Competitive Sonic Impressions Post-Release

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

It was during the stream where Zero basically said to Twitch (A fellow Sonic main) that he believes Sonic is godly. But all the Sonics I saw him play weren't using the advanced techs we've come to use like ASCC. I think the reason he believes this is because he lost to a Sonic a few times during his streaming.

Then there is M2K who thinks everyone is op and needs a nerf. I never really pay him any mind nowadays. This isn't bashing but he likes to whine a lot from personal experience.

@Zipzo I also noticed that you like to use Bair to get your kills. Which is cool that's how Brawl Sonic plays. I'd try Up throw into Spring Up Air. I've never seen you do it yet. I'm pretty sure it'll land since I see so much hit stun after it. Fair seems like it'll kill off stage too. Just some suggestions. Hopefully it'll help with getting the kills.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

he was beginning to use Uthrow spring uair towards the end of his matches.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

Oh I didn't see the end. Probably why I missed it. Disregard that then haha.

 

[PsychoSy]

Hey Zipzo, been watching your stream. Enjoying it, went through a good deal of your archive, just wanted to pass on a third party perspective. Keep in mind, totally know i may sound ignorant but just some ideas:

1) Down Smash seems like a very viable move near the edge when they're knocked off, but if you look at the stream you literally go for it EVERY time they get knocked off. Once they see it, every single opponent(or most at least) Has pretty much expected you to go for it before they jump back on and try to kill you.
2) You rack up damage real well, but I'm noticing, you're relying on Back air and the tilts for the knockback. a lot of your opponents hit you with a smash attack and knock you off much earlier than you do. The Mario did it at the right time as well. I understand, it's much harder because of the lack of c-stick, but I do think that if you started using smashes more at higher percentages like your opponents were, you'd be getting those kills.
3) You said earlier you were spamming spin a lot. I think that's true, just because after a while I just knew exactly when you were going to go into a spin. The Link you fought and a few other chars saw that and immediately just waited for the spin before you attacked. I think the times when you're racking up so much damage, they don't know what button you're pressing and it's unpredictable WHEN you're charging. If they know your'e running, they just stand there and stick out a button while you take the damage and run off. If that makes any sense.

Anyway, Sonic seems like a viable char, and I hope I don't come off like a massive douche. Just an outsiders perspective! And constructive feedback!

Also, can anybody link me to where exactly M2K and Zero said those things about Sonic?

http://www.twitch.tv/zero/b/568266686 he says it at around 35:02:03 and then he starts demonstrating something new on sonic that he thinks the reason why he's the best character in the game at around 35:06:18

 

[Sonic Orochi]

http://www.twitch.tv/zero/b/568266686 he says it at around 35:02:03 and then he starts demonstrating something new on sonic that he thinks the reason why he's the best character in the game at around 35:06:18

Well, jumping around while charging SD does look like a lot of fun. On one hand we lose our ASCSC pressure but on the other hand, we get this. I think I'm okay with this.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I appreciate the advice haha, and yes I did hit a small wall on my previous stream but my win ratio is at least still positive.

I'm learning a lot from folks in my chat as well as I play and I really think I have what it takes to be a good Sonic main, and the folks have done well to keep my motivation and confidence running high.

My main focus right now is on being less predictable with spins and abusing my ftilt a lot more. Also, going deep on the off-stage game (which is something were all still getting used to experimenting with). Finally, what I really need is to keep playing and forming good habits, sonic is so fundamentally different from other characters so I didn't expect to be a pro after one stream .

I caught Zero online as Bowser and beat him though!

 

[WedginatorX]

My roommate and I are trying to get the full japanese version so i'm working on being able to play this game. All I know so far is from my experience with the WiiU demo and the few videos of sonic players on the 3ds demo i've been able to watch. Who/what streams should I be watching if I want some *decent* Sonic footage.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I feel like people who are bothering to say "oh ___ is really OP or ____ is top tier" are wasting their time. This game hasn't even been out for a full week IN JAPAN, let alone worldwide. Once the rest of the world receives the game then we can start talking tiers and even then that won't happen for at least a good month or too definitely the first tier list won't be out before the wii u version.

 

[Espy Rose]

As long as you stop spring dair-ing, you're on the road to becoming efficient. It was sketchy but decent in Brawl, and now it's almost lots any utility it had in Smash 4.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

As long as you stop spring dair-ing, you're on the road to becoming efficient. It was sketchy but decent in Brawl, and now it's almost lots any utility it had in Smash 4.

Haha, I was never Sonic in Brawl so I never went through that phase in the first place .

Respect to your Sonic, Espy . I watched a lot of you to prepare for Smash 4. Would love some training from you eventually once you become acquainted with the game!

By the way I was testing dair with a jump off stage in order to return afterward and it simply does not work in Smash 4 Unless I'm doing it wrong and everyone meant to use it when you are knocked in the air with your jump still available?

My roommate and I are trying to get the full japanese version so i'm working on being able to play this game. All I know so far is from my experience with the WiiU demo and the few videos of sonic players on the 3ds demo i've been able to watch. Who/what streams should I be watching if I want some *decent* Sonic footage.

I am currently maining Sonic right off release and I am streaming mostly For Glory matches on my stream using him only.

I am not a professional (nobody is yet at Smash 4) but many have expressed that they see my potential to become a formidable Sonic. Plus my chat is super chill and according to my viewers the "best quality" FPS of all available streams. Check me out when I stream!

www.twitch.tv/zipzo62

 

[PsychoSy]

I appreciate the advice haha, and yes I did hit a small wall on my previous stream but my win ratio is at least still positive.

I'm learning a lot from folks in my chat as well as I play and I really think I have what it takes to be a good Sonic main, and the folks have done well to keep my motivation and confidence running high.

My main focus right now is on being less predictable with spins and abusing my ftilt a lot more. Also, going deep on the off-stage game (which is something were all still getting used to experimenting with). Finally, what I really need is to keep playing and forming good habits, sonic is so fundamentally different from other characters so I didn't expect to be a pro after one stream .

I caught Zero online as Bowser and beat him though!

I'm on the same boat as well on maining sonic since I didn't have the chance to test my limits as sonic in brawl because wifi went obselete for wii (Don't have anyone near me to play local Battles). So now I have a chance on the 3DS and then soon on the Wii U online.

 

[Espy Rose]

Send me a link to your stream and I'll check it out whenever I can, Zip.
I won't be having any of the games on hand until the WiiU NA version is released, which will be awhile. I still need to be checking out stuff anyways to understand the game better. A friend has the japanese Smash, and a few will be getting the 3DS version in October, but I'm just gonna wait it out.

Your stream'll probably be the best bet for a Sonic feed information dump. Plus, I've always enjoyed talking to other Sonics about their gameplay.

 

[VegaPunk]

Sonic is gonna be one of my mains this Smash<3

 

[Camalange]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2ghp3j/the_thread_that_has_a_bunch_of_things_you_should/

24: You can grab opponents out of their recoveries and let them fall to their deaths.

Can anyone confirm this? If so, at least Sonic (and Snake only in Brawl lol gg RIP) isn't the only one who suffers from this now.

 

[WaveDashCash]

My experience with Sonic in brawl (competitive noob):

 

[Falsh]

Does anyone know if you can aerial down B to shield?

 

[infomon]

That's called ASC shield-cancel (Aerial spin charge (ie. down-b) shield cancel) and it is apparently not in smash4.

Just mentioning the alternate name in case you see it mentioned in this thread or around the boards.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Unlocked all of Sonic's custom moves finally, going to do some testing and I'll post my impression on their viability/usefulness (if any) when I get the appropriate amount of use on them.

 

[Chis]

So jab locks are in this game (saw a Mario do it in a video). So how good is Sonic's this time around? Does the set up still work? Can he ZSS people?

 

[Camalange]

Jab lock seems to work on the same principle from what I can tell in the demo. I could use fireballs with Mario to get the same result. If someone could test jab lock with Sonic that'd be super awesome. Especially the classic ROB set-up, and seeing if it can be applied to other characters this time around, as Chis suggested.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im deliberately avoiding most sonic info these days. I want to build my version of this character from the ground up

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm looking at the information myself and taking it in, but I'm still going to play however I feel comfortable regardless.

 

[CryoGX]

Ah, this thread is great news :D Now I don't need a huge competitive Melee-related rebalancing mod to be able to show my opponents my true sanic stylse. (I know exactly what I typed there)


Mainly waiting on custom moves at this point; really hyped to see what variations they have for down/side B (I'm not one for abbreviations, because holy crap, that amount of abbreviations)

 

[Deleted member 245254]

The most useful custom moves Sonic has are his #3 ^ + b and his #3 > + b.

The ^ + B custom adds a hit box on Sonic's head as he shoots up, and if any part of your ascent connects with your opponent, your ascent will be doubled that of a normal spring jump. The only actual difference is that if you use the spring from the ground, the spring will not remain on the stage for you to bounce on, which nobody really cares much about anyhow...so IMO this custom is pretty much a given on any custom set unless you have a thing for the double spring half-jump thing.

His > + B custom makes his initial bounce arc higher, and if your descent hits your opponent you will ground stick them, after which you can jump cancel your dash and use a fully charged smash attack on them. It's quite neat, and the new arc can be tougher to gauge than the original arc, haven't tested if it keeps its invincibility.

These two moves are the most useful of Sonic's customs I have found.

Also, today while streaming, I have discovered I have a severe weakness to Duck Hunt Dog when played by a relatively good player. The amount of projectiles makes spinning unsafe, and the priority and range on his hitboxes in close range is downright scary and ridiculous. I have a lot of practice to do against DHD. It is my opinion that he is one of Sonic's toughest match ups (if not the toughest).

 

[Espy Rose]

The Spring sticking onstage is pretty important for several setups in Brawl that I don't think have been lost in the transition. For example, it'll still cripple a KO'd Olimar if you do it right.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

The Spring sticking onstage is pretty important for several setups in Brawl that I don't think have been lost in the transition. For example, it'll still cripple a KO'd Olimar if you do it right.

I don't really find all too often that skilled opponents let themselves sit idly in the air for you to do a full bounce and come back up to them after dropping to your spring. In any case, off-stage play IMO is key to cutting matches down shorter and safer in Smash 4, and custom #3 comes out as having utility in that department, while the utility of the stage spring lacks that kind of on-demand utility.

The spring itself can still gimp using #3.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'll withhold further discussion until I actually get the game, if only because I fervently disagree with you.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'll withhold further discussion until I actually get the game, if only because I fervently disagree with you.

If ya can't gimp or edge guard nearly perfectly, ya gonna have a bad time with Sonic. That's all I can tell ya. I'm not saying the spring on the stage has zero utility, I'm just saying the function of the custom move tends to have more immediate on-the-surface benefits to edge guarding.

In general he has a couple of tools to deal with edge guarding well in Smash 4, a well placed bair, or a spring gimp. There's also his spike which is downright dangerous and pretty difficult to ensure will even execute properly without dying (I believe the spike hit box is only active at the beginning of the move, after some testing but still not 100% sure), so I don't really often resort to it unless I'm going for a suicide kill. This custom move adds an extreme amount of flexibility to be able to spring gimp.

The spring on the stage falls pretty short of that kind of utility.

What do you mean by "cripple" a KO'd Olimar anyway? Do you mean gimp his recovery? Recoveries are so generous that characters with float-like recoveries can afford to drop low before coming back, making off-stage spring jump kills essentially a rarity against skilled opponents. Olimar also has a changed recovery as well.

 

[Espy Rose]

No, I don't mean that.

And this sounds just like Brawl Sonic, the shortcomings and all.
Sacrificing UpB for the sake of this new one just doesn't look to be worth it all things considered.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

No, I don't mean that.

And this sounds just like Brawl Sonic, the shortcomings and all.
Sacrificing UpB for the sake of this new one just doesn't look to be worth it all things considered.

Well, what things considered ? You don't really lose the most meaningful parts of the move...so it's not really a "sacrifice"...more of a trade...

And then yea...Smash 4 is pretty different from Brawl...

 

[ROOOOY!]

24: You can grab opponents out of their recoveries and let them fall to their deaths.

I'm sure I did it to megaman (on the demo). Maybe it was the CPU being a derp but IDK. First post on sm4sh boards, get me.

 

[LuffyLink]

I don't play smash competitively but I'm glad that sonic is stronger than before!

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

got the chance yesterday to play the japanese version of smash at GUTS 3 ad i gotta say sonic's bair feels so powerful now as an offstage tool. That and sadly sonics's spin dash while your jumping around charging doesn't retain an active hitbox everytime you land and jump nor does it have any hitbox at all the first time you jump. He also can't VSDJ out of down B. i could still used HA to Up-B to recover but you need to be slightly abovethe ledges height in order to do so. That and Nair for the most part seems unchanged in KO power.

Was slightly difficult to test his grab game due to the fact the persons XL i played it on had a messed up R button and i didn't want to remap controls. But over all A LOT of sonic's core tricks are still there (couldn't try spiinshooting due to the button mapping) so us brawl sonic veterans hould feel right at home.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You can jump around while charging side b.

For the most part nair doesn't have any kill power until sudden death-like %ages. It's more for ending/beginning strings.

Homing attack > Up + B probably isn't ever necessary as recovery is so easy in Smash 4. In fact homing attack has a nasty habit of shooting you to your death if you use it off-stage improperly.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

yea it happened to me Once due to in brawl i would use Homing Attack as a means to gain some slightly horizontal distance. Although it isn't really needed now due to us not having to worry about people grabbing the ledge.

Although i can't get the feeling of how good Bair is out of my head, It's safe on block, hits for more damage and looks to have slightly faster startup and longer active hitbox. I'm fine with it having increased landing lag if it's able to hit someone blocking and they can't punish me for it which was happening often. Although one thing i will say is playing vs the fire flower rosalina costume with a white luma on Magicant while the 3D is turned off makes it really hard to distinguish where luma and sometimes rosalina are due to their bodies sometimes blending in with the backgrounds mix of colors mostly when the camera pans out although i'm sure once i get my copy i'll get more accustomed to it.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

yea it happened to me Once due to in brawl i would use Homing Attack as a means to gain some slightly horizontal distance. Although it isn't really needed now due to us not having to worry about people grabbing the ledge.

Although i can't get the feeling of how good Bair is out of my head, It's safe on block, hits for more damage and looks to have slightly faster startup and longer active hitbox. I'm fine with it having increased landing lag if it's able to hit someone blocking and they can't punish me for it which was happening often. Although one thing i will say is playing vs the fire flower rosalina costume with a white luma on Magicant while the 3D is turned off makes it really hard to distinguish where luma and sometimes rosalina are due to their bodies sometimes blending in with the backgrounds mix of colors mostly when the camera pans out although i'm sure once i get my copy i'll get more accustomed to it.

Oh yeah dude. I could make a video with all my awesome bairs I've landed on stream. Just non-stop bairs for 5 minutes, lmao.

The lightning effect when you know it's a kill, and the thunder-like sound effect in Smash 4 for contact makes it feel all the more satisfying.

Off-stage bairs are by far one of the most fun moves to land.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Though i didn't get to try out sonic's Up tilt, i wanted to see at what % it KO's and how well it connects as in brawl the reason the move wasn't good for kills was due to how easy it was to escape the 2nd hit that could KO, and now that multi-hit moves are harder to escape as well as there now being pivot canceling i feel sonic could run pivot cancel utilt for kills now or atleast attempt to use Utilt either a proper spot dodge punisher or anti air.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Also, today while streaming, I have discovered I have a severe weakness to Duck Hunt Dog when played by a relatively good player. The amount of projectiles makes spinning unsafe, and the priority and range on his hitboxes in close range is downright scary and ridiculous. I have a lot of practice to do against DHD. It is my opinion that he is one of Sonic's toughest match ups (if not the toughest).

HA seems to lock on the disk projectile, it seems.

@6:06, 6:47, 9:24

No idea how useful/bad it can be, though.

I also realized how difficult it was for him to land the Dair spike. Oh well.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

What do you mean by "cripple" a KO'd Olimar anyway? Do you mean gimp his recovery? Recoveries are so generous that characters with float-like recoveries can afford to drop low before coming back, making off-stage spring jump kills essentially a rarity against skilled opponents. Olimar also has a changed recovery as well.

I think he's referring to the setup of after killing Olimar on a stage like Battlefield where the middle platform sits very high and right below the respawn spot, you plant a spring there so Olimar is forced into the air when respawning. This was a pretty common Brawl tactic I believe. He can't pluck pikmin in the air and is at a huge disadvantage. I heard Olimar's whistle doesn't have the same properties anymore also, so this becomes that much more useful. Springs are definitely a valued option in a few scenarios.

I don't really see the point of the custom up b. I believe you can't act out of it as fast as the normal, because of the hitbox and you only get the added height when connecting. Seems like a poor tradeoff. I'm curious about the side b though. If it pounds them into the ground during the arc down, you should test it offstage to see if it spikes. Would be a lot more effective than the d-air spike.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

If it pounds them into the ground during the arc down, you should test it offstage to see if it spikes. Would be a lot more effective than the d-air spike.

Doesn't seem to spike.