need anybody else (though I would like Falco to stay)
Yoshi? - umm . . . . . . I'm pretty sure Yoshi needs no one
F-zero - its decline and its low popularity just makes it that we only need captain falcon
Mother - kind of like star fox but on a smaller scale, it really only needed ness, though Lucas isn't bad
fire emblem - it has a really diverse cast, so much that's its impossible to see what characters perfectly rep the franchise, so I'll leave at this mark and say it only needs marth (most well know, appeared the most, also some sort of mascot for the series)
kid Icarus - really only needs pit, (though this is only for now)
Wario ware - doesn't need anybody else
pikmin - its good with Olimar
Animal Crossing - can be perfectly represented with the villager
Wii fit? - does this count?
my opinions

 

[Louie G.]

I think that the Yoshi series is actually a bit under-repped.
It's relatively big, spin-off or not. I wouldn't complain if we got Kamek.
Then again, Yoshi's Island CAN be repped perfectly with Yoshi alone, although I don't think Smash does a really good job making Yoshi feel Yoshi's Island-esque.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

I think that the Yoshi series is actually a bit under-repped.
It's relatively big, spin-off or not. I wouldn't complain if we got Kamek.
Then again, Yoshi's Island CAN be repped perfectly with Yoshi alone, although I don't think Smash does a really good job making Yoshi feel Yoshi's Island-esque.

Yes.
Just yes.
If EarthBound warranted two reps, why doesn't Yoshi?

 

[PixelPasta]

I think Mario would be nicely wrapped up with Toad. I am a very strong supporter of Toad, so in my opinion, Mario is not complete without him.
Donkey Kong is in serious need of more reps - namely Dixie Kong and of course, King K. Rool.
Both the Yoshi and Wario franchises are fine with just their respective protagonists.
In my opinion, Tingle would be the next most deserving representative for Zelda, but he isn't entirely necessary.
Bring back Mewtwo and Pokemon is complete.
Kirby definitely feels complete, but Waddle Dee wouldn't hurt.
I've always felt that Metroid is fine with just Samus.
For Star Fox... I'm iffy on Krystal. It wouldn't be too awful if she got in, but four reps seems a bit excessive for Star Fox.
Kid Icarus desperately needs Palutena.
Fire Emblem could definitely have three reps - the question is, which three? The only one that I would personally guarantee is Marth. Besides him, it could be Roy, Ike, Lyn, Chrom, Lucina, Robin... who knows.
I really do not think Earthbound needs another rep. Same goes for Pikmin and F-Zero.

To sum it up:
Toad, Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Mewtwo, and Palutena are necessary to 'complete' their respective franchises, in my opinion.
Tingle, Waddle Dee, Krystal, and another Fire Emblem rep would also be fine, but aren't completely needed.
All the other series are fine.

 

[SureNsync]

I hate to hear that the Mother series is complete. Small franchises always has the most interesting characters.

How can Sakurai not see the Masked Man's potential?

 

[Louie G.]

I hate to hear that the Mother series is complete. Small franchises always has the most interesting characters.

How can Sakurai not see the Masked Man's potential?

That's the thing.
Some series have a lot of untapped potential, but are too small to warrant those characters (like Mother) or too big to completely rep in Smash (Mario).
I don't believe Mother is complete without villain though. I would love Porky.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

EarthBound, tbh, has been complete since the days of the N64.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Completed series:

Mario just needs the 4 characters to tell the story. The Mario Bros go out and save Peach from Bowser. That's all it needs.

I could argue that Zelda only needs the Triforce trio, and I would think it'd be okay to just have them, but the Toon Link design has gone off to so many different games that it's warranted.

Kirby is just perfect. Waddle Dee would be and acts as a bonus character as a sort, but he doesn't have too much of an identity himself, he's much like the Toad of Kirby. We have the 3 main reoccuring characters, nothing else is needed.

Star Fox could potentially go with just Fox and Wolf, but Falco does represent Fox's teammates, which is a big part of Star Fox too. It's definitely complete.

Yoshi and Wario don't really need other characters, since their universes are just spin-offs from Mario's, though Yoshi's more so than Wario's. Point is, we shouldn't get too many characters from the Mario universe, so I feel they sit fine where they are, even if I'd like Kamek.

Others such as F-Zero and the Retro series don't really have too many super important characters so that it's necessary to have multiple characters from there.

Needs more representation:

I wouldn't say Mother is complete, it needs a villain to represent, which would be Porky, but the series doesn't really warrant 3 characters sadly.

Donkey Kong needs the Star Fox treatment: Main character, supporting character, villain character. DK, Diddy and K. Rool that is. Dixie wouldn't add too much to the way the series is represented imo, she'd be like adding Krystal to Star Fox, not really needed.

Metroid, oh man, by far the biggest sin on the Brawl roster is that Samus remains alone. Metroid isn't just some low-selling retro franchise on hiatus or w/e, it's a still running and very big franchise. Besides that, without Ridley Samus wouldn't even be a bounty hunter, he's extremely important to the franchise, one could argue that he's the Ganondorf of Metroid. When Mother and FE has 2 reps, and Star Fox has 3, it's just too stupid that Metroid sits at 1 still when it's above all three of those franchises in terms of popularity. Even then, it's Ridley or bust for this series.

Kid Icarus does also need Palutena. They're very much like a team, and though Palutena doesn't really go out and battle alongside Pit, a lot of Uprising is built on their student-mentor relationship as far as I've heard.

With Fire Emblem I'd like something other than a lord. I think a spellcaster to represent is warranted, but the chances look slim and we'll likely end up with just Chrom.

 

[Louie G.]

Completed Series and Series that Need More Representation

I think that you put it very well.
I never really considered Waddle Dee the Toad of Kirby, or Dixie the Krystal of DK, but it makes a lot of sense.
I also agree that Metroid NEEDS Ridley, just as KI needs Palutena and of course, DK needs K. Rool.
Those are three of the most necessary characters to be added into Smash 4 (from already repped franchises that is, as Little Mac is extremely necessary).

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I think that you put it very well.
I never really considered Waddle Dee the Toad of Kirby, or Dixie the Krystal of DK, but it makes a lot of sense.
I also agree that Metroid NEEDS Ridley, just as KI needs Palutena and of course, DK needs K. Rool.
Those are three of the most necessary characters to be added into Smash 4 (from already repped franchises that is, as Little Mac is extremely necessary).

Yeah, Little Mac, Palutena, K. Rool and Ridley are the 4 most important ones indeed, which is why they're considered the most likely ones too I suppose. They're really the only ones I think could be called necessary for proper representation of the franchises, after that I can sit comfortably and know that the roster is just about perfect, at least in my eyes. Though I'd be satisfied with just Ridley myself.

 

[Hippopotasauce]

Every series except FE and DK.

 

[Kapus]

The Mario series has all it really needs (Mario Bros, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi and Wario), but Toad would be nice to have, being the one missing playable character from the group. I'm not exactly sure what Toad could pull off that others can't, but I'm sure someone has thought up a creative moveset for him.

Zelda has the Triforce Trio as well as Toon Link to represent the Toon-styled games. Seems fine to me. Some people suggest Tingle as a 5th character, but I think he works better as an obnoxious assist trophy. Fits his character.

Wariofan put Donkey Kong the best. It needs its main character, supporting character, and its villain. We're just missing K. Rool here, although I wouldn't mind having Dixie Kong as well.

Aside from Ridley, who is pretty much overdue, I can't think of any extra characters that would properly represent the Metroid series. We just need Samus and her nemesis.

Kirby is fine. An extra character like Waddle Dee or Prince Fluff wouldn't hurt, but they're not really necessary. I'd rather this game focus more on unrepped/underrepped series.

Star Fox is in the same boat as Kirby, I think.

Pokemon just needs to advertise whatever is new and popular at the time. I think the Mewtwo deserves to return, though.

Kid Icarus could do with Palutena, probably as a secret character of sorts.


Overall, I think Brawl did a good job at representing most of the series currently in Smash, so SSB4 should start branching out to more unrepresented series for variety.

 

[Seraphim.]

Fire Emblem needs Roy to represent the GBA era.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Fire Emblem needs Roy to represent the GBA era.

Eh, but that won't be a real reason to bring back Roy.

 

[Louie G.]

Fire Emblem needs Roy to represent the GBA era.

I guess you're right. The GBA is home to some of the most beloved and popular FE games out there, and is basically what introduced FE to America.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Since when is series representation important?

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I completely agree with WarioFan's post. I think thats pretty accurate.

Fire Emblem needs Roy to represent the GBA era.

I see this sorta a lot. But if we really need a GBA rep, why the hell does it have to be Roy?

FE6 is the only GBA game that's not international. That would make it a bad choice for representing the GBA era. At least go with Eliwood.

 

[Louie G.]

Since when is series representation important?

It's important that key characters from key franchises are in Smash. I'd rather important and necessary characters get in than say another WTF character.

I see this sorta a lot. But if we really need a GBA rep, why the hell does it have to be Roy?
FE6 is the only GBA game that's not international. That would make it a bad choice for representing the GBA era. At least go with Eliwood.

 

[Seraphim.]

I completely agree with WarioFan's post. I think thats pretty accurate.



I see this sorta a lot. But if we really need a GBA rep, why the hell does it have to be Roy?

FE6 is the only GBA game that's not international. That would make it a bad choice for representing the GBA era. At least go with Eliwood.

It could be anyone, Roy would most likely happen because he's already been in Smash.

 

[SureNsync]

That's the thing.
Some series have a lot of untapped potential, but are too small to warrant those characters (like Mother) or too big to completely rep in Smash (Mario).
I don't believe Mother is complete without villain though. I would love Porky.

The way I see it. Smaller series that has more characters to choose from should be more considered, while bigger series that already has the perfect amount of characters that fully represent their series should be less considered. I'm getting sick of this bigger series are deserving of more characters and smaller series aren't rule.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Idc about series representation. I care about playing as characters I like.

 

[RoysOurBoy]

Mario - Pretty much complete, possibly Toad, I think Paper Mario would count as a spin-off if included
DK - Dixie & K. Rool
Yoshi - Complete
WarioWare - Complete
Zelda - Complete
Metroid - I personally think that Metroid is complete, as Samus represents the solitary aspect of Metroid. Ridley is a major boss of the game, but I feel as if his representation of a boss in Smash is how he is represented in Metroid.
Kid Icarus - Could use Palutena.
Star Fox - Complete.
F-Zero - Complete, only because of the lack of NEW games
Kirby - Complete, Waddle Dee is not needed.
Pikmin - Complete, but if Pikmin 3's trio reappears, there will need to be more representation
Pokemon - Will never be complete, introduce new characters in every game. Mewtwo and Lucario (maybe PKMN Trainer) will represent X/Y.
Fire Emblem - Same as Pokemon. Chrom or Robin will represent Awakening.
Earthbound/Mother - Complete
AC - Complete
Retro Franchises - All will be solo-reps
New Franchises - All will be solo-reps until they become more relevant.
3rd Party Franchises - Will only have one character per company. (Sonic for SEGA, Megaman for Capcom, etc.)

 

[YoshiandToad]

Fire Emblem: Actually I do feel that Roy's inclusion is more than just the representation of the GBA era(although it's a damn good reason to include him);

• His first appearence was Melee. This was the west's introduction to the series, and he and Marth helped the series bloom overseas as a result. I know it wasn't Marth who peaked my personal interest in the series.
• His game was the first to save the franchise from destruction I heard. Before Roy, sales were dropping over in Japan. Awakening is the second great revival for the series.
• Roy was planned for Brawl, and his lack of inclusion was one of Japan's biggest gripes about the game(alongside Mewtwo)

In an ideal world we'd get a Luigified Roy, Marth, Ike(aka; the planned Brawl FE crew) AND an Awakening Rep(Chrom/Robin/Lucina/Maybe Anna).

Mario: Yes, it's obvious how I feel. I think there should ALWAYS be one more Mario character added per game, just because it's the biggest seller, most well recognised franchise on the planet and has a plethora of wacky visually striking characters.

DK: Like many I feel DK needs one or two more characters, and like many it's the same ones.

Kirby: Waddle Dee I'm all for, but maybe in one more Smash game.

Yoshi/Wario: As much as I like the Yoshi and Wario games(and I do; I love Captain Syrup for example) I agree there's no characters within those franchises that need to be added for more representation. Although Wario himself could do with representing a little more Wario Land at times.

Pokemon: Will never ever be complete. Lost cause.

KI: Three games. It's had three games and only one of recent to stop it being dead and no news if it'll carry on getting new games. I'm one of the few who doesn't think Palutena's needed just yet.

F-Zero: Revive this and THEN throw in Goroh and I'm satisfied.

On the subject of series representation:
I can't help but feel series representation is somewhat important; Mario, Pokemon and Zelda/DK are the big sellers, so the more characters from those franchises included the more likely people will want to play the game. You can include as many randoms from lesser known games as you like, but unless it's newcomers people know or care about chances are they won't go over as well.

 

[Louie G.]

Bump.
Because I find this to be very important.
Also it's my thread.

 

[N3ON]

Mario will be complete when we get Toad, which we probably won't ever if we don't this time.

DK will be complete after Dixie and K. Rool.

Zelda is complete, and has been since Melee. All you need is Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf (or Ganon).

Metroid needs some Ridley action.

Yoshi and Wario are so central character focused they could be considered complete.

Kirby is totally fine.

Star Fox needs Krystal to be complete. Hate all you want, but the series dynamic has changed considerably since Adventures (for better or for worse), and she's a large part of the series now.

Pokemon will be complete (as complete as relegating hundreds of characters to a handful of spots) when Mewtwo returns. I'd go on record by saying it'd be complete with just Pikachu, the Trainer, and Mewtwo. The mascot, the protagonist, and the most popular legendary/pseudo antagonist.

F-Zero probably only needs Goroh to be complete. Black Shadow wasn't even really the main villain, but Goroh is the recurring original rival.

Mother could use Ninten now that the other two games both have representation, but that's not going to happen.

Fire Emblem is tricky. Ideally there would be a rep for all the different ages of FE to really represent it best, I'd say the closest we could get to that would be Marth, Roy, Ike, and Chrom (though it's unfortunate how much diversity would be wasted).

Kid Icarus definitely needs Palutena, but I'd also say it would need Medusa before being complete.

Pikmin... as long as the Pikmin have a large role in the movesets of the characters, I'd say it's complete. It never really has been about the captains. That said, Olimar is a must.

Animal Crossing is pretty complete considering how central the Villager is, but Tom Nook wouldn't hurt.

Wii Fit is complete as it's ever going to be.

Retros are very rarely in a position where there series is fleshed out past their protagonist, so they're fine.

As for third-parties... past Sonic and Mega Man, anything more is superfluous.


And for Nintendo as a whole, it's got pretty much all its staples already included, but, as much as I really don't care to see them, the Miis have been such a central figure in Nintendo's recent years that they should be implemented in some regard.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I don't think the Pikmin series is complete without Alph. For sure he's one of those last minute semi-clones planned.

 

[Louie G.]

I think that Fire Emblem can be complete this way:

Marth- Legacy character. Represents the series as a whole.

Ike- One of the most popular lords, especially in the West. Also lord in 2 games, nobody else has done this besides Marth I believe.

Lyn- Represents the GBA era, which popularized Fire Emblem in the West. Also a female, which is the deciding factor between her and Roy.

Chrom- The most recent lord. Enough said really.

 

[LoneKonWolf]

I believe that all fire emblem needs is the main lord (marth), that's really it, the rest are just extras

 

[BluePikmin11]

I believe that all fire emblem needs is the main lord (marth), that's really it, the rest are just extras

Maybe Anna also since she's real important to the series to a moderate extent, because of that I won't have to be worried of her being cut in future installments.

 

[Shorts]

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser,
DK, Diddy, Dixie, K Rool
Yoshi, Kamek
Wario, Syrup, Mona/Ashley/JimmyT
Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Tingle
Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, Bandana
Samus, Ridley
Captain Falcon, Samurai Goroh, Black Shadow
Fox, Wolf, Krystal
Pit, Palutena, Medusa
Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer
Marth, Ike, Chrom

These are needed to "complete" a franchise IMO

 

[Louie G.]

Here is what I think Mario needs to be as close to complete as possible, since Mario has so many characters. Note that it will likely take at least 2 games to get this.

Mario- You all know why.
Luigi-^^^^
Peach-^^^^
Bowser-^^^^
Toad- Toad is not only an important character, but is needed to complete Mario's "Big 8" and to finish off the 5 original Super Mario Bros characters.
Rosalina- This one is more arguable, but I can explain. The Galaxy series/Mario's Wii era is an important part of Mario's history, and brought big change. Rosalina can represent this important time period for Mario.
Paper Mario- Simply to represent the RPGs, which I find to be a big part of Mario.

Honorable Mentions:

Bowser Jr.- Unnecessary really, when you consider the fact that Mario already has it's main villain represented, so a second isn't needed but would be welcome.
Waluigi- Spin off representation. Unnecessary but I would love it.
Dr. Mario- Was unnecessary to begin with. I still love him though, and he was in Melee, so...

 

[N3ON]

Since Rosalina has had all of five (six?) appearances, and the Mario series consists of what, like 300 games, she wouldn't be integral to completing the series by any stretch of the imagination. Should she continue to keep making high-profile appearances (preferably playable ones) in high-profile Mario games that might change down the line, but right now we already have the core four with the only other character major enough for the series to feel incomplete without is Toad, and I'm sure some people would even debate that.